Topic: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating  (Read 98130 times)

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #810 on: August 04, 2017, 07:54:21 pm »
In truth, we know a lot more about Mokou's side of the relationship than we do Kaguya's, since Mokou's chapter of CiLR sets out her entire mentality.  Kaguya's own CiLR chapter doesn't address Mokou, so the best idea we have of her side is the comedy vignettes in Inaba.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #811 on: August 04, 2017, 08:12:30 pm »
The two are rivals. The feud is originally fueled by Mokou's hate, but Kaguya does like to humor it. Inabas manga aside, there's the whole premise of IN Extra stage.

It's not like it's a blind "spill each others' guts on sight" thing, though. They can cooperate when they need to. They just enjoy the idea that they have someone who will definitely stay around for as long as they will to have fun with, for a varying definition of fun.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #812 on: August 04, 2017, 09:32:35 pm »
Remember that ZUN has NEVER wrote any interactions between Mokou and Kaguya. Inaba and Inaba is the closest we have to Canon, and it wasn't even written by ZUN.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #813 on: August 04, 2017, 10:28:56 pm »
Remember that ZUN has NEVER wrote any interactions between Mokou and Kaguya. Inaba and Inaba is the closest we have to Canon, and it wasn't even written by ZUN.

Just another reason why Touhou lives on fandom.

IN Extra stage is pretty much an interaction, as well as Mokou's interview in BAiJR, without mentionning Mokou's profile in IN.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #814 on: August 04, 2017, 11:29:06 pm »
IN Extra stage is pretty much an interaction, as well as Mokou's interview in BAiJR, without mentionning Mokou's profile in IN.
The IN Extra Stage is just Mokou talking about how she hates Kaguya to people sent to beat her up. That doesn't count as what i was talking about.

Same for the interview in BaiJR, she just complains about Kaguya to Aya, she never speaks a word to the former and Kaguya never talks about Mokou in her interview (In fact i don't think she never talked about Mokou at all outside of Inaba and Inaba). And i don't get how her profile counts as an interaction at all.

When i talk about the lack of interactions between Kaguya and Mokou, i mean direct interactions. Like actually talking to each other face to face, or fighting each other directly instead of sending assassins to kill the other. In that regard we have never had that happen in anything directly canonical.

In other words, Kaguya and Mokou's relationship is mostly made up by the fandom.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #815 on: August 04, 2017, 11:42:52 pm »
To be clear, to not have much content from the perspective of Kaguya is somewhat to be expected. Kaguya isn't particularly the one with regrets towards immortality considering she didn't come from a human perspective; Kaguya only barely had an active role in Mokou's character arc, much of which being coincidence, and has no reason to hate Mokou at all; plus the center of her character is about going from the Lunar society to embracing life on Earth and not particularly about her impossible requests and what followed.


I think it's perfectly fine to use their indirect interactions and even the lack of animosity to extrapolate on what their relationship is actually like, and for the most part it makes sense. Heck, I think it's even possible that ZUN wrote in the "friendship" between Mokou and Sumireko as a means to steer the perception of Mokou away from a one-dimensional obsession over Kaguya, which was already pretty flimsy.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #816 on: August 05, 2017, 03:18:05 am »
I think it's perfectly fine to use their indirect interactions and even the lack of animosity to extrapolate on what their relationship is actually like, and for the most part it makes sense.
Even if Kaguya doesn't hate Mokou as much as she does, that doesn't mean they aren't able to directly interact in any fun or interesting way, and honestly, that way of just telling what their relationship is like instead of just showing it, to the point of them not even ever talking to each other, is a bad choice by ZUN, and it really just makes both characters feel more one-dimensional and boring as a result (Especially for Kaguya, considering she even never talks about Mokou at all!), regardless of what their relationship is like.

I'm normally fine with ZUN making things vague, but doing something like Kaguya and Mokou's relationship this way, and never having them ever directly talk in canon, frankly just feels lazy. I don't think it should have been the the fanbase's job to flesh out something that could've very easily been shown in canon.

No offensive meant with this post, that's just how i feel about it.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #817 on: August 05, 2017, 06:38:13 am »
Somehow I feel as if ZUN doesn't really care what you think "his job" or "the fanbase's job" is.

It probably also doesn't help that generally characters only get the spotlight once or twice then disappear for years, so they don't really get the chance to "show rather than tell".
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #818 on: August 05, 2017, 06:53:49 am »
You would think that a character who's feud against a immortal who she constantly kills over and over again as one of her defining personality traits would be shown fighting said rival. But here we are.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #819 on: August 05, 2017, 07:52:44 am »
Not really. That's just the way touhou works- the only characters who regularly interact with other characters are the protags and the manga stars, of which Mokou is neither. Kaguya had a book written about her, but that was more about her life as a lunarian than her life as an earthling.

There are plenty of characters with strong relationships who we don't get to see interact just because they don't get the spotlight in general. Remilia/Flandre, Kanako/Suwako, Koishi/Satori, just to name a few. Kanako/Suwako are especially noticeable because, as you said about Mokou/Kaguya, one of Suwako's most noteable character traits is that she's subordinate to Kanako.

But that's just how touhou is and always has been. As I said, a character gets the spotlight once or twice then they don't show up anymore. Most people realize that early on. I might be disappointed that certain characters don't get more development, but I don't think it's lazy or bad on ZUN's part in any way.

tl;dr, Mokou isn't an important enough character that "showing rather than telling" is a priority.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 07:54:40 am by TresserT »
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #820 on: August 05, 2017, 06:46:36 pm »
ZUN's also said a whole buncha times he's usually more interested in making new characters than reusing old ones in the games and stuff, which kinda makes the whole show rather than tell thing difficult.

Which is cool and good and valid.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #821 on: August 05, 2017, 08:59:20 pm »
There are plenty of characters with strong relationships who we don't get to see interact just because they don't get the spotlight in general. Remilia/Flandre, Kanako/Suwako, Koishi/Satori

We actually do get to see Koishi and Satori interact in Koishi's ULiL ending.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #822 on: August 05, 2017, 11:06:39 pm »
I'm normally fine with ZUN making things vague, but doing something like Kaguya and Mokou's relationship this way, and never having them ever directly talk in canon, frankly just feels lazy. I don't think it should have been the the fanbase's job to flesh out something that could've very easily been shown in canon.

I am always really wary of people telling an artist what their "job" should or should not be with regard to their own work. And I am genuinely puzzled at the "lazy" characterization. The guy who has built an entire mythical world with a cast of hundreds ok maybe around a hundred persons, churns out a game more or less each year, and still writes text works on these characters is somehow guilty of laziness because ... he didn't flesh out a relationship between these two particular characters?

I mean does it even make sense for Mokou to be on Kaguya's radar? As Drake pointed out, most of the conflict between these two characters is on Mokou's end of things. Kaguya has all other fish to fry and in all likelihood was over Mokou's deal long ago.

I love Kaguya to pieces, honestly, and I'd love to see more of the interactions between her and Mokou. But the Touhou universe isn't resting on the weary, selfless shoulders of loyal fans who diligently do ZUN's job for him. He does plenty. We can accept What We Know about Gensokyo at face value, have fun making theories and speculations, or both.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #823 on: August 05, 2017, 11:29:21 pm »
On the topic of exploring Mokou's relationship with Kaguya, i think it was a wasted opportunity to have Reisen in ULIL and AOCF because she was already in SWR and it's expansion Hisoutensoku, they could have used this opportunity to give Kaguya or less directly Eirin heck maybe even Tewi, a chance at representing Eientei, because it is likely that Mokou's partner is going to be Reisen...
This would have given an opportunity to explore Mokou's relationship with the Eientei Faction. Its a rather missed opportunity...
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #824 on: August 05, 2017, 11:48:04 pm »
This would have given an opportunity to explore Mokou's relationship with the Eientei Faction. Its a rather missed opportunity...

And Reisen doesn't qualify for that... why exactly? She's the one that spends the most time contacting the world outside Eientei out of the three (Tewi is kind of on her own), so she makes the most sense. Variety for the sake of variety is a bad idea.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 11:54:16 pm by CyberAngel »

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #825 on: August 06, 2017, 01:50:13 am »
And Reisen doesn't qualify for that... why exactly? She's the one that spends the most time contacting the world outside Eientei out of the three (Tewi is kind of on her own), so she makes the most sense. Variety for the sake of variety is a bad idea.
Well, i should have worded it better actually, It is as you said, variety for the sake of variety i guess.
They could have had Eirin's logic or Tewi's mischeviusness contrasting with Mokou's more reckless personality but i can also understand that an excuse for her not to be in the game would be that Eirin is kinda like Patchouli in that if preferable she doesn't leave Eientei. I like Reisen and i i'd rather Reisen make an appearcence now than never showing up like Flandre or Ran.

( Alert inner fanboy approaching )

To be honest my gripe also lies in the fear that this might be the last game in the" Touhou Flight Simulator Fighters Engine " and that would mean no more Mokou and it would've been a unique opportunity to have a Mokou vs Kaguya in canon...
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #826 on: August 06, 2017, 03:55:22 am »
To be honest my gripe also lies in the fear that this might be the last game in the" Touhou Flight Simulator Fighters Engine " and that would mean no more Mokou and it would've been a unique opportunity to have a Mokou vs Kaguya in canon...

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Unabara Iruka's made it pretty clear in interviews that this is the type of game he originally wanted to produce, whereas IaMP through Hisoutensoku were merely stepping stones. And they've already been making new games in this engine faster than they did for the old one. I think they might retire entirely before they abandon this new engine.
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #827 on: August 14, 2017, 03:19:02 am »
Chen's nationality is Japanese or Chinese?  Some people believe it's the latter because of her name and clothing.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #828 on: August 14, 2017, 04:02:43 am »
She's a Nekomata, so probably Japanese in origin. Her master (Ran) seems to be Chinese though.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #829 on: August 14, 2017, 04:25:05 am »
They're both shikigami so the concept of "nationality" is pretty much irrelevant to begin with. One would also easily assume both Chen the bakeneko and Ran the bakegitsune are from Japan, but who knows.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #830 on: August 14, 2017, 07:00:19 am »
I wouldn't read too much into either of their names anyway, since they were probably named by Yukari after they became shikigami.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #831 on: August 14, 2017, 12:51:46 pm »
Nah, Chen is more likely named by Ran, by the same way Ran is also named :Something meaningful for them. And the language they talk with is one of those first thing that would bring the most effect on them, if you name them right.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #832 on: August 14, 2017, 02:31:45 pm »
Why do people think that Satano and Mai are sisters, despite their obviously different surnames and being outright stated to simply be co-workers?
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #833 on: August 14, 2017, 02:45:41 pm »
Could have many reasons. Though nothing to fuss about as imo it is a harmless confusion people have because they appeared together. A possible scenario is most people don't pay attention to the text. ZUN always introduces the bosses with their title and names. And their names are also often displayed during the spell card.
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #834 on: August 14, 2017, 03:25:11 pm »
Mokou's had plenty of exploration with the Eientei faction, IMHO, especially now that ULiL with Reisen's scenario has shown that Inaba's portrayal of it  was probably close enough.  Heck, Mokou's monologue in CiLR ended with her deciding that even if Kaguya returned to the moon someday, Mokou now had other friends on earth to be around with (instead of relying solely on Kaguya for a motivation to exist).

If Mokou ever does confront Kaguya on screen, BAiJR and Kaguya's lax attitude about it in the extra prologue versus Mokou's seriousnessness in the extra stage shows that it'd probably play out similarly to how it played out in Inaba anyways.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #835 on: August 14, 2017, 06:52:17 pm »
I'm not sure Mai and Satono's surnames really mean anything in this context. When Okina offers Marisa the job, she asks if she wants to be Nishida who draws out vitality or Teireida who draws out spirit (maybe the other way around). This implied to me that becoming her servant changes your name, or rather that those are closer to job titles than actual names.

Still no evidence that they're sisters though.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #836 on: August 15, 2017, 01:09:57 am »
Nah, Chen is more likely named by Ran, by the same way Ran is also named :Something meaningful for them. And the language they talk with is one of those first thing that would bring the most effect on them, if you name them right.
Chen and Ran are both just named after colors; orange and indigo respectively. This is to fall in line with Yukari's scheme of ranking power with colors, scaling from red up to violet, which is Yukari herself.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
« Reply #837 on: August 15, 2017, 05:44:01 pm »
Hello everybody,

Miscellaneous Questions #6 is now locked to improve organisation for misc questions. We've created thread number 7 with a small but important notice for future misc questions.

New thread:  https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,20991.0.html

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