Topic: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer  (Read 30031 times)

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Aya Reiko

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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #60 on: February 05, 2015, 11:38:00 am »
That would be an epically bad move considering how it can be interpret as us destroying evidences... and also considering how all the archive on here work against him... not for him
Getting rid of 30 pages of evidences would be a really really bad move
*also, chill*
gp, he really would be that shallow.  Better let it drift off the front pages and into irrelevance.

Leon゠Helsing

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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #61 on: February 05, 2015, 11:45:52 am »
I'm kinda afraid to ask, but how are we doing on damage control?

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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #62 on: February 05, 2015, 11:56:41 am »
I'm kinda afraid to ask, but how are we doing on damage control?
I've forwarded our opinion and video link to Ruw-san on Twitter. Monhan also supported my limited Japanese to state we do not approve the video.

Saijee's behaviour has impacted quite wide number of people and areas. Not just on MotK. I've scanned several locations on the internet and discomfort is expressed pretty much in similar or more expressive ways. I am also not going to start a silly mission to show his "fans" that they are blinded by lies and scheming and worst of all, Doxxing. Any sane person with common sense can read and see for himself instead of believing in the 1-sided story from Saijee.

I don't need to cleanse my own name on Youtube neither intend or need to. If he decided to disclose and alter my own PMs publicly on Youtube, than that is his immature behaviour and all I can do is laugh at it and provide the actual PMs here.

There isn't much damage control required because they didn't trash our forum. The damage they done to the involved members and their effort/time is something that we cannot repair unfortunately. We can only as MotK make a statement (which Helvetica did) that we disapprove.

Saijee's dev thread in RikaNitori has been also locked, but not removed. He is not welcome any more here.

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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #63 on: February 05, 2015, 12:01:42 pm »
We've never really had any damage besides disparaging comments from various blindly-supportive Youtube/FB followers that don't intend to read the actual thread, even though it's even posted in the video description. Go figure, right? Pretty much anyone else actually interested in this case at all that gets to MotK's involvement, even people from Japan that can't read english very well, know that our discussions have been mostly criticism.

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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #64 on: February 05, 2015, 12:06:42 pm »
I'm kinda afraid to ask, but how are we doing on damage control?

On the Japanese side, Yonjin and the others mostly know about the real story of this mess, but this is still mostly taken as an insult by them. Thankfully, they haven't payed too much attention to this for quite a while so not many have find out about this. Only a few who kept watching it, mostly friend of Ruw.
I'm still not sure how Ruw is taking this though.

On the non-Japan side,  there are people who blindly and some "converted" to support FSS, but at this point just consider them a lost cause.
For something we can do, Paz is preparing to make a post with the whole 2 sides of the story in the Touhou Facebook page. Hopefully that can help people who are too confused with this issue.

But like Drake said, at most it's just a disparity of opinions, albeit a terrible one

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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #65 on: February 05, 2015, 12:07:48 pm »
What's also pretty funny about this mess of a video is that in the Facebook post sharing it, they explicitely say "FSS will not respond to comments for this video or this FB post." It's like they know they'll be called out on the pure bullshit they're spewing in the video, so they wrote a disclaimer saying they won't deal with the backlash.
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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #66 on: February 05, 2015, 12:12:15 pm »
My regret was that I had not taken a hard look at their crowdfunding goals earlier - I was hospitalized when they first launched the Indiegogo campaign. The goals were so hugely unrealistic that they could only mean two things about the developer: they were either pulling a scam, or completely deluded about what is feasible in game development.
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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #67 on: February 05, 2015, 12:53:32 pm »
Heh, nobody is as dense and uninformed as these guys were. From the beginning I felt that they were playing dumb in an attempt to run with people's money. Of course the plan backfired, and they're playing the victims now.

But well, assuming they were not just pretending, they're victims of their own inability to read and comprehend, nothing else.

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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #68 on: February 05, 2015, 12:55:14 pm »
I wonder if/should this statement could be something that could also be translated into Japanese (since this is on the front page).

I am fairly sure there's some eyes going in this direction.

Edit: I have decided this should be shared, so excerpted and linked (repeatedly)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 01:14:09 pm by Daya »
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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #69 on: February 05, 2015, 12:57:22 pm »
My regret was that I had not taken a hard look at their crowdfunding goals earlier
Eh, I doubt it would've mattered much. They already had people warning them again it, and they were ignored.

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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #70 on: February 05, 2015, 12:57:40 pm »
Oh, another 30-minute video of shitty animation and shameless bullshit?



The interactions that FSS had with MotK have been in bad faith from Day One, and their entire project is built on embodying the worst aspects of the WTC. Behold the fail that is this clusterfuck, if you must, but a new day dawns. This whole thing is the proverbial fart in the wind. Good riddance to bad garbage.

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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #71 on: February 05, 2015, 01:00:24 pm »
got sone one to post a heads up ok on lenk's page so she doesn't get blindsided by this.

I really hate mobile typing on a bus.

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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #72 on: February 05, 2015, 01:27:52 pm »
1) I do think the moderators swearing at Saijee kinda gave a bad impression in general. Professionalism is nice. Although now it's kind of moot since shit has gone *bonkers* since last time I really tried to pay attention. Not that it didn't go bonkers a bit earlier. The fact that someone can post a screencap of an admin calling someone "shitheel" is...er...kinda poor form I think. >< If this forum is going to try to be a core of western fandom, some amount of professionalism under serious situations seems in order.

*snip*

6) There *were* a bunch of contradictions in people's advice here. "Make a demo NOW." "YOU LOSER YOU MADE A DEMO INSTEAD OF DOING X, Y, AND Z." "Take a break, you're super stressed and losing it." "WHY HAVEN'T YOU ANSWERED US IN A DAY?!"  Though that waned into "good lord he really *isn't* listening" later, but earlier I honestly was...confused what anyone wanted.
These have been my biggest problems with this whole thing (well, at least on this side). Once Saijee said youtube and facebook were his priorities (which may or may not have been justified) people started getting really nasty with him. I can see why he'd be offended- I'd be offended too if I were in his situation. Even if it's good advice, if you say "hey shithead, you should be doing X, Y and Z, idiot" of course no one's going to listen. The whole indiegogo mess was his problem, but the bad blood didn't come just from him.

Of course, now his "professionalism" is at a totally new level of low, so maybe it's a moot point by now.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 01:39:19 pm by TresserT »
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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #73 on: February 05, 2015, 01:42:38 pm »
Woah, woah, woah, woah, WOAH, what the in the world in Gensokyo happened while I was gone from MoTK?  I disappear for a year to work on my own Indie project (Bells), and this whole place goes to hell and back???

Making matters worse, one of the developers who's past work I really respected (FSS's Glass Wing) went ahead and commit dev-suicide?

Personally, I am out of the loop, and I mean *really* out of the loop. But it is very disheartening to see this scandal take place on a community I love so much. Hopefully with enough prayer to the Hakurei Gods, Zun will see it in himself to not hold any bitter taste against our community.

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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #74 on: February 05, 2015, 01:44:15 pm »
TresserT, we've been over this multiple times in the thread too. He never intended to explain the truth to us at MotK, that attitude can be clearly read on the first page of the thread. In his eyes, anybody against him and his will was being ignored or painted black (like with the current video he did).

Diclosing PMs in the public is one thing, but altering them to change their meaning is another thing. Cute that he claims he did that to "protect privacy and kept the original meaning in". But that excuse doesn't fly. Since he altered the meaning of the words knowing they would be understood differently and cause serious damage. And you're wondering why people went nasty with him? Sorry, I don't approve one bit.

Altering content to justify your own lies is just a huge fraud. Especially editing the official global Wiki article of Team Shanghai Alice. And doxxing? Just wow.

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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #75 on: February 05, 2015, 01:44:30 pm »
1) Was all of Ruw's information publicly accessible? Not that throwing it all out there is a good thing at all, but were they being crass or actually illicit?
2) So just for logistics' sake...ZUN is the same as Team Shanghai Alice, a one-man group, *but* there is a company called Kourindou that has more members than *just* TSA/ZUN, including the person FSS claims to have spoken to during this whole debacle and who generally monitors ZUN's copyright issues etc? Did I get this right? Is this claim legit? Just curious; no conspiracy theory involved.
3) *Were* there many changes to the threads made by MotK admins? I thought I noticed some of ShinesBright's posts vanishing, and if I recall from my old days of wanting to delete my art thread, members *can't* delete their own stuff. If there were changes/deletions, why? I didn't look at FSS's "original posts" file, because I have no idea if that is what the original threads looked like or whatever, but are those correct?
4) The part about ZUN's Japanese guidelines having a section that says they don't answer individual groups or circles concerns me, because doesn't ZUN say in another area to contact him with concerns about the guidelines? Why direct people to a blatantly stated dead end?
5) What *is* going on with that Chinese crowdfunded thing?
1) It really doesn't matter. You'll get people who claim that gathering publicly-accessible information isn't doxxing "because it's public", but I can't take such responses seriously at all. Even if this was all commonly-known information, the fact that it's being brought up as though it was "uncovered" makes it what it is. It makes me think of siblings that try to stir up as much shit as possible and try to get away with it by saying they didn't actually do anything "wrong" so they can't be punished. "Don't touch me." "I'm not touching you!". This is the attitude of internet edgemeister shitlords.

2) ZUN is the sole member of the doujin circle Team Shanghai Alice. Kourindou would be a company surrounding TSA for formal purposes, but in any release of published Touhou works it's still labeled as works by Team Shanghai Alice. Kourindou is just the bridge to the business world. Oyamada-san deals with various business matters regarding Team Shanghai Alice, and likely has a "position" at Kourindou but it's mostly irrelevant since a business rep doesn't really have to be a part of the company itself. The whole matter is largely unimportant in the context we're talking about.

3) Some of ShinesBright's posts, along with mine, were moved from the MyACG thread to the FSS thread due to it not really being about MyACG's game; requested by me (there are notes where the posts were moved). This was to not fill up said thread. I wanted to take a break and try to relax (i.e. do my other y'know actual work) before replying since it seemed as though there was a lull waiting until people were refunded, but then FSS had to go on to release another video that only reinforced the notion that they were still working under a bunch of misconceptions and that if they still were willing to keep making a Touhou game they were okay. They then moved forward too quickly again and sent more emails in haste, whereas if we had calmed down and put something together this could have worked out better. Anyways the point is that if they're upset that ShinesBright's questions were forgotten, they only have FSS themselves to blame for rushing ahead and creating more urgent matters to respond to.

4) Part of the issue here is that they were using the contact form for companies who are trying to secure a business relationship, or something of similar nature. It isn't really meant for doujin circles, which is generally why you wouldn't get a reply when using it. The whole section in the guidelines titled "Applications for commercial goods", "you need my permission, so here's a point of contact if necessary" should make it clear that it's for businesses trying to sell Touhou merchandise.
That being said, Moogs and Carrot used said form for questions regarding Danmaku!! and they were fine. Maybe their reply was due to a more properly-formed message, but this isn't inconsistent with the guidelines, just FSS' expectations.

5) If you check the relevant thread the summary is that they took their original actions in ignorance, nobody (including them) thinks it was ok, but that it isn't a big deal all things considered. They still can't make their game for the PS4 but they might still win the dev kit for other games, and this is likely to happen unless contest officials DQ them, which is itself unlikely for a variety of reasons.


I sort of wish ShinesBright wasn't banned because I'm still fully willing to answer her questions. If you're reading this, please understand that I've been spending inordinately huge amounts of time trying to help FSS here. I spent two weeks largely focused on this case and have given up a lot of my valuable time to try and make this thing not a total mess. Throwing you into the equation was another variable I could not timely deal with when FSS was storming ahead with their actions and decisions, which you should realize was much more urgent. I never intended to ignore you whatsoever, and given I had already spent quite a bit of time sitting down and answering you, I would hope that you didn't assume I was ignoring you. Your questions were fairly pertinent for someone new to the fanbase, but as said previously, they mostly would have been answered if you had read and understood the posts made in the FSS thread. Additionally, while you seemed sincere in your attempts to understand the situation, your decision to post the same things everywhere, all the time, and asking things that frankly you wouldn't be asking if you really understood what your responders have said: these are all problems. Especially when you essentially repeat yourself after someone answers a question. It all makes you look insincere and suggests that you don't want to come to an understanding, but simply bury people in mountains of questions, claim they weren't answered and stick to whatever preconceived notions you have. Again though, if you actually willing to have a discussion at this point, hopefully without the biases you've been working under so far, I'm still available.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 01:57:26 pm by Drake »

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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #76 on: February 05, 2015, 01:46:48 pm »
Of course, now his "professionalism" is at a totally new level of low, so maybe it's a moot point by now.
This has been my problem with FSS, which I've been typoing as FFS for a few times now. This is the thing that prompted that post about writing a claim on his stuff. I personally think he'd just give it away at this point. As an indie dev, they've been performing poorly as of late. wonder if it'll take someone like TB to get that one across.

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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #77 on: February 05, 2015, 02:15:04 pm »
These have been my biggest problems with this whole thing (well, at least on this side). Once Saijee said youtube and facebook were his priorities (which may or may not have been justified) people started getting really nasty with him. I can see why he'd be offended- I'd be offended too if I were in his situation.

I agree, but FSS can't use this as an excuse for what they did. There were people actually communicating with and trying to help them (email and Skype), at least since the IGG campaign went up.

I expect there will be a very detailed wiki created specifically to document this event so that a Google search for "FromSoySauce" or "Saijee Higuchi" will immediately show what they did.

[edit] Thank you for deleting my double post below, mod.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 02:21:36 pm by tohosubs »
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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #78 on: February 05, 2015, 02:37:10 pm »
TresserT, we've been over this multiple times in the thread too. He never intended to explain the truth to us at MotK, that attitude can be clearly read on the first page of the thread. In his eyes, anybody against him and his will was being ignored or painted black (like with the current video he did).

Diclosing PMs in the public is one thing, but altering them to change their meaning is another thing. Cute that he claims he did that to "protect privacy and kept the original meaning in". But that excuse doesn't fly. Since he altered the meaning of the words knowing they would be understood differently and cause serious damage. And you're wondering why people went nasty with him? Sorry, I don't approve one bit.

Altering content to justify your own lies is just a huge fraud. Especially editing the official global Wiki article of Team Shanghai Alice. And doxxing? Just wow.
I have to disagree about his attitude towards MotK. You can only say that in hindsight- if it was evident since the beginning that he was a jackass, then nobody would have bothered to help him in the first place. Personally, I don't see any malicious intent in his early posts. You could say he was deliberately trying to keep MotK out of the loop, or you could say he had his priorities elsewhere. It just depends on what you want to view him as.

He only just recently changed the PM. People have been throwing insults since long before then (from what I can see, just before he said youtube was a higher priority than MotK). I get why people have been so upset as of late, but back then it was pretty inexcusable. Of course, I'm not saying this to try and justify his recent actions, which have been downright disgusting, I'm just trying to say that we're not as perfect as we like to pretend. He's handling it like a little kid, but I think his bitterness is justified.

I agree, but FSS can't use this as an excuse for what they did. There were people actually communicating with and trying to help them (email and Skype), at least since the IGG campaign went up.
Oh, yeah, totally. The whole indiegogo thing was just a huge screw up on their part, I'm not disagreing with that at all. And plenty of people offfered decent advice. My problem is that a lot of that good advice was mixed in with/laced with insults. Maybe it was different on skype, and if it was that might change my opinion on the whole thing. But at least here I know that not everyone was exactly friendly towards him. And now people are trying to say "we offered help, he didn't take it, now we're calling him out on it and he's getting butthurt about it". It's not that cut and dry. Though, again, that doesn't excuse his most recent actions.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 02:39:58 pm by TresserT »
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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #79 on: February 05, 2015, 02:38:11 pm »
BTW Saijee/ShinesBright/Shade_ are the same person or were logged in by the same person. All had logins from the same IP within several hours of eachother.

While Shade_ may have legitly been his brother's account, it was hijacked at one point by Saijee. ShinesBright on the other hand, had eerily similar posting styles to FSS and came out of nowhere to defend FSS vehemently.


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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #80 on: February 05, 2015, 02:46:43 pm »
Eh, the Tone Argument being used against MotK rings hollow to me, because a) literally one person used any insults towards FSS (in the discussion thread anyway, and mods were quick to tell them to knock that off), and b) he did indeed display a lot of deliberate trolling/bad faith posting. And not just "in hindsight". How any one user spoke to FSS is completely irrelevant to what was, for many of us, obviously a clusterfuck from Day One, and is further evidenced as such today.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 02:49:17 pm by Tengukami »

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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #81 on: February 05, 2015, 03:00:44 pm »
Im so glad I had a low impression of FSS since the moment things started to get wonky. Cant imagine how it must feel for anyone here who tried to defend their way of doing things only to end in this nuclear trainwreck. As someone who didnt have the guts to watch more than 1 minute of that video, does he even say something about his new proyect or anything else besides bashing against the forum/TSA?

Like I said to Helepolis in youtube (When I tought the drama was over, oh how wrong I were) props to everyone here for sticking with this issue from the start to the very end, I know for sure I wouldn't.

Maybe we should wait for things to cool down and make a hall of "When everything goes wrong". FFS' story would fit perfectly :^)
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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #82 on: February 05, 2015, 03:47:06 pm »
does he even say something about his new proyect or anything else besides bashing against the forum/TSA?

No. The entire video is just a one-sided trainwreck of quote mining, false accusations, PMs that have been blurred out and written over, comments taken out of context to make them look bad, etc etc. A literal trainwreck, even worse than those before.

Also, repeatedly editing the Wikipedia entry for Team Shanghai Alice to try and push the narrative that TSA isn't a one-man team.

Also, doxxing. *Ding!*
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 03:55:04 pm by Flandre5carlet »
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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #83 on: February 05, 2015, 03:50:42 pm »
I agree, but FSS can't use this as an excuse for what they did. There were people actually communicating with and trying to help them (email and Skype), at least since the IGG campaign went up.

I expect there will be a very detailed wiki created specifically to document this event so that a Google search for "FromSoySauce" or "Saijee Higuchi" will immediately show what they did.

[edit] Thank you for deleting my double post below, mod.

I started one like a week ago on Touhou Wiki (that was called out on their Facebook for an apparent minor timeline discrepancy). I tried to document everything that occurred while keeping things as neutral as I could, though I feel I may have skipped over some of the details. To be honest I'm surprised they didn't edit it to try and paint themselves in a better light.

So, anyone that has anything to contribute and has more detail on what went on, feel free to edit that page.

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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #84 on: February 05, 2015, 03:58:41 pm »
I started one like a week ago on Touhou Wiki (that was called out on their Facebook for an apparent minor timeline discrepancy). I tried to document everything that occurred while keeping things as neutral as I could, though I feel I may have skipped over some of the details. To be honest I'm surprised they didn't edit it to try and paint themselves in a better light.

So, anyone that has anything to contribute and has more detail on what went on, feel free to edit that page.

That page is pretty informative as it is; I think it could use a more complete and detailed overview of the controversy from beginning to end(?), however that would take a lot of work, imo.
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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #85 on: February 05, 2015, 04:48:57 pm »
To clarify to everyone: I do *not* think doxxing is okay. At all. I'm sorry my question implied that I thought i twas; that was poor writing on my part. I was honestly just curious if they went full on illegal or if they just used public information in a bad way. Sorry if I implied I was okay with what they did. Herp derp derp on my part there. (Though I do have to say that the amount of google-fu going on in that video is, while not justified, quite impressive.)

I think my attempts to say "good lord tone is important" are falling on deaf ears. At this point I'll agree to disagree here and say that I think tone is critical for PR and reputation purposes as well as getting people to cooperate instead of knee-jerk resist you, but if others are having success without paying lots of attention to diplomacy, that is totally their decision and if it works, it works. You do you.

On totally other news, the revelation to me that Shines, Saijee, and Shade might've all been the same person caused me to headtilt so hard I have to rotate it back into place by hand. Wow. Woooow. ><

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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #86 on: February 05, 2015, 05:08:42 pm »
BTW Saijee/ShinesBright/Shade_ are the same person or were logged in by the same person. All had logins from the same IP within several hours of eachother.

While Shade_ may have legitly been his brother's account, it was hijacked at one point by Saijee. ShinesBright on the other hand, had eerily similar posting styles to FSS and came out of nowhere to defend FSS vehemently.
I'm curious, how can you tell it was hijacked if they all share the same IP? Saijee and his brother probably live together and thus would of course have the same IP. I think I'm missing something here.
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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #87 on: February 05, 2015, 05:26:42 pm »
I think my attempts to say "good lord tone is important" are falling on deaf ears. At this point I'll agree to disagree here and say that I think tone is critical for PR and reputation purposes as well as getting people to cooperate instead of knee-jerk resist you, but if others are having success without paying lots of attention to diplomacy, that is totally their decision and if it works, it works. You do you.

I guess this is a matter of perspective, but what I saw in the discussion thread was a lot of sincere effort to help, expressions of confusion, strongly worded criticism - and a few insults, which were smacked down pretty quickly. From my POV, anyway. I think people forget that criticism is not necessarily an attack or an insult, especially if it's in response to some truly frustrating behavior _after_ the patience and goodwill of others has been exhausted. I see where your coming from, but I think perspective is important, and this mild scolding about tone doesn't really have a connection to FSS's actions then or now. As much as I also subscribe to the whole honey catching more flies thing and agree with you in principle, I do not think Saijee would have behaved any differently if people were super-sweet and nice. To suggest otherwise (and I don't think you are, by the way) is to suggest the lack of sweetness drove him to this behavior, which it demonstrably did not.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 06:02:32 pm by Tengukami »

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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #88 on: February 05, 2015, 05:34:00 pm »
literally one person used any insults towards FSS (in the discussion thread anyway, and mods were quick to tell them to knock that off)

This is something that's bugged me this entire time. In the context of these forums, I've seen more people tell users to lay off the insults than, well, actual insults. What was there other than this (and a couple of the posts right after it) that I missed?
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Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
« Reply #89 on: February 05, 2015, 05:36:45 pm »
I'm curious, how can you tell it was hijacked if they all share the same IP? Saijee and his brother probably live together and thus would of course have the same IP. I think I'm missing something here.
I can believe Shade_ is Saijee's brother and his account got used as a sockpuppet when we whacked Saijee for harassment. Most of Shade_'s posts had a different styke and tone from Saijee's. But ShinesBright's posting style was extremely similar to Saijee's, including, as Helepolis noted, using a particular style to address Helepolis when "she" was angry that Saijee also used. "She" also claimed to only have known about the project from Facebook but had extensive knowledge of things going on here on the forums.

I'm not necessarily saying that Shade_ and ShinesBright weren't real people at one point, but that Saijee very likely used their accounts to continue fighting as if he was a different person when it became clear our patience in dealing with him directly was ending. Maybe he thought that if enough "people" shouted the same things he was we'd clearly learn the errors of our ways and follow the will of the people. A real astroturfing slimeball.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 05:39:31 pm by helvetica »


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