Topic: *SPOILER ALERT!* Theory on how all Touhou endings happened  (Read 3667 times)

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CyberAngel

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*SPOILER ALERT!* Theory on how all Touhou endings happened
« on: March 11, 2015, 03:17:56 pm »
WARNING!
UNMARKED GAMES ENDINGS SPOILERS AHEAD!
If you haven't played the games and/or seen all the endings, DO NOT PROCEED!
(partly because you won't understand a thing)

Talked to a staff member, and outright giving a warning beforehand is better than trying to cover everything in spoiler tags.

Now, the reason why I want to talk about endings is because I'm highly amused whenever anyone tries to claim that one route or ending is canon over any other. Why? Because if you actually look at endings themselves, there are barely any conflicts between them, and many don't actually need their respective routes to be the one and only canon route. Actually, I've been thinking about it, and in many games all good endings fit together quite well. So, what follows is my take on how all endings could have happened. It's just one way to look at them, some parts may be obvious, some parts might be just my speculation. But it shows that there's no need to choose any single route as the one and only way the stories could have happened.

One thing than needs to be reiterated before starting is that endings could have happened without their respective routes happening 100% as they're shown in-game. As far as routes go, I do agree it's safe to assume that Reimu had a major role in solving all incidents, but it's also possible that other playable heroines had a hand in it, from just going along for the ride to lending a hand on occasion to solving the incident side-by-side with her. How routes actually happened is another topic, though, and it's irrelevant to current one. Here, I'll just look at how all endings could've happened regardless of who actually solved the incident.

I'll do more standard games first, and then will look into versus games, since for those it also makes sense to show that all their routes happened as well.

Embodiment of Scarlet Devil

No conflicts here. The endings can be seen as independent, but they also fit into events of a single day nicely. The order would be MarisaB (Sakuya discovers her, Remilia leaves for the shrine), ReimuA (Remilia comes to the shrine), ReimuB (Remilia's already at the shrine), MarisaA (Sakuya serves her a meal, Remilia comes in). Supporting this being the same day is the fact that Remilia goes alone, which seems unusual.

Perfect Cherry Blossom

The endings can be seen as independent here as well, but some connections can be made. Both ReimuA and SakuyaB have Youmu being forced with cleaning duty, and she ponders it in MarisaB. ReimuB has Yuyuko and Youmu come to the shrine, with Reimu asking why. This could easily lead to a flower-viewing party in SakuyaB (not ReimuA because Marisa isn't present). In SakuyaA, Remilia isn't aware about Netherworld, so it's probably before she meets Yuyuko and Youmu. Lastly, MarisaA has her staying too long in Netherworld, so it's probably right after the incident. So the order of endings is probably MarisaA - SakuyaA - ReimuB - SakuyaB - ReimuA - MarisaB.

Imperishable Night

First off, "Normal" endings. All of them result in heroines trying again after the fake full moon hanging in the sky for days. Even humans would notice that, but there's no mention of it anywhere. Plus there'd need to be another "Eternal Night Incident", or encounter with Kaguya would be much more different. And since restoring the true moon was kinda the whole point, it makes no sense for the heroines to ignore it for so long before trying again. No matter how I look at it, they're just glorified bad endings, and didn't happen as far as I'm concerned. Except one event - Yuyuko pestering Youmu to make pickles. It's alluded to in SWR, in a random Youmu vs Yuyuko quote, so such event probably happened after all at some other point in time.

Now, the good endings are completely independent. Only one of them requires for the respective team to reach FinalB - Netherworld Team's, since that's how Youmu got a case of red eyes (and insanity). Others only need the girls to know about Eientei crew. As I said, it's not necessary that only one route is canon, a few teams might've actually operated together. Also, I can definitely say that Scarlet Team's good ending happened because this is the direct result of it. As for Reimu and Marisa, they probably know about Eientei because they also reach it when stage 4 ends even if they're bosses.

Why is everything involving Lunarians so complicated?

Mountain of Faith

With some assumptions, all endings nicely fit into a linear sequence: MarisaC (introduces Kanako to Reimu; only makes sense if Marisa went alone, so possibly not canon, not that it makes a difference), ReimuA (introduces mountain youkai to Kanako), MarisaA (mountain youkai already have a deal with Kanako), ReimuB (Sanae offers advice), ReimuC (makes a small shrine), MarisaB (makes her own small shrine).

Subterranean Animism

The endings are completely independent, but if we assume that all partners somehow had a hand in the adventure, all endings could've happened independently.

Undefined Fantastic Object

Another one where endings can actually fit together. Byakuren decides to build a temple in ReimuB, and Kanako helps her in SanaeA. Since ReimuA and MarisaA have the ship flying around, they'd take place before that. In ReimuA, Byakuren is just happy to fly around freely so it's probably the first. Suwako visits them sometime while they're still flying in SanaeB. MarisaB doesn't depend on the ship itself and ties to the Extra stage, so it's probably the last. So the order would be ReimuA - MarisaA - SanaeB - ReimuB - SanaeA - MarisaB.

Great Fairy Wars

All endings fit into a single sequence: B-2 (Cirno introduces herself to Three Fairies before their flower viewing), C-2 (they throw a party for her), A-2 (Cirno tries leading them), B-1 (they prank Reimu together), A-1 (Cirno tries to show off during a flower viewing), C-1 (Cirno tries to pick a fight, leads into Extra stage).

Ten Desires

All endings are independent and could've happened if all girls took part in solving it. There's a bit of a conflict in Reimu's ending in her conversation with Marisa, but the whole conversation can be ignored. Marisa also needs to be there at the end.

Double Dealing Character

If we assume that Marisa and Sakuya did use their weapons, they were still a bit crazy right after the final battle, so MarisaA and SakuyaA happened first. Eventually, the weapons would be back to normal anyway, and their "B" endings could still happen. SakuyaB would be first (since Shinmyoumaru wasn't present yet), then MarisaB (she brings Reimu Shinmyoumaru and the Mallet). Then it would be ReimuB (she tries using the Mallet) and in the end ReimuA (she decided to give shelter to Shinmyoumaru, probably after seeing she's no threat). Some endind details might need tweaking, but otherwise they may still fit together.

Fun fact for those who'd still insist on having just one route/ending, WaHH chapter 19 quite heavily implies Reimu did use her rod, so it's ReimuA if anything. Also fits with Shinmyoumaru living in a box in FS chapter 12.

Now, for the versus games.

Immaterial and Missing Power

The only big indication about the order of routes that we have is the order of Suika's battles. If we assume her battles happened at the end of each characters' storylines, the order would be Sakuya, Alice, Youmu, Patchouli, Marisa, Remilia and Reimu. Their endings could happen anytime after Suika is exposed. Since Suika defeats everyone, and since Yukari's story straight up depends on exposing Suika, she's probably the last one to fight her and wins. Yuyuko remains a wildcard with her story possibly taking place anytime, but since it's Yuyuko, hers is probably before everyone else's (and she also wins).

Phantasmagoria of Flower View

Almost all routes and endings could've happened at the same time. The only exceptions are Komachi's and Eiki's, that are explicitly after everyone else's, and Yuuka's, which is before Reimu's. Also, Tewi's, Reisen's and Medicine's probably took place in that order. Reisen tells Eirin about Medicine's field in her own ending, and they come there in Medicine's. Tewi is affected by Medicine's poison, but it seems neither Reisen nor Eirin recognize that.

Scarlet Weather Rhapsody

This thing describes everything and I have nothing to add. Huge props to whoever worked on it.

Hisoutensoku

The three stories are largely independent and have only a few common points. Cirno vs Sanae happened first, Cirno goes to Utsuho right away while Sanae goes to SDM and visits Utsuho later. Meiling's story happens after her fight with Sanae.

Hopeless Masquerade

I haven't played this one, so I'm going by summaries on the wiki. It's known that Mamizou's and then Kokoro's stories happened last. Kokoro gets a permanent new mask in Koishi's ending, so it's probably right before them. Only Ichirin and Futo can't help Kokoro with her mask, so their stories are probably before everyone else's. All other stories take place either simultaneously or close to each other.

Well, that should be it. If anyone has anything to add or point out (or wants to share a different theory that isn't baseless nonsense), feel free to post it.

cuc

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Re: *SPOILER ALERT!* Theory on how all Touhou endings happened
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2015, 02:11:51 am »
Cool post, thank you :)

A lot of your points are plainly true, like that nothing says they can't have a Palanquin Ship tour for a while before settling down, or there being few contradictions between the TD normal and parallel endings.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2015, 02:21:04 am by cuc »
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Starxsword

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Re: *SPOILER ALERT!* Theory on how all Touhou endings happened
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2015, 09:46:47 am »
@Imperishable Night:
Imperishable Night is kinda strange in that, Scarlet team's good ending most likely happened, because Silent Sinner in Blue was pretty much the result of that.
Then, there is Barrier Team's ending, which doesn't happen or retconned (whichever way you want to interpret it). At least the part where they talk about the barrier stopping travel between the Moon and Gensokyo.
All the teams who were in the incident also lost and never directly solved the false moon. While the incident that everyone knows about, Eternal Night Incident, was solved by the antagonists, Kaguya and Erin. Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red pretty much tells us that the Eternal Night incident was immediately ended and dawn appeared right away. Afterwards, Eirin just put the real moon back after Eientei was victorious.

@Immaterial and Missing Power:
I am pretty sure they all lost, except Reimu, in which Suika let her win. Suika's route is most likely the canon route. Of course, it is unknown whether Yukari or Yuyuko fought Suika, since they aren't in Suika's route.

@Hopeless Masquerade:
I feel like some character endings didn't happen.

Quote
Supporting this being the same day is the fact that Remilia goes alone, which seems unusual.

Remilia doesn't go with Sakuya all the time. You see her with Patchouli more often than not. Sakuya would at times come and serve them when food is ready and stuff.


One thing to note is that is Imperishable Night happens After Immaterial and Missing Power, as far as time line is concerned.

Helepolis

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Re: *SPOILER ALERT!* Theory on how all Touhou endings happened
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2015, 10:49:50 am »
@Imperishable Night:
Imperishable Night is kinda strange in that, Scarlet team's good ending most likely happened, because Silent Sinner in Blue was pretty much the result of that.
Then, there is Barrier Team's ending, which doesn't happen or retconned (whichever way you want to interpret it). At least the part where they talk about the barrier stopping travel between the Moon and Gensokyo.
All the teams who were in the incident also lost and never directly solved the false moon. While the incident that everyone knows about, Eternal Night Incident, was solved by the antagonists, Kaguya and Erin. Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red pretty much tells us that the Eternal Night incident was immediately ended and dawn appeared right away. Afterwards, Eirin just put the real moon back after Eientei was victorious.
Winning and losing for IN is indeed bit strange. Though don't forget the teams didn't lost. The fact remained that the true full moon had been replaced and wouldn't be up at this rate for the Moon Viewing Festival. This is why the Youkai were troubled and the humans didn't care. The little bit of the moon "replaced" out is also displayed in IN's loading logo and everywhere.

"All the teams who were in the incident also lost and never directly solved the false moon. "
This is not true. The incident is caused on two fronts: by the antagonists and protagonists. The moon is replaced which will 'endanger' the Youkai festival. The night is "eternal" which is troublesome only noted by Marisa or Reimu in 4a/b and later on troublesome noted by Kaguya in Final B. The protagonists also don't freeze the night, they extend it as the timeflow still occurs. In their dialogues they also note that the moon is sinking as they are "wasting time".

In terms of endings, how I see it is:  It is true that Eirin had been succesful with her plan (as you play Final A first) but that doesn't mean you lost as you need to find the full moon and the person playing hide and seek. Also the Eternal Night is never broken in Final A. Therefore you can note in the Normal Ending voor Scarlet Team that Remilia is extremely annoyed.

So Final A and B actually take place in the same incident, extended night (Imperishable). When you replay the game, you obviously go through all stages again but the real story part begins when you select Final B to find the true moon.

So TL DR: You don't lose in IN by beating Final A. Final B is the true ending as the full moon is really restored. The Festival is saved regardless of this.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 10:53:18 am by Helepolis »

CyberAngel

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Re: *SPOILER ALERT!* Theory on how all Touhou endings happened
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2015, 11:20:31 am »
All the teams who were in the incident also lost and never directly solved the false moon. While the incident that everyone knows about, Eternal Night Incident, was solved by the antagonists, Kaguya and Erin. Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red pretty much tells us that the Eternal Night incident was immediately ended and dawn appeared right away. Afterwards, Eirin just put the real moon back after Eientei was victorious.

The goal that heroines pursued wasn't to keep the Eternal Night for as long as possible, so breaking it didn't mean they lost. Their goal was to have the true moon back, and after winning against Kaguya they probably convinced Eirin to take down the fake one and never put it up again. It's the same logic like when heroines won during Spring Snow Incident, but Yuyuko was the one returning spring, by her own hands. In short, everyone - both Eientei crew and heroines - won in Imperishable Night, since they reached their objectives - stopping the incidents that bothered them.

Remilia doesn't go with Sakuya all the time. You see her with Patchouli more often than not. Sakuya would at times come and serve them when food is ready and stuff.

I meant going outside the mansion, and to the Hakurei Shrine specifically. It's possible that "Sakuya following Remilia everywhere outside" just wasn't a thing at the time of EoSD yet, but Sakuya does remind Remi to take a parasol as if she never went outside in daylight alone. Well, that's my way to interpret it, anyway.

Starxsword

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Re: *SPOILER ALERT!* Theory on how all Touhou endings happened
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2015, 05:42:29 am »
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The fact remained that the true full moon had been replaced and wouldn't be up at this rate for the Moon Viewing Festival.

What Moon Viewing Festival? Am I missing something? There is only 1 night that Eirin needs to replace the real moon with the fake one. If that night is over, Eirin will just put it back to normal.

Quote
The protagonists also don't freeze the night, they extend it as the timeflow still occurs. In their dialogues they also note that the moon is sinking as they are "wasting time".

Yes, but time flow was accelerated to dawn. Doesn't that imply that Kaguya ended the Eternal Night incident? Once Kaguya ends the incident, Eirin has no reason to keep the false moon in the sky.

Aya: In the end, after an indeterminate amount of time, the moon suddenly jerked forward with frightening speed and disappeared beyond the horizon. The sun has finally returned.

One of the major reasons why I think they lost is because Barrier Team, which is the default team that would have solved the incident, has their ending retconned. Their explanation to why Lunarians are not able to get to Gensokyo is wrong, as proven in Silent Sinner in Blue. This also retcons parts of Kaguya's profile.

Quote
Their goal was to have the true moon back, and after winning against Kaguya they probably convinced Eirin to take down the fake one and never put it up again.

But that can be contended. Eirin has no reason to put the fake moon in the sky except that one night. As long as it ends, Eirin will cancel her spell.

Quote
It's possible that "Sakuya following Remilia everywhere outside" just wasn't a thing at the time of EoSD yet, but Sakuya does remind Remi to take a parasol as if she never went outside in daylight alone. Well, that's my way to interpret it, anyway.

I am unsure if it is a thing after Embodiment of the Scarlet Devil. Sakuya accompanies Remilia, if Remilia has errands for Sakuya to run. For example, I am pretty sure Remilia wasn't with Sakuya when Remilia visits the Hakurei shrine in Curiosities of Lotus Asia. Sakuya went to Kourindou, while Remilia went to the shrine. They do meet up afterwards.
Remilia also goes solo on Immaterial and Missing Power, but that's a given, since characters don't accompany other characters in that game.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 05:44:52 am by Starxsword »

CyberAngel

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Re: *SPOILER ALERT!* Theory on how all Touhou endings happened
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2015, 10:50:28 am »
What Moon Viewing Festival? Am I missing something? There is only 1 night that Eirin needs to replace the real moon with the fake one. If that night is over, Eirin will just put it back to normal.

IN happens before the harvest moon.

Yes, but time flow was accelerated to dawn. Doesn't that imply that Kaguya ended the Eternal Night incident? Once Kaguya ends the incident, Eirin has no reason to keep the false moon in the sky.

*sigh* Kaguya breaks the Eternal Night if players fail her Last Spell rush. But even if they do, they still win and get the good ending. So again, heroines win, but Eientei achieves their objective as well.

But that can be contended. Eirin has no reason to put the fake moon in the sky except that one night. As long as it ends, Eirin will cancel her spell.

She contemplated doing that again during SSiB, but decided against it since that would cause an unrest again.

For example, I am pretty sure Remilia wasn't with Sakuya when Remilia visits the Hakurei shrine in Curiosities of Lotus Asia. Sakuya went to Kourindou, while Remilia went to the shrine. They do meet up afterwards.

Uh... no. They come to the shrine together, Reimu isn't there. They break her cups, so Remilia sends Sakuya to buy new ones, then comes after her.

Seriously, it's been awhile since I've read all official materials, but I still remember such details no problem.

Helepolis

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Re: *SPOILER ALERT!* Theory on how all Touhou endings happened
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2015, 08:45:33 pm »
What Moon Viewing Festival? Am I missing something?
That is the whole reason Imperishable Night is about. There is a moon-viewing harvest/event the "next day". Youkai are troubled about that + the moon. It is basically like: "GIVE BACK OUR TRUE FULL MOON" > Head out. "Freeze" the night, kick Eirin/Kaguya ass.

Yes, but time flow was accelerated to dawn. Doesn't that imply that Kaguya ended the Eternal Night incident? Once Kaguya ends the incident, Eirin has no reason to keep the false moon in the sky.
Aya: In the end, after an indeterminate amount of time, the moon suddenly jerked forward with frightening speed and disappeared beyond the horizon. The sun has finally returned.
You're correct about this part. I forgot that also in beating Final A, dawn comes because Eirin indeed finished her plans.

 But there is a gameplay excuse here like Drake said on IRC when we discussed it, and that is the fact that Final B needs to be played. You can take it as the night not ending during Final A and the teams retrying for Final B, or the night ended but the teams reattempted by refreezing the night. Judging stage 4 dialogues, I think it is the former but this is again gameplay thing.

You could say the teams technically lost the first time because they were forced to revisit Eientei to get to Final B. The endings of IN are extremely odd and the Final A B method doesn't makes it easier. But the incident isn't solved either with Final A as the youkai's are bothered with the moon still being fake hence Final B attempt. So you could also imply that Eirin never finished her spell or she did, even if you beaten her because Kaguya is hidden because of her spell being completed.

I think you're hammering too much on the Final A endings and forgetting that they are nothing but a hint that the actual "culprit" is still to be ass-kicked.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 08:47:05 pm by Helepolis »

Starxsword

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Re: *SPOILER ALERT!* Theory on how all Touhou endings happened
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2015, 03:37:18 am »
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*sigh* Kaguya breaks the Eternal Night if players fail her Last Spell rush. But even if they do, they still win and get the good ending. So again, heroines win, but Eientei achieves their objective as well.

We know it was most likely broken by Kaguya. Aya's observation to this incident is pasted in italics.
We also know Barrier Team's ending is retcon. This ending may not have happen.
We know Scarlet Team's ending is the precusor to Silent Sinner in Blue. So, this ending should have happened.

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Reimu_Hakurei
Reimu's profile in Perfect Momento in Strict Sense mentions her solving Scarlet Mist and Spring Snow incident. They would be Embodiment of the Scarlet Devil and Perfect Cherry Blossom respectively.
Reimu's profile mentions she solved the Eternal Night incident. However, unlike the other 2 resolutions, this one has no details.

From Reimu's profile, Aya's observation, and Barrier team's ending being retconned, it seems like Barrier team did not solve the incident.

Quote
Uh... no. They come to the shrine together, Reimu isn't there. They break her cups, so Remilia sends Sakuya to buy new ones, then comes after her.

Seriously, it's been awhile since I've read all official materials, but I still remember such details no problem.

Then, I stand corrected. I thought they came separately. I remember the part where Sakuya was buying a cup in Kourindou. And Remilia was presumably at the Hakurei shrine.

Quote
But the incident isn't solved either with Final A as the youkai's are bothered with the moon still being fake hence Final B attempt.

That is correct. Final A doesn't solve the incident and the fake moon is still there. So, logically, Final B must happen. I have a response further up.

CyberAngel

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Re: *SPOILER ALERT!* Theory on how all Touhou endings happened
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2015, 10:17:50 am »
From Reimu's profile, Aya's observation, and Barrier team's ending being retconned, it seems like Barrier team did not solve the incident.

No objections, that's entirely possible. That said, this does bring up an interesting point. If canon route is the one where she is the stage 4 boss, then she still knows a lot about the incident. Plus I can't imagine Marisa or Remilia NOT bragging to her after solving the incident. If that's the case, then Reimu is intentionally holding back the details for their sake if asked.

Starxsword

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Re: *SPOILER ALERT!* Theory on how all Touhou endings happened
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2015, 08:50:58 am »
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Plus I can't imagine Marisa or Remilia NOT bragging to her after solving the incident. If that's the case, then Reimu is intentionally holding back the details for their sake if asked.

I can't imagine that either. Both Marisa and Remilia are looking to one up Reimu.

Outside of Barrier Team's ending, I'm guessing the other 2 teams may have happened.
Remilia's ending, I'm pretty sure happened, because Silent Sinner in Blue.
The other two endings, dunno, since I don't think there is anything that expands on it.
But there are several more pieces of evidence that Eientei didn't get their butts kicked during Imperishable Night. Instead, they got their butt kicking in Cage in Lunatic Runagate by Yukari/Yuyuko combination.

There is really no other game Touhou game to compare to, because this one has several unique features.

Helepolis

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Re: *SPOILER ALERT!* Theory on how all Touhou endings happened
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2015, 10:38:25 am »
That is why Cyber initially had written in the opening post that the Normal Endings are glorified Bad Endings. There is a lot of disconnect why the Heroines, story wise, are indeed messing around too much. But the disconnect is quickly put together if you read Scarlet Team's normal ending. Remilia herself is claiming it. A canon route in IN is impossible to point out because each team is the cause of the incident about the eternal night, but the fake moon is a shared incident among all teams.

It is even written in the prologue. All Youkai partners are annoyed that the " humans " didn't notice it. Remilia personally is quite annoyed (Taking in her personality). Yuyuko even makes a indirect hint at "that human was better" (speculative Reimu) who might be better to deal with the job but eventually heads out anyway.

Once you finish Final A, Remilia is still annoyed and they will revisit Eientei. Yuyuko also states a revisit is required. Even Magic Team has decided this. The only ambiguous hint given from Border Team is that things weren't settled yet. All four teams claim: "Something is still going on". Now in regardless of time-flow, we can't know. And we will never know.

If we were to project IN game play and stage progress, it would be as follow:
- Tomorrow is moon harvest/view festival
- Youkais are pissed off. Dumb humans etc.
- Prologue > head out to research because dumb humans.
- Stage 5 reached  > Reisen encounter  > Eirin > Keikaku doori.
- Normal ending > still pissed Youkais.
- Head out again as claimed in Normal Endings
- Stage 5 immediately > Reisen > Kaguya > Aya's report how dawn came.
- Good endings.

As said, Final A and B don't make it easy for us. Regarding Border Team's retcon, after some talk on IRC I guess you mean the Good endings and not Normal, because ' endings ' are confusing as general team.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 10:59:26 am by Helepolis »

CyberAngel

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Re: *SPOILER ALERT!* Theory on how all Touhou endings happened
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2015, 11:14:45 am »
But there are several more pieces of evidence that Eientei didn't get their butts kicked during Imperishable Night. Instead, they got their butt kicking in Cage in Lunatic Runagate by Yukari/Yuyuko combination.

I take it you're trying to say that Eientei crew didn't consider themselves defeated after IN? In which case, that's true. Even if players "win", both Eirin and Kaguya consider their battles nothing but a play. And it bothered Yukari enough for her to start the whole mess that is SSiB.

If we were to project IN game play and stage progress, it would be as follow:
- Tomorrow is moon harvest/view festival
- Youkais are pissed off. Dumb humans etc.
- Prologue > head out to research because dumb humans.
- Stage 5 reached  > Reisen encounter  > Eirin > Keikaku doori.
- Normal ending > still pissed Youkais.
- Head out again as claimed in Normal Endings
- Stage 5 immediately > Reisen > Kaguya > Aya's report how dawn came.
- Good endings.

Yeah, this works, but it would mean that "night" lasted for a few days. Though it's quite possible, actually.

Helepolis

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Re: *SPOILER ALERT!* Theory on how all Touhou endings happened
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2015, 01:04:26 pm »
The night probably ends in Final A too, but for gameplay excuses it is very vague and not confirmed. Doesn't makes the ending any different though.

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Re: *SPOILER ALERT!* Theory on how all Touhou endings happened
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2015, 06:18:55 am »
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Regarding Border Team's retcon, after some talk on IRC I guess you mean the Good endings and not Normal, because ' endings ' are confusing as general team.

Yes, I do mean the good endings.

Quote
I take it you're trying to say that Eientei crew didn't consider themselves defeated after IN? In which case, that's true. Even if players "win", both Eirin and Kaguya consider their battles nothing but a play. And it bothered Yukari enough for her to start the whole mess that is SSiB.

Yes, their general attitude in SSiB and Cage in Lunatic Runagate.
You also mentioned something in your response earlier, which I didn't think about.
You mentioned how Eirin was considering replacing the moon again. If we were to assume Eirin failed then, why would she consider trying the same thing again?
Unless there was something else in the context that I was missing, since I don't know the full text of that statement.


So to summarize, we have a few situations in game play and story:
Final A must be played, leading to bad end.
Final A leads to Final B. Logically speaking Final B should be played, because of how the Final A ending happens.
Final B leads to good end.

I assume Final B ending means protagonist beat up Eientei. Then, there are things that question Final B ending:
In Silent Sinner in Blue, Lunarians can indeed travel to Gensokyo, as proven by Reisen II. Invalidating parts of the good ending for Barrier team.
Reimu's Perfect Momento in Strict Sense profile about Imperishable Night. Not exactly contradictory, but puts to question about it.
Aya's statement about how Imperishable Night ended. It seems like Kaguya ended the night according to Aya's observations. This does not invalidate getting the good ending.
*Eirin considered replacing the moon again. (what is the context of this?) This would imply the false moon created by Eirin was successful.
Eirin's general attitude in Silent Sinner in Blue / Cage in Lunatic Runagate. It implies they weren't beaten.

Silent Sinner in Blue follows Scarlet Team's ending, so this good ending must be valid.

CyberAngel

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Re: *SPOILER ALERT!* Theory on how all Touhou endings happened
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2015, 07:34:37 am »
You mentioned how Eirin was considering replacing the moon again. If we were to assume Eirin failed then, why would she consider trying the same thing again?
Unless there was something else in the context that I was missing, since I don't know the full text of that statement.

It did work during IN, it's just that it made everyone upset. There's nothing wrong with considering to use it again if situation calls for it (though it's mentioned to be a last resort).

The statement about it is in the last chapter of CiLR, near the end, when Eirin comes to the "pool party".

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Re: *SPOILER ALERT!* Theory on how all Touhou endings happened
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2015, 07:44:05 am »
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16752.msg1166372.html#msg1166372

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About Eirin talking about replacing the moon again in CiLR: Yes, her fake moon was successful. If there were indeed anyone trying to reach Gensokyo during the Eternal Night Incident, they would not have been able to. As you know, it never really mattered: in IN's canon, this is said to be because of the Hakurei Barrier, and in modern canon, it's simply because nobody was actually intending to come get them. But this doesn't mean her fake moon wouldn't have worked -- it surely would have. This is why in CiLR she keeps it as an option. It should also be mentioned that she would have used it specifically such that the vampire party could arrive at the moon (to clear up the rumors in the Lunar Capital, probably), but Yukari could not get there. One interesting thing about this is that if she had used her backup, Yukari's plan wouldn't have succeeded.

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Valar

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Re: *SPOILER ALERT!* Theory on how all Touhou endings happened
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2015, 05:15:53 am »
All endings in HM actually happened. Though it's unclear who won religious war and encountered Kokoro first, Hata tried to use all methods offered by heroines. Reimu kept her stable using gathered hope, Byakuren tried to teach her how to control her own emotions, Miko made her new mask (which Kokoro didn't use because it was too perfect and would rob her of her identity as a youkai) and Nitori sold her a few too. Mamizou taught her to how to become a full youkai tsukumogami and then Kokoro became one by learning true emotions and beating Reimu, Miko and Byakuren at once. Futo, Ichirin, Koisihi and Marisa's are just side stories complementing main plot.
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