Topic: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating  (Read 103100 times)

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Drake

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2015, 02:18:33 am »
The closest is probably the rabbits making dango in CiLR. I doubt they make all the meals though, since it was a special occasion.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2015, 05:14:47 am »
Can someone read this and this and tell me if it's how Sagume's ability actually works? I can't seem to wrap my head around it and I haven't read any of her dialogue or bio to know if it's true or not. (It's in Japanese)
Seems a lot more complicated than 'things become opposite'

edit: read bio, explains more, seems like a good way of explaining things?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 05:21:49 am by Меа »
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kevin1127

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2015, 05:58:07 am »
if it's how Sagume's ability actually works? I can't seem to wrap my head around it and I haven't read any of her dialogue or bio to know if it's true or not. (It's in Japanese)
Seems a lot more complicated than 'things become opposite'

I can't read Japanese... but based on the picture, I think it's a good explanation...
But yes, Kishin's ability is more complicated than it seems. It's definitely more than just "things going opposite"

My own interpretation, in the simplest way, is:
For example, Reimu is having a danmaku battle with Marisa, and now Reimu is DEFINITELY (WITH 100%) going to beat Marisa (just an example, didn't mean to discuss something starts with p- )
And all of a sudden, Kishin says something about this battle (something = ANYTHING, whether it's "Marisa is going to win" or "Reimu is going to win", the result will be the same), and then the outcome of this fight goes to opposite
The orginal result is: Reimu won (to make thing easier, let's say 100% winning chance)
After Kishin used her ability, the result becomes opposite, which is now: Marisa won (100% chance)
And then Marisa won

But I can not explain the following:
1. How is this related to her "plan" in LoLK? (I kind of have some ideas, but I can't make those ideas straight)
2. Does thinking or writing make her use her ability?

Drake

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2015, 06:14:10 am »
(@kevin: I don't think that's an appropriate scenario to talk about in being 100% certain of something, since even if you assume a normal outcome would be 100% Reimu winning, if Sagume's ability changes that, literally anything else could happen as long as it isn't Reimu winning. Also, your answer to #2 is "no and probably no").

This artist gave a very good explanation, although again it's in Japanese.
http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=52301293
(also the artist's other work is very nsfw)

It's also something I expect people will have tons of trouble with now and into the future, since it's been confused ever since the game came out. People seem to think that the reverse of her words must come true, which is not the case.

Yes, I think the explanation you link to explains her ability quite well. I'll summarize it for other people.

  • With a bag of 9 blue beads and 1 red bead, there is a 90% chance to pull a blue. Sagume saying "I will pull a blue" reverses this scenario, and there will be a 90% chance of pulling the red instead.
  • However, this is because each event of "pulling a blue" has reversed to another option of "pulling a red", and the event of "pulling a red" has reversed to another option of "pulling a blue", not because her words were reversed.
  • If Sagume thinks "I will pull a blue", nothing will happen.
  • If Sagume says [to something unrelated] "I will pull a blue", her power will be weakened or not work.
  • If Sagume says [to the bag / etc] "I will pull a blue", the result will be 90% red.
  • Because it's each event that is changed and not her words, whether she says "I will pull a red" or "I will pull a blue", the outcome is still 90% red and 10% blue.
  • If she pulls out a bead without looking and says "I will pull a blue", the event of her pulling a bead has already happened and is absolute, so her ability does not work.
  • If the bag instead contains all blue beads, even if she says "I will pull a blue", she will still pull a blue. However, something else could happen that prevents her from pulling a bead altogether!
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 07:05:00 am by Drake »

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kevin1127

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2015, 06:25:00 am »
I don't think that's an appropriate scenario to talk about in being 100% certain of something, since even if you assume a normal outcome would be 100% Reimu winning, if Sagume's ability changes that, literally anything else could happen as long as it isn't Reimu winning.
Oh yeah....you are right.
Is it better if I added "assume there are only two possible outcomes: Reimu won or Marisa won" ?

Leon゠Helsing

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2015, 07:33:12 am »
So let's say that Sagume verbally denies commiting a crime which the evidence proves that she is indeed innocent, would she just get convicted regardless of the evidence while the evidence itself remains unchanged?

Mеа

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2015, 07:43:55 am »
Oh ok I think I finally get it. Whenever Sagume mentions any ongoing event at all, regardless of her stance on it, it's the event that will twist to manifest a negation of its original untampered outcome. In any way shape or form. Agh that's complex to think about.

So let's say that Sagume denies commiting a crime which the evidence proves that she is indeed innocent, would she just get convicted regardless of the evidence while the evidence itself remains unchanged?
Suppose the original untampered outcome of this event is that the court would have found her innocent (ie: where she says nothing and doesn't use her ability at all) . If she at all mentions anything about this process, whether "I hope I'm found innocent" or "the final verdict will be 'guilty'", etc, then the original outcome will be be twisted to become its opposite, she will be found guilty. And I think, correct me, depending on what aspect of this process she mentions, it might allow for even greater possibilities of any event that would negate the court finding her innocent. Like the court spontaneously combusting, or Sagume just suddenly dropping dead.

Edit: I forgot to answer the original question, yes the evidence will not change at all. She can't change or rewrite the present reality, she can only effect a twist of the future into the opposite of its original outcome.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 07:49:48 am by Меа »
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Drake

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2015, 08:20:40 am »
To note, "I hope I'm found innocent" or "the final verdict will be 'guilty'" are both phrases that would probably activate her power, but I think the original phrasing of "I did not commit the crime" would not.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2015, 08:50:59 am »
The closest is probably the rabbits making dango in CiLR. I doubt they make all the meals though, since it was a special occasion.
So there's no real answer? As i excepted. My headcanon:
Eirin sometimes does the cooking, but she is busy most of the time, so Reisen usually does the cooking, with or without the help of the rabbits, but when shes not available just the rabbits do it.
Ironically, Kaguya is actually the best at cooking in Eientei, but she never cooks due to laziness.
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Biakmon

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #39 on: September 09, 2015, 12:34:14 pm »
Hecatia's ability allows her to exist on Earth, the Moon, and the Spirit World all at once.

Does that mean there one Hecatia on Earth, one on the Moon and one in the Spirit world which live simultaneously?
Meaning that there may be 3 different Hecatia which can live at any given times, correct?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 12:41:32 pm by Biakmon »

Kaizaki

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #40 on: September 09, 2015, 12:51:01 pm »
Ironically, Kaguya is actually the best at cooking in Eientei, but she never cooks due to laziness.
She's actually pretty terrible at it, according to Inaba & Inaba, making it somewhat canon (I blame it on her upbringing).

I know it's a headcanon, but it's a fun thing to point out.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #41 on: September 09, 2015, 01:02:32 pm »
Sagume properly introduces herself and even explain how her ability works. Even by doing so, it's not like her name became something other than Sagume nor did her ability change. I guess her ability doesn't affect some facts. Her ability will make sure that if there are a lot of possibilities for something, the one that Sagume verbally picked wouldn't happen, and the opposite will be more likely ; and if there were no other possibilities, nothing would happen. If she said that a cat that just passed by was a cat, it won't magically transform into a dog. Her ability seems to make all the coincidences happens in order to prove her wrong and make the opposite of the thing she said happen. It's a bit weird since she'll have to accurately know what'll happen in the future in order to use her ability very well... even if she guessed wrong, I guess her ability wouldn't overwrite the chance of unrelated things to happen

Drake

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #42 on: September 09, 2015, 02:28:27 pm »
uhh you kind of just described the exact misinterpretation of her ability that we're talking about

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2015, 04:41:25 am »
She's actually pretty terrible at it, according to Inaba & Inaba, making it somewhat canon (I blame it on her upbringing).
Oh, well thanks for pointing that out for me. I guess the best cook there is probably Eirin, because she's the brain of the moon and all that jazz, but enough of my stupid headcanon. Back to the questions and answers!
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Biakmon

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2015, 12:10:49 am »
Hecatia's ability allows her to exist on Earth, the Moon, and the Spirit World all at once.

- Does that mean there is one Hecatia on Earth, one on the Moon and one in the Spirit world which can live simultaneously?

- Which touhou character(s) has been shown to have both 'animal' ear with 'human' ear apart from Orin (Rin Kaenbyou)?

kevin1127

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2015, 03:39:50 am »
I have some questions about Touhoucon, but I really have no idea where to ask so I will put this right here.
I apologize is this is not a right place to ask.

I have never been to Touhoucon before, is this something similar to Reitaisai and Comiket?
I expect something like different circles put their booths and people randomly come and visit (like those two events above)
But it looks like something different
Can someone explain how Touhoucon work?

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2015, 06:05:47 am »
- Which touhou character(s) has been shown to have both 'animal' ear with 'human' ear apart from Orin (Rin Kaenbyou)?
Is this even canon? Did ZUN mention anything about this? Seems like a slip of the mind, really.
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Drake

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2015, 09:10:48 am »
Is this even canon? Did ZUN mention anything about this? Seems like a slip of the mind, really.
I don't think there's a single appearance when she doesn't have both. Even if it wasn't intentional there's no stopping it. Less controversial than Momiji not/having wolf ears, at least.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2015, 07:00:17 am »
Who are some of the more childishly naive, pure, and/or innocent of the touhous (or can be interpreted as such)? The fairies or Youmu first come to mind. Fairies, because they're essentially child-like sprites of nature. Youmu is portrayed as pretty naive, but she has a certain steeliness and coldness to her. I guess Sukuna?
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2015, 03:13:26 am »
Who are some of the more childishly naive, pure, and/or innocent of the touhous (or can be interpreted as such)? The fairies or Youmu first come to mind. Fairies, because they're essentially child-like sprites of nature. Youmu is portrayed as pretty naive, but she has a certain steeliness and coldness to her. I guess Sukuna?
Chen comes to mind in terms of "Childishy Naive", but sometimes fandom over exaggerates her and adds the "pure" part to her. Flandre is sometimes depicted in fandom as being naive of her destruction (Don't think this is the case in canon, but she barely shows up in canon anyways.), almost never pure or innocent, however (that i know of). I guess Rumia might count as being naive too, she does look and act young. Relimia looks like a young girl, but she doesn't come out to me as being very naive, pure, or innocent. Koishi is diffidently childish and naive, and probably kind of innocent. Hata no Kokoro is the only one i think that fits all 3 of the things you said, but i could be wrong. Also there are the earth rabbits (non-youkai, Tewi is differently NOT innocent, pure, or naive). Finally there's Rin and Utsuho, who both come out to me as being childish, despite Utsuho's some what mature appearance, but she's diffiently naive, maybe not too innocent however, as she almost destoryed everything with her atomic powers, Rin might be innocent, but then again she does like corpses.......
Oh, and cirno and the three fairies, not pure or innocent however.
Yeah, not alot of innocent or pure (unless you count lunarians) touhous, the only REALLY innocent one imo is Sukuna, maybe i'm wrong, but thats how it seems to me.

Anyways, branching out your question a fair bit to focus on immature in terms of a stereotypical teen toehoes, because i'm bored, Reimu (and Marisa too, i guess.) in WAHH is pretty childish, but in most other canonical works, she's...i guess about a late teen or young adult. Also, i feel that Youmu is also about a young teen in terms of maturity, as she seems to be about or under the same age as reimu and marisa. However, the most "immature teen" touhou character is differently Tenshi. She's practically a entitled rich kid!
God, i ramble so much. Sorry if this was long winded, i was bored.

edit: Also, while i mostly stayed off PC-89 characters, i should point out that PC-89 Reimu comes out as being Naive and pretty Innocent as well. Also Yuyuko has an (IMO) stereotypical entitled teen exterior, but inside she's probably about as smart and cunning as Yukari.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 03:27:36 am by the old guy »
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SerB18

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2015, 10:54:14 am »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5F8vS51_BQ
Does anybody know what game this is and where can I download it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arP-F04ruEk
as well as this one and its particular built, thanks in advance!

Kaizaki

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2015, 02:25:43 am »
In Magic Team's Extra dialogue in IN, Mokou is known for saying immediately before the battle that,

"The Hourai Elixir is a forbidden medicine that should never be consumed by humans. With a single touch, you will never become an adult. With a second touch, you will forget all disease and illness. With a third touch... Your souls will forever churn in torment!"

In other teams' scenarios, she also says flowery things:

"The guts of this trial are the smoke of Mount Fuji. The eternal volcanic ash, reaching to the moon. An ever-resurrecting immortal bird, born from unextinguishable flames. A legendary phoenix, growing in strength with each rebirth. The bullets of this evening will be the young lady's eternal trauma."

"Ghosts who have forgotten nirvana cannot be reborn. A human who cannot die will not know the vivid Netherworld. As one really lives, lives, lives, she doesn't know the start of life. As one really dies, dies, dies, she doesn't know the end or death. As I do not know death, I have surpassed that darkness. See this beautiful danmaku, unchained from the dark samsara!"

And an allusion to a legend (Ichijou Returning Bridge):

"If you don't go all out, it's game over for your life. There's no turning back now. It's a one-way street in the dead of night. Just what you wanted. Allow me to test your guts!"

That said, given the context, was her quote about the three tastes of the Elixir figurative or literal? In my view, Mokou was just being Mokou and dramatic. I'm aware that there may not be a definite answer, but I'd still like to hear others' opinions.

Cheers in advance!
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2015, 04:20:56 am »
I find it interesting that all three of those tastes are worded negatively. 'You can longer reach adulthood' as opposed to 'you will have eternal youth'. That she precedes the second  '...forget illness' with this seems to me to imply that she considers this as something negative, or at least inhuman. Especially since the third one is also definitely bad. '〜も忘れる' would argue in favor of this, since it shows these aren't isolated events.
A nuance lost in that particular translation of the third taste is that she says "your souls [too] will forever churn in torment", as in this is what Mokou is already experiencing and two more will join her if they also taste the elixir for a third time.
Though speaking of translations, here is that third taste phrase:
お前達も永遠の苦輪に悩むがいい
The one you have is clear and convenient though I wonder if it's necessarily accurate. 苦輪 apparently refers to the cycle of life and rebirth from Buddhism and how the pains, suffering, worries, losses, struggles, etc never go away because life continuously dips back into them with each new cycle of life. The literal kanji is suffering-cycle/wheel, which analogues the wheels on a cart and how it always keeps turning. 悩む means to be troubled in thought about, to be distressed, concerned, ill at mind about, etc. So what she may be saying is that they too will be disquieted by the eternal cycle of suffering and pain. I imagine it to be like a kind of eureka moment, except one of horror and comprehension. A kind of trying to measure eternity, if you will. Like being lost at sea in a storm or heavy mist and then it suddenly lifting and realizing that there's nothing in any direction as far as the eye can see. Horror, because there's nothing, comprehension because in Mokou's case, there will always be nothing as far as the eye can see. She'll always be a little boat rocked by waves and storms with the occasional calms, and this thought is what she says third tasters will have to agonize over.
(Side note: 永遠の苦輪, not 永遠に悩む, though the 'forever' part may be implied, it's not an explicit foregone conclusion. For all we know, she did agonize over this but has since come to peace with it. I assume CiLR or something would shed light on this, I need to go read those)
So to me, I find those three tastes as rather a progression of her realizations as a hourai being. She knew upon drinking that she would never die, but never knew specific details about it. Maybe after a year, she realizes she's not aging. After another year, she realizes she hasn't caught a cold at all. And after years of wandering around aimlessly living from meal to meal, she realizes that this cycle is going to continue forever.
And also because I find it doesn't make too much sense. Do people have to taste her liver three times too to get the whole hourai package?

Edit: on second thought, 悩む here probably means that this situation is actively tormenting her (and hence the translation). Though I think some of my reasoning still somewhat valid, and as background information.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 04:30:35 am by Меа »
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Biakmon

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #53 on: September 16, 2015, 11:38:52 am »
- Can someone knowledgeable on japanese linguistic confirm/verify the accuracy of those particular translations, please.

Hecatia Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom - omake.txt

-1 また、月、地球、異界には地獄も存在し、コアとなる魂は地獄にある為、
  敵としてみると中々まともに手が出せない厄介な神様。
  ちなみに夢の世界は異界に相当する。

- Also, since the Moon, Earth, and Spirit World each have their own Hell, and her core soul resides in Hell,
she's a rather troublesome god who can't easily be retaliated against if viewed as an enemy.
The Dream World falls under 'Otherworlds', by the way.

- Also when did the Moon, Earth, and Spirit World have their own respectively Hell? (I thought their was only one hell for all of them...)

Junko Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom - omake.txt

-2 彼女は月の民、嫦娥(じょうが)に強い怨みを持っていた。
  詳しいことはゲームの一部エンディングと被るので省くが、
  繰り返し月の都を襲っては、賢者に怒りを静められる存在だったようだ。
  夫に息子を殺された、と言うのが最初の怨みだが、既に怨みは純化し、
  一人歩きしている様だ。

- She had a deep grudge against Chang'e, one of the Moon's people.
Details are included in one of the game's endings, so things will be kept brief here,
but it seems that she calmed her rage against the sages by repeatedly attacking the Lunar Capital.
Her first grudge came about when her husband killed her child, but said grudge has already been purified
to the point where her anger stands on its own.

-3 嫦娥とは、今作品には出てこないが月の都に幽閉された、月の女神である。
  月の兎の支配者でもあり、強大な力を持っているが、表に出ることは無い。
  嫦娥は蓬莱の薬を使った罪人であるのだ。

- Chang'e doesn't appear in the game itself, but she's a goddess of the moon imprisoned in the Lunar Capital.
She rules over the moon rabbits and is extremely powerful, but she doesn't show herself publicly.
She is also a criminal who drank the Hourai Elixir.

Clarste

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #54 on: September 17, 2015, 12:02:40 am »
- Can someone knowledgeable on japanese linguistic confirm/verify the accuracy of those particular translations, please.

Hecatia Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom - omake.txt

-1 また、月、地球、異界には地獄も存在し、コアとなる魂は地獄にある為、
  敵としてみると中々まともに手が出せない厄介な神様。
  ちなみに夢の世界は異界に相当する。

- Also, since the Moon, Earth, and Spirit World each have their own Hell, and her core soul resides in Hell,
she's a rather troublesome god who can't easily be retaliated against if viewed as an enemy.
The Dream World falls under 'Otherworlds', by the way.

- Also when did the Moon, Earth, and Spirit World have their own respectively Hell? (I thought their was only one hell for all of them...)

I have no idea why the translation switched from "Spirit World" to "Otherworld" in the same paragraph. Either would be okay, I think, but consistency is important. Basically it's saying that you can read "Spirit World" as "Dream World" for the purposes of the plot in this game. Also, since Hecatia has this whole trinity thing going on, I'm pretty sure Otherworld isn't mean to be plural anyway.

Regarding each of the worlds having their own respective hell, the wording in Japanese is something like "Hell also exists in Earth, the Moon, and the Spirit World." While it's not explicit, the wording sort of implies that's there's more than one Hell, and specifically that Hell exists in each of these three places. Although the next line makes it seem like "her core is hiding in Hell, so it's hard for people to fight her." So I guess they would share a Hell? Basically, this line confuses me, so someone else will need to answer.

Quote
Junko Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom - omake.txt

-2 彼女は月の民、嫦娥(じょうが)に強い怨みを持っていた。
  詳しいことはゲームの一部エンディングと被るので省くが、
  繰り返し月の都を襲っては、賢者に怒りを静められる存在だったようだ。
  夫に息子を殺された、と言うのが最初の怨みだが、既に怨みは純化し、
  一人歩きしている様だ。

- She had a deep grudge against Chang'e, one of the Moon's people.
Details are included in one of the game's endings, so things will be kept brief here,
but it seems that she calmed her rage against the sages by repeatedly attacking the Lunar Capital.
Her first grudge came about when her husband killed her child, but said grudge has already been purified
to the point where her anger stands on its own.

Not sure exactly sure what you're asking about here, but my problem with this is the middle line about calming her rage. I would have translated it as "It seems she is a being that can only satisfy her rage against the sages by repeatedly attacking the Lunar Capital." Her rage hasn't been calmed yet, obviously (although that happens later in the profile).

Quote
-3 嫦娥とは、今作品には出てこないが月の都に幽閉された、月の女神である。
  月の兎の支配者でもあり、強大な力を持っているが、表に出ることは無い。
  嫦娥は蓬莱の薬を使った罪人であるのだ。

- Chang'e doesn't appear in the game itself, but she's a goddess of the moon imprisoned in the Lunar Capital.
She rules over the moon rabbits and is extremely powerful, but she doesn't show herself publicly.
She is also a criminal who drank the Hourai Elixir.

This is correct, as far as I can tell. I don't like the tone though, it's way too conversational for what it is.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 12:12:55 am by Clarste »
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2015, 01:19:24 am »
Quick question: What is the thing written next to Hecatia's portrait right before her battle starts?

It looks repetitive so I guess it's something like a kekekeke-style laugh, but I'd like to make sure!
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2015, 03:06:28 am »
Quick question: What is the thing written next to Hecatia's portrait right before her battle starts?

It looks repetitive so I guess it's something like a kekekeke-style laugh, but I'd like to make sure!

ゴゴゴゴ - basically "DUN DUN DUN" onomatopoeia.

GuardianTempest

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2015, 09:35:13 am »
I just discovered Melodic Taste, are there any other circle that produces bombastic, orchestral music which fits as background battle music?

snowflake247

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #58 on: September 29, 2015, 12:37:31 pm »
Tutti Sound, perhaps?

GuardianTempest

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #59 on: September 29, 2015, 01:55:56 pm »
Thank you, their work sounds really great.
 

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