Where do you believe any non-Japanese Touhou characters are from?

[aListers]

I was thinking about the accent thread we have here and how apparently people disagree on where certain Touhou characters are from. I'm just wondering what everybody's opinions on them are - and also why because I like analysing lore and figuring things out.

The majority of characters are Japanese so trying to list them all would be a pain but I there are certain characters which appear to not be Japanese so listing them should be easier.

I personally think that Alice is British - probably English but I can only narrow her down to Britain with the knowledge I have. I believe this mainly due to the tea that she drinks being the same tea that we actually drink in Britain. I read that she served them our kind of tea in one of the 3 fairies mangas. I actually read the original to make sure and I'm fairly sure it was the Japanese word for our kind of tea rather than green tea or any fancy kind of tea. It also clearly says "Grimiore of Alice" on her grimiore in MS so I'm fairly sure that she's from an English speaking country. I can't find the quote that says Shinki  says that everything in Makai was created by her but I don't think it's to be taken literally. Although it did extend to many (probably most) residents, Byakuren was an exception and so I think Alice would be too. I also don't think that the song title of one of her themes is an implication that she's Romanian either. Considering the many types of dolls she has, I think she's done some travelling if that's to be any implication - plus the book being in English also makes it unlikely.

I also Think that Remilia and Flandre are French. Unfortunately I can't remember why. I remember reading arguments on Danbooru back in 2010 or 2011 which convinced me of this but this is one of the things I forgot when I moved to this new city.

I have no idea where Yukari is from but I don't believe that she was born in Japan. I believe that Yukari is Mirabel Hearn but I have no idea where Mirabel is from either. I mean, She could have been born in Japan but with foreign parents or she could've moved there at a young age.  Either way, I'm not sure as all I get from her is that she loves Japanese culture - and loves Gensokyo. She carries a parasol which could suggest that she's white (keeps her from getting sun burn possibly) but it may just be fashion.

Seiga Kaku is Chinese - I'm sure somebody says it in one of the games or in one of the manuals at some point. Hong Meiling probably is too - as much as I'd like Setz's 4komas to be canon.

I also have no idea where the Prismriver sisters are from. It's probably English speaking seeing as their names have roots that I understand but even that's iffy.

Sakuya is Lunarian I'm sure. I'm not sure where but I'm sure that it was proved at some point.  Other than that, we generally know when a character is Lunarian or not. That being said, Eirin was probably originally from Japan as she was there for the founding of the Lunar capital.

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

I also like to think the Scarlet sisters are French, mainly because of their name roots. Here's the meaning and name origin of "Scarlet": http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/0/Scarlet

Scarlet \s-car-let, sc(a)-rlet\ as a girl's name is of Old French origin, and the meaning of Scarlet is "red". Scarlet is a variant of Scarlett (Old French): brought into use as a given name due to Margaret Mitchell's heroine Scarlett O'Hara in the novel "Gone With the Wind".

As you can see, it comes from French origins. Besides, the full name "Flandre Scarlet" feels even more French than Remilia's. Touhou Wiki itself can explain why: http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Flandre_Scarlet#Name

Her full name is Flandre Scarlet (フランドール・スカーレット). The name Flandre (best pronounced as 'Flan-drah') is a modern French term for Flanders, a region which makes out the northern part of Belgium.

Judging from this information, it's even more likely that the two are in fact French.

[CyberAngel]

I have no idea where Yukari is from but I don't believe that she was born in Japan. I believe that Yukari is Mirabel Hearn but I have no idea where Mirabel is from either. I mean, She could have been born in Japan but with foreign parents or she could've moved there at a young age.  Either way, I'm not sure as all I get from her is that she loves Japanese culture - and loves Gensokyo. She carries a parasol which could suggest that she's white (keeps her from getting sun burn possibly) but it may just be fashion.

If we take into account the Lafcadio Hearn analogy, his father was Irish. So that would make Yukari/Maribel one too, at least partially.

Even though Letty is an explicitly Japanese youkai (yuki-onna), her full name would suggest she's English. By the same logic, Wriggle and Medicine would be English too, while Mystia would be German.

[Mikuru]

In another thread, there was speculation about Cirno being Italian, because soft "c" is pronounced "ch" in Italian. I don't know much about the Italian language myself, but I feel the name, and in particular ir before a consonant, doesn't sound Italian. She could also be Romanian, which uses "c" similarly, but I know even less about Romanian so I don't know whether that's plausible. Also, there are several languages that write the "ch" sound as č, and we know the games usually drop diacritics (as with "București").

The Scarlet sisters, I'm sure, have done a lot of travelling, considering they are surrounded with references to a number of different countries. As already mentioned, "Flandre" is the French name of Flanders, a region of Belgium. "Scarlet" is an English name with French origins. "Remilia" sounds Italian. "U. N. Owen" is a reference to the English writer Agatha Christie. Vlad Țepeș lived in what is modern-day Romania.

I rather like the theory that the Scarlets, Cirno and Alice are all originally from Romania, and knew each other -- and maybe travelled together -- long before any of them came to Gensokyo. If so, then it would make sense to include Sakuya with this group. (I really don't like the theory that she is a Lunarian, and I'd love to know what evidence there is for it, other than that one line about Eirin being surprised to see her, which could be taken numerous ways.)

Right now I don't have any theories to add about other characters

[Tsuken Yasashi]

Prismweaver sisters (or however u spell thems) must be Muricans.  Considering the instruments they play, they must have once been Americans from one time.

[Marron]

I think Elly is french, because imo she totally fit Ankou. The fact that she have a scythe and that she wear a long dress make me think that. I also have read that her themes may have a dark connotation(well it's obvious for bad apple, but I didn't knew it for Spirit Battle - Perdition Crisis)

As for Hong Meiling....I think it's obvious, isn't it ? 

[Tribow]

I can't explain why, but for some reason I believe Murasa is Australian

I honestly don't know why.

_{Of course Chine is China}

[Marron]

I can't explain why, but for some reason I believe Murasa is Australian

Hey, I know what you mean. There are these characters that we automatically assimilate to a country. Sometime, it can be for simple reasons. For some reasons, I think Yuuka is a western youkai, for exemple. Because she's dressed like a western person(most of pc -98 are like that, in fact), she live in a mansion with red squares patern. I always thought of Yuuka as a countrywoman. I don't really know from which land, but I would see her in Europe.

Or for Kagerou. The first time I saw her, I thought she was fighting with her voice, that she was an opera singer, so for me, she had italian origins. Hahaha.

Ah, btw ! As for me, Cirno is english because she's a fairy that can freeze things(and like to do so). She's not a bad one, but is just easy to provoke. So, she remind me of Jack Frost from UK. By the way, we found his  female equivalent: http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q440/Tachibana_Chikoku/21055e5c4f9167c842373dbe6d55b053.png

[Tengukami]

I'm going to be boring and say I think all the characters are Japanese unless expressly stated otherwise. Just seems weird to me to project European-ness onto characters created by a Japanese guy, who live in a magical land inside Japan, who speak Japanese and share traits, qualities or references to Japanese mythology. Occam's Razor and all that.

[CyberAngel]

After staring at PMiSS art for too long, I've noticed that some character art has names written in English, even though all characters have official Japanese names. Now, why would that be? Well, wouldn't it make sense for them to be foreigners? So, I went further, and even in Japanese some names look like foreigner ones. Based on these things, the characters that might actually be of Western origin are: Rumia, Cirno, Patchouli, Scarlets, Letty, Alice, Lily, Prismrivers, Wriggle, Mystia, Medicine, Nazrin, the Three Fairies (!) and Maribel.

[Ragathol]

I see the Scarlets as French as well, but in my "Patchouli" comic, I have them living in Britain since many years. I thought Patchouli fit as a British high-class young lady, so I set her as the daughter of a wealthy trader, who would have a proper upbringing and a good supply of books in the late 19th century. Her mother was a magician as well, but succumbed because she was repressing her magical energies. Patchouli is drawn to the Scarlet mansion because of the magical energies it radiates.
Also, I wasn't able to fit this into the comic, but Sakuya was supposed to be a Russian monster hunter. "Sakuya Izayoi" is a name given to her by Remilia, after all. They all learn to speak Japanese after coming to Gensokyo.



Alice is Romanian in my mind. She's the "Dollmaker of Bucharest" after all. "Murgatroid" is from an Agatha Christie novel, but it hardly sounds very British either. Might just be a taken name. I have a sort of a back story for her too, might make a comic out of it one day.

Yukari, in my opinion, is not of any nationality. She's an entity born from humanity's obsession with borders of all kinds, and the conflicts it causes. She has been in many places during her existence, taking many shapes and spurring on wars and inequality to make herself stronger. She probably settled in Japan during the shogunate wars, and has remained there since, making occasional forages into the "real world" during her long sleep sessions.

As for Cirno, she's a pure magical being, so she has no heritage or nationality. She just happens to exist in a Japanese context. The name might be a play on "chill".

[aListers]

"Murgatroid" is from an Agatha Christie novel, but it hardly sounds very British either. Might just be a taken name.

I've actually looked it up and found that it is in fact a british surname. Originating in yorkshire according to wikipedia.

I personally think names are an unreliable source for guessing where a character is from though - simply due to the Letty Whiterock problem.

[CyberAngel]

simply due to the Letty Whiterock problem.

For all we know, she was an English woman who married a Japanese man and came to Japan, then became a yuki-onna as described in stories about them.

[Mikuru]

Letty Whitelock's name is yet another reference to Agatha Christie    Both her surname and Alice's are probably assumed names; otherwise that's a bizarre coincidence

[Aya Reiko]

My Epileptic Trees:

Meiling, Seiga, & Yoshika - Chinese
Alice - Romania or Wallachia
The Scarlets - Dane father, Dutch mother
Sakuya - North German or Time Lady
Patchy - North Italian

[Clarste]

Most of these characters have blatantly English names. Whiterock? Prismriver? Patchouli Knowledge? Alice Murgatroyd? Remilia also writes Kosuzu a letter in English so she might be English.

Given that, everyone else is probably English too, if only because ZUN perceives English as the default foreignness.

[Suspicious person]

As far as names goes, nothing forbid anyone to get a name that's inspired from foreign places. A chinese man may very well name his kid Shirley, Michael or Leonardus Bombastus Fancynamestein if he wanted to ; not to mention the possibility for the characters to chose a name for themselves, like in Yukari's case. It would be very suspicious too if the fairies with english names were nation exclusive, as they are the manifestation of nature (It'd be very weird too if there was a family called "Milk", "Child" or "Sapphire" somewhere out there...)

On my side, I'll be lazy and say that the non-japanese Touhou characters are European or Asian lore inspired (until ZUN do otherwise)

[Tengukami]

As far as names goes, nothing forbid anyone to get a name that's inspired from foreign places.

This is my feeling, too. Kinda weird to microscope in on the names and ignore pretty much everything else connected to Japan, its language and mythology. I mean so long as we're talking about the burden of evidence and all.

That said, it is fun to speculate in lieu of solid proof, though there are clear indications at least. The SDM cast comes immediately to mind. In fact, I'd be surprised if they were Japanese. They just seem vaguely Euro to me.

[Tiamat]

ZUN explicitly stated he wanted a foreign feel for EoSD, so you can pretty much expect the SDM crew to not be native. Meiling explicitly refers to her homeland in her fighting game win quote, so it's a given that she's from another country (well, that and her title is "Chinese Girl"....)

It's notable that Remilia has stated in one story (the BAiJR interview, maybe?) "This is Japan. Speak Japanese" and also can't seem to tell Japanese dialects from each other (from that same incident). Thus she's probably not native. Pretty sure it's explicitly stated the mansion itself isn't from Japan.

Evidence for Sakuya being a lunarian (Note: Evidence does NOT equal proof. Especially in this case):  Eirin being surprised to see her, and the fact that she has a spell card called Lunar Dial.  ...that's about it.  Her alleged old age is actually probably/possibly NOT evidence per say (mainly cause Akyuu explicitly speculates she's possibly that way due to her time abilities slowing down her age. It's shown in her PCB ending that she does have the ability to speed up the aging of things, so she likely can slow down aging too)

Maribel (and thus, potentially Yukari, depending on how you view their "relationship") is likely the same nationality as Lafcadio Hearn.  (which IIRC is Italian father and English mother?). She has no relatives living in Japan and a name that's hard for Japanese to pronounce (explicitly. Of course, arguably her name could be hard for anyone to pronounce since even ZUN isn't sure what it is, but the story narrative explicitly only mentions Japanese having the trouble)

Alice's spell cards involve lots of foreign countries.  Not much of evidence of anything but does show she has a decent likelihood of not being Japanese.

Cirno in Greater Fairy Wars mentions freezing something like "English Beef" or so or... whatever. Maybe french beef?

I like CyberAngel's anlaysis of looking at how the names were written (which IMHO is a bit stronger evidence than "What the names actually are.").

[Clarste]

Alice's spell cards involve lots of foreign countries.  Not much of evidence of anything but does show she has a decent likelihood of not being Japanese.

Alice has a "dolls of the world" collection. Russian dolls, French dolls, etc. They all look the same because of the limitations of the sprites, but I assume they're supposed to be different styles too. Anyway, I don't think that indicates her birthplace at all, since anyone can collect foreign dolls, so if it weren't for her name I'd call her obviously Japanese.

While circumstantial evidence is sort of interesting, I think ignoring the names entirely is just nonsensical. If having a foreign name doesn't indicate where they're from, then doesn't having a Japanese name not indicate anything either? Is Yuyuko from South Africa?

[aListers]

While circumstantial evidence is sort of interesting, I think ignoring the names entirely is just nonsensical. If having a foreign name doesn't indicate where they're from, then doesn't having a Japanese name not indicate anything either? Is Yuyuko from South Africa?

Well, we can kind of tell she isn't due to her back story and the way she dresses but nonetheless, I did say unreliable not irrelevant. If anything, now knowing that Alice's 2nd name is at least based off a british surname basically makes me 100% sure rather than 90% sure that she's British. Nonetheless, I think that name alone has no direction without at least a little hint from somthing else.

The scenario for Letty that cyberangel came up with may be true - however I think that it's more likley that youkai give themselves names (or are given them) and therefor got a western name because it's cool or it hides the meaning behind somthing that sounds cool.

[Sagus]

I assume everyone is Japanese except for the following:

Meiling and Seiga are Chinese. Meiling because it's pretty much canon, and Seiga is explicitly stated as not havig been born in Japan in her profile, and since her name and a bunch of other things refer to chinese myths and Taoism was born in China...

The Scarlets are, canonically, not originally from Gensokyo, and they are western-style vampires, so it's not too farfetched to assume they're westerners. Like many here, I assume they're French.

I place the Prismrivers and Kana Anaberal as German, 'cause poltergeist is a german word and they both inhabit western-style mansions. Also, the real Prismriver's father was a Count (it's stated in their profile); since that's a western title, they kind of have to be westerns.

I think Patchoulli is British because have you seen her attitude

Maribel is canonically not Japanese. Since Lafcadio Hearn was of Irish and Greek nationality, I assume she's the same. As a consequence, Yukari is, too.

I imagine that Alice is Romanian, because one of her themes is "The Doll-Maker of Bucuresti". Her name is a pseudonym (thought up by someone that reads too much english literature).

I like to think Kagerou has at least some French blood because "Loup-garou" is the French term for werewolf.

Reisen, Reisen 2, the Watatsukis, Eirin and Kaguya are canonically Moon aliens from the Moon.

Iku is from the Pacific Ocean because she's an oarfish.

YuugenMagan, Elis, everyone from MS (except for Alice) and Koakuma are Makaian, because all except the last one are explicitly so, and Koakuma because she's a devil and Makai is a devil world.

Yuuka is older than the concept of countries and therefore has no nationailty.

[the old guy]

Everyone who i was going to say has already been said before i could, but i am going to say i think Alice isn't from anywhere because she was (probably) born in Makai, but Shinki designed her after a European girl. Also i assume The Scarlets are Romanian, because that's what Vlad the Impaler was, even if they aren't actually related to him, i still like to think this because its a cool allusion to Dracula.

[Tengukami]

While circumstantial evidence is sort of interesting, I think ignoring the names entirely is just nonsensical.

Fortunately, there's a whole lot of room between "using names as the sole indicator" and "ignoring the names entirely". SDM is a great example of this. There's a lot Euro about them. Letty? Not so much, apart from the name, her being a creature from Japanese mythology and all.

[Clarste]

Fortunately, there's a whole lot of room between "using names as the sole indicator" and "ignoring the names entirely". SDM is a great example of this. There's a lot Euro about them. Letty? Not so much, apart from the name, her being a creature from Japanese mythology and all.

I think Wakasagihime being described as both a ningyo and a mermaid (by her theme) implies that the line between Japanese and foreign youkai species  could be blurred. Vampires are a kind of foreign oni, etc. Wouldn't surprise me too much if Letty was a yuki-onna from England.

[Tengukami]

And that raises an excellent point, mentioning the line-blurring: this is pretty much ZUN's whole MO. He enjoys ambiguous east-west mixing, case in point being the motivation behind the "Team Shanghai Alice" brand. So I guess things aren't so cut and dry, or at least, maybe some or even many 2hus are in fact both east /and/ west.

Wow, changing one's mind on the internet. Who knew it was possible?

[Suspicious person]

Still in stubborn mode Personally, I think that it'd make sense if characters based on japanese folklore have japanese names and those that might be foreigners have foreign ones. The settings should be more reliable than the names if it's about finding their origins, so, for example, Yuyuko cannot be an African as there are neither sakura trees nor any poet named Saigiyou there : Question ! where can you find those ? Well ?! Correct ! in Japan ! (if you thought otherwise, you done goofed) ... anyway, chara settings > chara name. This does NOT mean names are irrelevant, just that names are not indicative of their origins (not in a general sense)

In the case of characters with suspicious names and origins like Letty for example... Since Letty lacks proper backstory, settings or whatever, she can be pretty much anything. English name ? ---> Maybe she got married to some english guy before ? Or was Jack Frost a cross dresser and was in fact "Jackie" Frost (wild speculations on color scheme begins !) ? Or did she stumble upon some english book, thought english was cool and named herself Letty Whiterock ? Or just be boring, blunt and say she is a yuki onna so she is japanese ? Anything goes, but just pointing out that Touhou is first and foremost Japanese, not some all-nation folklore showcase, hey.

You can associate the name with a country, not the named. Otherwise, we'll have a German bird girl who grills lamprey eel... in a goddamn Japanese stall, which is not "quite" the most German-like thing ever... getting a foreign country inspired named does not mean you have such foreign country's nationality.

Anyway, touhou 6's theme is the one that matches "West X East" the most compared to the rest (and somehow, 6, 7 and 8 have a lot of foreign names, hmm). As far as blur between species and species go, dunno, maybe some race's name like "Kyuketsuki" (vampire if I'm not wrong) are translation convenience or gets compared to similar things ? Things'll be easier if ZUN choose to settle for one way of calling them. Maybe Ningyo and mermaid were both used deliberately because people confuse them  ?

[Sagus]

And that raises an excellent point, mentioning the line-blurring: this is pretty much ZUN's whole MO. He enjoys ambiguous east-west mixing, case in point being the motivation behind the "Team Shanghai Alice" brand. So I guess things aren't so cut and dry, or at least, maybe some or even many 2hus are in fact both east /and/ west.

Indeed; consider how Remilia and Flandre, who are very western-looking vampires, have a weakness against fried beans, which's an oni weakness.

Considering that youkai in this setting are affected a lot by local beliefs and things like that, it makes sense that monsters from one place that move to other lands would eventually acquire traits associated with similar monsters there.

[Clarste]

Indeed; consider how Remilia and Flandre, who are very western-looking vampires, have a weakness against fried beans, which's an oni weakness.

Considering that youkai in this setting are affected a lot by local beliefs and things like that, it makes sense that monsters from one place that move to other lands would eventually acquire traits associated with similar monsters there.

So... are there any kind of snow fairies ("fairy" being the local equivalent of the word "youkai") from British mythology?

[Hideki]

So... are there any kind of snow fairies ("fairy" being the local equivalent of the word "youkai") from British mythology?

Well, there's a Snow Queen from Danish mythology.  I think Disney's Frozen was supposed to originally be a version of that story.  Also hags are considered the personification of winter in Britian, becoming uglier in the winter and beautiful in the spring.  Lastly, the Unseelie court in Celtic myth is associated with the winter months and the cold cruelty that they generally represent.