Author Topic: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)  (Read 209267 times)

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #720 on: January 23, 2015, 12:29:37 AM »
They really don't understand do they?
The campaign is copyright infringement and the game isn't.

Not true.  The game itself absolutely is copyright infringement.  All Touhou fan games, whether they follow ZUN's guidelines or not, are copyright infringement under the letter of the law, whether Western or Japanese, whether any guidelines are or are not followed.  This is no less true even of something popular like, say, Labyrinth of Touhou than it is or was of Touhou Super Smash Battles.

The guidelines which ZUN has put forth - which are in no way an enforceable legal document - are essentially an informal statement by ZUN of "So long as you abide by the standards listed here, I will choose not to enforce my copyrights on your unauthorized derivative work", nothing more and nothing less.

The first reason being is poor understanding of doujin culture in general by those not heavily involved in it, especially outside of Japan. Doujin doesn't have a perfect equivalent in the West, but I'm sure as most people will tell you, they have heard of it being approximated to "indie", whether in translations, or elsewhere (Indie game expos), especially in any media targeted to a foreign audience. This unsurprisingly leads to a misguided approach of how to develop a Touhou game, since assumptions are made that whatever is okay in Indie culture is probably okay in doujin culture. As it turns out, crowdfunding, a rather recent phenomenon, isn't one of those things. Along with many other examples pointed out by you guys. Oops.

Correlating Western indie development culture to Japanese doujin development culture is a pretty poor correlation, yeah.  I would actually say the closest Western analogues for Japanese doujin culture would be the culture of anime fansubbing groups during the 1990s, or more recently, the culture of ROM hackers, console game fan translators and vintage platform emulation enthusiasts; both the Japanese doujin scene and the Western ROM hacking scene are communities largely unified by creating what are, in all technical legal terms, unauthorized and illegal derivative works.  Both scenes are largely fully aware that what they're doing is illegal, as evidenced by the general hostility of the doujin community to wide-scale distribution (because wide-scale distribution will attract unwanted attention from copyright holders whose IPs have been infringed by fan works).  To a certain extent, this is even true of ZUN's Touhou work itself, since Reimu's design is sort of KiKi KaiKai's Sayo-chan with the serial numbers filed off (and as I recall, Sanae's color scheme is actually the 2P colors for Sayo-chan in one of those games too).  So when ZUN refers to "typical doujin channels" or whatever the exact verbiage is, this is pretty much what he's getting at.

If anything, I'd actually say the classic fansub scene and the modern ROM hacking/translation scene take the doujin mindset to a greater extreme; from memory, charging anything beyond the base cost of the actual physical media for fansubs was absolutely anathema to that culture, and the Western ROM hacking/translation scene is generally extremely hostile to the idea of getting any money involved at all; for a long time, they were uncomfortable even accepting donations on a voluntary basis, though this has relaxed somewhat.  For an example, I quote Gideon Zhi (webmaster of Aeon Genesis, one of the most prolific ROM translation groups):

Quote from: Gideon Zhi
Aeon Genesis is a loose collective of programmers, writers, and Japanese speakers. I spearhead the operation but by no means could I do this without lots and lots of help. As such I have been extremely hesitant to place a donate button on the site in the past. How could any funds added to the account ever be fairly distributed amongst all of the contributors? A few months ago, I hit upon the answer: a rainy day fund.

I'm still hashing out the details, but essentially we will have a private forum (possibly public-viewable) within the Pantheon wherein contributors can request funds. There needs to be a valid reason for a withdrawal from the fund. In my case, for instance, my student loan payments have dropped off in the past several months due in no small part to emergency veterinary bills, but this is a drastic example. The money could help finance a PS2 for Tyria so he could play the PS2 SRW games he's always wanted. It could go towards a pizza for a translator who's just finished a script, or who's motivation is flagging. It could help pay bus fare to help a contributor visit a sick family member. Stuff like that. Wide ranging, but not frivolous.

It's important to note that any donations made to the fund are strictly done as thanks for translations already released. We will not accept money for anything we have not produced, and do not want the pressure of someone claiming that they paid us for work that hasn't shown up yet. Furthermore, we will never withhold any releases due to lack of contributions to the fund. It would be nice to have an emergency pillow to fall back on, but everyone understands that times are tough, and I will not hold my work for ransom in this manner!

The wiki doesn't make things any easier. The document itself is on a page labelled "Touhou Wiki:Copyrights" under the subheading "Copyright status/Terms of Use of the Touhou Project", implying its some sort of legal document when in fact it is quite far from it. It doesn't go into any other further detail either, other than the link to the Wikipedia article on doujin, which doesn't do the culture justice either.

Second is harsh, and sometimes unfair criticism put forth by all sides. First, if a developer wants to move main communication channels elsewhere (Fb/Yt are very common examples; Tw in Japan; could be a separate site altogether for all I care), then why not? Just because it started in one place doesn't mean it must stay there forever. I sure hope you guys aren't like the Wikia which gave me headaches when I wanted to move my TL project elsewhere. Not like I can recall doujin circles congregating on some sort of common forum either.

As a wiki contributor, where good faith is assumed, there's also a lot of bad/poor faith assuming going on and about. You guys seem to demand every inch of proof and harshly point out every misstep from ideal, much like a cross-examiner would at court, Video communiques? Could be a blog post for all I care since both serve the same purpose - a message from the developer, plus room for comments underneath, only difference being inconvenience for the viewer if a transcript isn't provided. Refunds for contributors? Seems you missed the memo posted on other sites, including his more preferred lines of communication.

Doesn't exonerate the developers from fault either. As most people have pointed out, it would've helped to seek advice regarding doujin culture, and not to jump to conclusions too soon. You showed poor faith of ZUN, without considering the possibility that ZUN is simply reluctant to work outside of his comfort zone, i.e. doujin. It's not like he's some inflexible stick either, since he has been accommodating many times in the past (doujin anime even after guideline change being one. Also Fantasy Night). All that said, even in face of criticism, kudos for getting this far.

Haven't read such vitriolic comments about fan projects since the "Vampirish Night" case, and we all know how that turned out.

This makes an excellent point.  As we start to get more people in the Western fandom interested in creating their own derivative works, I think it would be an exceedingly good idea to make sure that a (competently) translated version of ZUN's guidelines are prominently featured on the English Touhou Wiki to be found easily.

I do think there was a lot of bad faith assumed at various points, traceable primarily to the fact that the situation was spiraling out of control extremely quickly on both sides of the Pacific (and because of the time zone gap between the US and Japan, the spiraling pretty much continued unabated 24/7).  FSS acted rashly, we got concerned, erroneous news stories about Wii U releases and so on went up, the Japanese fanbase noticed and got upset, it escalated because of the initial lack of acknowledgement from FSS, we at MotK got upset because we were concerned for the image of the Western fandom as a whole, and so on.  There was never any time to step back and moderate the dialogue.

Reu

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #721 on: January 23, 2015, 12:33:47 AM »
What does your reply have to do with what I stated?
As far as TSA is concerned without Campaign it's just another fanwork.
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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #722 on: January 23, 2015, 12:44:08 AM »
Guys, I literally just woke up an hour ago and spent that entire hour reading all the new comments. There seems to be this Straw Saijee that a lot of you have, but the matter is very very very simple.

I really really really really really REALLY wanted this to be Touhou and Smash. And Like I said 2 videos back, when ZUN asked FSS to make the game with all of our own ability, I was just as excited to do that as everyone was happy to hear that I said it was going to still happen. I was even willing to make the game in the limited venues that it could be allowed and drop the chance of people being able to play it on Wii U as well as the IGG support that would help it become a more quality game for the sake of it being Touhou.

Just what happened to spur this decision to make it "totally not-Touhou"? Did something happen in that copyright claim e-mail on the IGG campaign suddenly go, "no, f*** you guys, you're not allowed to do it, ever"? From what impression I was given from ZUN's e-mail about the project as a whole was he was totally fine with it. So....???

Just like you, from the impression I got from TSA's email to me, I also thought it sounded like he was totally fine. But I'm starting to think he only said that because he didn't think that I would still have the spirit to actually try to make the game even without the IGG. But just like I said in the video, what Fumiyo Oyamada said really wasn't too far off of what I put in red on your post.

As far as between the time TSA emailed FSS and the time that they emailed IGG, we did everything that we could to satisfy TSA's request. And in the end, TSA forbade FSS from using Touhou. It was not my choice.

Reu

  • Ambitious Youkai
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #723 on: January 23, 2015, 12:51:42 AM »
That's not what it sounds like from what your brother said.

What it sounds like from him is that they did a copyright move on the IGG and you're backing off to be "safe".

EDIT:Infact based on what Kuni said TSA did not lie.
1.Yes you are in-fact infringing copyright with crowdfunding with IGG
2.Yes you do NOT have permission for the IGG campaign which is somewhat commercialization, you do not have permission for it but instead has permission to make the game in your own ability meaning without IGG whatsoever.

Unless you're not telling the whole story here I do not understand where exactly does it state a flat out NO.

If anything it just seems like you misunderstood again.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 01:06:24 AM by Reu »
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Tengukami

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #724 on: January 23, 2015, 12:58:53 AM »
Also, for Pete's sake, TSA shutting down the campaign does not mean the *project* can't go ahead. As people have said many times. Unless you've been directly told a contradicting statement to what you told us earlier, you have permission to do the project.

This is a question that kind of answers itself. From the get-go, the objections from the "wall of internet fury", as you put it, had nothing to do with using 2hus in a fan game - we all play plenty of those - but the commercialization of said Touhou fangame through crowdfunding and Wii and/or Steam. Given the choice between a) keeping the 2hus but switching to making it donationware or b) dropping the 2hus and going with commercialization, we can see what choice was made.

Not that I find fault with someone for wanting to make money making games, but a great number of mistakes were made that don't need to be re-hashed here. Needless to say things could have gone a lot better.

Just like you, from the impression I got from TSA's email to me, I also thought it sounded like he was totally fine. But I'm starting to think he only said that because he didn't think that I would still have the spirit to actually try to make the game even without the IGG. But just like I said in the video, what Fumiyo Oyamada said really wasn't too far off of what I put in red on your post.

As far as between the time TSA emailed FSS and the time that they emailed IGG, we did everything that we could to satisfy TSA's request. And in the end, TSA forbade FSS from using Touhou. It was not my choice.

I know you said before that "e-mail privacy" concerns preclude you from showing proof that this is how it went down, but can you understand that if people are skeptical, it's because we just have your word for it? I mean especially considering the plethora of Touhou fangames out there, including ones physically sold at cons and the like (as NForza offered to do), it seems pretty exceptional that TSA would tell you that they would forbid this project even if you completely abided the guidelines. Unless I missed it (and my apologies if proof was already provided somewhere, and please link me up if it was), but this is a pretty serious charge and all we got is your say-so.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #725 on: January 23, 2015, 01:08:56 AM »
What does your reply have to do with what I stated?
As far as TSA is concerned without Campaign it's just another fanwork.

You stated that the game isn't copyright infringement, which is untrue.  All Touhou fan games infringe on ZUN's copyrights.  He just chooses to selectively enforce those copyrights, and has issued a set of general guidelines for how he determines whether or not to enforce them.  None of this changes the fact that ZUN has the legal right to shut down any Touhou fan game he does not like, if he wanted to.

Reu

  • Ambitious Youkai
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #726 on: January 23, 2015, 01:12:20 AM »
You stated that the game isn't copyright infringement, which is untrue.  All Touhou fan games infringe on ZUN's copyrights.  He just chooses to selectively enforce those copyrights, and has issued a set of general guidelines for how he determines whether or not to enforce them.  None of this changes the fact that ZUN has the legal right to shut down any Touhou fan game he does not like, if he wanted to.

I also never stated that he didn't have the right to.
All I stated is that TSA has said nothing to oppose the project itself, pick out my wording if you like but that's beside the point I was making.
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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #727 on: January 23, 2015, 01:19:21 AM »
Like I said I just woke up, I don't know what he's been telling you. I would still make this Touhou if I could, but I can't. And that is not up to me.
---

Edit---
My god, everyone! Screw the money, I don't care about any of it!

The original point of an IGG was to get a money that could be used to hire animators. There are dozens of games which I want to make in my life and preferable with good detail too, but I can't live taking several years to develop 1 project at a time: I've learned from first hand experience that if you take too long to make a game, it will become outdated before you finish it. 

-- And just so we are clear: NO we are not going to do another campaign.

Why is it that your Straw Saijee's only reason for saying that this can now get on Steam and Wii U is to make money? As I've said, I've been in good touch with the FSS FB and YT. For a long time I had been saying in the comments that there was no plan for a Steam, and that Wii U was only a possibility in that I am a Wii U dev and thus have the technological ability to put games on the Wii U.

BUT EVER SINCE THIS PROJECT GOT ON ALL KINDS OF NEWS ARTICLES, EVERYONE HAS BEEN ASKING ME TO MAKE THIS AVAILABLE FOR WII U AND STEAM.

This is what people have said that they want, and all I want to do is do everything in my power to present people the game in the way which they would most prefer.

Further more, You guys don't seem to understand, one of my dreams was just shattered, FSS is no longer allowed to use TSA characters, at all. I can't make a Touhou game ever again. I'm not about to lose my other dream of being  able to make and balance my own fighting game on a Nintendo console.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 01:21:38 AM by Saijee »

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #728 on: January 23, 2015, 01:37:27 AM »
Further more, You guys don't seem to understand, one of my dreams was just shattered, FSS is no longer allowed to use TSA characters, at all. I can't make a Touhou game ever again. I'm not about to lose my other dream of being  able to make and balance my own fighting game on a Nintendo console.

And again, that sucks if it's true, but it's also highly exceptional to how TSA has been towards a whole slew of Touhou fangame-makers that they would make such a sweeping ban on a game, even if it abides the guidelines. Considering how exceptional it is, I don't think it's unreasonable to want to see that in black-and-white.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #729 on: January 23, 2015, 01:49:35 AM »
And again, that sucks if it's true, but it's also highly exceptional to how TSA has been towards a whole slew of Touhou fangame-makers that they would make such a sweeping ban on a game, even if it abides the guidelines. Considering how exceptional it is, I don't think it's unreasonable to want to see that in black-and-white.

pretty much this. I still think they are ok with your game. They just did that to stop the IGG page from being up. I don't think there are against the game. You should try to get in touch one last time to clarify it.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #730 on: January 23, 2015, 01:52:06 AM »
FSS is no longer allowed to use TSA characters, at all. I can't make a Touhou game ever again.
As previously mentioned several times, it might be a good idea to pm or forward the email privately to one of the members here to do a solid reading of the email, because I don't quite trust FSS to be able to do that competently, given everything that has happened thus far.

People here are willing to help, and have offered help many times. Whether you take that offer or not, well...

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #731 on: January 23, 2015, 01:54:18 AM »
As previously mentioned several times, it might be a good idea to pm or forward the email privately to one of the members here to do a solid reading of the email, because I don't quite trust FSS to be able to do that competently, given everything that has happened thus far.

People here are willing to help, and have offered help many times. Whether you take that offer or not, well...

It seems so odd that TSA would ban a company to use their characters fully. just seems so Anti ZUN and doujin...

Reu

  • Ambitious Youkai
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #732 on: January 23, 2015, 01:55:57 AM »
EDIT:Infact based on what Kuni said TSA did not lie nor say the game cannot be made.
1.Yes you are in-fact infringing copyright with crowdfunding with IGG
2.Yes you do NOT have permission for the IGG campaign which is somewhat commercialization, you do not have permission for it but instead has permission to make the game in your own ability meaning without IGG whatsoever.

Unless you're not telling the whole story here I do not understand where exactly does it state a flat out NO.

If anything it just seems like you misunderstood again.

Which goes back to my EDIT from earlier
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Alcoraiden

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #733 on: January 23, 2015, 02:01:19 AM »
Saijee, *please*, please email the raw Japanese to someone who will make sure you read it right. Don't you want your dream to work out if it at all possibly can? We're here to help you. Wouldn't it be kickass if this was a misunderstanding and you could still do the Touhou thing?

Even the folks who were pissed earlier have backed off at this point, it seems. We're all now confused, and it seems like ZUN wouldn't pull this. Can you let us look at it? Please?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 02:05:24 AM by Alcoraiden »

Eiburine

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #734 on: January 23, 2015, 02:16:47 AM »
Wait something's weird here :O
If making a Touhou game was your dream, then why choose making a game on steam and wiiu because people want it, over making a Touhou game because you want it? :O That kinda seems like the opposite of what doujin, or even indie developers believe in.

When this all clears up, I hope you will continue making a Touhou game and achieving your dreams, instead of trying to appease the masses, whoever they are. :3

N-Forza

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #735 on: January 23, 2015, 02:24:14 AM »
I also highly doubt that anyone of TSA would outright ban the use of Touhou characters provided the guidelines are followed. There must be some misunderstanding.

And as far as misunderstandings so, I should I take another look at the current translation of the guidelines and see if they could stand clarification? I though the current (non-machine translated) ones did the job just fine but maybe I'm too used to doujin culture and understood implications that others wouldn't see.

Kaze_Senshi

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #736 on: January 23, 2015, 03:01:30 AM »
I also don't think that you are forbidden to create a Touhou game if you follow the guidelines. Anyway what if  you just drop the "FSS" name and start a new "Doujin Circle" to continue this project, like a new milestone for the TSSB?
My youtube channel with my creations: https://www.youtube.com/user/KazeSenshi2929
( ゆっくりしていってね)>

Savory

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #737 on: January 23, 2015, 03:19:07 AM »
Saijee, do you really not understand that it was the IndieGogo campaign that got you into this mess? In no way will TSA forbid you from making a Touhou doujin just as long as you comply to their rules and stop acting self-entitled!

Paz legalces

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #738 on: January 23, 2015, 03:25:04 AM »
10 minutes ago on facebook, Saijee once again refusing to listen to anyone and spin his own narrative as the victim again

At this point, I don't honestly think it is a case of "too busy to reply here" anymore but that any arguments against him is being ignored completely on purpose now

Uruwi

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #739 on: January 23, 2015, 03:27:26 AM »
10 minutes ago on facebook, Saijee once again refusing to listen to anyone and spin his own narrative as the victim again

At this point, I don't honestly think it is a case of "too busy to reply here" anymore but that any arguments against him is being ignored completely on purpose now
Yep, FSS doesn't deserve the right to live, much less use ZUN's characters.
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EoSD [NNNE] PCB [EE--N-] IN [NEEE + Ex Border] PoFV [Mystia N, Mystia E no charge] MoF [EN--H- + Ex Marisa B] SA [N-----] UFO [----EN] TD [NENE] DDC [EE-EHE + Ex Marisa B & Sakuya A] LoLK [PD --N- Legacy ---N] EE [N- + Ex Yabusame] EMS [N-- + Ex Yabusame] RMI [NHN + Ex YaoSuku]
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Savory

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #740 on: January 23, 2015, 03:27:57 AM »
Okay, to hell with this. Saijee doesn't even deserve to make this game. Leave it to someone who isn't an idiot.

Kilgamayan

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #741 on: January 23, 2015, 03:34:55 AM »
Okay, heated discussion of doujin culture and the legality of fangames and approaches thereto is one thing, but direct namecalling will not be tolerated here. Please refrain from baseless personal attacks on FSS and/or any of its members.
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
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Uruwi

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #742 on: January 23, 2015, 03:37:31 AM »
Okay, to hell with this. Saijee doesn't even deserve to make this game. Leave it to someone who isn't an idiot.
I beat you by a wide margin in my previous post.
Spoiler:
Leave personal attacks to someone who can read.
foo = foldl $ flip ($)
Highest difficulty 1CCed for each game, by shot type in the original order. (-: never 1CCed on any difficulty, or never used; E: easy, N: normal, H: hard, L / U: lunatic / unreal.)
EoSD [NNNE] PCB [EE--N-] IN [NEEE + Ex Border] PoFV [Mystia N, Mystia E no charge] MoF [EN--H- + Ex Marisa B] SA [N-----] UFO [----EN] TD [NENE] DDC [EE-EHE + Ex Marisa B & Sakuya A] LoLK [PD --N- Legacy ---N] EE [N- + Ex Yabusame] EMS [N-- + Ex Yabusame] RMI [NHN + Ex YaoSuku]
Avelantis (demo) Easy YuukiB 426,077,200

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #743 on: January 23, 2015, 03:42:13 AM »
Now this thread is turning degenerative. People is starting to make it personal just becase FFS is no longer willing to do it. Sure, hand the project, the responsability, the work, the stress and all that stuff that comes along making a doujin game to someone else because FFS will not do it. You say it in the most casual manner, I am sorry but it kind of annoys me a lot.

I am not defending FFS here. They screwed big time and they had coming what they didnt got ready for, however it is not our place to demand them to do what they either cant or want to do. If they trully intend to do a touhou smash, they?ll end up using the means provided... if they dont, they will simply move on and so should we. After the TSA and IGG issue got sorted out (here at least) attention shifted to "please please with cherry on top, do make it touhou-based!" but it aint gonna happen because FSS no longers wants to go trough the whole mess... and honestly, with this kind of backlash from all ends, it is not surprising why they dont.

Yes, I am making a hell lot of assumptions here... but at this point, what gives? I mean, look at yourselves, Fluffy, Savory.

Aaaaand I got ninja?d

Savory

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #744 on: January 23, 2015, 03:44:53 AM »
I'm not attacking him. But at this point I've grown tired of his antics. He is clearly missing the point of why things went the direction they did but insists on blaming Team Shanghai Alice.

I'm upset because he isn't admitting to his fault but would rather throw others under the bus before even considering it

Reu

  • Ambitious Youkai
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #745 on: January 23, 2015, 03:46:06 AM »
I don't know about the rest but it being Touhou related isn't the reason why I'm getting upset.
He's throwing ZUN under the bus for his constant misunderstandings and attempting to drag a completely different project down with him, THAT is something I do not like.

And even now when he claims to read our posts he ignores constant advice and questions.
Sometimes Streams at Hitbox.tv/Reu

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #746 on: January 23, 2015, 03:49:03 AM »
10 minutes ago on facebook, Saijee once again refusing to listen to anyone and spin his own narrative as the victim again

At this point, I don't honestly think it is a case of "too busy to reply here" anymore but that any arguments against him is being ignored completely on purpose now
Uhh, Paz???

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #747 on: January 23, 2015, 03:52:30 AM »
Wow. So..... this is just hurting my head.

Saijee, if by some unexpected chance you happen to read this thread again, I think it's time you quit the we're-the-victims-here-and-we-did-nothing-wrong PR nonsense. Others have offered you help and, hell, are still offering to help. Your way has not worked out very well. At all. Maybe it's time to try something new, accept your responsibilities as a developer, show some honesty and humility, and accept the help you're being given.

Pardon my language. But you screwed up. And are still doing so. At this rate this game will just disintegrate (Touhou or not) while you continue to tell yourself 'it's all ZUN's fault' when countless explanations and ways of fixing this have been offered to you. If you continue to reject them all and hide behind excuses and half-hearted apologies while taking passive-aggressive stabs at ZUN and doujin culture, it's your choice, but the outcome of that seems clear now.

Please reconsider the way you're going about this. You have the potential to make a really great game and you're throwing it away out of fear of...... what? Tarnishing FSS's image? Dealing with difficult issues? ....Fear of success? I honestly don't know at this point.

Again, please reconsider the way you're handling this.....

Alcoraiden

  • Do not go gentle into that good night
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #748 on: January 23, 2015, 04:03:06 AM »
Fluffy, Savory, ad hominem doesn't help anyone. Take that shit elsewhere. Offline.

Paz legalces

  • Namusan
  • Howdy, I am Potato
    • Touhou Project FB
Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #749 on: January 23, 2015, 04:03:57 AM »
I am not exactly sure what you are trying to reference with that screenshot there Saijee but you will PLEASE read the forum carefully now that you are here; especially regarding the bits regarding the copyright strike and how the point of that strike is completely misunderstood and misrepresented (intentionally or not)
Right now you are not just assuming things in the worst way possible; but you completely misrepresent things, take it out of context then run around playing the victim and says how "Zun have struck you down with copyrights so we can't do this anymore". That is completely assumption base and can even be put as libel against Zun