Author Topic: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.  (Read 239356 times)

Validon98

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #960 on: August 01, 2015, 12:42:44 AM »
No, you get a life fragment every time you earn the bonus instead of before where it was a bomb fragment for every time you earn the bonus (I assume it's still bomb fragments in Pointdevice). So it's not literally every five checkpoints unless you manage to earn the bonus at every checkpoint (good luck on that on lower difficulties too)
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Camilo113

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #961 on: August 01, 2015, 01:47:02 AM »
You're saying you get an extra life every 5 checkpoints? If that's the case this game is going to be a disaster. I can't even imagine what ZUN is thinking at this point.

Not an extra life but a life piece every 5 checkpoints. You need to collect 5 life pieces to get an extra life, which means you need to get 25 checkpoints to get your first extra life (via checkpoints I mean obviously); and all this considering you got the bonus points to actually get the reward life.

One exception is the Easy Mode in Legacy Mode respectively were you get a life piece in every checkpoint if you reach the bonus points.

I can't recall exactly how many checkpoints there are per stage, but I think it ranges between 9~12. Correct me if I'm wrong.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 02:02:46 AM by Camilo113 »

Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #962 on: August 01, 2015, 02:17:50 AM »
Interesting change about the life pieces.  Do you still gain extra lives when reaching certain score thresholds though?

ふねん1

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #963 on: August 01, 2015, 02:19:38 AM »
Not an extra life but a life piece every 5 checkpoints. You need to collect 5 life pieces to get an extra life, which means you need to get 25 checkpoints to get your first extra life (via checkpoints I mean obviously); and all this considering you got the bonus points to actually get the reward life.

One exception is the Easy Mode in Legacy Mode respectively were you get a life piece in every checkpoint if you reach the bonus points.

I can't recall exactly how many checkpoints there are per stage, but I think it ranges between 9~12. Correct me if I'm wrong.
The three stages in the original demo had 11, 12, and 14 chapters. The second half of the game is surely gonna have more chapters, both from stages and bosses, so if the system was modified like you described, it should provide a few extra lives throughout the game beyond lives from scoring. I'm personally waiting for the full version before I come back to this game, so I'll see what ZUN's final modifications turn out to be.
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Validon98

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #964 on: August 01, 2015, 02:59:08 AM »
Not an extra life but a life piece every 5 checkpoints. You need to collect 5 life pieces to get an extra life, which means you need to get 25 checkpoints to get your first extra life (via checkpoints I mean obviously); and all this considering you got the bonus points to actually get the reward life.

Where's the 25 coming from? 1 checkpoint with the required amount of graze * shooting down is one life piece, five life pieces is one life, so 5 checkpoints where you get the bonus for one life.

Interesting change about the life pieces.  Do you still gain extra lives when reaching certain score thresholds though?

I did a test playthrough on Legacy Normal earlier, and although I wasn't paying attention to my score much, I don't think I got any score-based lives, just ones from life piece gain. Someone correct me on this if I'm wrong.
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Plubio

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #965 on: August 01, 2015, 03:37:25 AM »
I did a test playthrough on Legacy Normal earlier, and although I wasn't paying attention to my score much, I don't think I got any score-based lives, just ones from life piece gain. Someone correct me on this if I'm wrong.

Checked it.
On the first demo getting 30,000,000 and 75,000,000 points would reward you an extra life ? this no longer happens.

Serela

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #966 on: August 01, 2015, 04:07:28 AM »
Yeah, Legacy Mode is going to have a lot of lives; it's usually pretty easy to get all the boss checkpoints, at least above Easy mode, even if half the stage ones are unlikely. ZUN specifically said the system may change before release though; he might make further lives take more pieces ala Ten Desires, or just make it take like 8 pieces for an extra life.

However, the next point is that the game is pretty hard compared to the others in the series as it's designed for Pointdevice mode; and when you have to start bombing attacks away, you're less likely to get the life piece from them. (Although, honestly, a -lot- of the boss attacks are graze fountains; it's to be seen how the later game will go, though)

Legacy Mode might end up like UFO where you combat highly difficult gameplay with an avalanche of lives and bombs if ZUN doesn't tweak it a little, though. But it's likely he will.
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ChronaSE

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #967 on: August 01, 2015, 04:23:22 AM »
Sounds better than the system used on DDC at least, in which just crossing the border line rewarded you with countless life and bomb pieces.

Plubio

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #968 on: August 01, 2015, 12:53:10 PM »
(Although, honestly, a -lot- of the boss attacks are graze fountains; it's to be seen how the later game will go, though).

To be honest, it's far more from only bosses attacks ? this game is pretty much based on graze, nearly EVERYTHING on stages is aimed at you (oh, btw, did you notice you can graze bullets more than once?).
And that's nice, Sanae's the best one this time. But I find the others especially painful to play.

And yep, pretty much a better system than DDC, not saying it wasn't bad tho, but this time it's less complex than UFO but you need some minimum skills, much more than just "bomb and go to the top of the stage" flaw DDC has.
Not a flaw at all, tho.

Raikaria

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #969 on: August 02, 2015, 06:45:59 AM »
And that's nice, Sanae's the best one this time. But I find the others especially painful to play.

In every game Sanae's been in she's either been the best [UFO] or good [TD; Reimu's certainly the easiest there]. I don't think Sanae's ever been a *weak* character; like Marisa can be sometimes.

You can usually count on Reimu have at least one solid shottype; Marisa usually having weaker ones unless her forward focus is that powerful [EoSD's Christmas Trees] and everyone else varies; except Sanae who is seemingly always solid at worst.

I'd say Sakuya is always solid given that I play Sakuya shottypes in every game that has Sakuya that I play; but that's probobly just me. I know a lot of people don't rate Sakuya in PCB outside of high score runs.


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Tengukami

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #970 on: August 02, 2015, 12:37:35 PM »
Well we get more news, not too reassuring but still..

http://kourindou.exblog.jp/23501149/

いやー、連日暑くてとろけそうです。
 そんなわけで東方Project 第15弾 東方紺珠伝 の体験版を公開します。

 東方紺珠伝 体験版ダウンロード

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 本格的な調整はこれからです。製品版と異なる可能性が高いのでご了承ください。

 さてと、最後の仕上げといきますか!

So, does anyone want to offer a translation of this, just to avoid any confusion about how this works and all? Because there seems to be some confusion.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Serela

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #971 on: August 02, 2015, 02:27:02 PM »
I know machine translators are awful, but in this case, they honestly get the job done fairly well. With paraphrasing-

"This should fix the bugs, but please tell me if it works correctly on your computer!"

-In Legacy Mode, you get life pieces instead of spellcard pieces now
-In Pointdevice Mode, there is now a limit to the power penalty from dying
-When you game over you get the title screen theme, but it's not a bug; it was omitted for the download size. The proper game over theme will play in the full version.

"By the way, the final product may be different from what you see here..."

There's nothing complicated about it; I think the life piece mechanic confusion was coming from people who were speculating more than they were using data from the demo itself. It doesn't help that the piece counter is still on the bombs, not lives, so you have to manually count your pieces :V
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Tengukami

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #972 on: August 02, 2015, 02:30:51 PM »
Thanks! Wasn't sure if I could trust Google.

One thing:
Quote
-In Pointdevice Mode, there is now a limit to the power penalty from dying

Am I understanding this right? The penalty is already pretty minuscule, like about -0.01 or something ridiculously low like that. Maybe he means a limit to how many times you get chipped away at when dying?

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Critz

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #973 on: August 02, 2015, 02:41:37 PM »
In every game Sanae's been in she's either been the best [UFO] or good [TD; Reimu's certainly the easiest there]. I don't think Sanae's ever been a *weak* character; like Marisa can be sometimes.
Except, TD Sanae is the worst of the four due to her lackluster damage output. She's got a very solid bomb in terms of damage and divine spirit collection and enhanced trance gain, but that's it. Reimu outclasses her as a spread-type option by virtue of dealing more damage and being all-around best character after Youmu. And Sanae's 12.3 incarnation is low-tier and very technical if that matters, lol. I still always play Sanae out of loyalty though, and she's great in UFO and LoLK. :3

You can usually count on Reimu have at least one solid shottype; Marisa usually having weaker ones unless her forward focus is that powerful [EoSD's Christmas Trees] and everyone else varies; except Sanae who is seemingly always solid at worst.
Marisa pretty much always gets the shaft in comparison to Reimu. She got limited to 2 bombs in PCB, saddled with Alice in IN, cannot compete with Reimu-Yukari in SA and finally she lost her piercing from TD onward (now Reisen  has it) and isn't even that impressive in terms of damage now, Master Spark being her sole redeeming feature (that also slows her down badly).

On the bright side, she's still got solid damage on her missile option in EoSD, great familiar set-up option in MoF, nice damage and laser piercing that's very useful in UFO and can actually compete with the brokenness of DDC's Reimu A and Sakuya A with the power of ♡Magic Absorber♡ . And she's always strong in fighters and Phantasmagorias.

I'd say Sakuya is always solid given that I play Sakuya shottypes in every game that has Sakuya that I play; but that's probobly just me. I know a lot of people don't rate Sakuya in PCB outside of high score runs.
PCB Sakuya A is good for survival as far as homing options go and has 4 bombs per life to burn, but is complete garbage for scoring. PCB Sakuya B is, on the other hand, a borderline gamebreaker - Marisa-tier damage output, wide shot that covers most of the screen when moving unfocused and solid range when focused, four bombs per life that do wonders for scoring with their clearing effect and  high cherry gain are nothing to scoff at - unless you need Reimu's smaller hitbox/longer deathbomb/slower movement perks.

On the other hand, IN Sakuya is outright garbage due to her nonexistent damage and so is DDC Sakuya B - who is shit at survival and only good for scoring due to her item-generating focus shot and her bomb that converts bullets to point items and let's you graze stuff. Meanwhile DDC Sakuya A is, as mentioned above, a gamebreaker due to damage, homing and double-shield bomb and her PoFV incarnation is both solid against other players and AI due to her EX-daggers. And she is pretty much top tier throughout the fighters due to her great bullet game and ridiculous pressure. :derp:
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 02:43:34 PM by Critz »

Serela

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #974 on: August 02, 2015, 02:50:42 PM »
Am I understanding this right? The penalty is already pretty minuscule, like about -0.01 or something ridiculously low like that. Maybe he means a limit to how many times you get chipped away at when dying?
I'm pretty sure he means the penalty maxes out at some point; I'm not sure where, but I imagine it might be when you're about at 3.00 power (so as to keep you from dipping down in power levels on an attack you're already so bad at you did 100 tries without winning)

However, there's no way I'm dying on an attack 50~100 times to test >_>; Maybe I'll get back to you on that in the full version when I get around to a lunatic run. (someone else will probably figure it out first)
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #975 on: August 02, 2015, 11:51:39 PM »
More ZUN twitter, from last night (Japan time) and a few minutes ago:

Quote
Huh, this is hard! It's ridiculously hard. Let's go with this, though. It really is lunacy up on the moon.

|-`).。oO(...well, I am balancing things based on Pointdevice Mode first and foremost, since Legacy Mode is meant to be an extra as far as game mechanics are concerned. Ah well.)

You'll need perseverance to clear it, but try tackling Pointdevice as the main mode first of all. :-)

Woke up, did a lot of fence-sitting.

The moon's become slightly more of a mild one, so perhaps I'll finish the balancing here. I think it's calmed down nicely enough if you're just aiming to clear the game. Whew, I'm beat!

I do usually lower the difficulty as the last part of the balancing. When I, as the creator, think "maybe I lowered it a little too much," it tends to be just about right, I think?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 01:04:40 AM by gilde »

Tengukami

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #976 on: August 03, 2015, 01:08:36 AM »
Ha, nice, Pointdevice has gotten pretty addictive. I am still curious about it's narrative role in the end.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Plubio

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #977 on: August 03, 2015, 01:36:46 AM »
I found hilarious he thinks the game is "ridiculously hard".
Oops, needs more testing.

Serela

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #978 on: August 03, 2015, 02:00:04 AM »
Well, when you balance the game around "infinite retries on all the attacks", it's kind of like making the cards Shoot The Bullet/Double Spoiler tier :V

It's interesting to hear about how he balances game difficulty when you consider overall, the attacks in the series seem to be getting harder as it goes on. SA and UFO are definitely a big step up from the earlier games in the series... and DDC is no joke either when it comes to attack difficulty on the higher ones (although you can get a lot of resources)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 02:04:12 AM by Selery »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Helepolis

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #979 on: August 03, 2015, 08:44:52 AM »
Heads up for posters, readers, lurkers and guests: As the opening post lacks proper updates in both screenshots and information, I will remake the thread once the full game is out with new screenshots and existing info + your usual BunBunMaru style reporting. Logically spoilers will be avoided for minimum of 24h.

Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #980 on: August 03, 2015, 12:11:56 PM »
Quote
Huh, this is hard! It's ridiculously hard. Let's go with this, though. It really is lunacy up on the moon.

Oh my Hakurei god! You know this game is going to be hard when even lunatic clearing ZUN admits to its difficulty.

ZUN's going full CAVE on our asses! I, however, approve of this increased level of bullet density (...Hit me harder please ZUN; I love it when you go all masochistic on us, I can take it!)  :3

I wonder how many more Touhou games after LoLK will it take before ZUN goes full Mushihimesama Futari Black Label god mode on us? Because as someone said above, ZUN appears to be increasing the difficulty with every game. Imagine a Touhou game finally taking the title of the worlds hardest game to complete.  :]

I have been wondering what the 1CC ending to this game will be like once we vanquish the big bad on the moon. Will we be getting our regular run-of-the-mill happy go lucky endings that we usually get where the protagonists and antagonists have tea at the end?... Or perhaps we may end up getting a more darker, serious ending?

Since we have a giant mechanical spider going around Gensokyo "purifying" everything in its path, the ending might be that Gensokyo has taken heavy damage from the invasion attempt and the humans and Youkai band together in the aftermath to rebuild... all while contemplating that fighting and war really all just leads to misery... and the Hakurei shrine is destroyed again!  :]

Giant mechanical spider...seriously, the Jon Peters parallel here just gets me every time.  :V

Tengukami

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #981 on: August 03, 2015, 12:19:53 PM »
ZUN appears to be increasing the difficulty with every game.

Wow, this is not the impression I get, at all. Seems more to me like the overall difficulty across the games go through uneven peaks and valleys rather than a steady incline. And that's leaving aside what skill sets are being challenged for which particular game. I mean, DDC harder than SA or UFO? Sure hasn't been my experience anyway.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #982 on: August 03, 2015, 12:36:24 PM »
Hmmm... well the games seem to be picking up the difficulty pace steadily to me at least.

SA was my first 1CC. I had more trouble with SA than I did with UFO. The easiest Windows game to me was EoSD since the lack of an onscreen hitbox limited the complex Danmaku opportunity. DDC I cleared once with Reimu B but Seija and Sakuna were pretty tough to me in terms of bosses. I guess I'm a weird one though because I consider IN to be one tough cookie when other people consider it one of the easiest.

Cheers to LoLK, and cheers to a good ZUN difficulty curb stomp to our faces!  :D   

Serela

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #983 on: August 03, 2015, 01:04:20 PM »
DDC is certainly easier to clear overall, however, when you look at it this way; DDC has a lot of spellcards that on high difficulties are just crazy. You can bomb past them, but daaaang, there aren't many cards like that in pre-PoFV imo. (They do exist, like Lifespring Infinity (or whatever replaces Swallow's Cowrie Shell because that sounds wrong) and Scarlet Meister, but even those are the final boss's semifinal cards)

Even on Lunatic I think just about all the spellcards in the earlier games are very doable, just perhaps a bit risky to not bomb, especially pre-stage-6 cards. On DDC they mostly qualify as "if I'm lucky maybe I'll go 8 seconds before I bomb", and I couldn't imagine trying to capture Sukuna's "Inchling's Path" or "Shining Needle Sword" in a 1cc run on normal mode, and even if you give Seija a pass for being gimmicky her spellcards on that high of a difficulty are probably too much for most people, good at Touhou or not << That's harder to quantify though and she might not be bad if you just grind her cards in practice mode

TD is let out of the difficulty loop because ZUN specifically designed it as a lower difficulty game so that instead of the high-resource games we'd been getting, we'd have a low-resource one.

In other news, those people who go around doing Lunatic No-Bomb runs of games because they're Better Than You, I'm curious how impossible Legacy Mode LoLK will be for them :V:V:V
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 01:07:40 PM by Selery »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Tengukami

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #984 on: August 03, 2015, 01:33:36 PM »
DDC is certainly easier to clear overall, however, when you look at it this way; DDC has a lot of spellcards that on high difficulties are just crazy. You can bomb past them, but daaaang, there aren't many cards like that in pre-PoFV imo. (They do exist, like Lifespring Infinity (or whatever replaces Swallow's Cowrie Shell because that sounds wrong) and Scarlet Meister, but even those are the final boss's semifinal cards)

Even on Lunatic I think just about all the spellcards in the earlier games are very doable, just perhaps a bit risky to not bomb, especially pre-stage-6 cards. On DDC they mostly qualify as "if I'm lucky maybe I'll go 8 seconds before I bomb", and I couldn't imagine trying to capture Sukuna's "Inchling's Path" or "Shining Needle Sword" in a 1cc run on normal mode, and even if you give Seija a pass for being gimmicky her spellcards on that high of a difficulty are probably too much for most people, good at Touhou or not << That's harder to quantify though and she might not be bad if you just grind her cards in practice mode

TD is let out of the difficulty loop because ZUN specifically designed it as a lower difficulty game so that instead of the high-resource games we'd been getting, we'd have a low-resource one.

This seems like using very selective and decontextualized criteria to fit the hypothesis to me, but then again "game difficulty" has always been at least somewhat subjective, based on the dozen or so polls we've done on the subject in HME. A whole range of answers, with a few games most likely to pop up on the Easiest and Hardest ends of the scale.

And yeah, I too will be very curious to see some of our more skilled players take on Legacy Mode in all kinds of ways.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #985 on: August 03, 2015, 03:23:45 PM »
Heads up for posters, readers, lurkers and guests: As the opening post lacks proper updates in both screenshots and information, I will remake the thread once the full game is out with new screenshots and existing info + your usual BunBunMaru style reporting. Logically spoilers will be avoided for minimum of 24h.

There is not new info on the game, but if you wish so....

Serela

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #986 on: August 03, 2015, 08:20:37 PM »
This seems like using very selective and decontextualized criteria to fit the hypothesis to me, but then again "game difficulty" has always been at least somewhat subjective,
Well, I didn't want to go into too much depth, but to put it simply; when I went back and replayed PCB on Lunatic after having been used to ZUN's newer games, there was a big general feeling of "holy crap most of this is so much easier than... everything after MoF".
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Zil

Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #987 on: August 03, 2015, 08:55:32 PM »
When DDC came out people were raving about it being harder than UFO, just as people are doing for LoLK now. However, I think most lunatic players currently see DDC as average. The stage 3 boss is hard but the stage 5 and 6 (especially 6) bosses are easier than usual. LoLK so far seems to have quite a few patterns that can be memorized (more than half of all boss patterns I think), which by their nature are hard at first but become easy with practice. Puzzle / trick patterns are about what I'd expect if ZUN says he's "balancing" around pointdevice. I think forcing the player to retry until they solve something tricky makes more sense than forcing them to retry until they luck out on something ridiculous, and that's exactly what we already see happening with Doremi (aside from the one non spell of hers, which is indeed ridiculous.)

In any case I don't think the games are getting harder. Seems all over the place to me.

Maple

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #988 on: August 03, 2015, 11:14:12 PM »
I take it this way:
SA is the hardest going by patterns themselves alone. Then you also have bombs directly tied to firepower which is somewhat discouraging.
UFO is there, but the difficulty goes up when trying to collect the UFOs while matching the colors and dodging the bullets.
DDC has some dense patterns, but it can be mitigated if you know how to abuse the Point of Collection/Item gathering mechanic for bombs and lives. Even without getting there, bombs are given like candy (in exchange of losing them all when dying).

Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #989 on: August 04, 2015, 02:06:35 PM »
I'm still waiting for ZUN to go full CAVE on us... or at least make a game that Jaimers91 will at least contemplate throwing his keyboard/joystick/whatever in frustration.

I believe legacy mode for LoLK is a step in this direction... and I like it : 3