Author Topic: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.  (Read 348082 times)

Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #780 on: May 26, 2015, 02:18:12 PM »
Amaterasu is actually somewhat likely if you know the history between her and her brother, a simple change from never wanting to see him again to wanting to ruin his paradise sounds pretty fitting.

I think it's pretty unlikely though, simply because Touhou likes to keep the scale relatively low. Think about Utsuho. She's "the power of the sun" and is all super impressive and all that, but ultimately she's just borrowing a bit of power from one of Amaterasu's servants. Touhou just doesn't deal directly with most of the really big names in Japanese mythology, and frankly that feels intentional to me. We get a ninetailed fox, but not Tamano no Mae herself. We get the descendent of Issun-boushi. There are some big names like Ibuki, but she's shown as an incredibly dangerous person who we're only safe from because she doesn't feel like it. Kaguya is sort of an exception, but Tsukuyomi himself (herself?) is deliberate kept in the background of the whole moon saga.

The biggest god we've met personally would Omoikane (Eirin), but she's both hiding behind a pseudonym and holding back out of respect, with the implication that she could accomplish way more if she actually had a goal other than maintaining the status quo. Having Amaterasu herself getting involved just seems like it would be way out of our protagonists' league and not a very Touhou-like story. Recall that Yorihime is considered ridiculously overpowered, and her power is just to briefly channel the power of better gods.

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #781 on: May 26, 2015, 02:25:19 PM »
Easy
Well, this should take just one bite.
Normal
Firm and crunchy.
Hard
Your jaw will get tired from chewing this.
Lunatic
Please do not eat.
I'm now convinced that one of the bosses is a personified mochi.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 04:03:40 AM by game2011 »

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #782 on: May 26, 2015, 07:46:43 PM »
I think it's pretty unlikely though, simply because Touhou likes to keep the scale relatively low. Think about Utsuho. She's "the power of the sun" and is all super impressive and all that, but ultimately she's just borrowing a bit of power from one of Amaterasu's servants. Touhou just doesn't deal directly with most of the really big names in Japanese mythology, and frankly that feels intentional to me. We get a ninetailed fox, but not Tamano no Mae herself. We get the descendent of Issun-boushi. There are some big names like Ibuki, but she's shown as an incredibly dangerous person who we're only safe from because she doesn't feel like it. Kaguya is sort of an exception, but Tsukuyomi himself (herself?) is deliberate kept in the background of the whole moon saga.

The biggest god we've met personally would Omoikane (Eirin), but she's both hiding behind a pseudonym and holding back out of respect, with the implication that she could accomplish way more if she actually had a goal other than maintaining the status quo. Having Amaterasu herself getting involved just seems like it would be way out of our protagonists' league and not a very Touhou-like story. Recall that Yorihime is considered ridiculously overpowered, and her power is just to briefly channel the power of better gods.

Hence why the stakes are higher in this game overall.
Also why the game has that feel of a pc98 game, the protags are actually in danger here.
Yorihime is considered overpowered not simply because she can channel better gods, it's because she's skilled at it and can use it to adapt to situations that seem impossible, right along with her own personal skills in swordsmanship which is very impressive.

Utsuho was never really any danger in the first place. She wouldn't have made it out of hell IIRC.

I don't see how fighting Amaterasu is any different from fighting Shinki, who may or may not be based on Lucifer.
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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #783 on: May 27, 2015, 02:31:41 AM »
Quote
I'm now convinced that one of the bosses is a personified mochi.

ZUN has been serving us a few fish dishes as of late (that giant catfish, Wakasagihime). Chowing down on some desert sounds appealing to clean the palate.

By the way, inB4 stage 4 or 5 boss is eating the moons peaches... because this food theme is really starting to sound like a thing.

Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #784 on: May 27, 2015, 03:06:56 AM »
I don't see how fighting Amaterasu is any different from fighting Shinki, who may or may not be based on Lucifer.

The PC-98 games were made before ZUN had even started thinking about the setting. For example, there wasn't a place called "Gensokyo" yet. Setting aside the discussion of whether they're canon at all, or subcanon or whatever, the way ZUN did things back then is quite simply not the way he does things now. If we're revisiting PC-98 locations and themes, the purpose of that is to flesh them out and better integrate them into the modern idea of Gensokyo, not to blindly follow the nonsense he wrote for the older games.

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #785 on: May 27, 2015, 03:17:16 AM »
By the way, inB4 stage 4 or 5 boss is eating the moons peaches... because this food theme is really starting to sound like a thing.
Indeed. Because the Lunar Capital is similar to ancient China, we might get moon cakes too. Then, at the end, everyone drinks Lunarian sake.

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #786 on: May 27, 2015, 04:04:56 AM »
The PC-98 games were made before ZUN had even started thinking about the setting. For example, there wasn't a place called "Gensokyo" yet.
Touhou 4's Japanese subtitle is called "Gensokyo," though I'm not sure if that is intentional...

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #787 on: May 27, 2015, 04:16:44 AM »
The PC-98 games were made before ZUN had even started thinking about the setting. For example, there wasn't a place called "Gensokyo" yet. Setting aside the discussion of whether they're canon at all, or subcanon or whatever, the way ZUN did things back then is quite simply not the way he does things now. If we're revisiting PC-98 locations and themes, the purpose of that is to flesh them out and better integrate them into the modern idea of Gensokyo, not to blindly follow the nonsense he wrote for the older games.

Still, doesn't really counter the idea of Amaterasu, god fought in a lethal environment was kinda the point of that example.
Who's to say Amaterasu is supposed to be leagues above? Because she's famous? I mean ZUN could make her boss fight be pretty hard, sure.
But that just makes things fun.
Either way though, point device is literal plot armor, so her being leagues about the main protags shouldn't matter much.
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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #788 on: May 27, 2015, 04:30:09 AM »
Touhou 4's Japanese subtitle is called "Gensokyo," though I'm not sure if that is intentional...
I think it's much more likely that he recycled the name later because he liked it. He still used "deep in the mountains in a certain eastern country" at that point.

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #789 on: May 27, 2015, 04:34:44 AM »
By the way, inB4 stage 4 or 5 boss is eating the moons peaches... because this food theme is really starting to sound like a thing.

In the end, we all know that that was the final boss's true goal. Just to get all the peaches for herself.

Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #790 on: May 27, 2015, 05:54:14 AM »
Quote
Still, doesn't really counter the idea of Amaterasu, god fought in a lethal environment was kinda the point of that example.
Who's to say Amaterasu is supposed to be leagues above? Because she's famous? I mean ZUN could make her boss fight be pretty hard, sure.

It is mainly because she is the ultimate god as far as Japanese religion is concerned. I doubt someone so prolific would be a Touhou enemy. It is far more likely to be Tsukuyomi than it is for Amaterasu to make an appearance.
Unlike the likes of Shinki or Sariel, which isn't Japan's main religion, this is.
The best example I can think of using Christianity as example, since that would be the main religion for a lot of English speakers, is the touhou character would be facing God.

It could theoretically happen, but yeah, I highly doubt it.

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #791 on: May 27, 2015, 06:28:19 AM »
It is mainly because she is the ultimate god as far as Japanese religion is concerned. I doubt someone so prolific would be a Touhou enemy. It is far more likely to be Tsukuyomi than it is for Amaterasu to make an appearance.
Unlike the likes of Shinki or Sariel, which isn't Japan's main religion, this is.
The best example I can think of using Christianity as example, since that would be the main religion for a lot of English speakers, is the touhou character would be facing God.

It could theoretically happen, but yeah, I highly doubt it.

Not necessarily.
Amaterasu as far as I understand became that "ultimate god" over time, I could be wrong about this.
But judging from what we do know about her now, this is likely the time period where she shares the skies with her brother.
She does all that fancy stuff after this.
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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #792 on: May 27, 2015, 11:17:23 AM »
It is mainly because she is the ultimate god as far as Japanese religion is concerned. I doubt someone so prolific would be a Touhou enemy. It is far more likely to be Tsukuyomi than it is for Amaterasu to make an appearance.
Unlike the likes of Shinki or Sariel, which isn't Japan's main religion, this is.
The best example I can think of using Christianity as example, since that would be the main religion for a lot of English speakers, is the touhou character would be facing God.

It could theoretically happen, but yeah, I highly doubt it.

Isn't Tenshi sort of like God though?



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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #793 on: May 27, 2015, 11:40:21 AM »
Isn't Tenshi sort of like God though?
Celestials aren't gods, they are some kind of super-pure hermits with no attachment to desires that get to live in Heaven.
Tenshi didn't even earn it, not even Gensokyo is immune to nepotism.

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #794 on: May 27, 2015, 12:13:20 PM »
Yeah, Tenshi is pretty much a textbook spoiled rich brat. More like Paris Hilton than a deity of any kind.

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #795 on: May 27, 2015, 04:23:46 PM »
Tenshi is an angel.

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #796 on: May 27, 2015, 04:45:38 PM »
Yeah, Tenshi is pretty much a textbook spoiled rich brat. More like Paris Hilton than a deity of any kind.
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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #797 on: May 27, 2015, 05:32:45 PM »
Tenshi is an angel.
Not the "angel" depicted in christianism, but more like a "heaven person" to be precise.

Unlike the good people who deserved their place "up there", her whole clan got sent straight up to heavens for all of the hard work they did, so as a human who became a celestial out of the blue, she doesn't have the same discipline that the hermits who managed to get in there and the people who got there through their good deeds have. Let's just say she got there through family connections, and is obviously not very pleased with her lifestyle. Maybe she is just in her rebellious phase.

More like Paris Hil-
No.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 05:38:38 PM by Suspicious person »

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #798 on: May 27, 2015, 06:57:41 PM »
My post was more or less a joke (about
Spoiler:
her name
), but yeah, even officially she's referred to as "fallen" celestial.

Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #799 on: May 27, 2015, 07:55:19 PM »
Speaking of Heaven, if Heaven is above the clouds, then why don't the heroines need to go through Heaven to go to the Moon? In Tenshi's Last Word, you can clearly see space.
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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #800 on: May 27, 2015, 11:55:01 PM »
Bhava-agra isn't above the clouds, it's at the summit of the world. Metaphorically speaking. So in a land of metaphors, you can get there by climbing an actual mountain I guess.

Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #801 on: May 27, 2015, 11:58:16 PM »
Bhava-agra isn't above the clouds, it's at the summit of the world. Metaphorically speaking. So in a land of metaphors, you can get there by climbing an actual mountain I guess.

So the Youkai Mountain's summit is basically metaphorically speaking a portal to Heaven?
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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #802 on: May 28, 2015, 01:54:09 AM »
Might be stretching the metaphor a little thin. And I think Kanako might have something to say about that before you get there.

e: And sorry, Tenshi fans, if the comparison to Paris Hilton rubs you the wrong way, but however jokingly it was intended there's some truth to it, insofar as both only got to a point of luxury thanks to family. And then proceeded to spread ruin in their wakes out of sheer boredom. Tenshi is the 1%, deal w/ it.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 01:56:49 AM by Tengukami »

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #803 on: May 28, 2015, 04:00:41 AM »
Eh? That's not a good metaphor. The people in heaven aren't exactly good guys either. It seems fairly clear that they look down upon Tenshi because of how she got there.
Their attitude is more like Lunarians, they look down on people below them. In Tenshi's case, she doesn't understand this.

The better analogy would be, Tenshi's part of the 1%, but doesn't understand the rules or ways of the 1%. That isn't necessarily a good or a bad thing.

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #804 on: May 28, 2015, 07:49:44 AM »
I got no opinion of her fellow celestials. I'm saying she's spoiled, entitled, and made life hard for everyone else out of boredom. Last time this was brought up people actually cited this as part of her charm. You don't have to take this super literally.

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #805 on: May 28, 2015, 04:48:20 PM »
I'm saying she's spoiled, entitled, and made life hard for everyone else out of boredom.
Welp, she is, I guess, but I don't think this is only because she got goods without effort, but also because she is more or less a teenager.
Spoiler:
I'm a teenager, and I have my "spoiled brat" moments from time to time when I tend to act like jerk to people for no good reason (or for something trivial).
Thus, she does that because "lol, screwing with people is funny", which is very common for teenagers.
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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #806 on: May 28, 2015, 07:57:31 PM »
ZUN has been serving us a few fish dishes as of late (that giant catfish, Wakasagihime). Chowing down on some desert sounds appealing to clean the palate.

By the way, inB4 stage 4 or 5 boss is eating the moons peaches... because this food theme is really starting to sound like a thing.

I guess ZUN has been really hungry while making games lately... Please Eat More ZUN!

Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #807 on: May 29, 2015, 04:54:57 AM »
Quote
I guess ZUN has been really hungry while making games lately... Please Eat More ZUN!

Yeeaaap! ZUN is a pretty skinny man if you have seen pictures of him. Think of all the work he must put into making those games, coding the danmaku and perfecting it, drawing the characters, designing, fixing the bugs etc. Sitting on a chair all that time, how douse he NOT put on weight?

At least we can have confidence that he will never go thristy!  :P

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #808 on: May 29, 2015, 02:59:36 PM »
Remember how Drake gave that deep explanation for why Reisen's species was listed as Human? Well, sometimes, an error is just an error.

The other LoLK-relevant point I noticed was that ZUN noted he might not be able to finish before Summer Comiket. If this actually happens, it would be the first time he released a trial and didn't provide the full game by the next Summer Comiket.

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #809 on: May 29, 2015, 10:31:31 PM »
Yup I noticed that earlier this morning, oh well. I stand by my reasoning and note that I've always acknowledged the possibility of error!

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