Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ～ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released

[TresserT]

The Yagatarasu has nothing to do with the ten suns, so Utsuho has no role in this.  Similar, but not the same.

I don't know what ZUN has to say on the matter, but in the original legend the ten suns were Yatagarasu. They are based off the same legend. And I'd always assumed that the reason the Yatagarasu Utusho ate was dead was because it was one of the ones that Houyi shot down.

[Drake]

One common version of the legend says the "suns" are Yangwu, the Chinese equivalent of Yatagarasu (陽烏), but they aren't the same myth. The Japanese Yatagarasu (八咫烏) is a Shinto thing, and as far as Touhou goes the three-legged crows are forms of "the" Yatagarasu, which is a god (refer to gods being able to split at will), and Utsuho in "consuming" one became a living shrine for the god. The ten suns, although commonly referring to a sister myth, is different, up to the point that one of Utsuho's cards is Ten Evil Stars, obviously referring to this.

[game2011]

I don't know what ZUN has to say on the matter, but in the original legend the ten suns were Yatagarasu. They are based off the same legend. And I'd always assumed that the reason the Yatagarasu Utusho ate was dead was because it was one of the ones that Houyi shot down.

The ten suns are from Chinese mythology, while the Yatagarasu is from Japanese mythology, so it's more than likely that Utsuho did not "consume" any of the ten.  Her spell card, like Drake said, is just a reference due to them being similar mythologies.

[Sedrife]

The Ten Suns from Chinese Mythology are described as Three Legged Crows (三足烏).  See: http://image.yes24.com/images/chyes/bookshelf/zoo/20080324/01.jpg

So they took the symbolism three-legged crow as a representation of sun, made their own legend unrelated to the Ten Suns, and gave their crow a name: Yatagarasu (八咫烏).

三足烏 = Species = Representation of Sun -> Ten Suns of Chinese Myth
八咫烏 = Name = Representation of Sun -> Recreated by Japanese as a derivative work from imported Chinese myth

[NuclearFalcon]

Confirmation or denial can come only come from ZUN and ZUN alone.  That said, Touhou tends to run fast and loose on such matters as is seen fit and so far this seems to be the best theory for Utsuho's Yatagarasu that my mind will actually process.  This is certainly a very good question to ask the next time ZUN has some sort of Q and A.

[Sage Ω (Ultima)]

https://twitter.com/gobousa1028/status/651878466741125120

Gobou was able to get the first LNN of LoLK.

I wonder if he can dodge this

[TTBD]

>no saves in the new patch

Darn, we're gonna have a bad time.

[ChronaSE]

I almost bought that this was a legit Chang'e made by ZUN.
Why do you do this to me internet?

[Marron]

wuaaaaaa. It's really well done. It gives you the impression of a mix between Junko, Hecatia and Byakuren though so I didn't think it was made by Zun at all.

[TTBD]

a legit Chang'e

THIS GUY.   :getdown:

EDIT: I misread it. I thought it said "I almost bought that this was a legit Change made by ZUN" and because it was Chang'e, that would be the joke. I'm stupid. ;-;

[HalfGrand]

... so, who's the artist?

It gives you the impression of a mix between Junko, Hecatia and Byakuren

Add Seiga and Kaguya in there for the hair and Yukari for the eyes.

[Uruwi]

... so, who's the artist?

ZUN AmbientStorm.

[HalfGrand]

AmbientStorm

Ah, very good. It's too bad that I couldn't find anything else by him when looking on Google or Danbooru but oh well, there are possibly hundreds of thousands of Touhou fan artists who are under appreciated.

On another topic, I'm still waiting on the English patch for LoLK to be refined to its best state before I download the Touhou Patch Center auto updating patch. Last time I asked there were still a few things that were a little rough around the edges so I decided to wait a little longer before I got the patch. I plan to do away with the auto updating file when I get the patch so I want to make sure that the current patch version is at its best.

Are things like the music room, ZUN credits and other finer details all translated to good quality yet? I'm having trouble learning if things like the music room are translated when looking at the TPC website.

[DTM]

On another topic, I'm still waiting on the English patch for LoLK to be refined to its best state before I download the Touhou Patch Center auto updating patch. Last time I asked there were still a few things that were a little rough around the edges so I decided to wait a little longer before I got the patch. I plan to do away with the auto updating file when I get the patch so I want to make sure that the current patch version is at its best.

Out of curiosity, why do you plan to do away with the auto updating file?  I personally don't see any gains from its deletion.

[shockdude]

On another topic, I'm still waiting on the English patch for LoLK to be refined to its best state before I download the Touhou Patch Center auto updating patch. Last time I asked there were still a few things that were a little rough around the edges so I decided to wait a little longer before I got the patch. I plan to do away with the auto updating file when I get the patch so I want to make sure that the current patch version is at its best.

Are things like the music room, ZUN credits and other finer details all translated to good quality yet? I'm having trouble learning if things like the music room are translated when looking at the TPC website.

thpatch.net's LoLK page contains links to everything translatable in the game, including a fully translated music room. Quick glances indicate that everything has an English translation, at least, so I'd go for it. Imo there's no reason to hold back for a better version later because there will always be a better version later.

Of course it would be nice if thpatch offered a "stable version" of their translation, exchanging super-up-to-dateness with quality assurance, but oh well.

On a side note, thpatch's parody 4kids-style localization is disturbingly funny.

[HalfGrand]

thpatch.net's LoLK page contains links to everything translatable in the game, including a fully translated music room. Quick glances indicate that everything has an English translation, at least, so I'd go for it. Imo there's no reason to hold back for a better version later because there will always be a better version later.

Excellent, If everything is translated then it looks like I can finally go ahead and add LoLK to my Touhou folder. Thanks Shockdude for the heads up... and thank you to all the translators who made it happen!

Out of curiosity, why do you plan to do away with the auto updating file?  I personally don't see any gains from its deletion.

Nostalgia for the Static patch days ~  :derp: <3

Seriously though, auto-updating patches for games that can be altered openly by anyone at anytime by accessing and editing a simple website are just screaming to be open to abuse by trolls. I would hate to open up one of my Touhou games one day looking to do some 1CC masochism and am greeted by all the text in the game saying "TOUHOU HIJACK LOL" or something similarly annoying. If something like that happens, you then have to wait for someone to fix all of that vandalism for the English text to be restored to its proper state. Why bother with all that when you can just disable the always online  portion of the patch and be confident in knowing that that will never be a problem?

TL;DR: Wiki vandalism is a thing and I must protect myself from that.

Also, disabling the always online portion of the patch means that I can effectively archive a working copy of the English patch and not have to worry with one day finding out that the patch is no longer being supported by Touhou Patch Center for whatever reason. Touhou Patch Center one day might not be around for many number of reasons such as the owners of the domain might not be able to pay for the site maintenance anymore and the website simply ceases to exist and all the text in the patch disappears along with it. That's a worse case scenario but a possibility none the less.

Also, with corporate power grabs such as the Trans Pacific Partnership and other pushes to censor and control the internet, who is to say that video game modders will not be hit with bullshit such as copyright claims that force them to cease and desist their maintenance and development of support mods for games?... even if the owner of the copyright has no means to want to enforce copyright law? ZUN is such a great guy that he would not do that to his fans but if something like the TPP comes into enforcement, enforcers will come after you without the copyright owners consent or knowledge.

Having an offline English patch means that you can keep your copy of the patch and nobody can come after you and take it away from you (as long as they don't know you have a copy of anything they want to confiscate). Trust me, the push by evil people to dominate free speech, censor the internet and take away our freedoms and liberties is one that is ever present and we must defend ourselves from it in case they one day actually succeed in their agenda.

TL;DR: I like to archive my digital data so that nobody can take my stuff away from me from the digital source. When nobody else can get an English patch.... I will have one.

Seriously though, if something like the TPP comes into law, the maintenance of our online Touhou English patches is going to be the least of our problems. Oppose that traitorous bill at all costs!

Of course it would be nice if thpatch offered a "stable version" of their translation

I fully agree. Something that can be improved with the Touhou Patch Center is communication with its community. If they make announcements such as "the LoLK English patch is complete and has been checked for accuracy" then I would know that its time to download that patch. When they have "Languages with >95% coverage" on the front page... sure, its covered, but has it been covered *well* and Japanese speakers agree that the translation is accurate? I would recommend a voting system for authentication of translation or at least reviews or cross references by different Japanese speakers.

Yes, I am aware of translation arguments such as labeling Sukuna a Kobito, an inchling or a dwarf but when such arguments over translation arise, a simple vote for which label is preferable should be the best cause of action.

On a side note, thpatch's parody 4kids-style localization is disturbingly funny.

I admire the parody that the 4Kids localization group is doing, but honestly, the less I am reminded of that xenophobic, close minded and western ideology worshiping company, the better. Seriously, 4kids think they have to shield young children from other cultures as if they are some sort of bad influence! Other cultures should be explored and celebrated to young children to help their developing mind grow and nurture tolerance and understanding of other ways of life. Not just have a label of "Murica, Fuck Yeah!" stuck over anything non-American.

Are 4kids still around? I hope 4kids and everything they stand for burn to the ground!

I think that the idea of 4Kids Touhou would probably work better as a doujin manga where the western influence could be explored better and characters such as "Melissa" could be fleshed out more without the confines of having it all centered on the games stories. Much more freedom for parody could come from that but still, its their project.

[shockdude]

I admire the parody that the 4Kids localization group is doing, but honestly, the less I am reminded of that xenophobic, close minded and western ideology worshiping company, the better. Seriously, 4kids think they have to shield young children from other cultures as if they are some sort of bad influence! Other cultures should be explored and celebrated to young children to help their developing mind grow and nurture tolerance and understanding of other ways of life. Not just have a label of "Murica, Fuck Yeah!" stuck over anything non-American.

Are 4kids still around? I hope 4kids and everything they stand for burn to the ground!

I think that the idea of 4Kids Touhou would probably work better as a doujin manga where the western influence could be explored better and characters such as "Melissa" could be fleshed out more without the confines of having it all centered on the games stories. Much more freedom for parody could come from that but still, its their project.

[DTM]

Seriously though, auto-updating patches for games that can be altered openly by anyone at anytime by accessing and editing a simple website are just screaming to be open to abuse by trolls. I would hate to open up one of my Touhou games one day looking to do some 1CC masochism and am greeted by all the text in the game saying "TOUHOU HIJACK LOL" or something similarly annoying. If something like that happens, you then have to wait for someone to fix all of that vandalism for the English text to be restored to its proper state. Why bother with all that when you can just disable the always online  portion of the patch and be confident in knowing that that will never be a problem?

Well, considering that in two years, there has been absolutely no instances of malicious vandalism, the prospect of trolls messing with the translations is moot (and you need an account to edit).  If there ever was vandalism though, each change is logged so the messed up translations are fixed almost immediately.  Should it be the case that THPatch is hit by extended attacks of vandalism one day (which I highly doubt), there are solutions to solving that problem.

Also, disabling the always online portion of the patch means that I can effectively archive a working copy of the English patch and not have to worry with one day finding out that the patch is no longer being supported by Touhou Patch Center for whatever reason. Touhou Patch Center one day might not be around for many number of reasons such as the owners of the domain might not be able to pay for the site maintenance anymore and the website simply ceases to exist and all the text in the patch disappears along with it. That's a worse case scenario but a possibility none the less.

Actually, thcrap works perfectly offline, even with the automatic updater.  Should the site ever go down, the patch you installed will still work perfectly, with all the translations intact.  It just won't update (as there is nothing to update to).

The main benefit of patches that are automatically updated when you start the game is that you are assured of the most up to date translations.  Sure as of now, we say the translation is accurate, but inevitably, as time passes, there will be a translation debate and the translation will change.  Unfortunately, static patches are virtually guaranteed to not be updated with those changes (which is why the static patch for TH07 still has Charming Dominion instead of Youkai Dominion or that the static patch for TH13 still has Legends of the Great Gods instead of Omiwa Legend and who knows how many other out of date translations).

Ultimately, THPatch provides the hosting of patches (which are not limited to translations *shameless self promotion*).  While it would be nice to have this voting system authentication, there really isn't enough people interested in that.  Again, all translators are invited and should help contribute, so if there is a problem, they can just fix it (and if there isn't a fix, it is either correct or there isn't enough interest).

Also, if I recall correctly, 4kids went bankrupt. 

[monhan]

Since I think the discussion of LoLK seems to be focused here, I'll post some of the things I found. (In case these have been brought up before, then pardon me for not reading previous pages/threads):
http://homepage3.nifty.com/alacarte/gines-sub-tensei.htm (Open in Internet Explorer if it turns into gibberish in Mozilla or Chrome)

I think everyone knows that Houyi have more than one wife and the story changes depending on the legends.
From this site, it listed 2 in particular. One of them was Chang'e during the rule of Emperor Yao, who ordered Houyi to shoot down the 10 suns. Then, either in a different myth or later after the death of Emperor Yao during the Xia era/dynasty(during this time, Houyi is a god), his wive is named Gensai, who also goes by another name, "Junko". (Yes, same kanji as Touhou Junko)

According to the Japanese Wikipedia entry for Gensai, the "Junko" here is described to be a "fair woman with beautiful black hair". (You may want to look back to that "fanmade Chang'e" art, but we haven't gotten to the more confusing part)

Prior to all that, I read some threads in 2chan where some source mentioned that Junko was Chang'e's childhood name. Now you can go back and look at the "fanmade Chang'e" art again.
Part of it can be read here: http://blog.livedoor.jp/coleblog/archives/52042083.html

It also has some possible theory about "Sanmikoku"(三身国), which was born from the Goddess of Xiang River, Ehuang, who is also the daughter of Emperor Yao. The Sanmikoku is governed by three "beings" dubbed "Sanshinjin"(三身人). They are described as "having one head, but with three different bodies". This is thought to be where the Hecatia connection comes in.
Alas, I couldn't find more about the Junko being young Chang'e's old name thing, but honestly, what the hell, ZUN? The fact that Junko is now more of a divine spirit with no identity makes it sound strangely viable.
I need another Akyuu data book to wrap my head around these.

[notext]

The main benefit of patches that are automatically updated when you start the game is that you are assured of the most up to date translations.  Sure as of now, we say the translation is accurate, but inevitably, as time passes, there will be a translation debate and the translation will change. 

The idea that a translation can be out of date is fundamentally wrong-headed - a more recent translation isn't "more up to date", it is more recent. If I read a translation of Don Quixote that has been written this century it is not necessarily going to be a better translation than one written in the previous century or before. It could be, and could be written for more modern sensibilities, but people will argue over the quality regardless, and the idea that one supersedes the other is ridiculous. This goes doubly for translations from Japanese, which is a very different language from English and invites a lot of subjective translation. I have no doubt you could put together two fairly different scripts for TH15 and have them both be "correct", at least in the general sense.

Don't get me wrong, I actually think the work that has gone into the autopatcher is extremely valuable, particularly in providing a set of tools to allow non-english translations. You're doing amazing work. But I haven't downloaded it myself because whenever the question of whether the translation has been finished is asked, the question gets blown off as a non-issue. And if responsibility for the quality of the translation has been abdicated by the people working on the patch then the message that sends me is that the translation was produced without any care for the result. An individual fan translator and editor may make mistakes, but if they're willing to put their names to the work and say it's finished then at least you know they tried.

[DTM]

Well, I can assure you that right now, the English patches hosted on the site is of high quality. It took a longer time to get the endings right for TH15 but that is now a non-issue.

[shockdude]

The idea that a translation can be out of date is fundamentally wrong-headed - a more recent translation isn't "more up to date", it is more recent. If I read a translation of Don Quixote that has been written this century it is not necessarily going to be a better translation than one written in the previous century or before. It could be, and could be written for more modern sensibilities, but people will argue over the quality regardless, and the idea that one supersedes the other is ridiculous. This goes doubly for translations from Japanese, which is a very different language from English and invites a lot of subjective translation. I have no doubt you could put together two fairly different scripts for TH15 and have them both be "correct", at least in the general sense.

Don't get me wrong, I actually think the work that has gone into the autopatcher is extremely valuable, particularly in providing a set of tools to allow non-english translations. You're doing amazing work. But I haven't downloaded it myself because whenever the question of whether the translation has been finished is asked, the question gets blown off as a non-issue. And if responsibility for the quality of the translation has been abdicated by the people working on the patch then the message that sends me is that the translation was produced without any care for the result. An individual fan translator and editor may make mistakes, but if they're willing to put their names to the work and say it's finished then at least you know they tried.

Thcrap's philosophy is based on that of modern software development; software is never "complete" (there will always be a better version), and thcrap will never be complete either. The ideal was to have an open-source modding engine in which anyone can make whatever translation they wanted, from different languages to variations of the same language (e.g. literal vs localized translation).
The thing is most modern software will attempt a "stable release," with objective milestones and quality assurance. Thcrap only offers what is technically an "unstable development" release, which is excellent for translation development and testing but not ideal for end-users.
IIRC nmlgc did say that basing thcrap on a wiki was a mistake; if he were to do it again he'd use something like github instead, which offers better tools for this sort of project.

Edit: every time thcrap gets brought up it derails the main thread topic lol.

[Drake]

It could be, and could be written for more modern sensibilities, but people will argue over the quality regardless, and the idea that one supersedes the other is ridiculous. This goes doubly for translations from Japanese, which is a very different language from English and invites a lot of subjective translation. I have no doubt you could put together two fairly different scripts for TH15 and have them both be "correct", at least in the general sense.

While I agree that changing style or having slightly differently worded translations would be a bit silly to put one over others, that picture of the Touhou translation scene is incorrect for the most part. It isn't that important updated translations are just subjectively nicer wordings or something, it's that the old translation was either flat-out wrong, wasn't putting across what it was meant to, or if it was implying something it shouldn't have. There are definitely super-minor grammar nitpicks and battles of literal accuracy vs understandability, but the cases where changing a translation is even needed usually means there was something non-trivial that was wrong, and at that point you can no longer argue that the old version is comparably accurate.

And if responsibility for the quality of the translation has been abdicated by the people working on the patch then the message that sends me is that the translation was produced without any care for the result. An individual fan translator and editor may make mistakes, but if they're willing to put their names to the work and say it's finished then at least you know they tried.

Except the nature of these translations being collaborative means that even if one person can translate something to the best of their ability, doesn't mean said translation is "done" as though it's a claim of perfection. Those who release static patches aren't going to claim their translation can't be improved, it's just what they could do. If it can be improved at that point, it doesn't matter that the patch is done, it's still in need of correction. Often translators can just not have all necessary information or context, which tends to happen a lot with Touhou. You can't blame any one person for that, it's up to the community as a whole to fix things.

This doesn't even have much to do with thpatch specifically. It's just how Touhou's translations have always evolved throughout its history.

[The ⑨th Zentillion]

It's just how Touhou's translations have always evolved throughout its history.

ex. the liberties taken in 6-8's translations; after those that certain style began to fade from then on, for the most part.

[N-Forza]

ex. the liberties taken in 6-8's translations; after those that certain style began to fade from then on, for the most part.

Thank goodness for that.

[Tengukami]

ex. the liberties taken in 6-8's translations; after those that certain style began to fade from then on, for the most part.

"Let's get this youkai party started!" is a work of genius.

[Critz]

Pardon me if I'm asking for that in the wrong place, but would someone happen to have a fully unlocked score.dat file for LoLK?  :V

[the old guy]

"Let's get this youkai party started!" is a work of genius.

Don't forget "Get out of the way bitch!".

[Helepolis]

Don't forget "Get out of the way bitch!".

Which is never said, btw.

Edit: Misread the convo due to quoting and post order. My apologies.

Speaking of those TL: I think I still have that English patch applied to my own copy of IN. Though back then I didn't much bother about the actual dialogues or story line. The shame.

[kevin1127]

I was thinking about reviving the dead magazine thread , but then I realized I have a few to talk about, and since this is related to LoLK, might as well just post it here.
Some new information on LoLK interview (same as last time, this is from Chinese website and I suck at translating)
(oh, by the way, there are too many Japanese history/culture related shit which I have no knowledge about, I'm going to ignore those)

1. There is no relationship between the naming of 1st&2nd stage boss and WW2 (apparently Seiran and Ringo are or sound like warships or warplanes or something), it just because ZUN wanted to follow Lunar-Capital-is -Chinese-style-thing and so named them in Chinese style.
2. Change'e is in toad form.  (I love this, good job ZUN)
3. Sagacious spirit(仙霊) can be viewed as a type of divine spirit (someone asked this in misc ques few weeks ago)
4. ZUN thinks Lunar Capital is sick in many aspects, and LoLK shows some degrees of how sick Lunarians are (such as how a bunch of fairies screwed them). In the mean time, in terms of ULiL, outside world is also sick.
5. Junko's purify power is to return objects to their status before they were named, aka god's power. CoLA had talked about this (I thinks it's chapter 14). Before they received a name, objectss are gods. After they are named, they lost the quality of gods. Junko's power is basically "making god". (So I think we may say that Clownpiece temporarily became a god in LoLK, yet her power is still said to be weaker than Sagume).

The rest have nothing to do with LoLK, but I still going to put them here..
6. Genosokyo's belief = everything has gods in it (WaHH30: fungi are gods)
7. Reimu has different personalities in WaHH and FS, because they're written in different perspectives (we kind of knew this already..)
8. Sanae and Sumireko are both using some kinds of outside world perspective. Difference is Sanae has more positive elements and Sumireko has more negative elements.

(BTW, I just realized the original texts of LoLK and ULiL interviews had been uploaded on wiki. Great, I hope google translation can give me something.

EDITED: For number 5, it's chapter 15 "A nameless stone"