Topic: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines  (Read 34414 times)

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Drake

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #120 on: May 16, 2016, 05:48:38 pm »
A publishing deal would result in commercial sales, but that wouldn't make it an official game. For example, the works in the Play,Doujin! initiative are being published, but they still aren't official games (besides ULiL).

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #121 on: May 16, 2016, 05:57:14 pm »
Searching in my email I can find us talking about the contest but no mention of the name.  I don't remember what won.  I have this weird hunch it might have been Superfight
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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #122 on: May 16, 2016, 07:47:38 pm »
@Drake

Oh, okay. Now I undrestand it fully. Thanks.

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #123 on: February 07, 2017, 05:30:08 am »
I'm not entirely sure if this is the appropriate place to ask this, but it seems about closest than anything else, and I didn't want to make an entire new topic so...

I was wondering if it was discouraged to make a game from Danmakufu that plays the same as Touhou, but contain no Touhou characters, and is just it's own story. Would that be considered stealing a game mechanic, or abusing the program to use to make my own game? No publishing, or payment.

Also, this is more of a personal question, but using my own characters wouldn't make everyone hate it, or angry, right?

I'm having a hard time explaining my question, so I hope you guys understand it.
task FiteMe{
    loop{
          let m = atan2(MyFistY-YourFaceY,MyFistX-YourFaceX);
          Punch01(GetMyX,GetMyY,100,m,REDFIST01,0);
          wait(1);  }     }

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #124 on: February 07, 2017, 06:17:50 am »
Of course you're not obligated to make it a Touhou fangame. It's the same as any other free engine. Many games made with Danmakufu have original stories and characters.

Sparen

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #125 on: February 07, 2017, 06:19:29 am »
I'm not entirely sure if this is the appropriate place to ask this, but it seems about closest than anything else, and I didn't want to make an entire new topic so...

I was wondering if it was discouraged to make a game from Danmakufu that plays the same as Touhou, but contain no Touhou characters, and is just it's own story. Would that be considered stealing a game mechanic, or abusing the program to use to make my own game? No publishing, or payment.

Also, this is more of a personal question, but using my own characters wouldn't make everyone hate it, or angry, right?

I'm having a hard time explaining my question, so I hope you guys understand it.

Danmakufu's license states the following:

Code: [Select]
Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are
met:

    * Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
      notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
    * Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above
      copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following
      disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided
      with the distribution.
    * Neither the name of the Hiroshima University nor the names of
      its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products
      derived from this software without specific prior written
      permission.

You can basically use Danmakufu for anything as long as you include the DNH license.

The shmup is a genre, so as long as you don't contain ANY Touhou characters and do not use ANY of ZUN's resources, you're in the clear. Refer to Len'en as a successful example.

If you do make a Danmaku game without any connection to Touhou, be prepared to not face hate or anger but rather ignorance. You're going to have to put effort into marketing your game if you want people to play it. For me at least, I've been working on a danmaku game for two years and I can count the number of people willing to playtest the game with the fingers on my hands.

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #126 on: February 07, 2017, 06:03:00 pm »
Thank you so much!
task FiteMe{
    loop{
          let m = atan2(MyFistY-YourFaceY,MyFistX-YourFaceX);
          Punch01(GetMyX,GetMyY,100,m,REDFIST01,0);
          wait(1);  }     }

james7132

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #127 on: July 26, 2017, 09:28:53 am »
I know of Bandcamp as a potential grey area when it comes to distribution, with it's Pay What you Want payment scheme and sub-website (platform acts as host to each user's personal mini-website) layout. This brings into question whether it is a questionable "OK" to  distribute Touhou fangames on sites like https://itch.io, which have similar setup of personalized sub-website and pay what you want. Is it?

Drake

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #128 on: July 26, 2017, 10:27:48 am »
The fact that it's still definitely geared towards promotion within the site itself through stuff like browsing/searching and popularity/ratings, makes it definitely more dangerous than bandcamp. Are there even good examples of other such derivative works being on itch? I've never really seen any. Ultimately I think ZUN would parade something like itch for indie development, but that isn't really the issue.

One of the dangers I think exists with any kind of platform used to start uploading/selling Touhou derivative works, and I'm sure this was also part of why the derivative guidelines are worded as such, is that once something is seen as a precedent, anything becomes fair game. If it becomes seen as legitimate and works start popping up everywhere, the isolation factor begins to unravel. It's also quite difficult to moderate any system that isn't closely tied to the doujin scene (heck, look at the total lack of moderation over Steam despite it being disallowed and often being stolen content). This isn't a problem with many similar japanese sites due to the ecosystem but I don't really know how it would be feasible to cross that gap from the western side. It's a tough question.

Selling on something like DLsite is like a working option, legitimacy-wise. They are explicitly a doujin shop with a non-trivial amount of Touhou works, with some big names to its credit, and there is official english support including for creators. That being said their tools are definitely not as amazing as itch, and I don't think there is PWYW or anything like that, so if the goal is to be able to capitalize on features like that it obviously doesn't work. But it is an actual option for digital distribution and sales.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 10:43:51 am by Drake »

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james7132

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #129 on: July 27, 2017, 11:49:48 pm »
The fact that it's still definitely geared towards promotion within the site itself through stuff like browsing/searching and popularity/ratings, makes it definitely more dangerous than bandcamp. Are there even good examples of other such derivative works being on itch? I've never really seen any. Ultimately I think ZUN would parade something like itch for indie development, but that isn't really the issue.

Bandcamp definitely has the aforementioned search and ratings (as a function of recent download/purchase rate), so I would argue that it isn't exactly all that much different. It is true that there is no major precedent for Touhou derivative works being distributed via the platform. I'll definitely take a look at what's needed to put something on DLsite, didn't know they had self-publishing tools.

Another question regarding this, where does Patreon stand in all of this? A lot of doujin creators use it from minusT to LunarSpotlightMedia of Gensokyo Radio to the plethora of artists that draw Touhou. Arguably, it avoids the crowdfunding/donation issue by taking it as a donation directly to the creator rather than donating towards the explicit end-product. Giving perks/exclusive content is also pretty common case there. It may not be directly crowdfunding, but it shares a lot of similarities with it. Admittedly many people who have them do not exclusively create Touhou content, but, in some cases like minusT, it's pretty darn apparent that their sole focus is to create Touhou doujin content.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 11:53:51 pm by james7132 »

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #130 on: September 25, 2017, 04:23:23 pm »
Its a can of worms to open but I wanted to ask if there's anything in the guidelines that is meant to be prohibiting the way touhou is treated on twitch.tv. Theres several channels that are basically just gaming channels that cater to the ironic weeaboo cropped porn steam avatar crowd who use the name of touhou characters and the series in general to attract an audience, who can purchase touhou character themed emotes by subscribing to them and paying a monthly fee.

The only problem I see is that these people don't actually create anything, and aren't technically selling anything either. I'm fairly certain this is against ZUN's wishes however since it is using his intellectual property and broadcasting his work to a larger than intended audience, "selling" online while unaffiliated with dojin or TSA,

« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 04:25:42 pm by RH »

Drake

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #131 on: September 25, 2017, 11:27:10 pm »
There has been explicit acceptance of people being able to monetize video content through partnership programs on Nico with people playing Touhou and whatnot, and this kind of precedence likely extends towards something like Twitch streaming and/or Youtube videos of Touhou and fangames, etc. However this does not necessarily extend to using the Touhou brand superficially, where the works are not the focus of the content.

This is not as clean-cut as something like LINE stamps, which cannot be distributed for free, and are forbidden to be created without permission from the copyright holder. Twitch doesn't have such a policy for sub emotes and just warns you that you're liable to having action taken against you if the IP holder gets mad; obviously it thrives on emotes based on video games and is full of minor cases of infringement of much larger rights holders than ZUN.

As far as ZUN's guidelines go, the "purchase" and usage is similar to LINE stamps, and I would be on the side of saying this is unapproved usage. The fact that subbing doesn't intrinsically get you much besides the emotes suggests it's a purchase of that specific content (in contrast to something like a Patreon, although that's a whole other mess), additionally being able to bring emotes outside of the subbed channel, giving people the external incentive to sub, could also be seen as a form of public marketing. Twitch clearly has no problems with any of this because of the cut they receive from all subscriptions.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 11:31:18 pm by Drake »

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #132 on: March 13, 2018, 11:33:23 pm »
It's been a few months since ZUN basically gave full permission for fan game makers to upload their games onto Steam. Drake went on to mention that this thread's first post (along with the Wiki's Copyright page) need reworking. I heavily agree with him, especially after spending 10 minutes looking through that thread to find the part where ZUN made his statements on the matter.
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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #133 on: April 05, 2018, 04:20:17 pm »
What I am going to do is read the all official and hopefully properly translated material and then update the opening post. Most likely the second post will be cleared out as it is currently more confusing than ever.


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HumanReploidJP

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #134 on: June 16, 2018, 10:38:41 am »
  • If you decide to release your work on your own website, you are not allowed to ask money for it.
  • Additionally, you are not allowed to sell your work online through websites or programs if they:
    • Don't have relationship with Touhou Project or ZUN.
    • Are not Doujin orientated. (For example: Devian Art is NOT a Doujin and Touhou affiliated website. You can post art, but cannot sell it.)
I would understand how that actually works. Posting artworks that's based on the touhou series, and are NOT allowed for commercial use.

There's also this quote that ZUN persuades artists the most: "If you need data rather than screenshots, please make them yourself."

It's similar that it's different, in contrast that artworks based on the touhou series are allowed to post, but NOT for commercial use.

Story of my life, read my lou (letter of understanding) reaction in the description of my above made 'non-commercial (NO MONEY ALLOWED. Period.)' artwork posted at pixiv by clicking the link to read it: https://pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=69258272 then click 続きを読む(read more) one you're on the website.

I'm not gonna get into deep verge of troublesome tragedies if you react to this. Let me know...
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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #135 on: June 16, 2018, 11:18:25 am »
Danmakufu's license states the following:

Code: [Select]
Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are
met:

    * Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
      notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
    * Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above
      copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following
      disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided
      with the distribution.
    * Neither the name of the Hiroshima University nor the names of
      its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products
      derived from this software without specific prior written
      permission.

You can basically use Danmakufu for anything as long as you include the DNH license.

The shmup is a genre, so as long as you don't contain ANY Touhou characters and do not use ANY of ZUN's resources, you're in the clear. Refer to Len'en as a successful example.

If you do make a Danmaku game without any connection to Touhou, be prepared to not face hate or anger but rather ignorance. You're going to have to put effort into marketing your game if you want people to play it. For me at least, I've been working on a danmaku game for two years and I can count the number of people willing to playtest the game with the fingers on my hands.

Quick question: Do you actually plan to make a fan game that doesn't contain touhou characters with the DNH license? Why, if so?

P.S. I'm not trying to blame the circumstances based on copyright terms based on the DNH, but just to research about how any fan-made game that does/doesn't contain touhou characters using DNH does.
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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #136 on: June 16, 2018, 03:01:33 pm »
Quick question: Do you actually plan to make a fan game that doesn't contain touhou characters with the DNH license? Why, if so?

P.S. I'm not trying to blame the circumstances based on copyright terms based on the DNH, but just to research about how any fan-made game that does/doesn't contain touhou characters using DNH does.

Next time, please bring this up on my project thread rather than in this one, but to answer your question:

Danmakufu is a surprisingly versatile tool that can be used for things other than SHMUPs. In addition, it is currently one of the best options available specifically for SHMUPs. Personally, if you made me choose between Unity 2D, Godot, Game Maker, or Danmakufu, for this specific genre I would always choose Danmakufu 100% of the time.

Not all SHMUPs are Touhou based, and if someone wants to make a danmaku SHMUP with or without Touhou characters, Danmakufu is a viable choice.

-----

Note: You stated the following:
Quote
Quick question: Do you actually plan to make a fan game that doesn't contain touhou characters with the DNH license? Why, if so?
By asking if I am making a fan game without Touhou characters, you are insinuating that I am making a fan game of another franchise. Technically, my main project is not a fan game but a standalone Touhou-inspired danmaku SHMUP with no connection to the Touhou universe except for the fact that Touhou's existence is known as a franchise.

A few months ago we had a discussion on RaNGE whether Touhou-inspired games were allowed on RaNGE, and that might be an interesting read as well.

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #137 on: June 16, 2018, 11:54:20 pm »
Next time, please bring this up on my project thread rather than in this one, but to answer your question:

Danmakufu is a surprisingly versatile tool that can be used for things other than SHMUPs. In addition, it is currently one of the best options available specifically for SHMUPs. Personally, if you made me choose between Unity 2D, Godot, Game Maker, or Danmakufu, for this specific genre I would always choose Danmakufu 100% of the time.

Not all SHMUPs are Touhou based, and if someone wants to make a danmaku SHMUP with or without Touhou characters, Danmakufu is a viable choice.

-----

Note: You stated the following:By asking if I am making a fan game without Touhou characters, you are insinuating that I am making a fan game of another franchise. Technically, my main project is not a fan game but a standalone Touhou-inspired danmaku SHMUP with no connection to the Touhou universe except for the fact that Touhou's existence is known as a franchise.

A few months ago we had a discussion on RaNGE whether Touhou-inspired games were allowed on RaNGE, and that might be an interesting read as well.

Oh... I think I understand now. thanks...

Quote
Note: You stated the following:By asking if I am making a fan game without Touhou characters, you are insinuating that I am making a fan game of another franchise. Technically, my main project is not a fan game but a standalone Touhou-inspired danmaku SHMUP with no connection to the Touhou universe except for the fact that Touhou's existence is known as a franchise.

And I'm not insinuating in any ways, but I'm just trying to be specific, in a responsible way. My mistake...
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HumanReploidJP

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #138 on: June 21, 2018, 03:53:16 am »
I'm confused when I test Danmakufu with my practice while I live in Philippines at the Southeast Asia...

But for real... What's the difference about creating a touhou fangame that would work for money or work for no money? And where do fanmade touhou programmers work with competence?

Because 6 days ago, I understand that making fanmade touhou games that contains another franchise game (i.e., Steins; Gate, To Aru Kagaku no Railgun, etc.) is forbidden... (Thanks, SparenofIria).

Anyone out there, please respond. Thank you...
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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #139 on: June 21, 2018, 01:46:33 pm »
I'm confused when I test Danmakufu with my practice while I live in Philippines at the Southeast Asia...

But for real... What's the difference about creating a touhou fangame that would work for money or work for no money? And where do fanmade touhou programmers work with competence?

Because 6 days ago, I understand that making fanmade touhou games that contains another franchise game (i.e., Steins; Gate, To Aru Kagaku no Railgun, etc.) is forbidden... (Thanks, SparenofIria).

Anyone out there, please respond. Thank you...

In general, unless you have written permission/a license from the original creator, selling fan games is, simply put, illegal. Touhou is a gray area in that it's an open IP, but I would advise against trying to make money off of your Touhou fan game. In general, I personally feel the money you expect to make by selling a Touhou fan game should only offset development costs/cost of printing CDs/cost of purchasing a booth at a convention.

So if you plan to sell a Touhou fangame on Steam and charge 40 dollars for it, I'm going to advise against that unless ZUN has specifically OK'd it.

(Note that this post is purely my opinion - I am not a legal expert and should not be treated as such).

HumanReploidJP

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #140 on: June 25, 2018, 11:07:25 am »
Hmm... Speaking of which... What about the fangames with crossovers (i.e., Phantasmagoria of Imagine Breaker made by Gore: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Re.Phantasmagoria_of_Imagine_Breaker), would that be considered illegal, unless they are specified with the original authors' permission?

If so, then I would regret this... after I cancel my circle which I will make it 5 years from now (take a look at my signature below... MiraikeiBudoukan (Futuristic Vineyard), which it's my own original circle (like JynX, the developer of the Len'en series. So, my bullet-hell-inspired game concept would be "Star of Idols/Aidoruhoshi". No fangame of my work made by others will be made! I'm working in progress! Wait patiently, but don't get too serious).
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 02:33:59 am by HumanReploidJP »
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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #141 on: June 25, 2018, 12:21:03 pm »
Hmm... Speaking of which... What about the fangames with crossovers (i.e., Phantasmagoria of Imagine Breaker made by Gore: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Re.Phantasmagoria_of_Imagine_Breaker), would that be considered illegal, unless they are specified with the original authors' permission?

PoIB falls into the doujin gray area, where companies (selectively) choose to ignore usage of their IP. This is a very Japanese thing and I personally do not know how how each company views it - some are more tolerant than others, and some forms of media are tolerated more than others.

Once again, I'm not a legal expert and we took a very unfortunate plunge into the legalities a few years back that I'm sure nobody here at RaNGE wants to repeat.

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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #142 on: November 21, 2018, 10:58:36 am »
What if I made my own bullet hell that has nothing related to Touhou other than the system is similar to it?
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Re: ※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
« Reply #143 on: November 21, 2018, 11:37:36 am »
Then that'd be just a danmaku shmup. People would take it as a rip-off or homage depending on how it's presented.
 

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