Which characters got "twisted" or misused by the fandom the most?

[Raikaria]

Given that Rinnosuke does jack shit in canon besides run a shop and be snarky to the girls who frequent it, the only reason you could possibly find him horrible is if you're a yurifan that mad that Gensokyo isn't some Happy Male-Free Magical Anime Waifu Land.

Because seriously, he doesn't even do anything deserving of hate.

You could argue he is partially responsible for Marisa because he gave [and personalized] the Hakkero to her.

Which is probobly a large factor in her thefts and such. But also a factor in her being a protag... oh wait Reimu is canon in most games except MAYBE SA and UFO [Where it's one of the Sanae routes because Myouren actually forms]. Reimu is generaly canon unless canon directly contradicts it. [UFO]

So it's not that Rinnosuke hasn't done ANYTHING in canon. He's done things indirectly. You could argue everything Marisa has done from EoSD onwards is in part Rinnosuke's responsibility.  Heck; if Marisa did not have the Hakkero; she wouldn't be in DDC since she had no weapon to act up. Rinnosuke is the reason Marisa can perform the Master Spark. Where would Marisa be without that?

Which; for a guy who's not even been in a game besides a background character in HM; is pretty darn impressive.

Anyway, I hate the 'No Males in Gensokyo' perception as well. I support 'No superpowered males' with the exception of Unzan/Tenma [Who is called a Lord so we assume is male; although Miko is a Prince and is female so -_[._.]_- ]. But no males? Hell no. Maybe there is a lack of male youkai. Maybe they were more aggressive than females and killed each other off. But male humans certainly exist.

I mean; we know of several males who exist in Touhou:
Marisa's father
Rinnosuke
Genji
Unzan
Yorihime/Toyohime's husbands [They are canonically married]
Youki
Likly Lord Tenma
Mokou's father

That's 9 males who have been mentioned or seen in Touhou, although 1 is posthumously [Mokou's father], but he's pretty much the core of Mokou's drive for revenge so he's kinda important. That's far from 'No males in Touhou'. And this is discounting the 'Maybes' like Sariel and characters who have not been mentioned but obviously exist, like Maribel/Renko/Sanae's fathers. Even if we assume Youkai can reproduce without a male by magic Youkai stuff; all humans would still need both genders.

===

Also I'm probobly guilty of one of the biggest wild mass guessings for Elly [To the point I give her a country of origin and even a date she must have existed before]. But at least I don't turn her into Yuuka's chew toy. I hate that. [I usually think Elly as the only one Yuuka treats with any modicum of respect because of her loyalty; the opposite to what many others think.]

[Tiamat]

That's 9 males who have been mentioned or seen in Touhou, although 1 is posthumously [Mokou's father], but he's pretty much the core of Mokou's drive for revenge so he's kinda important. That's far from 'No males in Touhou'. And this is discounting the 'Maybes' like Sariel and characters who have not been mentioned but obviously exist, like Maribel/Renko/Sanae's fathers. Even if we assume Youkai can reproduce without a male by magic Youkai stuff; all humans would still need both genders.

Unnamed male humans are all over the place in HM's backgrounds and in the latest print works.  Male youkai, on the other hand, are much rarer (only one I can think of where we've actually SEEN any are Unzan, hobgoblins in that one WaHH chapter, and the picture that went with Byakuren's article in SoPM) but still existant (as shown by the examples I just gave).

[Drake]

Just to mention, as far as I can tell there's never been any reference or hints to the gender of Lord Tenma. "Lord" is just what's been translated from 様, and is not gender-specific.

[Clarste]

Just to mention, as far as I can tell there's never been any reference or hints to the gender of Lord Tenma. "Lord" is just what's been translated from 様, and is not gender-specific.

Yeah, Japanese isn't too big on gendered titles, since they gender their language in other ways. Pretty much everyone we've never seen the face of is left ambiguous.

As for the list of "known" males, I would add Iwakasa from Mokou's backstory and Unshou from that one chapter of WaHH. And probably Tsukuyomi (on account of being Amaterasu's brother), but after Miko I guess anything's possible.

[Razzi Zadhna]

Anyway, I hate the 'No Males in Gensokyo' perception as well. I support 'No superpowered males' with the exception of Unzan/Tenma [Who is called a Lord so we assume is male; although Miko is a Prince and is female so -_[._.]_- ].

Oh christ, this is as dumb as "no males hurr".

There's literally nothing in canon stating that men equal to the 2hu's in power don't exist. Apparently Danmaku is a super-girly thing in Gensokyo ('cause it's "beautiful" and we all know men are literally incapable of appreciating beauty  )  which is the actual canon reason we don't see male bosses or PC's. Personally I feel that's dumb as hell*, but hey it's ZUN's universe and disregarding that in my own fanworks is a super minor thing. Unless you want to tell me straight to my face that there are zero male youkai which is ridiculous given that very few youkai species in the series are female-only. Also the Crow Tengu lay eggs which implies heterosexual intercourse so there's that.

Seriously guys. 2hu canon is not that complex. It takes like a day of reading the wiki to get nearly everything down besides the manga.

*: Especially considered the unfortunate implications of "all girls of all time love pretty things and are so shallow that they'll choose a fighting style just 'cause it's pretty", but as a Japanese person raised in Japanese culture I'm not going to be too hard on ZUN for being unintentionally sexist, since he DOES have a massive list of interesting and independent female characters, which is more than I can say for his peers...

[Tengukami]

Apparently Danmaku is a super-girly thing in Gensokyo ('cause it's "beautiful" and we all know men are literally incapable of appreciating beauty  )  which is the actual canon reason we don't see male bosses or PC's.

Not to doubt the veracity of your claims here, but can you provide a cite for how danmaku is the canon reason why there are no boss dudes in Gensokyo?

Seriously guys. 2hu canon is not that complex. It takes like a day of reading the wiki to get nearly everything down besides the manga.

Sorry I am apparently incapable of grasping every detail of the Touhou canon universe, but if the input and participation on this forum is anything to go by, you must be in the slim minority of people who have fully attained encyclopedic Touhou Canon Knowledge.

[Edible]

sup chagen

[Razzi Zadhna]

Not to doubt the veracity of your claims here, but can you provide a cite for how danmaku is the canon reason why there are no boss dudes in Gensokyo?

It's never really been stated outright but a few things ZUN has said or written has implied it pretty heavily:

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/ZUN%27s_reply_to_messages_on_the_former_Gensou_Bulletin_Board_3

(ctrl+F "stubborn girls")

Then we have Reimu's article in PMiSS, where a footnote to the reasoning behind her creating the spell card rules says (it's the last footnote): It appears various other rules were also considered, but as the beauty and volume of danmaku especially appealed to youkai and women, they aren't as popular.

Sorry I am apparently incapable of grasping every detail of the Touhou canon universe, but if the input and participation on this forum is anything to go by, you must be in the slim minority of people who have fully attained encyclopedic Touhou Canon Knowledge.

Please don't turn me into some terrible person because I have opinions that don't match the majority, and because I'm annoyed when people fill in canon with whatever they want. Twisting or disregarding various bits of canon is fine, but not knowing a part of it and then filling in the resultant hole with whatever you want is bad.

[Tengukami]

It's never really been stated outright but a few things ZUN has said or written has implied it pretty heavily:

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/ZUN%27s_reply_to_messages_on_the_former_Gensou_Bulletin_Board_3

(ctrl+F "stubborn girls")

Then we have Reimu's article in PMiSS, where a footnote to the reasoning behind her creating the spell card rules says (it's the last footnote): It appears various other rules were also considered, but as the beauty and volume of danmaku especially appealed to youkai and women, they aren't as popular.

Well, see, the part you bolded yourself seems to undermine your claim that this is why there are no boss dudes in Gensokyo. Surely there are male youkai, as you made a point to emphasize earlier. So no, danmaku is not "the actual canon reason", as you declared.

Please don't turn me into some terrible person because I have opinions that don't match the majority, and because I'm annoyed when people fill in canon with whatever they want. Twisting or disregarding various bits of canon is fine, but not knowing a part of it and then filling in the resultant hole with whatever you want is bad.

Oh this isn't about your opinions. But I mean, sneering at everyone for not "getting everything down" in Touhou lore is just another example of this kind of "me against all you plebs" posturing that you seem to be fond of around here. How about just, like, stating your opinions without some pre-emptive "I know all you idiots in the fandom think [X], but I, on the other hand, think [Y]". Just as a change of pace.

[Razzi Zadhna]

Okay, fine, I was really aggressive. I apologize. I'll make an effort to not be so aggressive now on.

[haoreos2]

Incidentally, regarding the "not every female appreciates beauty" concept, it could be the case that the "incident resolver" or the aggressor gets to choose the duel style, or even that prideful Youkai would simply go with whatever their opponent specializes in to give them a handicap. After all, many of the protagonists of the integer games have displayed an interest in things like flower viewings, and the installments that have the most diverse range of playable characters also happen to be ones that use fighting rules instead. Games like shoot the bullet are naturally going to use the style that makes for the most impressive photos, what with that being the point of the game and all.

We don't see most of Gensokyo at any given time, after all. Who knows, Youkai more into other types of rules might do so all the time, provided they all adhere to the spirit of the standard set and only differ in mechanics. Heck, if you take IN's implication that a standard 6-boss-marathon incident actually takes hours, it might not be that weird for said incident to include multiple kinds of duels.

[Raikaria]

Incidentally, regarding the "not every female appreciates beauty" concept, it could be the case that the "incident resolver" or the aggressor gets to choose the duel style, or even that prideful Youkai would simply go with whatever their opponent specializes in to give them a handicap.

See: Yuugi; Suika; possibly Meiling.

There's several females who don't like danmaku. Even Marisa is of the opinion danmaku is a display of power, not beauty.

On the other hand, most of Ichirin's danmaku is actually Unzan's. So that's at least one male who does danmaku.

Personally I still like thinking in my headcanon that Touhou is so male-dominated because Youkai males were mostly too aggressive and got killed by each other/humans/Reimu's predecessors. It just seems like a thing that might be true. But why the series is so female-based is entirely headcanon. There's no explanation anywhere. Hell, it could be something as mundane and dumb as 'Gensokyo is for forgotten things; monsters are usually portayed male so females go to Gensokyo'.

Of course the out-of-canon reason is because ZUN wants his game filled with girls.

[TresserT]

Of course the out-of-canon reason is because ZUN wants his game filled with girls.

If you think about it, youkai are the embodiment of human fear. So of course they're all women. I've always thought of youkai as genderless since there's no reason for humans to fear one gender over the other, and they just all choose to look like girls for whatever reason.

[Razzi Zadhna]

To rerail this: I'm starting to get a little tired of how a ton of people think that Seija does EVERYTHING the exact opposite of everyone else. Like, she is literally the antithesis to everything and everyone. She's not the Ebon Dragon*. She doesn't define herself solely by her opposition to everyone. She's a a rebel who likes to start shit and fuck with people, but otherwise she's a normal youkai/person/character.


*:How many people will get this reference

[Sagus]

To rerail this: I'm starting to get a little tired of how a ton of people think that Seija does EVERYTHING the exact opposite of everyone else. Like, she is literally the antithesis to everything and everyone. She's not the Ebon Dragon*. She doesn't define herself solely by her opposition to everyone. She's a a rebel who likes to start shit and fuck with people, but otherwise she's a normal youkai/person/character.


*:How many people will get this reference

Uh... no:

She's always thinking the opposite of what other people think.
She likes what people hate, and falls into self-loathing when she makes them happy.
She never listens to orders. Even if she profits off something, she doesn't give anything in return.

Thinking/wanting/being the antithesis of what other people think/want/are is literally the meaning behind her existence as a youkai. She's an actually unpleasant creature through and through, and not only is that how she likes it, it's what she strives to be. Making her out to be just a rebellious, moody teenager is what twisting her character would be like.

[Leon゠Helsing]

Either way, I think we can all agree that the purpose of her character is to be a grade S Bitch. :V

[Razzi Zadhna]

Uh... no:Thinking/wanting/being the antithesis of what other people think/want/are is literally the meaning behind her existence as a youkai. She's an actually unpleasant creature through and through, and not only is that how she likes it, it's what she strives to be. Making her out to be just a rebellious, moody teenager is what twisting her character would be like.

I'm not talking about that. Tengukami actually echoed my sentiments in an earlier topic:

https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16693.msg1098221.html#msg1098221

[Sagus]

Well, you said "She doesn't define herself solely by her opposition to everyone". Going by her profile, that is exactly what she does. She's a youkai, not a normal human that just likes to be contrarian. Being contrarian is literally her nature, her reason to exist. In fact, what she needs to do to exist.

But I suppose you meant more on the very extreme depictions, like the "suicidal, depressed masochist that litters and wastes money" one mentioned in the post you linked? In that case, you're right, yeah.

[Tengukami]

Yeah, my POV about Seija is that it would be impossible to literally contradict/oppose everyone without running into some unresolvable paradoxes. Just as Cirno being able to manipulate cold doesn't mean she can freeze all things everywhere, Seija's contrarianism also has its safely assumed limits. I mean, she demonstrably makes allies (however temporary) to meet her own ends, as we see in DDC (hell, she practically tries to recruit Marisa in her own way!). I think her profile blurb all the same underscores her generally rebellious and contrarian spirit.