Author Topic: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.  (Read 347683 times)

Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #210 on: April 24, 2015, 10:39:38 AM »
On Sakuya's profile, under Relationships > Residents of Eientei. Speaking of, I went ahead and added a citation needed note to it...

The wording of it seems like it might be a left over Tosiaki edit that was never caught and thus should probably be deleted. While Tosiaki wouldn't go so far as purposefully lie about ZUN stating something. hearing "He said ZUN said" and thinking that just means "ZUN said" on the other hand is quite likely (especially since a lot of what Tosiaki did was just translate speculation and un-sourced stuff from Japan's wiki equivalent).

Maybe I'll look into that this weekend if no one else does.  I'm lazy in my old age.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 10:43:17 AM by Tiamat »

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #211 on: April 24, 2015, 11:24:26 AM »
The original quote was from a BBS message. I knew I had read what it actually said before, but somehow I never realized that this misconception even existed. It should be removed because that's not what it says at all.

Quote
設定的な質問は許されるのかわかりませんが?
ネタバレ回避のために、えらい迂遠な言い回しをしますがご容赦。
咲夜を見てひどく驚く彼女が驚いた理由についてなのですが、
それって紅魔郷登場時の咲夜の目の色と関係があったりするのでしょうか?
今回のトップ絵も然り?。
Quote
防災の日 投稿者 ZUN@管理人
>咲夜を見てひどく驚く彼女が驚いた理由についてなのですが、
それは一つのゲームになる位長いので割愛。
目の色はゲームを遊んでいただければわかりますよ。

The question was actually about whether the statement in Eirin's profile was related to why Sakuya's eyes are red both in EoSD and in ZUN's most recent drawing for 3 million hits (http://www16.big.or.jp/~zun/pic/top/top040830.jpg).
ZUN's answer is that "It would become about an entire game's worth to explain [the line] so I didn't. About the eye color, perhaps you can understand by playing through the game."

The accepted explanation in the fandom for the line is the Sakuyahime explanation. As for the answer to the actual question, ZUN is saying that Sakuya's eyes really did also turn red from madness after looking at the real moon, and he had drawn the picture soon after IN was released (2004/09/03).

And lastly, I can source this all back to his old BBS based on the relation to the 3000000-hit picture.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040905235851/http://www16.big.or.jp/~zun/cgi-bin/bbs/minibbs.cgi
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 11:27:57 AM by Drake »

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #212 on: April 24, 2015, 11:28:21 AM »
Doesn't mean everything it says cannot be trusted.  You can't, like, accuse it of being unreliable and lying when it says the Earth is round, can't you?  It's still one of the best sources of information for first timers of certain subjects.?
During my Uni life, if we cited Wiki sources, we received -1 point penalty on our mark.

Anyway, I said 'don't blindly trust'. That means if someone is written on the wiki, doesn't mean it is necessary truth or false. Unless the information is verified and checked based on actual sources or solid proof, it will just remain 'available information'.

Slight OT: I had an interesting discussion on IRC with someone regarding PMiSS. Person's argument was that PMiSS != canon material, because it is written from Akyuu's point of view and analysis. I first argued it has to be canon because ZUN said so, but the actual point was that it remains Akyuu family's history. As there are no other "sources" to gauge the Touhou's, it is our only available information. Therefore, PMiSS isn't necessary the absolute truth regarding character personality. Neither is SoPM. And perhaps even Grimmoire of Marisa can be considered questionable.

Does this mean we should reject everything on Wiki? No. Of course not. That is how it goes in the world of science, someone concludes and it remains "valid" until it is proven otherwise or perhaps even empowered/strengthened.

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #213 on: April 24, 2015, 11:40:47 AM »
As for that point on PMiSS (and most other works), they're very obviously canon material, but the ranking of evidence is what's important to keep in mind, and that can get complicated. ZUN simply saying something himself might have high precedence, but there's also the problem where if he says something off the cuff, he might not have thought about it too hard. Because of this, what he writes down without a character narrator tends to be quite strong. For another seemingly-strong kind of evidence, there are character actions and events that actually take place. These are generally regarded as very reliable, but even this is somewhat affected by which work it's in -- ZUN writes in different flavors for different works, and on top of this things that appear in manga can be affected by seemingly harmless artist choices that fans run off with (cough stuff in ssib).

Where works like PMiSS and SoPM rank, is that they're being fed through the lens of Akyuu, and so narration is done with this in mind. It's also being edited in-universe by Yukari, and so this has to be kept in mind too. However, if ZUN is writing down information about a character, the intention is to disseminate information about the character. The books aren't just ZUN playing a joke by having a whole book where Akyuu just writes down whatever she feels like, that's incredibly pointless. The main purpose is to give information, and as such you can still think of it just as valid as anything else ZUN would say; it's simply colored through the lens of a character's perspective, and that gives it depth as a book on top of just being a raw encyclopedia. Yes, you have to be able to figure out what is being affected by that lens, but big deal, that's part of the fun.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 11:43:41 AM by Drake »

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #214 on: April 24, 2015, 01:03:14 PM »
and on top of this things that appear in manga can be affected by seemingly harmless artist choices that fans run off with (cough stuff in ssib)

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #215 on: April 24, 2015, 01:33:03 PM »
During my Uni life, if we cited Wiki sources, we received -1 point penalty on our mark.

...because you're expected to cite the sources provided by the wiki, not the wiki itself.

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #216 on: April 24, 2015, 01:36:06 PM »
...because you're expected to cite the sources provided by the wiki, not the wiki itself.

Exactly, which is difficult to do on the Touhou wiki if you can't read Japanese; you just have to trust the translations of the cites are accurate (with a pinch of salt I guess).

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #217 on: April 24, 2015, 02:18:46 PM »
Ya know, I've been putting some thinking into what this new system is, and I wanted to throw out my thoughts:

Looking at the picture, the boss is still getting shot and has a timer with the Chapter Bonus stuff, so I'm thinking it'll be independent of the game itself. I'm thinking it'll be like a Supernatural Barrier where you earn points by grazing and and shooting down stuff and you earn a bonus when it expires or you bomb/get hit, which would make scoring a bit of a different trek.

Of course, my initial thought could be fun too; ZUB Moon Bunny Rushes that can be triggered during normal gameplay.

Though I am interested in what that English text says at the bottom of Reisen's profile. It almost looks like "Previous Level Weak" at first glance, but it's alittle too blurry to make out.

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #218 on: April 24, 2015, 02:40:13 PM »
It's just whatever english title he gave to the game mode.

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #219 on: April 24, 2015, 02:40:57 PM »
Quote
First of all, everyone who read SSiB knows the moon seas are composed of real water in Touhou. Or more accurately, the seas in the "fantasy" version of the moon are, because that's how people imagined it.
I know that already.

Quote
During my Uni life, if we cited Wiki sources, we received -1 point penalty on our mark.
Not in my classes, as far as I'm concerned.  Whatever the case is, it's pretty much the first place people go to whenever they want information on something they don't know.

Isn't it funny how the most convenient site for information is constantly passed off as a site full of lies, even though there are moderators there keeping things in check?  It seems to me that nobody will miss Wikipedia at all when that site one day closes down for good.

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #220 on: April 24, 2015, 03:00:07 PM »
Re: game mode

The difficulty level "Crescent" (English word) is to the  bottom right. The central prompt is basically "Flawless Mode". It's probably an official alternate challenge mode, related to the disabled player lives.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 03:02:35 PM by cuc »
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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #221 on: April 24, 2015, 04:13:23 PM »
Speculation time!

If this so-called "Flawless Mode" actually involves disabling of lives, there's probably going to be some sort of secret that gets unlocked by completing the game with it set. What this secret will be is completely up to the man himself.

Personally, I want to to be some Phantasm-like stage where you fight
Spoiler:
Yorihime
or a similarly overpowered boss.

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #222 on: April 27, 2015, 03:39:56 AM »
I'd like to point out a few things:

Re: Lunarian + water-themed plot theory, Konohana-Sakuyahime is a water deity, according to Keine. If we consider the mallet, (sentient) rice cake, moon rabbit enemy, and connection to the moon, it's possible---as previous posters mentioned---that Chang'e is involved or relevant. If she is, then we would have a connection with water and (her presumable) immortality, i.e., the sisters Sakuyahime and Iwanagahime, goddess of immortality. Interestingly, Yatsugatake, Gensokyo's highest point and where the latter resides, would be somewhat unaffected if the land were to be flooded.

Re: Theme of time, especially the past, and Lunatic Kingdom; I'll speculate that the Lunatic Kingdom was the Lunar Capital. Eirin said in the first chapter of CiLR that "[...] after Princess Kaguya's great crime and subsequent exile to Earth, the moon changed enormously," which, to me, hints at great political upheavals. Also, the major events that happened during this era, e.g., Yukari's invasion and Kaguya's exile, became catalysts for subsequent ones, i.e., Eirin's betrayal, Mokou's immortality, IN, SSiB (+ relevant parts of Bougetsushou), and possibly one more (LoLK?). From a certain perspective, one could think of these as the Old Kingdom's "legacy."

A minor thought: if time manipulation is somehow involved, and the moon's power is to bring back the past, then Eirin's counter of enabling one to experience the future makes sense (to me, at least *sweatdrops*).

Another minor (cracky) thought: one of LoLK's spoiler for ULiL, following the moon + past + water route, is that Iwakasa's men died either by spontaneous human combustion, or by a fiery being from which Mokou got her power.... On further thought, it could have been both... hmm...



Before, my intuition kept on telling me that ZUN would soon return to his moon saga, but I always thought that it was just my wishful thinking. It appears that I need to give my guts (heh) more credit than I thought. :V I also find it fascinating that, prior to this, there have been significant moon-related occurrences, e.g., TARC Miscellaneous Questions thread's moon discussions and Hifuu Club's episode. In conclusion, I'm very happy with this announcement. (More brain food for me!)

(I wanted to post this days ago, but stuff happened. Oh well, better late than never.)

Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #223 on: April 27, 2015, 04:18:37 AM »
What color will Sanae's eyes be this time?

Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #224 on: April 27, 2015, 12:44:58 PM »
I noticed that the Japanese title ends in the character 伝, the same as Highly Responsive to Prayers's Japanese title did. How fitting for the 20th anniversary of Touhou.

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #225 on: April 27, 2015, 11:46:13 PM »
So, ZUN said that the demo will be pretty much a last-minute release with (probably) home-burned disks and that speculation from screenshots is basically pointless. Now, did he said if the demo will be a  (more or less) accurate approximation of the final game (gameplay-wise)?

Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #226 on: April 29, 2015, 08:07:17 AM »
I really hope that Zun isn't going to rush this game in an attempt to try and get it finished before the end of 2015 because of "20th year anniversary" pressure being put on him. To many games these days are being released in an unfinished state due to impossibly strict deadlines placed on them by various influences.

Great example: Sonic the hedgehog 2006. That game was suppose to be an anniversary release for the franchise but due to a huge rush to get it released before the end of the year... well, it became one of the worst Sonic games of all.

Him rushing to get this demo out isn't a good sign, especially if this game is going to have an overhauled system implemented.

Take it easy Zun-Sempai! Release the game in 2016 if it's not ready. We are prepared to wait for greatness (I am, anyway)!

Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #227 on: April 29, 2015, 11:23:41 AM »
I think it's pretty much guaranteed that he's releasing it at Summer Comiket. Like, that's not even in question. He wouldn't be releasing the demo now if that wasn't his plan. He certainly isn't going to take an entire extra year on it.

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #228 on: April 29, 2015, 01:07:59 PM »
I think it's pretty much guaranteed that he's releasing it at Summer Comiket. Like, that's not even in question. He wouldn't be releasing the demo now if that wasn't his plan. He certainly isn't going to take an entire extra year on it.

To be honest I agree with this statement. I mean, he's done this before with the main games and I don't see why he would step away from the usual schedule that he sets himself. ;w;"
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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #229 on: April 29, 2015, 01:54:16 PM »
Him rushing to get this demo out isn't a good sign, especially if this game is going to have an overhauled system implemented.
Doesn't matter if the demo is rushed, because it won't be exactly the same as the final version anyway.

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #230 on: April 29, 2015, 02:20:18 PM »
Doesn't matter if the demo is rushed, because it won't be exactly the same as the final version anyway.

Releasing a rushed game, whether demo or full, can leave a bad impression of the creator (especially a famous one). It feels like the developer is trying to conform to his own schedule and to make the game solely for a "memorable moment" and clump everything together for only basic structures rather than putting effort in making a full one.

Sometimes, it's best to break the "memorable moment" schedule now for even greater moment later.

Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #231 on: April 29, 2015, 02:24:56 PM »
Historically it seems ZUN really likes intense work sessions, and is able to produce quality in a reasonably short time. Some people just need strict deadlines I guess, doubly so in Japanese overworking culture.

Disclaimer: this isn't healthy in the long run, and I don't personally condone "crunch times". Hoping ZUN doesn't burn himself out and is having fun.
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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #232 on: April 29, 2015, 03:05:29 PM »
Releasing a rushed game, whether demo or full, can leave a bad impression of the creator (especially a famous one).
And while it's true that demos determine the impression of the final product, demo players are also expected to be smart and "think bigger." Just because you come across a game breaking glitch in the demo doesn't mean it will still be in the final version.  When playing a demo, the gameplay itself determining whether or not you will like the final product is one thing, but it's not right to instantly dislike a game and believe that the final product will be bad just because you run across some glitches in the demo.  One has to realize that the demo isn't complete and is likely to have oddities that will more than likely be fixed in the final version.

So if you play the demo and don't think you will like the final product because the gameplay doesn't suit your taste?  That's fine.  But you come across glitches and instantly say you will not like the final product because of those alone?  That's not the best reason for disliking a game.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 03:38:43 PM by game2011 »

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #233 on: May 01, 2015, 01:38:27 AM »
What the Touhou 9 playable character list looks like at a fresh install:


The PoFV characters are separated into 4 categories, which is obvious when you are actually beating the game to unlock them: 5 protagonist types, 4(+2) minor/weak characters, 3 debuting strong characters, and 2 debuting endbosses.

Also note which characters' temperaments Komachi had read before she met Tenshi. I'd venture to say, she visited these characters because she considered them her peers (which does not guarantee Komachi will be playable again any soon).

I wonder whether the next batch of playable characters will include Satori, Captain Murasa or Seiga - Stage 4 bosses being as important as Stage 5 was a thing during the SA-TD period.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 01:49:44 AM by cuc »
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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #234 on: May 01, 2015, 01:59:29 AM »
You're saying it like LoLK was supposed to be some hidden Phantasmagoria. Not that I wouldn't love it to death.
As for demo rush concerns - I *do* have my fair share of those as well, since even if it's a demo, ZUN has to make the core system for us to check out now anyway. Should he have a schedule slip, I fear he could end up not implementing everything he intended to and afterwards consider it too awkward to make changes between demo and full version that are so huge that the full version is a completely different game altogether... even if those would be welcome.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 02:01:26 AM by Critz »

Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #235 on: May 01, 2015, 05:43:28 AM »
Komachi being playable would be strange and great. She is a stage 5 equivalent, more or less.

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #236 on: May 01, 2015, 02:54:52 PM »
Assuming that nobody said this yet, the mid-boss's spell card in one of the screenshots has the word "eagle" in it, so we can assume that she is a/n eagle/bird demon?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 03:29:45 PM by game2011 »

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #237 on: May 01, 2015, 03:04:58 PM »
Her sprite strongly suggests she's a moon rabbit.

The most convincing theory abt the "eagle shooting" spell card so far is that it's a reference to Eagle, Apollo 11's lunar module.
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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #238 on: May 01, 2015, 03:13:02 PM »
I see now... The American Flag on the moon became a Youkai and lead a rabbit revolution on the moon, which caused (Who received a message from them) Reisen to seek allies within Gensokyo. There we go, that's the plot >..>

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Re: 東方Project 15 東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom.
« Reply #239 on: May 01, 2015, 04:01:28 PM »
And Reimu found this out and promptly says "Do not want" and that is the cause of the whole incident.  :3