On a certain fangame project by a certain developer

[helvetica]

To go back to what TSO said above:I've spoken to at least three japanese folks about this. Ruw understood right away that this was mostly FSS' problem in particular, but often I've seen the Japanese spectators giving the attempt to "understand" and saying that oh, doujin culture is something foreign to other countries so it's understandable that some people make dumb mistakes due to cultural differences and not knowing any better. While this overall is true, and the culture in Japan is definitely a difference, that isn't to say that the whole fundamental concept of doujin is something not present anywhere but Japan. It is certainly present in western game development along with fanbases that produce any sort of content. The doujin sentiment is present; we just don't have a name for it and don't often think of it as a solid construct. Our culture also tends to blur the line between doujin works, commercial works, and careers. This is why framing doujin works as "hobby" projects is fairly important. More to the point though, is that this is not an excuse for FSS' total lack of understanding, and isn't something that we should have to explain to people (and we almost never have to!). Having rules and guidelines is a different story, but saying "oh let's make a fanwork using so and so's IP and sell it to people! That's totally ok!" just has no such excuses whether that IP is legally protected and actively enforced or not.

I think the big difference is that up until recent history, the fanart/fanfic world was a completely separate world than the general fandom. It also tends to be hugely majorly female. Not to bring in gender politics, but for the most part prior to recent nerddom history the visible fandoms were dominated by the purchasing of commercial paraphernalia in the West (comics, figures, toys, etc). Fanartists and fanfic writers just weren't there. Now with stronger integration of female members, you can see the rise of things such as fanarts and fanfics, along with other things like cosplay, as symbols of fandoms.

The closest parallel to fanfics/fanarts was the modding scene for video games (which was almost exclusively male dominated). Fangames were oftentimes modifications of existing games, rather than completely original works. There was a very cowboy "anything goes" kind of attitude towards IP, and you got notoriety for the amount of ego you had moreso than any actual talent. You could sell your mods at computer shows for the cost of the disks needed to distribute it, but they were essentially free to anyone. They were also almost exclusively released digitally via BBSes and Usenet and other early Internet communities (UMS maps anyone?). A start contrast to the very in-person Comiket. All of that is starting to blur together into the burgeoning indie gaming scene, with two wildly different value systems, so it's only natural there's going to be some teething problems. Eventually though, I imagine we'll settle into an equilibrium not unlike the doujin community, but with some uniquely Western quirks.

We don't quite have the same kind of institution that doujins represent, but at the same time the spirit is there.

[ZXNova]

Well at least they returned all of the money they got from the crowdfunding, right?

[helvetica]

Nobody has ever confirmed to me whether or not they got their money back for backing, but my understanding is that FSS was gonna only issue refunds on request. Even when a campaign is cancelled for being fraudulent IGG rarely if ever returns people's backings. IGG is a really scummy site but being forced a DMCA might have made them forcibly refund everyone though.

[Drake]

Was anyone here a fan of FSS before they went to... what they have become now?

I thought the project was interesting ever since he posted a thread here discussing ideas, and left it alone until Touhoucon 2014 where he had a fairly decent-quality working pre-alpha. That assured me enough that they had the drive to see the project through and could feasibly accomplish it (their list of previous projects was not so convincing). This is why I've been so adamant in trying to help keep the project in line until they decided Touhou would be shed from it, even though I was very upset with how they were handling their crowdfunding situation. I saw definite promise and that much is enough to have not just written this off as a lost cause early on; this is why it's so infuriating that they're being so goddamned stupid with everything outside the game development itself. If they didn't have so much work done, there's no question that their campaign would have fell like a rock and it would have received little attention both critically and by fans.

Nobody has ever confirmed whether or not they got their money back for backing, but my understanding is that FSS was gonna only issue refunds on request. Even when a campaign is cancelled for being fraudulent IGG rarely if ever returns people's backings. IGG is a really scummy site but being forced a DMCA might have made them forcibly refund everyone though.

If their word is to be trusted, many people should already have their money back and if they don't get it soon then they can communicate with FSS and IGG to fix that. We have quite a few members that put money in, so obviously we'll see sooner or later.

[Kilgamayan]

On the subject of refunds, I received a refund a few days ago without actively asking for it.

[helvetica]

Thanks for chiming in on that o7

[Colticide]

Was anyone here a fan of FSS before they went to... what they have become now?

Never been a fan since I consider fan to be just shortened for fanatic, but I followed them since they started their thread. Seen the hate on the models and trying to defend that graphical fidelity wasn't important until later (which still surprises me that people are so adamant on getting the look of the game really good before the mechanics are even finished) and tried offering advice where I could on models. Everything seemed fine then, but wasn't sure if it would go far, looking at image results showed they had tried to post about TSSB on many websites but it never went very far till our forum.

Once they got their video showing moves and what not really made me believe it would work out! Then IGG happened, and the massive support it started getting felt to me like it went to their heads.

[ExPorygon]

Nobody has ever confirmed to me whether or not they got their money back for backing, but my understanding is that FSS was gonna only issue refunds on request. Even when a campaign is cancelled for being fraudulent IGG rarely if ever returns people's backings. IGG is a really scummy site but being forced a DMCA might have made them forcibly refund everyone though.

They never said that refunds needed to be requested. They in fact stated the exact opposite, with refunds being given automatically if you did not respond to their email. Though I still have not received any refund via my paypal, which is what I payed with. They said something along the lines of needing to wait 15 days after the campaign's conclusion to actually get the funds to pay people back but that was before the DMCA takedown.

[Pywackett-Barchetta]

I have not yet received my refund through Paypal yet, either, but I've been hearing a steady stream of people receiving theirs, so it's likely not much longer.

[helvetica]

They never said that refunds needed to be requested. They in fact stated the exact opposite, with refunds being given automatically if you did not respond to their email. Though I still have not received any refund via my paypal, which is what I payed with. They said something along the lines of needing to wait 15 days after the campaign's conclusion to actually get the funds to pay people back but that was before the DMCA takedown.

Huh ok, I must have misremebered that one.

[UTW]

So, I hate to be "Ideas Guy", but why not MoTK just make our own "Touhou Smash"? With Blackjack, and Hookers!

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGzamClGfkI

A mod of Brawl, to be specific. Could be really great, especially if physics are altered.

And unlike that which shall not be named, a mod cannot be corrupted by commercialization.

It's already happening (hopefully) via a few users on reddit.

Was anyone here a fan of FSS before they went to... what they have become now?

<snip>

Ah well, all I can do is try to put this event behind us now right? I don't hate FSS, but I'm really disappointed. I still hope for them to do the right thing.

Do you think they will ever be cleansed of their sin in the eyes of the Touhou community?

I'm much the same as you. I started following midway through Sakuya's development and went back and watched all the devlog videos. I was intrigued and thought he had plenty of good ideas. But here we are.

Maybe to borderline fans who are really only aware of his side and don't know about all the drama or understand why the project was shut down. But to those like us in other more hardcore Touhou communities who are aware it seems he's persona non grata. It's not impossible, but it would take a lot for him to be accepted again. For starters, he needs to adopt some transparency, drop the pretense, maybe abandon Doujin Spirit, or at least learn to work with everyone again re: how to make it not suck and adhere to true "doujin spirit", etc. Personally, I don't think he'll ever make right. He's that delusional. But even if he does and is accepted again, most will treat any and all future FSS projects with a grain of salt, anyway.

[H4xolotl]

How did Danmaku!! get dragged into this?

[Omegahugger]

How did Danmaku!! get dragged into this?

The short of it is, Saijee heard about the program being used to play Danmaku!! using Steam and somehow interpreted that to mean that Danmaku!! itself was distributed on Steam.

[Colticide]

The short of it is, Saijee heard about the program being used to play Danmaku!! using Steam and somehow interpreted that to mean that Danmaku!! itself was distributed on Steam.

I am legit baffled at how the confusion even happened, it makes absolutely no sense.

uhhgg I'm reminded of how Danmaku!! was pronounced... really felt like he was being insulting about it. (I know he was after but the name in general.)

[Lishy1]

Was anyone here a fan of FSS before they went to... what they have become now?

*raises hand*

I was a fan before this happened, much earlier before their Touhou Smash Bros. Project. Now I'm not too sure...

Their older works, like Glass Wing, were pretty good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p3rg9WNCiY

It's a bit of a tragedy, because FromSoySauce was a very promising game developer, with a great portfolio, and awesome imagination. I don't think you can argue that Glass Wing isn't a very original and interesting game.

Unfortunately, he had to go and commit dev-suicide with this stupid Touhou Smash Bros project he obsessed over... I feel bad for the dude.

Do you think they will ever be cleansed of their sin in the eyes of the Touhou community?

It would certainly take a lot to earn back my respect. As a former fan of his work, I feel really betrayed.

What he did is more a crime to fans like me, more than the Touhou fanbase.

[Sahgren]

I can also say that I got a refund a couple days ago. I actually feel really bad about backing the project now; I didn't know much of anything about the project and just kinda assumed that he had gotten ZUN's permission to start the funding ahead of time. Guess it pays to look into that sort of thing before hand.

[Validon98]

I've not been 100% following this whole mess (I can only describe it in the end as a mess) from the beginning, but... yeah, holy crap, I'm just amazed how deeply FSS dug itself a hole and just kept going. I was somewhat willing to let it go after the majority of the crap had been dealt with, but knowing that the people here on MotK who I KNEW were trying to be helpful and give friendly advice so Saijee and the rest could undo their mistakes were attacked and slandered in a clear "bite the hand that feeds" sort of move, I just have to say I'm glad they have dumped this project, and I never want to hear from them ever again.

I just feel sad about what happened. There were such high hopes for this entire project and then this whole trackwreck followed. At the very least, to everyone who got dragged into this, I'm glad you've all been able to deal with it as you had. \o/

[Drake]

The Danmaku!! thing is hilarious because it seems to be one of the things I said that they actually ended up sort of understanding, but they present it in the video as some sort of special snowflake case and then make up a scenario that obviously they think is ridiculous, when really it isn't ridiculous at all.

To get this straight, "you could make a chess game with Touhou characters as pieces and make it playable through a physics sandbox which is only available on Steam". Yes, as far as I can tell, this is entirely acceptable. It makes little sense for anyone to make such a thing the primary option for play since Tabletop Simulator in particular is expensive, and since nobody except TTS devs are getting money there isn't much incentive for anyone involved with the game to choose Steam anyways, but yes, that's a perfectly fine option. Danmaku!! only does it because it was low-effort to set up from a technical perspective and it lets people play across the internet, not because it was a truly good option. Simply put, such a game is not part of TTS, nor is it advertised in or alongside TTS, or anything of the sort. It's a game that's only available by being interested in the source in some respect... unless you distribute the resources for that custom game in wide-reaching channels itself (i.e. the resources that make up the game are still subject to the same rules as if it were a complete standalone product). There's no stopping anyone from making generic content like images and 3D models and then telling people you can import them into X program and do fancy things with it. This is also assuming you aren't charging to download those resources.

For another example, say Touhou Danmakufu wasn't related to Touhou whatsoever and wasn't free. You could make scripts for it, draw Touhou characters for sprites, and make a little game using Danmakufu. In the same way as above, it's a bit silly since you'd be offering your script for free but the platform costs money, which is prohibitive for any audience you're trying to get. But it's still an appropriate method to create and distribute.

If anyone from FSS is reading, here's your answer, I guess?

[Alcoraiden]

Ooh someone brought up criticism in AAA. Made a thread once, someone appeared and said I had no skill and drew like a shitty noob and was 100% full of assholery and bullshit. I never went back. (And no I do not draw like a shitty noob.) Can thus confirm potential ruthlessness.

Er anyway. I am pretty sure the only way for FSS to redeem themselves to totally kill their current online identities and make new unknown ones. The Internet never forgets, and a thousand hells hath no fury like angry fans on the tubes. FSS is screwed, forever, in the Touhou fandom. They will go down in history with White Canvas and the GS card game as epic fails. They will be used as examples till kingdom come. Hell, it's even on the Touhou wiki. Immortalized.

I did get my refund though.

[Leon゠Helsing]

Can a noob ask for a summary of the White Canvas incident? :derp:

[Suspicious person]

Can a noob ask for a summary of the White Canvas incident? :derp:

Good ol' partner White Canvas start distributing Touhou goodies without permission, got their asses handed legally  :V (that's the gist of it. Oversummarized anyway...)

Ooh someone brought up criticism in AAA. Made a thread once, someone appeared and said I had no skill and drew like a shitty noob and was 100% full of assholery and bullshit. I never went back. (And no I do not draw like a shitty noob.) Can thus confirm potential ruthlessness.

Er anyway. I am pretty sure the only way for FSS to redeem themselves to totally kill their current online identities and make new unknown ones. The Internet never forgets, and a thousand hells hath no fury like angry fans on the tubes. FSS is screwed, forever, in the Touhou fandom. They will go down in history with White Canvas and the GS card game as epic fails. They will be used as examples till kingdom come. Hell, it's even on the Touhou wiki. Immortalized.

I did get my refund though.

Well, he got (in)famous.

I don't really believe the GS card game was very grave though, only expectations that were not met.

[[Y]oukai [J]esus]

this incident sounds as butthurt as when the koreans doxx'd our wc3 server

[Mеа]

Ooh someone brought up criticism in AAA. Made a thread once, someone appeared and said I had no skill and drew like a shitty noob and was 100% full of assholery and bullshit. I never went back. (And no I do not draw like a shitty noob.) Can thus confirm potential ruthlessness.

I just checked out your 2 threads. Holy hell that's a train wreck. I feel like apologizing for your terrible experience. (Though he seems to have mellowed a bit(?))

[Blue]

I kinda took a break from Touhou after Touhoucon until now, and coming back and seeing this mess is just...wow. The last time I looked at anything to do with TSSB or FSS was back in September, and after learning about what happened, I'm just really disappointed. The game was looking pretty good from the dev logs that I looked at yesterday after seeing this thread, and just having that potential squandered is pretty sad. I don't know, the way FSS conducted the entire crowdfunding and their reaction to what transpired after just seems so unreal, and the same goes for the ignorance that was displayed by them, just destroying all of the promise that the project had. I didn't watch all of that video that they put up, but from skipping through it, it just seems so...weird.

I'm actually really tired as I'm posting this, so if anything reads weirdly, it's that  :V

[game2011]

Can I please get a clarification?  The game, now renamed Nansei Doujin Spirit, will feature original characters instead of Touhou ones, right?

Thanks in advance!

[Flandre5carlet]

Was anyone here a fan of FSS before they went to... what they have become now?

Not a fan of FSS but I've been following this project since relatively on, when there was only Sakuya; I'm the guy who made him change his mind about his original Reimu "Americanized" main color scheme and had him replace it with her traditional colors while making her alt palettes reminiscent of Western flags, was overall pretty involved in giving feedback (albeit not on MoTK). So it's disheartening to see the project go down the route it did.

Can I please get a clarification?  The game, now renamed Nansei Doujin Spirit, will feature original characters instead of Touhou ones, right?

Yes, it should.

[[Y]oukai [J]esus]

Is it alright for me to publicize this thread and the front page's newest article? Especially that new conversation that Heleo has just posted?
*I have asked around through pm for permission to post but there seems to be no respond so I am asking it again here, sorry =3= *

Is it you the person that posted it on facebook
Or is it a mod of ours? The way of writing sounds like it comes from the guy who banned the perpetrators of this incident yo
Coming from the touhou fanpage

[Peachems]

I was pretty interested in the beginning and followed all of their updates. All I can say now is that I'm really, really disappointed. 

[Aya Reiko]

They will go down in history with White Canvas and the GS card game as epic fails.

Um...  What was the GS card game?  I've heard of Touhou Ginfuritsu, but I doubt that's what you're talking about here.

[Flandre5carlet]

Um...  What was the GS card game?  I've heard of Touhou Ginfuritsu, but I doubt that's what you're talking about here.

GS System, a Touhou trading card game project that was crowdfunding via Kickstarter before shutting down following talks with Team Shanghai Alice.
Saijee extensively used this project early on to try and push his own crowdfunding as okay, with potentially made up stories that he "spoke with the people behind the GS System project" and that they gave him a "much different story" than what is written on the Kickstarter, namely the following:

We, and Team Shanghai Alice, have concluded that Kickstarter is not an appropriate method regarding production of dōjinshi materials for Touhou Project. The reason for this is because receiving funds before production is considered an investment, and a method like this can not yet be recognized with the production of dōjinshi materials for Touhou Project.