Touhou 14.5: 東方深秘録 ~ Urban Legend in Limbo. is HM sequel, demo at Comiket 87

[Gpop]

Personally, I think comeback mechanics are okay as long as they don't hold the losing player's hand too firmly to the point of rewarding the player for "sucking". GGXrd's Hell Fire mode is probably a good example as it boosts your Overdrive damage but puts you at the risk of getting combo'd into an Instant Kill if the opponent is on match point. So essentially it gives you a chance to even the playing field, but it also has a risk factor attached to it.

I'm okay with that kind of stuff yeah. There needs to be more risk involved with comeback mechanics. Unlike some comeback mechanics *cough*x-factor*cough*

[Kurtis]

Character Speculation:
 
All of HM characters
Satori, Orin and Utsuho( since Koishi is in HM )
Yukari
Yuyuko and Youmu ( since they are ghosts )
Flandre and Nue need to appear in more games
Mokou and Kaguya, Eirin and Reisen ( since they were planned for UNL )
Seija
Shinmyoumaru Sakuna
The Moriya Crew

I hope it has lots of characters

To be honest, I'm really hoping that the characters from HM don't make it in ULiL. I want to see a bunch of new characters in ULiL rather than eight of the characters being re-used from the previous fighter. I can understand Kokoro or Mamizou being re-used or something, but definitely not ALL of them.

Sure, it would be convenient for them because they would already have the sprites... I don't know, I won't really care THAT much if most of the characters would be re-used, all I'm saying is that I'm excited to see new characters being put in the game.

[cuc]

Research: some sources of Rinnosuke's posters.
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3485574995

Some were pointed out by Japanese fans. For the rest, the poster used a clever method: by searching using the key words 昭和 看板 (Showa poster).

[FearNagae]

I really hope Nue and Sukuna is getting in, I don't have a real favorite yet in 13.5. :3

[Leon゠Helsing]

To be honest, I'm really hoping that the characters from HP don't make it in ULiL. I want to see a bunch of new characters in ULiL rather than eight of the characters being re-used from the previous fighter. I can understand Kokoro or Mamizou being re-used or something, but definitely not ALL of them.

Personally, I see a 95.5% chance of all the HM characters making it into ULiL. The entire cast of IaMP did make it into SWR, which used pretty much the same sprites with minor touch-ups, didn't they?

[Kurtis]

Personally, I see a 95.5% chance of all the HM characters making it into ULiL. The entire cast of IaMP did make it into SWR, which used pretty much the same sprites with minor touch-ups, didn't they?

Yeah, the chances are pretty high. But on the bright side, at least the HM cast would get gorgeous portraits drawn by Moe Harukawa (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm pretty sure she's the artist for ULiL).

[Tiamat]

I saw "Touhou 14.5" and expected a nice christmas present. Instead I learn it's a sequel to the crapfest that was HM.... So disappointed... sooooo disappointed.... Sigh... -_- Thanks for nothing, Tasofro. Way to get my hopes up. Merry fucking christmas to you too...

Well... I hope someone enjoys it , at least. I know I won't. What's so complicated about this? Air-based fighters are terrible games. Ugh! No amount of "hur de hur hur spellcard system" or "magic fire thingie at the bottom of the screen" mechanics can change that. You can cover a turd in hot fudge and sprinkle marshmallows all over it but that's still a steaming pile of shit under all that interesting stuff - nobody's going to want to eat that!!

Fuck you Tasofro. From the depths of my heart. Fuck you hard.

Okay, I swear this game will have a ton of missed potential if the final boss isn't a Grinch youkai.

Personally, I see a 95.5% chance of all the HM characters making it into ULiL. The entire cast of IaMP did make it into SWR, which used pretty much the same sprites with minor touch-ups, didn't they?

Meiling didn't.  Not sure if she counts, though.

But yea, odds are pretty flarkin' good that all of the HM cast will make it in.  Or at the very least, most.  Not as much point to re-using your prior fighting game's assets if you aren't going to be re-using your prior fighting game's assets.

[Critz]

A new air-only fighting game? Can't say I'm thrilled - a fair share of what made HM so kusoge was the aerial movement itself and the inherent problems it caused, notably:

-very slow gameflow in comparison to 12.3's fast-paced action due to the 8-way movement, floatiness, less bullets and difficulty at pinning down opponents

-popularity system - they *had* to somehow compensate for guard being nigh-impossible to break, so they WILL have to implement *some* heavy game-changing penalty for blocking in ULiL, lest everyone would just get a couple of hits and then turtle for the rest of the round (hope it's just some heavy weakening of guard durability as opposed to flat-out alternate win condition this time around though)

-jumping up and down necessitated getting rid of quarter-circle and DP motions, and subsequently the inclusion of the godawful 8-card direction decks from HM - having to take skills, spell cards, system cards, differences between skill directions AND faiths into consideration when building an 8-slot deck was far too much. I always ended up either never using half of the characters' options, never using system cards, not picking correct directional skills that turned out to be essential to the characters' gameplan after I've checked the wiki, being unable to set up both skills and faith that I wanted at once or being severely screwed by muscle memory when I tried to correct any of the above or to just experiment with options. Not to mention combo notation problems. Either set up fixed inputs like IaMP or SWR-style decks if you want me to play this.

Welp, luckily they can easily fix the lesser problems HM had - such as small roster, mere 3 spell cards per character, useless Last Words, poor code optimization or boring character mechanics (notably Koishi and Byakuren, who stick to a single skill 99% of the time from what I've seen on tournament vids - prolly due to their mechanics denying them the option to choose a correct skill for the situation on the fly).

Still, in my humble opinion most of the above need thorough adressing *in addition* to keeping the entire HM cast in and adding some popular characters such as Mima for this game to be remotely able to be a contender against Soku in the fanbase's eyes - *removing* characters from HM and replacing them with different ones instead of expanding the roster will be a deathblow to that end.

And the piano... welp, the randomness of it reeks to me of either SWRSoku's weather stupidity or HM's weird system cards. I just hope to god that's a minor option like the latter and not a central game mechanic. Then again, I'm not expecting anything this time around - I might even end up pleasantly suprised as opposed to HM's release.

[Aba Matindesu!]

Yeah, there's a world of difference between legit criticism that actually makes points supported by an argument, and the kind of temper tantrum fuck-you-laden cries of entitlement from people who didn't get exactly what they wanted. And that's leaving aside how many of these folks weren't about to give ZUN their money anyway.

Make cogent points of criticism or stop bleating about your precious expectations that "ruined Christmas". You can do that on /jp/.

This. I stroll into the thread hoping for some discussion and well-written points of criticism, I come out thinking /r/leagueoflegends moved to MotK.

[FearNagae]

Lol, I really hope, even with just 3 spells per character, spells that actually do something instead of just being reversal/combo move with different names.  :3

[Starxsword]

Eh, the general reaction to SWR from IaMP players has always been negative, and indeed some people didn't even bother trying it, but a good portion of the IaMP playerbase did give SWR a fair chance and some even played it for a few months before dropping it.

Isn't that because you are separating between IaMP players and SWR players? I played IaMP and played SWR and I liked SWR more because of better controls and gameplay. I didn't like the spell card declaration system IaMP has. So, now I would fall under the SWR playerbase and not the IaMP playerbase?

@cast: I assume the Hopeless Masquerade cast will be there. I wonder who the new characters will be and how many they will introduce.

[Aba Matindesu!]

Now that Nitori'and Byakuren are in, maybe there's hope for Mokou and Kaguya?

Meiling

Come to think of it, I wonder what it is that prompted Tasofro to bring Meiling back. Or was it that they wanted her in but needed a more convincing scenario and a more balanced moveset?

[sol35]

So Hopeless Mess gets a sequel huh? Oh well... I guess that's fine, some people liked it. More power to them, I guess. It just wasn't my thing. At least they seem to be fixing up a few of its problems so that's nice. I'm just going to sit this one out though. But I'm curious what the story will be about and what new character(s?) will be introduced. That could be interesting to see.

I was hoping this would be another shooter spinoff game like DS/GFW/StB/ISC or something though. Oh well. Maybe next one!

[not ZUNs wife]

Sad to say, this is the first time I'm not excited about a new Touhou game. A "Touhou fighting game" was a fun novelty after transitioning to Windows, but by now like every second game is one of those, and fighting games aren't even my style. Still hoping to see a canon Touhou RPG as the new novelty thing, or at least more of those experimental bullet hells like StB, ISC, GFW...

Well, hate to complain about potentially good news, especially on Christmas. Hopefully some of you will play and enjoy this game in my stead! :V

[nyttyn]

Almost all, if not all of HM is likely to make it back.

Nitori will likely continue to be a douche, and fans of Nitori will still be divided into the MoF Nitori and SA/HM Nitori camps.

Keine's probably the most likely new inclusion (She's a school teacher, and a huge history buff. Urban legends (namely the seven horrors) play to both of her roles). Mokou and Keine are possible inclusions due to being on the cutting floor from SWR. Youmu scared of ghosts, so obvious pick, and by extension, Yuyuko. Someone from DDC'll likely make it in because DDC is new and shiny (my money's on sekibanki). Probably some random oddball pick too for fanserivce (maybe Yuugi?).

Newhu is very probably and is probably going to be universally liked (see suika, tenshi, iku, and kokoro).

Hopefully twilight frontier gets their shit together and the game isn't a horribly buggy mess at launch. They're using the same engine, so here's hoping.

Honestly people should just judge this game on its own merits instead of comparing it to SWR. Honestly, look at smash bros: smash 4 was built off the back of brawl instead of melee, and it's generally considered a pretty damn good game (competitively). Sure, ULiL won't be another SWR, and HM was frankly rather abysmal, but this game has a perfectly fine chance of being good (assuming that TF got their shit together).

[Colticide]

I would love to see Sekibanki in the game but of all the characters in DDC I'd say Kagerou or Raiko. Kagerou fits the role so well with her melee like spell cards, she's be so fun to play if it turns out like in my head. Raiko for the silly fact that a EX (technically 2 I guess.) has already been in HM so I'd love to see what she could do.

[nyttyn]

True that Kagerou would be the 'obvious' pick from a gameplay standpoint, but ZUN usually prioritize whoever makes sense over gameplay mechanics. Then again who knows how big a say twilight frontier has in it (see: koifish's inclusion in HM, which was total fanservice).

[Clarste]

True that Kagerou would be the 'obvious' pick from a gameplay standpoint, but ZUN usually prioritize whoever makes sense over gameplay mechanics. Then again who knows how big a say twilight frontier has in it (see: koifish's inclusion in HM, which was total fanservice).

Koishi was the second most important person in the plot of HM? By contrast Futo and Ichirin had no role whatsoever.

[Colticide]

Koishi was the second most important person in the plot of HM? By contrast Futo and Ichirin had no role whatsoever.

So was the whole religion thing just a front that people used to take advantage of the issues? What was Koishi's role in it anyway?

[Savory]

Mokou and Keine are possible inclusions due to being on the cutting floor from SWR.

It's for that reason that I'm hoping Wriggle gets in too.

[Leon゠Helsing]

So was the whole religion thing just a front that people used to take advantage of the issues? What was Koishi's role in it anyway?

Spoiler:

She pretty much kickstarted the entire plot.

[Koog]

Urban Legends? Can Nue make it plz? (I just want her for love of god.)
After that screenshot, I thought of Yukari.
Someone bring at least a person from the Moriya Shrine back.
Also, would like to see Mamizou (only because she was the only one I could combo with.)

[Colticide]

Spoiler:

She pretty much kickstarted the entire plot.

Wha-what!? Off to the wiki! (I'd prefer to play through it but I'm not there yet.)

[Gpop]

Spoiler:

She pretty much kickstarted the entire plot.

Spoiler:

Yes and no. She didn't start it, although she was vital to the story. Hata no Kokoro dropped her mask into a fissure herself that let it fall into the underground, in which Koishi managed to find it herself (she didn't technically steal it). In the end she became important because she was unwilling to give back the original mask due to being emotionally attached to it (in the most literal way).

[monhan]

Seeing people's opinions regarding HM keeps exceeding what I had in mind. The more I read through it, the more it surprises me.

To be honest, I'm really hoping that the characters from HM don't make it in ULiL. I want to see a bunch of new characters in ULiL rather than eight of the characters being re-used from the previous fighter. I can understand Kokoro or Mamizou being re-used or something, but definitely not ALL of them.

Sure, it would be convenient for them because they would already have the sprites... I don't know, I won't really care THAT much if most of the characters would be re-used, all I'm saying is that I'm excited to see new characters being put in the game.

So even if we get a lot of new characters, old or brand-new,  but also keeping the casts of HM, then it's not alright for you?
Though I'm expecting to see Yukari again because she's an urban legend in her own right, or adding the Prismrivers or Tsukumos

This is an ULiL discussion, right? Can we just start speculating on the game's story?

The prologue was in the 26th chapter of WaHH, with the man-faced dog. Haven't read it so I don't know how it ends, but it might be the same case as the Chupacabra.
But I have the suspicion that this might've been caused by one of the youma book in the Suzunaan. It would be kind of funny if the perpetrator is some famous urban legend book writer who sealed herself into her own book.

[Fumi]

Research: some sources of Rinnosuke's posters.
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3485574995

Some were pointed out by Japanese fans. For the rest, the poster used a clever method: by searching using the key words 昭和 看板 (Showa poster).

These kind of posters are weird, pretty kourindou indeed. Wonder if this time we will see more stuff that stepped from outside the border.
One thing I would like to see is a story mode that, like mentioned in earlier posts, could be different than the usual pseudo-arcade mode we get, I mean, for example some battles get a special gimmick in game.

Now that I think about it, the incident this time is related to controlling the urban legends but since these are easily modified, what if you get to do some pre-battle stuff? Like, you can add or remove details in your myth which (possibly) will change how you fight and etc. And what if even if you lose you can continue playing? Like you lose, but you only lose equipment or "legends", winning will let you gain additional equipment or stuff to use in battle?

Another thing it's bothering me is how is the cast gonna end? At least when HM was announced we already expected some of the cast, but this time it could be anyone. Will we see HM characters back? Since they said it is gonna be a new game then this game for individuality value would have a different cast (and for HM value too) because well, the HM characters have not much of a reason to get involved both story-wise and gameplay-wise (Some characters losing their special gimmick would be too plain, like Futo or Byakuren)

I have high hopes for this game, I loved HM so much and still if the Touhou's 10th anniversary is true (And taking into account ZUN said it was a good game), and ALSO the fact ZUN, Tasofro and Harukawa will be working on it then it's gonna be spectacular. Sure I love Danmaku games, I play them more than fighters (and I'm good at them) but I really like when a lot of characters get in one place, more on a fighter because we get to see more of them.

[Colticide]

Spoiler:

Yes and no. She didn't start it, although she was vital to the story. Hata no Kokoro dropped her mask into a fissure herself that let it fall into the underground, in which Koishi managed to find it herself (she didn't technically steal it). In the end she became important because she was unwilling to give back the original mask due to being emotionally attached to it (in the most literal way).

Is that why they are often paired up in artwork?

Spoiler:

Koishi doesn't really have emotions because of what she did to her powers right? So her getting that mask must have been incredibly important for her I'm assuming.

Well for story in 14.5 obviously something is making these urban legends come to light making it an issue. With the story summary posted earlier with it saying something happened one day despite the girls keeping the urban legends under control. It's pretty easy to tell we are gonna get someone new who is connected with either controlling or manifesting these legends.

[Clarste]

Another thing it's bothering me is how is the cast gonna end? At least when HM was announced we already expected some of the cast, but this time it could be anyone. Will we see HM characters back? Since they said it is gonna be a new game then this game for individuality value would have a different cast (and for HM value too) because well, the HM characters have not much of a reason to get involved both story-wise and gameplay-wise (Some characters losing their special gimmick would be too plain, like Futo or Byakuren)

Since making sprites for a fighting game takes a lot of work, I think the odds of them not reusing most of the HM cast are pretty much zero. They might drop one or two, but I'd expect most of them to come back even if it doesn't make much sense. Remilia came back for SWR, for example, and her story was all about how she couldn't go outside and therefore couldn't interact with the plot in any way.

[Colticide]

Since making sprites for a fighting game takes a lot of work, I think the odds of them not reusing most of the HM cast are pretty much zero. They might drop one or two, but I'd expect most of them to come back even if it doesn't make much sense. Remilia came back for SWR, for example, and her story was all about how she couldn't go outside and therefore couldn't interact with the plot in any way.

Heck they might leave a few out in place for new ones but doing something like SWR and Soku and copy data to expand the roster for just mutiplayer.

[cuc]

For people who don't want this game, I say you can just treat it as the next slightly expensive Touhou multimedia package, in the form of music, high definition artwork, character banter, and demonstrations of the characters' fighting styles.

Prediction-wise, I'm fairly satisfied with foreseeing the absence of Moriya in HM, and won't go crazy with prediction this time. My ideas are:

If HM is in major key, this game will be in minor key. Where HM's atmosphere is grandiose, bright and festive, ULiL's stages will be small, dark, and quiet.

The added characters will be connected to mundane horrors similar to urban legends. An example lineup: Hina (dolls and curses), Orin (corpse stealing), Kogasa (Boo!), Yoshika, Sekibanki.