Author Topic: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released  (Read 215992 times)

Serela

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Her second purple nonspell and both blue nonspells are kinda crazy.

Junko's are even worse, though. Mostly in an annoying "just bomb it" way, though.

In other news, I have learned that yes, pointdevice registers your clear and deletes your autosave before actually starting the ending screens. I now have a clear with no player data register, which is awkward somewhat because it was a No Death run ;_; But it was Reisen Easy Mode pointdevice (I mean 0 retries) so it wasn't that special anyway.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

ChronaSE

  • Doremy-rekt
Speaking about the extra stage, in your opinion how does Hecatia fare in terms of dificulty to other extra bosses?

I'd put her around Mokou/Ran tier, she's not as easy as Raiko, Nue or Suwako but not as hard as Flandre or Koishi.
Hecatia may seem easy only if you bomb her entire battle, but her laser spam and moon impact spell are rather tricky. A lot of micrododging is required on the most part.

Though, If I had to try to do a run against both Koishi and Hecatia without bombing, I'd definitely do better on Koishi, simply because I suck at micrododging. 
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 11:30:17 PM by ChronaSE »

Critz

  • Heartwarming ★ Miracle
Might be colored by my experiences so far, but I'm about ready to put the Extra Stage as the hardest among the Windows games. The stage portion is mostly trivial stuff, but there are exceptions such as those random spam sections before and after Doremy that are easy to screw up, those bean-spamming big fairies that you have to shoot down fast or the last criss-crossing bean section, which is easily high-end Lunatic tier and rather long. Doremy's mostly easy peasy, but Crawling Bullet likes to be a jerk from time to time and has that double kill bullshit Nueball had going unless you bomb before the card as Reisen.

Hecatia's nonspells are unheard-of brutal by Extra standards (barring Mokou's rings of death) and have tons of HP - the pink one is obviously the worst due to barely enough space to squeeze into, but the blue ones also have the tendency to overlap just in the right way to box you in, and Junko's nonspells are basically soft resource caps unless you're very confident in your microtaps. The first and the second card are easy once you get the hang of them, but the gloves come off by Apollo Reflection Mirror, which demands some very quick thinking. Trapped Rat looks like a riddle and Rain Falling in Hell is very much manageable, but Hell's Non-Ideal Danmaku screws pretty bad with my reading ability. Lunatic Impact demands on-point microreads, good rhythm and the ability to keep calm under pressure. Pristine Danmaku might as well be another softcap. As for the survival card, depends on whether those things are static or not, but the later barrages of all three phases demand consistent guessing of the trajectories of tiny bullets on a split-second basis that I certainly cannot boast. Finally, the last card seems pretty manageable, but I haven't reached it yet.

All things considered, I do not want to prononunce LoLK Extra as the hardest Windows Extra yet - UFO certainly boasts a way harder stage portion and Mamizou's latter half of the fight is brutal enough that I feel reclutant to dethrone her from the hardest EX-boss on my list. But LoLK is easily up there among the hardest - a far cry from DDC, where I cruised through on the first day thanks to the more broken shot types (or the likes of PCB or MoF, which I could just resource through after getting the hang of some patterns for the matter). This time, I advance forward inch by inch purely by dropping man-hours into getting the hang of everything.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 11:35:19 PM by Critz »

Hecatia's purple nonspells are the Literal Worst because she can suddenly decide to move way too low on the screen. On one of my runs she hovered at that height for four consecutive waves.

kevin1127

  • 古明地こいし is cute and beautiful!!
Is it on youtube?

So far I have not seen any perfect extra on youtube yet.
There are now two perfect extra videos on bilibili (a Chinese video website that is basically a rip-off of niconico)
and at least one on niconico (there could be more but I haven't checked it yet)

Critz

  • Heartwarming ★ Miracle
http://score.royalflare.net/th15/levelchar15.html#L4C0
The first run on the list is a Reimu Extra Stage NDNB.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
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In other news, I have learned that yes, pointdevice registers your clear and deletes your autosave before actually starting the ending screens. I now have a clear with no player data register, which is awkward somewhat because it was a No Death run ;_; But it was Reisen Easy Mode pointdevice (I mean 0 retries) so it wasn't that special anyway.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean, but I was able to register player data for my Sanae Easy PD clear. Though I don't remember if this popped up before or after the ending to be honest.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean, but I was able to register player data for my Sanae Easy PD clear. Though I don't remember if this popped up before or after the ending to be honest.
Oh, oops, I had forgotten to write part of the post. I had meant to stop the run at the last spellcard so that I could finish the save later and then beat the last card when Reisen's ending was translated; however, I got so into the no death run I forgot until it said "STAGE CLEAR!" on the last stage >.> Whooops. It still let me go back to the menu and click "Return to Title Screen"... but it had already recorded it as a clear and given me a clear stamp and deleted the save. Before I got to the data entry screen, ending, or credits. XD
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

aListers

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What are the chances of this game being released in the west or at least online? I'm not sure if I should get the game now or wait for a release in the west.
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Sedrife

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Heads up to any Touhouwiki contributers, is there any separate terms that we can use for Lunarian's purification (浄化) vs. Junko's purification (純化)? 
Mixing these two terms up will bring a lot of confusion to English communities, thinking that they mean the same thing. 


Quote
What are the chances of this game being released in the west or at least online? I'm not sure if I should get the game now or wait for a release in the west.

Waiting for Touhou to be released in the west is akin to waiting for ZUN to give up beer forever... don't hold your breath buddy :derp:

Tengukami

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Waiting for Touhou to be released in the west is akin to waiting for ZUN to give up beer forever... don't hold your breath buddy :derp:

Uh, does this count as "released in the West"? I mean, if by "released in the West" he meant "available at GameStop" then no, not likely. But online distribution has already started in the West.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Uruwi

  • Nightmare of Torrential Precipitation
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Heads up to any Touhouwiki contributers, is there any separate terms that we can use for Lunarian's purification (浄化) vs. Junko's purification (純化)? 
Mixing these two terms up will bring a lot of confusion to English communities, thinking that they mean the same thing.

Aside from using the original Japanese terms, one could refer to the latter as "cleansing" or "refinement".
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UTW

What are the chances of this game being released in the west or at least online? I'm not sure if I should get the game now or wait for a release in the west.

I think it's likely to hit Playism, so maybe wait until then. Who knows how quickly that will be, though.

Heads up to any Touhouwiki contributers, is there any separate terms that we can use for Lunarian's purification (浄化) vs. Junko's purification (純化)? 
Mixing these two terms up will bring a lot of confusion to English communities, thinking that they mean the same thing.

First, I don't think it's terribly necessary since there's already a note in Junko's article. But if I had to change one it might actually be the Lunarian purification, which already has its share of misunderstanding, anyway. It's definitely not always recommended translation procedure, but since it's a very abstract Japanese concept not easily duplicated with a singular word in English, I'd be inclined to just leave it as kegare like other non-1:1 Japanese words sometimes left as is in translation. On the other hand, even with all the misunderstandings that still exist, the Lunarian version has like 8 years on the new one and it's sometimes hard to enforce change.

Edit: But if Junko's were to change I think "refine" would probably be best.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 08:09:36 PM by UTW »

Raikaria

  • Do Tank Girls Dream...
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  • Of Floating Eyeballs?
TH15 makes me realize how heavily my interest with the series is tied to mythology. I mean I've always been a mythology and theory junkie but TH15 is very lukewarm for me.

Aside from the 'Moon Rabbits' and of course Doremi [A Baku]... there's not really any real myths playing out. Just Lunarian stuff. I mean sure Hecatia is somewhat based on Hecete but it feels loose. Junko is basically an OC with no solid mythological connotations, making me less invested in caring about her and the story. [Hell she's a Stage 6 boss who dosen't even have a 2nd name]. It's to the point there's not even an 'origin' section for her on the wiki.

It's like; why on earth should I care about Junko? I've faced vampires, gods, saints, possibly satan, The Yama, and so on. And now... we have... Junko. Just Junko.  Some Lunarian who became a spirit of vengeance. And unlike Mima we actually know what the source of her hate is. So she dosen't even have that mystery.

The characters don't have me asking big questions either, although that could be fixed with development in the future. The new character that interests me the most is the Stage 3 boss. Which doesn't exactly get me that hyped for the game. And if I'm not motivated to fight the Stage 6 boss, I'm not gonna be motivated to fight through the rest.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 09:26:11 PM by Raikaria »


http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/tribute/
I don't even remember who put the above in my sig. [Wasn't me] Nor do I understand why I keep it here anymore.
Those two facts sum me up pretty well.

UTW

TH15 makes me realize how heavily my interest with the series is tied to mythology. I mean I've always been a mythology and theory junkie but TH15 is very lukewarm for me.

Aside from the 'Moon Rabbits' and of course Doremi [A Baku]... there's not really any real myths playing out. Just Lunarian stuff. I mean sure Hecatia is somewhat based on Hecete but it feels loose. Junko is basically an OC with no solid mythological connotations, making me less invested in caring about her and the story. [Hell she's a Stage 6 boss who dosen't even have a 2nd name]. It's to the point there's not even an 'origin' section for her on the wiki.

It's like; why on earth should I care about Junko? I've faced vampires, gods, saints, possibly satan, The Yama, and so on. And now... we have... Junko. Just Junko.  Some Lunarian who became a spirit of vengeance. And unlike Mima we actually know what the source of her hate is. So she dosen't even have that mystery.

The characters don't have me asking big questions either, although that could be fixed with development in the future. The new character that interests me the most is the Stage 3 boss. Which doesn't exactly get me that hyped for the game. And if I'm not motivated to fight the Stage 6 boss, I'm not gonna be motivated to fight through the rest.

Well the Lunarians are definitely rooted in mythology. The ones introduced so far are all based on various kami who are relative big shots or are at least well-known names.

Junko is definitely myth/folklore based, too. Not an OC by any means. As for why she doesn't yet have an Origin entry, her basis is obscure even for Touhou due to it being a Chinese story that is, for the most part untranslated to English and little known, so even moreso for us westerners. So deriving the source relies on those more knowledgeable to sniff it out. Her basis is also half speculation and the wiki tries not to rely too heavily on that, so it comes down to presenting it in a way that stays true. Additionally, most information about Junko's background comes from Reisen's ending, which is still untranslated, so that needs to be waited on...not only translated, but maybe even for spoilers to pass, before adding it to the wiki so as not to spoil anything.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
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Eh, there's a lot of mythology, both Japanese and Chinese, tied in with this game. I don't know how you missed this, especially where Junko is concerned. But ultimately this complaint reads like "this isn't the game I wanted it to be" so ...

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

kevin1127

  • 古明地こいし is cute and beautiful!!


I have no idea how you draw this conclusion. Kishin, Hecatia, and Junko (even Houyi, Chang'e, and Apollo) are all based on characters from mythology and legend.

EDIT: Looks like you haven't read the ending, huh?  Maybe you should check the endings and reconsider your thoughts.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 12:14:42 AM by kevin1127 »

Kaizaki

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Has a consensus been reached on Junko's backstory? [...]
Now that the discussion has shifted back to folklore: have we learned/speculated anything new about Junko since this was asked a while ago? I'm quite keen on new info. Some crackpot ideas I posted before... :blush:

UTW

Now that the discussion has shifted back to folklore: have we learned/speculated anything new about Junko since this was asked a while ago? I'm quite keen on new info. Some crackpot ideas I posted before... :blush:

Not really. I think it's the same information we've always had since the Xuan Qi stuff was found. For what it's worth, here are passages corroborating what's been said from some threads on 4chan which I could find again if I wanted, but it's mostly bullshitting besides these bits, anyway (1,2). Also, here's a discussion that mostly says the same stuff, but also brings up the Huli jing. I have no idea if they're right about the huli jing's traits, though, or if it's even significant enough to Junko to include (sort of like Xihe whose connection is tenuous). Also, here's a page on Baidu using Junko's name, no idea if it's relevant.

I think if we don't bother with the extraneous stuff like Xihe's possible influence, then Junko's origin is rather straightforward. The problem, then, is the Yi/Houyi mess: which story came first, was one simply based on the other, were they distinct, etc. But given even the Chinese or scholars are confused about it all, it's probably pointless for us to wonder too much about it.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 01:33:31 AM by UTW »

Kaizaki

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Thanks for this.

Critz

  • Heartwarming ★ Miracle
Personally, I want to clear up some details on Sagume. Her profile states that the spread of the apollo coverup theory would materialize the Lunar Capital in Gensokyo.
The "Lunar Capital Transfer Plan" was to purify Gensokyo and build a new capital there. To 'purify' is to eliminate life and death. That is to say, they were going to annihilate all the living things on the Earth's surface.
I wonder if that means that just bringing the Lunar Capital to Gensokyo would have the reverse effect of what Clownpiece was doing on the moon and kill all life. I don't recall if the precise mechanics of urban legend materialization were explored in ULiL, but since that migration of the Lunar Capital sounds obviously permament, I assume that's a different kind of urban legend materialization than the momentary effects from the gameplay (as Lunar Capital is one of the gameplay effects).

Also, do we have any kind of estimate of the size of the Lunar Capital in canon? If it's supposed to fit in Gensokyo, I can't be *that* big, but the profile above speaks about the annihilation of all life from the Earth's surface. If so then damn, Sagume's power is pretty scary and Sumireko was *this* close to bringing around the end of the world.

Although, that also makes me wonder why did Sagure continue the invasion after her best bet (Sumireko's Lunar Capital ball activation) already failed and she was left with plain old rabbit invasion as the takeover method. Did she hope to somehow subdue the earthlings with the rabbits and go along with the purification plan anyway, or did she not count on Sumireko's activation in the first place (seeing as she refered to the Fake Apollo plan as merely an insurance she considered and the Lunarians themselves are stated to be opposed to the idea of moving the Capital in her profile - either Sagume didn't know how close Sumireko came to activating the ball or Sumireko's suicide attack would actually NOT be enough to bring the Capital to the Earth, only smash the Hakurei Barrier - or Sagume's just fucking cold enough to bluff about the extend of danger in order to save face and not anger someone whom she can exploit to help her retake the Capital)?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 02:58:53 AM by Critz »

Drake

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Okay, so that particular line is probably not quite correct. It seems to assert that their plan was to eliminate all life on Earth, but this is clearly stupid if the goal was to get a rumor started to live in Gensokyo. If you wiped out every living thing on the planet you could just take the whole planet, which eliminates the whole reason Lunarians are on the moon in the first place. Among other reasons, this is just not the case. The line says 「全ての地上の生き物を殲滅する」, and particularly 地上 here means "surface", not "Earth", which would have been 地球 or something. They were trying to wipe out the area so they could move there, hence the rover killing the wildlife. Just Gensokyo, not the whole planet.

As far as its relation to the Power Stone, Sagume likely was not aware of Sumireko's dumb antics in particular. Sumireko dumping their power to break the Barrier wasn't part of any plan; the Power Stone was just the means for the rumor to make its way into Gensokyo.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 05:09:18 AM by Drake »

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Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
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Semiimportant plot detail about a Marisa ending that contradicts what was stated here earlier-
Spoiler:
the lunar capital power stone does not disappear in her Good Ending, unless the translation is borked; just Yukari disappears. Their talk implies it may continue to be important in the future.

In other news, the patch has all the endings translated now, but several of them are still pretty rough around the edges... and Sanae's legacy ending is almost google translate tier. Reimu's are mostly fine but have some awkward wording, Marisa's are good and I haven't gotten Reisen's yet (simply because they were the last to come out, just overnight now, and I have to go to work now)
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Critz

  • Heartwarming ★ Miracle
So, Yukari isn't *as* shady as I thought she would be, but that doesn't change the fact that her role in recent events doesn't endear her to me one bit.

Okay, so that particular line is probably not quite correct. It seems to assert that their plan was to eliminate all life on Earth, but this is clearly stupid if the goal was to get a rumor started to live in Gensokyo. If you wiped out every living thing on the planet you could just take the whole planet, which eliminates the whole reason Lunarians are on the moon in the first place. Among other reasons, this is just not the case. The line says 「全ての地上の生き物を殲滅する」, and particularly 地上 here means "surface", not "Earth", which would have been 地球 or something. They were trying to wipe out the area so they could move there, hence the rover killing the wildlife. Just Gensokyo, not the whole planet.
A sound argument. I concur.

As far as its relation to the Power Stone, Sagume likely was not aware of Sumireko's dumb antics in particular. Sumireko dumping their power to break the Barrier wasn't part of any plan; the Power Stone was just the means for the rumor to make its way into Gensokyo.
That's certainly a possibility, although on the outside-narrative level, I consider it too contrived that Sumireko could use the Power Stone in some other way than to materialize the Lunar Capital and still achieve the same effect (destruction of Gensokyo). Especially considering Reimu's wording:

Reimu: But the Lunar Capital ball is the only one that's not from the Outside World! Maybe she was being used by someone else, I don't know. I think she probably hasn't realized it herself... But if that ball's true power is used in its current condition, it'll connect to somewhere other than Gensokyo as well!

After giving it another thought, I'm still not fully convinced about that "Clownpiece made it possible to breath on the moon" thing either, because she wasn't there during SSiB, and Reimu, Marisa, Remilia and Sakuya could breathe just fine. Since SSiB also had an actual ocean made of water on the moon as opposed to the basalt maria as well as trees that could possibly produce oxygen, I think I'll just settle on a handwave that the Touhou!Moon is different from the moon we know and Clownpiece's impurity has nothing to do with it. Unless some of you guys got a better explanation.

In other news, the patch has all the endings translated now, but several of them are still pretty rough around the edges... and Sanae's legacy ending is almost google translate tier. Reimu's are mostly fine but have some awkward wording, Marisa's are good and I haven't gotten Reisen's yet (simply because they were the last to come out, just overnight now, and I have to go to work now)
With all due respect to the translation and his/her effort, I think I'll hold on with translating the endings into Polish so far. Especially since Clarste-senpai already gave us quick translations of most of the endings a while ago (Reimu Legacy, Marisa Legacy and Pointdevice and Sanae Legacy and Pointdevice), and it looks better than the one on thpatch.net.

It's great to hear that the translation effort is going along nicely. I am looking forward to finally playing this game in a way that I can understand what is going on.

Please though, lets not release an English patch in a state where things can be misinterpreted or if the translation is Google translate tier. Lets release something that we can be proud of, like ZUN would have.  :moogy:

Prime32

  • Munch-Munch Demon
After giving it another thought, I'm still not fully convinced about that "Clownpiece made it possible to breath on the moon" thing either, because she wasn't there during SSiB, and Reimu, Marisa, Remilia and Sakuya could breathe just fine. Since SSiB also had an actual ocean made of water on the moon as opposed to the basalt maria as well as trees that could possibly produce oxygen, I think I'll just settle on a handwave that the Touhou!Moon is different from the moon we know and Clownpiece's impurity has nothing to do with it. Unless some of you guys got a better explanation.
As I understand it, the Clownpiece Corps were on the Near Side of the Moon, not the Far Side - i.e. the Outside World.

It's great to hear that the translation effort is going along nicely. I am looking forward to finally playing this game in a way that I can understand what is going on.

Please though, lets not release an English patch in a state where things can be misinterpreted or if the translation is Google translate tier. Lets release something that we can be proud of, like ZUN would have.  :moogy:

Technically, the "released patch" will be automatically updated so that you can always have the most up to date translations. Also, anyone is free to help translate on thpatch.net
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 05:12:53 PM by DTM »

PK

  • Border of Whatever
With all due respect to the translation and his/her effort, I think I'll hold on with translating the endings into Polish so far. Especially since Clarste-senpai already gave us quick translations of most of the endings a while ago (Reimu Legacy, Marisa Legacy and Pointdevice and Sanae Legacy and Pointdevice), and it looks better than the one on thpatch.net.
So, the reason youkai couldn't interfere with the invasion is because
Spoiler:
they couldn't see or feel the vehicle or the rabbits
.
Also, seems like
Spoiler:
Yukari actually stole the occult ball (unless it disappeared on its own). I wonder if she's gonna use it in some way in the near future?

Raikaria

  • Do Tank Girls Dream...
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Eh, there's a lot of mythology, both Japanese and Chinese, tied in with this game. I don't know how you missed this, especially where Junko is concerned. But ultimately this complaint reads like "this isn't the game I wanted it to be" so ...

Junko's mythology basis is that her child was killed when Houyi shot down the suns. That would be cool and all... except no part of that legend says the sun fell on someone. So while Junko's motive is myth, Junko herself is not; which leads me to care very little about Junko [Also her rivalry being with Chang'e when it was Houyi who shot down the suns is also warped]. And when I don't care about Junko it's hard to find motivation to drive onwards. It's a personal problem, not a problem with the game. There's a difference in my drive to beat, say, Sukana [Descendant of Isshin] or Kaguya [The Bamboo Cutter Princess] or Eiki [The Yama] or Utusho [Basically an avatar of Yatagarasu] to beating Yuyuko; Byakuren or Junko.

I also play 14; 8; and 13 [Miko being Shōtoku outright] the most. My personal tastes and what I enjoy about the series is strongest in those games. [14 less so].

I have a somewhat similar problem with UFO. Byakuren herself isn't a mythological figure or really tied to one. Shou drives me through however being the Avatar of Bishamoten.

I'm in no way saying TH15 is bad. It's just... harder for me to muster up the drive. It FEELS more rewarding to me to beat a character with some great status who myths and legends exist about than someone like Junko.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 09:13:01 PM by Raikaria »


http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/tribute/
I don't even remember who put the above in my sig. [Wasn't me] Nor do I understand why I keep it here anymore.
Those two facts sum me up pretty well.