Author Topic: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)  (Read 209135 times)

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #330 on: January 18, 2015, 05:29:26 AM »
Well isn't there a big movment to get doujin games on larger digital formats? (IE PlayDoijin!) So isn't those site just part of the changes for that?

Once again, I believe the important part regarding that is ZUN's involvement and therefore, permission.

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #331 on: January 18, 2015, 05:35:29 AM »
I have a curiosity. Would I be able to, hypothetically, sell a doujin game I make on my personal website? Or is online commercialization strictly forbidden?

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #332 on: January 18, 2015, 05:38:26 AM »
I have a curiosity. Would I be able to, hypothetically, sell a doujin game I make on my personal website? Or is online commercialization strictly forbidden?

The rules said that online selling of doujin game are forbidden, BUT that is changing for and has for a while now. For overseas it might be best to just wait till that guidelines change so no complication happen. So kinda...
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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #333 on: January 18, 2015, 05:41:27 AM »
I remember seeing Sky Arena in a US Kinokuniya next to the official games. Wonder how that fits into the guildelines lol

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #334 on: January 18, 2015, 05:41:49 AM »
I have a curiosity. Would I be able to, hypothetically, sell a doujin game I make on my personal website? Or is online commercialization strictly forbidden?
This is the one thing that we might need expansion on in the future. Selling it is the key point, since there currently isn't much consideration for digital sales that aren't intended for mass distribution. Most circles just set up shop during events and use doujin shops to proxy sales afterwards, so you can imagine it isn't really a big problem in Japan. Frontier Aja is the only circle I can think of off the top of my head with such a model. In any case, for the time being assume no.

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #335 on: January 18, 2015, 05:45:31 AM »
The rules said that online selling of doujin game are forbidden, BUT that is changing for and has for a while now. For overseas it might be best to just wait till that guidelines change so no complication happen. So kinda...
Fortunately, I am not even close to done with said game and it still uses a lot of copyrighted assets so it will be a while anyway, XD I would actually aim to sell it at events like TouhouCon before anything else anyway.

This is the one thing that we might need expansion on in the future. Selling it is the key point, since there currently isn't much consideration for digital sales that aren't intended for mass distribution. Most circles just set up shop during events and use doujin shops to proxy sales afterwards, so you can imagine it isn't really a big problem in Japan. Frontier Aja is the only circle I can think of off the top of my head with such a model. In any case, for the time being assume no.
That was going to be my assumption, but it's always been something I've not been sure of.

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #336 on: January 18, 2015, 05:51:11 AM »
If I remember correctly, Touhou Puppet Dance Performance 「 東方幻想人形演武」, is sold on melonbooks. Not sure if this info contributes to the convo at all though...

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #337 on: January 18, 2015, 06:48:34 AM »
Some of my subscribers have told me things have been getting messy back here. Now I've just gotten here. And I have not read ANYTHING at all, so I don't know anything that's going on. But I will say that I will withhold NO INFORMATION! I am going to explain EVERYTHING to you. But if there is one thing I've learned over the past few days, it's that I can communicate my point most effectively in the medium which I am most comfortable with.

And that is why the entire FSS team has been isolated together all day working on one video that explains things as clearly as possible. I only ask that you wait till it is done, once it is done, we will be able return to our normal position.

Just, please wait. We have been putting a lot of effort into making this video CRYSTAL CLEAR! I promise you that we respect ZUN's wishes, and that everything about TSSB is going to be OK.

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #338 on: January 18, 2015, 06:55:35 AM »
Seeing through all of this, the biggest thing that I am see time over and over is the lack of recognizable infrastructure to
  • Get the official works without being torn a new one in ones wallet
  • Get desired works from various doujin circle without being torn a new one in one's wallet.
  • Get desired works from various doujin circle without tearing one's eyes in vain search.
  • Have an established network of places in the US (or around x country) to allow distribution of western doujin works without getting torn a new one by every direction
  • Enumerate appropriate attribution and if needed/possible/allowed .. cash
  • (insert some other thing i haven't thought of)

What one can learn out of this is a lot of communication needs to be handed down 'worldwide', but at the same time there should be some sort of easier accessibility. With this happening once (and maybe multiple times before I guess from what I'm seeing), it feels like the solution keeps coming up that just doesn't exist elsewhere in the world (and definitely not in the US); a doujin store or doujin sale network (and specifically Touhou Project related works).

I wonder if there is a way to somehow transplant the system that is accepted in Japan and plant it here in the States (or other countries).

The best description/solution I can think of in my mind is far too similar to church planting (as theology and church work was my familiarity and background-- sorry about injecting it this way ): An existing church / church organization (a parent church) provides leadership, resources, etc. to start a new child church-- which I usually done with one congregation or multiple -- in cooperation with the existing infrastructure and the congregation receiving the church. Resources and people are often pooled by both sides by the parent church as well as the child one to create the new church that is in 'need' of having one. And of course, the culture of the existing church is also planted (which from there can evolve to the local needs but still try to keep consistency such as the tenets professed and passed)

So ... much like that ... there is a need for someway to distribute the official games,  distribute doujin works created from Japan, AND distribute Touhou Doujin works created in the west. Stuff done there (and can be sold legally in the states). Distribute western Touhou doujin works in a way that does follow guidelines. There is at least some infrastructure: a person knows x staffer at a convention, another person knows y-person at a comic book shop, z-resource that they can utilize for other likeminded --- all completely ad-hoc (and from what I see, is going to remain ad-hoc). If there is a number of people in Japan (not necessarily ZUN but people experienced and willing) and a number of us that can sit down and go "okay, let's hash out a solution to this problem somehow" and transplant the system that could be workable here that could at least utilize the existing resources here without violating the guidelines, and at least carrying the basic doujin culture desired by both sides.

But I dunno. I am not too sadly familiar to the intricacies, politics, or fallacies of the doujin community so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.  I don't make anything (except horrible roleplay on tumblr). I just enjoy the Touhou works, enjoy the games ZUN created, enjoy the story ZUN created, and music ZUN created and want to share it -- and maybe it's just sometimes I wish I could point to someone "hey check this out, and hey here's where you can buy the game(s) for [Proper price of which ZUN sells his games] instead of [OH DEAR GOD WHY IS IT THIS MUCH?] or [I CAN'T FIND IT]" ... but I hope I contributed something useful to someone.

Well at least ... here could even start here by as simple as hashing out the guidelines as not just "okay what are they" (everyone can copy/paste a set of rules) but then "examples of this is okay/not okay" and the spirit/"the why?" of the guidelines "Don't want to confuse derivative works. Ensure Attribution and Original Author (ZUN) is prominent... blah blah whatever vision/mission." That information yonjin and monhan shared is examples of deeper information. After translation, it makes hella sense and communicates it proper.

To the Westerner who has otherwise never been exposed to the doujin community ... it just doesn't feel like it's just as simple as throwing out the guidelines; there has to be some cultural and example context attached with them so it can be understood why they are what they are. Even if a person going through them won't necessarily make anything-- it would be a good interesting read in itself on why it is what it is and makes it take off in Japan ... the understanding and concept of doujin may well be integral in communicating Touhou as well. I guess.

Western culture may not necessarily have that doujin culture built in ... but eh, gotta start somewhere I guess.

Eh. Just my thought -- please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong haha.
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« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 07:32:56 AM by Daya »

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #339 on: January 18, 2015, 07:20:24 AM »
Quote from: Saijee
I've just gotten here. And I have not read ANYTHING at all, so I don't know anything that's going on.
You really should. Like, before doing anything else.

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #340 on: January 18, 2015, 09:02:52 AM »
If you want to talk about the current state of Touhou-related stuff's distribution, here's what little I know:

1. I believe all of ZUN's statements on copyright issues have been sloppily written, with significant gray zones and often needlessly convoluted structures. However the current English translation of the 2011 guideline has added to the Western fandom's confusion due to a translation choice. When the word 企業 "enterprise; company" appears in an attributive clause, the translator always rendered it as "commercial" rather than a more accurate word such as "corporate". The definition of what's "commercial" can be extremely fuzzy, but whether a group is a corporation is a clear delineation. (If ZUN & co. truly want to be rigorous, they should have used the word 法人 "legal person", and account for cases such as when a registered not-for-profit organization wants to use Touhou materials. But like I said, sloppy writing.)

It took me many rereads to figure out what the guideline's actually saying, but:

The original intent of the guideline that's been lost in the translation (not that it's been apparent to begin with), is to draw a line between informal groups and companies. Doujin groups are free to create fan works without notifying Shanghai Alice, but they also must stay within boundaries of the doujin rules. Companies are not bound by the rules, but must always negotiate with Shanghai Alice to obtain their permission.

This is why Touhou figures can be distributed to, say, a toy store in Hong Kong, or why Touhou fan music can be heard in karaoke and arcade rhythm games around Japan. When companies are involved, their individually negotiated conditions apply, rather than the rules, which are intended for non-corporate groups only.

I don't know whether companies need to pay ZUN any license fee or royalty for these merchandises, but they obviously must pay something to the authors of fanart or fan music they use. (Those laptops with Touhou stickers and wallpapers still look rather lucrative for the company.)

Also: in reality, it can be argued the way ZUN puts a leash on the over-exploitation and exposure of Touhou is primarily through those company conditions, not the doujin rules. After all, how much marketing budget does a doujin circle have, compared to the media giant Kadokawa?

2. It seems Kinokuniya does have a permission to sell official Touhou games and fan works overseas. I've heard about agents who negotiate doujinshi deals for them.

3. It goes without saying, you can sell digital downloads through your own homepage or doujin-specialty stores: Toranoana, Melonbooks, DLSite, etc. Very recently, the Japanese side of Playism - the only digital portal with an official Touhou game so far - has started selling the action RPG Touhou Koukishin. On twitter, they call it an experiment.

Indeed, based on this principle, donationware should be allowed; international game download portals like Steam are definitely not. N-Forza has pointed out many fan musicians selling Touhou remixes on Bandcamp. I consider this a gray zone, an outside case not imagined by the 2011 guideline.

4. The 2011 guideline specifically forbid fan creators from distributing Touhou apps in Android Market or iOS Store. In a 2013 interview, he clarified that you can make smartphone games, but cannot profit from it (free apps, no F2P, no ads).

At present, there are a number of paid Touhou apps that claim to have Shanghai Alice's permission, and presumably fall under the corporate merchandise category. I think I've seen screenshots of ad-supported Touhou fan games on Android...

5. People on the internet would sometimes post sightings of Touhou character ripoffs on everyday stuff sold in convenient stores. Even ZUN had tweeted about them. This kind of thing is unavoidable.

6. My takeaway is, under the current guideline, it is theoretically possible to set up a download portal for Touhou fan works for foreign markets, since it wouldn't be functionally different from the English version of DLSite. If necessary, negotiating a Shanghai Alice permission similar to DLSite should be infinitely easier than becoming an official publisher of Touhou games like Playism did.

Whether that theoretical case is financially viable is another matter. Oh and the whole point of the "no foreigners" rule is to keep all legal issues within Japan, and aovid the entanglement of foreign copyright laws, so the website must be incorporated in Japan lol.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 10:32:51 AM by cuc »
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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #341 on: January 18, 2015, 10:26:11 AM »
Now I've just gotten here. And I have not read ANYTHING at all, so I don't know anything that's going on.
Oh.

Okay.

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #342 on: January 18, 2015, 11:01:32 AM »
But if there is one thing I've learned over the past few days, it's that I can communicate my point most effectively in the medium which I am most comfortable with.

And that is why the entire FSS team has been isolated together all day working on one video that explains things as clearly as possible. I only ask that you wait till it is done, once it is done, we will be able return to our normal position.

Just, please wait. We have been putting a lot of effort into making this video CRYSTAL CLEAR! I promise you that we respect ZUN's wishes, and that everything about TSSB is going to be OK.
That won't work and I will reject that personally. I want a proper reply to my own Personal Message, Saijee. A video is 1-sided static message and no use to me.





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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #343 on: January 18, 2015, 11:27:20 AM »
Some of my subscribers have told me things have been getting messy back here. Now I've just gotten here. And I have not read ANYTHING at all, so I don't know anything that's going on.

You mean despite the fact that I linked you directly to the full translation of Yonjin's statements on how your project violates ZUN's guidelines for fanworks and in what ways you could still make things right, with the specific caveat that this is something you absolutely need to read? Something that would take 5 minutes to read, tops, so you would know precisely what's going on?

I really don't think you're doing yourself any favors here.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 11:40:47 AM by Tengukami »

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #344 on: January 18, 2015, 11:45:10 AM »
Helepolis, give me a break-

I have been way too busy between establishing communication with shanghai alice, making the demo, and this video.

If you won't accept this video's explanation, then that is not really my problem.

At any rate, the entire team spent a whole 19 hours straight working on this video without sleep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kgP_2oQ9Vs

Tengukami, I have not read it yet, I'm not lazy or whatever you think, I have legitimately been very very very busy all day today, and now I'm just super tired. So good night.

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #345 on: January 18, 2015, 12:06:56 PM »
No one called you lazy, but I do think you're painting yourself into a corner by digging in your heels over this.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 12:36:28 PM by Tengukami »

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #346 on: January 18, 2015, 12:19:42 PM »
So, here are the importants parts of the video:

● They got Shangai Alice's autorisation to produce the game.

● The crowdfunding will be stopped and backers will get their money back.

● No WiiU or Steam release.

Everything "ended" well, it seems.

Drake

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #347 on: January 18, 2015, 12:38:00 PM »
One instantly poor decision was to trust a Google translated version of the guidelines. I am not sure how you guys would think this would pass as a legitimate source, rather than asking if there was a better translation, which you clearly have found by now. In particular, the lines you've quoted in the video have absolutely nothing to do with your situation.

Additionally, as has been stated many times, it makes zero sense to assume that a non-reply is an "okay", even in the sense that "it isn't bad enough to warrant a reply". As far as I can tell, you've never given a proper reason as to why you went ahead with the campaign rather than waiting; it isn't as though you were under any sort of time limit and had to rush it through, either.

Claiming that a Wii U version was "likely" is still misinformation. This is almost definitely one of the main reasons people misinterpreted the article to mean the game was intended for Wii U. I assume you've realized this but I want to make sure.

You claim that you had no idea what the problems were after fixing the Wii U statement, but people have been laying everything out for you since the debacle began, and instead of listening to people you've only been posting various statements that have only made your situation worse. I don't know how you can possibly say you didn't know what you were doing wrong.

That being said, it's good that Oyamada-san has contacted you and basically just told you what everyone else already have. However, why on earth would you take his statements like you did and make even more assumptions about what he means. There is a big difference between "making the game" and "publishing the game on XYZ platforms"; Steam for one being very clearly outside what's allowed. Additionally, the Wii U eShop would be considered commercial, as well as being closely related to the 360, Android, and Apple markets, which have restrictions. It's good that Oyamada made this clear.

Also, your dad is not a reasonable translation source and has zero context or experience with doujin culture. Why would you not ask the community about any of this stuff. Concluding that you don't need to ask for many more specifics despite obviously just assuming certain details blows my mind.

tl;dr As I've told you in my PM, this whole deal would probably 1) not have happened if you had made connections with the community; we have people who can translate, people who understand doujin culture, people who could have helped with pretty much every step here; and 2) would have been greatly simplified and alleviated if you were more open about all the actions you were considering taking and listening to advice, since basically this was a trainwreck of incredibly poor decisions.



Sorry for the skepticism, but I would really like to see the emails in their original forms, both for the actual words written and for confirmation that Oyamada is truly who's contacted you.

Next, the japanese watching would like a transcript of the video, and I assume you have a script. Obviously they can't understand what you're saying in the video, and even if you can't translate it yourselves, any transcript right now is better than nothing. EDIT: Thanks.

Additionally, I would contact indiegogo and explain the situation to see if they truly can't do anything about refunds; while some people might trust you with manual reimbursement, others likely do not, and would ideally rather you not have to handle the money after it comes into your possession.

All criticism aside, it's great that you've been able to release a demo and that the project can continue.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 10:30:50 AM by Drake »

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #348 on: January 18, 2015, 12:40:03 PM »
At any rate, the entire team spent a whole 19 hours straight working on this video without sleep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kgP_2oQ9Vs
This sounds like good news, Saijee. Thank you for following through with your promise to respect ZUN's decision.

I also commented on YouTube, but do you have a transcript of what was said? Some Japanese fans, understanding little of what was said, are already starting to assume the worst. If not, I will type out the important parts.
English subtitles for Touhou derivative works from Nico, translated and reprinted on YouTube with the creators' permission. The admin is a native JP/EN speaker.
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Tengukami

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #349 on: January 18, 2015, 12:43:39 PM »
It'd be nice to see evidence of said approval (none was provided in the video as far as I could tell), and while refunds and not going with Wii or Steam is a good start, what is the actual distribution model going to entail? Maybe I missed these things.
 
Also seconding Drake that a clear, concise statement with links/evidence of approval and steps taken to make things right, instead of a 15-minute video, would probably be the way to go here.

e: I is bad at grammer.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 04:56:54 PM by Tengukami »

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #350 on: January 18, 2015, 12:57:28 PM »
I'll go by the words of Tengu, Tohosubs and Drake based on their video view, that there has been some communication with Team Shanghai Alice. Though I am remaining unconvinced for my own personal reasons and agreeing with Drake that proof needs to be shown.

One of the main concerns personally I am having is that all this is making it look as if your "subscribers" on youtube/facebook are more important than people over at MotK. It is giving me the heavy impression that w/e we say here is not concerning you. Especially when you popped up in saying: "I haven't read anything, my subscribers told me there is some stuff going on here". That is a very poor post to make, let alone the mind set and logically I am not going to give you a break for this. Whether that is intentional or not, that is up to you to explain. MotK is not your private proxy for publishing your game. Many people have spend effort on showing you directions and translating things and like Drake said, it is just mind blowing seeing all this.

I'm still awaiting my reply on my PM as that one is related to our Forum partially as well. You can skip the questions #5 and #6, but I request the forum part to be clarified (first four) 

Edit:
Just to clarify that there is no personal hate from me towards you as individual, nor your game nor your circle. Though I don't need to lie that I have been passing the border of disappointment multiple times based on the responses. And the reasons have been stated. I am sure eventually we can all lift a nice cup of beer (or water for the minors among us) once everything has been taken care of.

--Helepolis
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 01:20:44 PM by Helepolis »

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #351 on: January 18, 2015, 01:20:43 PM »
So near as I could tell through all the voice modulating (sorry to be this person, but those added effects made it really difficult for me to understand what was being said) is that people who want to maintain their perks can refuse the refund. I'm mildly surprised this is allowable by ZUN's guidelines: whatever amount of refund is refused by the original donator still amounts to crowdfunding in the end.
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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #352 on: January 18, 2015, 01:43:51 PM »
If you won't accept this video's explanation, then that is not really my problem.

At any rate, the entire team spent a whole 19 hours straight working on this video without sleep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kgP_2oQ9Vs
だめだコイツ...

Yes, because 19 hours on a 15 minute video is a better use of one's time, as opposed to plain text, which makes no sense, because they're basically reading off a script anyways.
And the huge emphasis on how ZUN allowed the development of the game was weird, because it was never a point of contention.
But of course, the actual problematic points have been talked to death over here by various people (NForza, Hele, Yonjin, et al.) and fallen on deaf ears.

FSS is more likely to respond on YouTube and Facebook about concerns brought up here, which I find odd. They can't even get Yonjin's name right.
Maybe it's because there's less fanboying around here.
I'm beginning to think that MotK is largely an afterthought, because members here (as opposed to those on Facebook or YouTube) are more critical, less likely to bootlick, and more likely to present hard facts, because we care about the community as a whole.

But that's just one man's opinion.

As an aside:
The large amount of creative freedom allowed by ZUN with the Touhou intellectual property has kinda diluted the amount of respect people give to ZUN's copyrights.
It is unfortunate that some people (YouTube comments are cancer) believe the Touhou franchise to be in the public domain.

*Edit:
So near as I could tell through all the voice modulating (sorry to be this person, but those added effects made it really difficult for me to understand what was being said) is that people who want to maintain their perks can refuse the refund. I'm mildly surprised this is allowable by ZUN's guidelines: whatever amount of refund is refused by the original donator still amounts to crowdfunding in the end.
I would say that they didn't really understand the point made by Shanghai Alice, and is just superficially complying by taking the IGG page down.
On the other hand, if they still allow for monetary contributions, but contributors don't get anything out of it, i.e. actual donations, they wouldn't be running foul of guidelines.

I'm also a bit distressed about how fast you guys are trying to punch through everything, though. It's a good sign to be proactive, but it really looks like you're not waiting for a result on one situation before going through with the next situation even though the second situation relies on the result from the first.
They do appear to be racing against time, don't they?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 01:59:42 PM by akj »

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #353 on: January 18, 2015, 01:55:12 PM »
Just a suggestion, have you guys considered letting someone else in to help with parts you can't do yourself? Pretty sure there's nothing against getting some help by adding to your circle.

Kilga does bring up a good point about keeping some of the donations. Although, a question I have is would being giving money through paypal if they want to pitch in, is that the same of indiegogo in this case? Think it is, not sure.

I'm also a bit distressed about how fast you guys are trying to punch through everything, though. It's a good sign to be proactive, but it really looks like you're not waiting for a result on one situation before going through with the next situation even though the second situation relies on the result from the first.

Also, there's no harm having someone be dedicated as a spokesperson. Pretty sure that's what ZUN does.

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #354 on: January 18, 2015, 02:00:49 PM »
You mean to say that it took so long to make that video? Well your could have shortened the time spent on it but not using the weird voice effects (agreed that they are hard to understand) and using your characters and animated them. A simple video of you guys in real life would have taken much less time, also you say you were approved but I really need evidence on that. And what was that about forbidden on hiring animators? There has been no such thing said if i recall.
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Firestorm29

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #355 on: January 18, 2015, 02:15:52 PM »
And what was that about forbidden on hiring animators? There has been no such thing said if i recall.
Probably they were going to hire professional help, and hot told no to avoid something like when one of the anine had pto voice actors.

N-Forza

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #356 on: January 18, 2015, 02:43:26 PM »
I strongly suggest you find the time to read this thread, because for as strict as we're being, I still want to see this happen and will gladly help if needed/wanted.

I trust that you were in contact with someone affiliated with ZUN, but I'm not sure why you would even need their approval for making the game if you were going to follow the guidelines to begin with though.

Firestorm: Except Maikaze hired pro voice actors anyway. They just make it clear that theirs was a derivative work and only sold it through the appropriate channels. FSS could possibly do the same thing even, provided they paid out of their own pocket with no outside funding.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 02:45:57 PM by N-Forza »

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #357 on: January 18, 2015, 02:49:37 PM »
i just watched the video. I think that this is the best thing you can do. I'll probably keep my donation in the game.

I don't think they are ignoring anyone here. I think they all just passed out and wanted to prioritize what shanhai alice was saying first then here. It seems the video addresses all the problems we had.

I don't see why you can't still get animators who vollenteer to help. I know that is harder to find in america, but maybe some japanese people are willing to help, after you present them with this video and they have forgiven this misunderstanding. I really don't think what it seems some japanese people think, that you guys were trying to abusing the touhou name and whatnot.

As for selling this game, right now I THINK you are able to see the game through paypal on your own site. I don't think that is illegal. Plus, I think you can still take donations directly to your site for people who want to help. I would clarify with shanhai alice about that though.

Other ways of sell is finding out if you can get a japanese distributer for comikt and other doujin places, as well as american Anime cons.

Prime32

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #358 on: January 18, 2015, 03:06:27 PM »
So... I'm not sure if this is an issue any more, but if it ever comes back up:

As I understand it, ZUN and most doujin creators in general don't want people to experience derivative works before they've experienced the original, to avoid distorting peoples' image of the characters or making them think the fanwork is the real thing. However, there have been a few cases of ZUN allowing Touhou characters in commercial works which could fall outside that. Specifically I'm thinking of Nendoroid Generation and Lord of Vermillion. What these two games have in common is that they're crossovers, making it obvious that they are not "the Touhou game". Likewise there's Graffiti Kingdom and Magic Pengel, where Reimu's appearance is more of a cameo than anything and she's not referred to by name.

So, if ZUN does ever object to your project "creating secondaries" to the point where it can't continue, I suggest turning it into a crossover. Contact Monty Oum and anyone else you think might be receptive to the idea, throw their characters into the mix, and make sure the source of each is clearly displayed in-game.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 03:10:30 PM by Prime32 »

tohosubs

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #359 on: January 18, 2015, 03:09:05 PM »
People who know how: I'd rather wait for a clear written explanation in Japanese, but if this video starts getting attention among Japanese fans on Twitter, please help undo any misunderstanding, possibly by linking to this partial transcript: http://pastebin.com/10tvAKjs

Saijee, I have to stress that it's still extremely important to communicate with Japanese fans to avoid any misunderstanding. Please don't lose the information war again.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 03:14:28 PM by tohosubs »
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