Topic: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines  (Read 34481 times)

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ExPorygon

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #60 on: January 29, 2015, 04:49:16 pm »
I guess I should have been more specific. Can you link to where the touhou like sounds are on the site?
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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #61 on: January 29, 2015, 05:07:21 pm »
shit my circle name has touhou in it kanji and all doushio
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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #62 on: January 29, 2015, 06:50:27 pm »
Can you link to where the touhou like sounds are on the site?
There isn't a specific section; just search 東方 and you'll get results. I recommend that you search by most views/downloads (third option and fifth option in the dropdown box, respectively).

When you click to download a file, take note of the licensing page that shows up. Some of them are not allowed to be used for-profit, while some others can.

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #63 on: January 29, 2015, 07:39:36 pm »
Most of ZUN's sound effects are not his original creations; he took them from a source and modified them a bit (I can't remember the exact source). The fangames work around this by getting the sounds from the original source and working from there, as opposed to using ZUN's actual data.
No, they use a few original sound effects but they do use plenty of ZUN's sounds too. The ones that aren't from the official games are very easy to spot.

Quote
They could have recreated it themselves, OR they could have gotten them from Nico Commons, which hosts an abundant amount of Touhou-like materials. The users over at Nico Commons would still employ the same aforementioned method to recreate the sound effects.
Don't assume that just because it has commons in the name that it's anything like wikimedia commons, where everything is either original, self made content and/or uses a free license. A lot of sound effects from Nico Commons are taken straight from Touhou and other games.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 07:44:19 pm by Not Bigode »

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #64 on: January 29, 2015, 08:14:15 pm »
None of the sounds on Nico Commons (at least from what I've seen) credit ZUN, despite sounding like exact rips. I would be very surprised if they were indeed rips but gave no credit as to their source. I think gtbot's assertion is more likely to be correct, and that a large amount of ZUN's sound effects are derived from a specific source and other people have mimicked them by using the same source. It would explain why the sound effects alone in those fangames appear to be ripped while literally EVERYTHING else is original.
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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #65 on: January 29, 2015, 08:30:44 pm »
They're not mimicked, they're _exactly_ the same as ZUN's. Listen to them side by side. They're even 22.05Khz/8 bit files like the originals, while the custom made sounds are 44.1Khz/16 bits. Hell, they even have the exact same reverb effect that ZUN added to these sounds after MoF. You don't need to be an audio specialist with golden ears to be able to tell that these are straight rips.

ExPorygon

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #66 on: January 29, 2015, 08:48:44 pm »
Alright, sheesh, I can't exactly listen to them side by side right now cause I'm at work.

Still, I ask why no credit then? Why not say that they're rips?
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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #67 on: January 29, 2015, 10:16:21 pm »
I am going to move the above posts to the Q&A thread. Only the ones after gtbot pointed our the website. While it is valuable and valid questions/answers, it is quite specific based on the sounds themselves and not really the guidelines. There might be relationship of course (hence valid posts made) but still going to split them.

Apologies for the strict moderation but I have to apply it for now.


Edit: 2nd rereading, I think breaking/splitting it now would cause lots of confusion noise. Leaving it for now, but please refrain from too much going into the technical aspects of the sounds. I am also quite interested in them as Ozzy also posted in my project thread, so perhaps we can continue the technical things at the Q&A?  Apologies for this post edit.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 10:19:41 pm by Helepolis »
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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #68 on: January 30, 2015, 07:00:44 am »
They're not mimicked, they're _exactly_ the same as ZUN's. Listen to them side by side. They're even 22.05Khz/8 bit files like the originals, while the custom made sounds are 44.1Khz/16 bits. Hell, they even have the exact same reverb effect that ZUN added to these sounds after MoF. You don't need to be an audio specialist with golden ears to be able to tell that these are straight rips.

Actually, some of them are 44.1KHz. Even so, there are comments translating to "You borrowed [ripped] it".
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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #69 on: February 04, 2015, 08:45:39 pm »
Ok I'm not a legal expert but I tried looking into the questions about music and bandcamp that had been asked earlier.

AFAIK Most Touhou fanmusic would fall under transformative works. And once they do I don't think any of the creative common rules set by ZUN/Shanghai Alice are relevant when discussing the legality of the work. If ZUN feels like a muscial work is similar enough to his own he can still try to enforce copyright but from what I can tell it's a really hard case for him to make and he would have to go through the courts of whichever country is hosting the material (probably the US in case of bandcamp).

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #70 on: February 07, 2015, 07:17:52 am »
Hello,I am here to ask some questions I am worried about. I am very very worried about what engines I am and not allowed to use, I also wish to be a good guy and follow guidelines best I can I am not a pro and I am noob, I also wanna ask (not saying it's happening anytime soon maybe not for years) after I get experience what is the possibilities for MMOs? I am currently going for a ARPG version of a hack and slash touhou fan made with danmaku. I want to go for something like metal gear rising but I know that is not likely especially when I am new and alone, so it will prob be a sprite hack and slash combat system like metal gear rising but with typical flying and far less pretty graphics.  Again please don't be mad I am new at this ><

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #71 on: February 07, 2015, 08:17:58 am »
Hello,I am here to ask some questions I am worried about. I am very very worried about what engines I am and not allowed to use, I also wish to be a good guy and follow guidelines best I can I am not a pro and I am noob, I also wanna ask (not saying it's happening anytime soon maybe not for years) after I get experience what is the possibilities for MMOs? I am currently going for a ARPG version of a hack and slash touhou fan made with danmaku. I want to go for something like metal gear rising but I know that is not likely especially when I am new and alone, so it will prob be a sprite hack and slash combat system like metal gear rising but with typical flying and far less pretty graphics.  Again please don't be mad I am new at this ><
There is no engine limitation or usage of tools / techniques to create Touhou derived games.

If you mention MMO, that means you're aiming for a massive multiplayer online. I think your main concern would be the technical difficulties in realising this. How are you going to let hundreds of people play together?
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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2015, 01:43:18 pm »
There is no engine limitation or usage of tools / techniques to create Touhou derived games.

If you mention MMO, that means you're aiming for a massive multiplayer online. I think your main concern would be the technical difficulties in realising this. How are you going to let hundreds of people play together?


I am familiar with MMOs and their requirements,like sites you needs a server and the specs that server requires may vary from the size of the game to how many people you plan on connecting/channels that you require.MMOs also have skill level requirements you need alot of need to know concepts many suggest MMOs *NOT* being  your first project.

By MMO concern I am well aware that pay2win is strictly forbidden because that counts as donations as well (just a bit more dirty on how it is executed it's a level below scamming but donations none the less) what I was worried about because of the fact pay to win and selling extra features exist the risk of MMOs at all being allowed was my main concern.Even with approval my MMO goal wouldn't be financial based either it would be a a community aimed goal to experiment who far a community can immerse with with touhou and how it can support itself legally.If it would of ended up full of profits I would of gotten nervous and shut the thing down myself or hand it to someone who can handle it without getting greedy.

- I had a discussion with my friend MMO would be very tricky, you would need a free host and have the game entirely free to play and free to win, Sponsors if you find one for a host would work if they did not expect anything specific in return especially money MMO is very unlikely according to what me and my friend discussed, you could still use a host and pay rent but it cannot be commercial rewarding which removes all sense of pay2win and pay2play methods,in other worse you will need to find another source of funding to pay for the host which would require either a really good paying job or whatever -



My current all together goal is the ARPG I mentioned first the other question was a safety measure to help me and mere curiosity from a developers perspective,I am not doing an MMO as my 1st project.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 08:57:51 pm by FallenLegacy »

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2015, 08:59:27 pm »
Your intuition is pretty much right. Having such a game require payment at all besides an original purchase would be wholly unacceptable, and even then it would be subject to the same rules of distribution as everything else. MMOs thrive on their accessibility and method of distribution, so trying to keep an MMO as a doujin game is even more risky, expensive, and filled with pitfalls than making an MMO in the first place (which is very risky, expensive, and filled with pitfalls). I'd be floored if such a project worked out.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 09:01:28 pm by Drake »

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FallenLegacy

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #74 on: February 07, 2015, 10:04:48 pm »
Your intuition is pretty much right. Having such a game require payment at all besides an original purchase would be wholly unacceptable, and even then it would be subject to the same rules of distribution as everything else. MMOs thrive on their accessibility and method of distribution, so trying to keep an MMO as a doujin game is even more risky, expensive, and filled with pitfalls than making an MMO in the first place (which is very risky, expensive, and filled with pitfalls). I'd be floored if such a project worked out.

MMOs feel extremely greylined on the guidelines period,even if you manage to host the MMO and create the MMO while following the guidelines it is still unstable, and as unstable as it is it may worry Zun and he might directly disapprove based on how much attention this MMO would give and how sketchy it would look. From my personal view if my series supported fan games and I saw an MMO out I would be pretty worried as to how stable the whole project is and how it is following the guidelines to the point I do no want it to exist, it would be something that would need baby sat all the time to make sure it's not going to pull anything later and I would make the MMO close because I don't have time to baby sit. I am not saying Zun would do this but MMOs are not to be trusted they can turn nasty,greedy,and illegal at any moment I mean look at KoG and their path. It is wise to assume that there are too many traps involved to get full blessings for an MMO.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 10:07:50 pm by FallenLegacy »

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #75 on: February 07, 2015, 10:46:57 pm »
Like I said before as well, MMOs are games that are just extremely difficult and expensive to produce and manage in the first place. To even get to the point where this hypothetical applies, you're already banking on the other hypothetical that the game could be feasibly made in the first place.

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #76 on: February 20, 2015, 03:08:02 am »
I had a chat with Ruw and D.N.A. a few days ago and I asked for clarification on a few points regarding the guidelines and stuff.

I learned there is no plan to update the guidelines or even create an officially sanctioned translation. This is my take, but it seems to me that they believe the recent fiasco was more of an outlier, and most people are reasonable enough to not go against them, because even if you don't understand doujin culture, you probably have enough common sense not to flagrantly use someone else's IP.

I then asked about ways to sell Touhou doujin games outside of Japan. It was reiterated that selling physical copies through personal websites are OK (D.N.A. has one of his own), and free downloads are also fine. Additionally, DLsite along with Melonbooks and Toranoana's digital distribution stores were authorized (but not Gumroad). As far as selling them at meet-ups, they would have to be either Touhou-centered (such as Touhoucon), focused on selling self-made games in general (assuming whatever organization running it would allow the sale of fan-made games), or other Comiket-like environments (selling independent/fan works, admittedly fairly uncommon). This excludes anime conventions though, even if they have artist's alleys.

I'm not saying to take this as straight from ZUN's mouth or anything, but hopefully it should give a better understanding all around.

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #77 on: February 20, 2015, 04:22:57 am »
I had a chat with Ruw and D.N.A. a few days ago and I asked for clarification on a few points regarding the guidelines and stuff.

Thank you. This will prove helpful in figuring out what can and cannot be done.

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #78 on: February 20, 2015, 05:01:25 am »
A note on excluding anime conventions: although this generally goes along with the sentiment of not selling Touhou fan material outside the context of the original series and so forth, the structure of conventions in Japan and NA (and likely Europe, etc) are different in that western conventions largely are built on interest-specific panels. Selling Touhou doujin material within the bounds of a Touhou-related panel (rather than a generic dealer room) is almost certainly acceptable, as one would expect most people who visit a panel are already acquainted with the series.

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #79 on: February 20, 2015, 06:47:37 am »
Like Anime Boston - Touhou Panel ?

because even if you don't understand doujin culture, you probably have enough common sense not to flagrantly use someone else's IP.
This pretty much goes for any thing in general. Common sense to commit some research, ask around and gather knowledge. Thanks for the talk/information.

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #80 on: February 20, 2015, 11:02:04 am »
I feel like there's a disconnect somewhere, maybe on my end since I'm the one who is confused.

But  I don't understand the exclusion of artist alleys as that's exactly where you see fangames and other fanworks today.   Yes the west focuses on individual fanart prints but that doesn't mean that self made books, music cds, games, and toys don't exist.   Every artist's alley I've been to has been a mini comiket, minus having porn everywhere.

Playing Danmaku!! at conventions over the past two years I have literally asked hundreds of convention goers if they know what Touhou is and freaking all of them do.  Touhou's reputation proceeds it, mostly because of the massive fanwork community. 

Then if what Drake says is is true, I could call up the convention organisers and create a Touhou event, which any person can walk into, and selling stuff there would be okay?  I can see this annoying the organisers actually, "this is what the dealer's room/artist's alley is for", but I know the tabletop game rooms do sales sometimes.

If the entire point is to sell in the places where IP laws get turned a blind eye to, I don't think anyone has anything to worry about.


I dunno, this thread took a weird turn but I feel like the only person who thinks so.
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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #81 on: February 20, 2015, 12:28:04 pm »
The thing also in the west is that there are cluttered number of cons going on. I am not sure in terms of Touhou in the east, but a random con there won't have a Touhou orientated offer or booths (correct me if I am wrong). Comic cons or anime cons in the west are more general and this is where the thing gets complicated.

If I were to strictly judge myself, a regular con anywhere, including Japan, would  conflict with the guidelines of Touhou. Because it is the same reason with ZUN saying that promoting Touhou in an environment where Touhou is "unknown" or can create "wrong assumptions".

So preferable is that Touhou name it self is clearly announced to avoid any assumption or false "promotion". An artist's alley is too general as it entails "art work". And it can be also non-anime/manga/doujin. So I think the most important constraint is to define Touhou it self and the event as a strict Doujin event?

What I elicit from Forza and Ruw/DNA is that defining Touhou + Doujin is the most important factor for offline events. So Anime Boston with Touhou panel == safe. Random anime con with general artist galley != safe.

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #82 on: February 20, 2015, 01:05:00 pm »
What about having your stuff sold at importer booths, kinda like that NY bases group and Hendane, which both had imported Touhou stuff?

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #83 on: February 20, 2015, 02:22:16 pm »
What about having your stuff sold at importer booths, kinda like that NY bases group and Hendane, which both had imported Touhou stuff?
Afaik violation of Touhou guidelines, right? Because they are unaffiliated stores/merchants or non-doujin related in general. There are also pretty much a lot of import stores online which also sell Touhou merchandise by import/shipping them. I remember in 2009 I bought one from some yahoo merchant.

But I think we're out the scope here. There is absolutely no end to asking these questions related to merchants/shops selling Touhou good. We're here concerned about fan-work made by individuals who want to promote/spread/sell their work (Doujin activities). Selling stuff by import != a Doujin activity. And if you let your work sold through such methods you're also violating the guidelines.

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #84 on: February 20, 2015, 05:12:07 pm »
The thing also in the west is that there are cluttered number of cons going on. I am not sure in terms of Touhou in the east, but a random con there won't have a Touhou orientated offer or booths (correct me if I am wrong). Comic cons or anime cons in the west are more general and this is where the thing gets complicated.

If I were to strictly judge myself, a regular con anywhere, including Japan, would  conflict with the guidelines of Touhou. Because it is the same reason with ZUN saying that promoting Touhou in an environment where Touhou is "unknown" or can create "wrong assumptions".

So preferable is that Touhou name it self is clearly announced to avoid any assumption or false "promotion". An artist's alley is too general as it entails "art work". And it can be also non-anime/manga/doujin. So I think the most important constraint is to define Touhou it self and the event as a strict Doujin event?

What I elicit from Forza and Ruw/DNA is that defining Touhou + Doujin is the most important factor for offline events. So Anime Boston with Touhou panel == safe. Random anime con with general artist galley != safe.

Now that I'm not posting in the middle of the night, my point is that conventions already have a doujin event, they just call it Artist's Alley, which has become a misnomer for what actually goes on.   Sometimes non-art is seperated off into a Dealer's Room where you'll find stuff like toys and games, but that leaves things like books and music still in AA.  These places are loaded with self published fanworks and original works, and in Dealer's Rooms you can always find Japanese doujin goods being resold.

I'm not trying to be difficult here, I just think excluding artist alleys doesn't help anyone because those are doujin events.
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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #85 on: February 20, 2015, 06:07:44 pm »
Now that I'm not posting in the middle of the night, my point is that conventions already have a doujin event, they just call it Artist's Alley, which has become a misnomer for what actually goes on.   Sometimes non-art is seperated off into a Dealer's Room where you'll find stuff like toys and games, but that leaves things like books and music still in AA.  These places are loaded with self published fanworks and original works, and in Dealer's Rooms you can always find Japanese doujin goods being resold.

I'm not trying to be difficult here, I just think excluding artist alleys doesn't help anyone because those are doujin events.
I can kinda understand this, you can either be doujin or indie and be able to get in an AA area.

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #86 on: February 21, 2015, 01:52:35 am »
The scope of our conversation only covered video games, really. I didn't think to ask about music/comics, but comics should be fine in an artist alley-type setting.

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #87 on: February 23, 2015, 02:45:26 am »
I used to assumed Touhou Derivative works are not allowed to be sold by digital distribution.

But then,

http://dl.getchu.com/index.php?action=gd&gcd=D0032467&cp=

I have found Touhou Kokishin (Remilia 3D Action game) here.

Now, I confuse. Selling Touhou fangames by digital distribution is allowed or not ?

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #88 on: February 23, 2015, 08:01:23 am »
Pretty sure getchu is like some of the other doujin download site like melonbooks.

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #89 on: February 23, 2015, 08:06:11 am »
Playism is also selling DDC and the Remilia game, so I imagine ZUN is willing to make exceptions.
 

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