A theory about Alice

[R.P.]

Hello to everyone i'm R.P. , before i start to talk about the theory i want to ask you if i need to introduce myself before posting anything , if i need to do so please tell my where i need to do so because i didn't found a section of the forum for doing that.
Then lets start talking about this theory that i thinked in this days, i start to think about it after i read a doujin so is not a my theory at 100% still is different from that of the doujin but substantialy stated the same thing: that the Windows Alice is a doll manipulated by the Pc-98 Alice. Now the difference beetween my theory and the one of the doujin is the way i arrived to that conclusion so now i will tell you how i arrived to that . Now we know that the Alice of pc-98 as a more childlish apparence than the Windows and that being her a youkai she can't get her more mature apparence by getting older (youkai age slower) so , we now thanks to PMiSS that Alice was once human (and i don't think that this is a false information because is more likely that Akyuu got this information from Alice herself) and also thanks to PMiSS that she is like a doll herself; now lets try to recostruct the story of Alice : At the beginnig Alice that is still a human start to learn magic for an uknown reason eventually she found the makai and start to train there and after an intense training she become a youkai and she decide to live in the makai (for train herself more or because she was adopted by Shinki) then the events of mystic square happened she get the grimoire of Alice and lost against the heroines in the extra stage then in the time beetween MS and PCB she start to notice how people (specifically human people ) around her grow up while she still remains a child because of her being a youkai so she decide to make this doll that have the apparence of an older herself that she disguise for herself ; that explain why get older in a small amount of time and maybe why don't use the grimoire of alice anymore (maybe for her is to difficult to manovre the fake herself and execute the complex spell of the grimoire ).
So that was my theory i hope that you like it and that my english was good enought bye

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

Sounds cool. But that's just a fan thing. I'd not take it seriously.

There's no evidence anywhere stating that Windows Alice is a different being from PC98 Alice.

[CyberAngel]

Hello to everyone i'm R.P. , before i start to talk about the theory i want to ask you if i need to introduce myself before posting anything , if i need to do so please tell my where i need to do so because i didn't found a section of the forum for doing that.

Here.

About theory itself, there's only one issue. Why assuming PC-98 Alice is youkai already? Being a powerful magician doesn't automatically make one a youkai, nor being a youkai is needed to be a powerful magician. Just look at Marisa. Actually, it requires a certain spell for a human magician to become a youkai magician. Marisa did work on one. If I were to say, it would make more sense for Alice to become youkai after finding the grimoire. For all we know, it might contain just the needed spell, and it might have taken her some time to prepare for it, enough to grow up into how we see her now.

But of course, theories are theories. Any are fine to use in fanfics and doujins as long as they're properly executed and used.

[Sssgth]

@C.Angel

The reason why he/she assumed that PC-98 Alice is a youkai is because it's stated in the Extra Stage dialogue of Mystic Square, by Alice herself, no less, that she is in fact a youkai.

P.S. C.Angel, your profile pic is adorable. What the heck is it, though?

[CyberAngel]

Technically, no, she doesn't say that exactly. What she said can also be taken as her just considering herself being above humans, being able to use such powerful magic and all. It could be just some tough talk and nothing more (something I can picture Alice doing, actually). But of course, it's PC-98 we're talking about, the huge grey area with more theories than actual facts about it. And it's OK for different theories about the same thing to exist.

P.S. C.Angel, your profile pic is adorable. What the heck is it, though?

Petit Charat, aka Puchiko, from Di Gi Charat. Props to NekoNekoRex for mentioning it on his B-day, I enjoyed the original series.

[Tengukami]

And it's OK for different theories about the same thing to exist.

Well, as related to this thread, I think it's also important to point out that not all "theories" are created equal.

A "theory" suggests evidence. A good example of this can be found here. Yes, it makes assumptions and fills in blanks, but by and large it derives all the pieces of the puzzle from official sources. This theory about Alice starts out fine, until we reach "so she decide to make this doll that have the apparence of an older herself that she disguise for herself ".

It's an intriguing idea but what makes this so, directly or indirectly? What hints at this, at least, if not implies this took place?

I guess my point is a "theory" isn't the same as a speculation; the former is very evidenced-based, while the latter is a thought exercise that is supposed to prompt the search for evidence and the development of a theory.

[Raikaria]

Akyu is unreliable; however. And Alice isn't approachable anyway. She spends most of the time in the Forest of Magic [Where humans usually can't go] and is heavily anti-social.

I'm more inclined to go with what is in the game canon. Shinki states everyone within Makai are her creations. Therefor Alice is.


As for the age skip:
The age skip is explained when you realize PC-98 Alice was produced when ZUN worked under Amusement Makers; not Team Shanghai Alice [As an independent]. Alice had to be redesigned for legal reasons; for the same reason Reimu had to be redesigned. [And to a lesser extent Marisa and Yuuka; who received minor redesigns.] I recall hearing he was able to get the rights of those four since he could prove those four were directly his ideas.

This is also why other PC-98 characters have not returned. They are technically not ZUN's property. This also explains a lot of the Windows characters which are basically expies of PC-98 characters; like Sakuya to Yumeko or Meiling to Sara.

Even if this is not the reason; you have to recall the large redesign Marisa underwent between Touhou 2; Touhou 3; and Touhou 4/5.

Touhou 2 Marisa
Touhou 3~5 Marisa
Touhou 3 Marisa with Daemonic wings

In fact Mima even underwent a redesign from Touhou 1 and Touhou 2 [All three forms look very different to Th1]

Oh; and both Marisa and Mima looked different in Mystic Square as well:
Touhou 5 character select

Marisa is now wearing purple/black and is very close to her windows design. [Her sprite is still purple but her bomb is clearly black] Mima lost her Touhou 2 wings and her hat changed again, although in her bomb art it seems she has a cape/wings but they look nothing like TH2.. Also her dress lacks the moon on it she had in Th2.

In short; a lot of recurring PC-98 characters underwent redesigns. Alice getting one is not strange at all.

[Tengukami]

Akyu is unreliable; however.

This meme really needs to stop. Akyuu is only "unreliable" in those instances when it is expressly clear that she is pulling stuff out of thin air. Dismissing everything she's written - or worse, dismissing the things we don't want to accept as canon - with "Akyu is unreliable" is an inaccurate generalization.

I recall hearing he was able to get the rights of those four since he could prove those four were directly his ideas.

This is also why other PC-98 characters have not returned. They are technically not ZUN's property. This also explains a lot of the Windows characters which are basically expies of PC-98 characters; like Sakuya to Yumeko or Meiling to Sara.

Cite? Because what I remember hearing is that all this about AM "owning" the PC-98 characters is an unsubstantiated rumor.

Apart from that, yeah, your point is spot-on: characters getting re-designs is the rule rather than the exception. Like ZUN deciding the 2hus should have shoes instead of slippers (although yeah, there are PC-98 characters with shoes, such as Yumemi, if I remember right) - what's that all about? Did Gensokyo's terrain suddenly become too treacherous for mere slippers? No, it's just a re-design. As far as we now, anyway.

[Raikaria]

I can't remember where I heard that; it was 2/3 years ago; but I recall hearing it and it making sense to me. Because legal mumbo-jumbo would be one of the few things that could explain the almost total redesign of a series' main character. [Not to mention the sudden loss of Genji]. Especially when Reimu was the only one of the three majorly recurring [I'm not counting Yuuka here, although she did trade her parasoul for a heart-tipped wand in Th5] PC-98 characters to NOT get a redesign.

And I only pull out the unreliability thing in regards to Alice because game-canon says the exact opposite of what she claims. Especially since PCB outright states that Mystic Square IS canon because Alice remembers Reimu [While Reimu has forgotten her or doesn't recognize her due to the redesign]; meaning Akyu is incorrect about Alice being 'human' at any point. Akyu is in direct conflict with game canon in this case.

When there's nothing contradicting what Akyu claims I'm perfectly fine with it. But when there are contradictory things; especially things that come directly from Alice's own mouth; I'd rather belive what Alice said about herself than what Akyu claims.

[Romantique Tp]

PC-98 characters being owned by AM is BS made up by some /jp/sie years ago. Amusement Makers isn't even a company, it's a student group.

ZUN redesigned his characters because he wanted to. That's it.

[R.P.]

I can't remember where I heard that; it was 2/3 years ago; but I recall hearing it and it making sense to me. Because legal mumbo-jumbo would be one of the few things that could explain the almost total redesign of a series' main character. [Not to mention the sudden loss of Genji]. Especially when Reimu was the only one of the three majorly recurring [I'm not counting Yuuka here, although she did trade her parasoul for a heart-tipped wand in Th5] PC-98 characters to NOT get a redesign.

And I only pull out the unreliability thing in regards to Alice because game-canon says the exact opposite of what she claims. Especially since PCB outright states that Mystic Square IS canon because Alice remembers Reimu [While Reimu has forgotten her or doesn't recognize her due to the redesign]; meaning Akyu is incorrect about Alice being 'human' at any point. Akyu is in direct conflict with game canon in this case.

When there's nothing contradicting what Akyu claims I'm perfectly fine with it. But when there are contradictory things; especially things that come directly from Alice's own mouth; I'd rather belive what Alice said about herself than what Akyu claims.

In mystic square is said that Alice is youkai not that she didn't was a human before

[CyberAngel]

Shinki states everyone within Makai are her creations. Therefor Alice is.

By that logic, so is whoever you control when you reach her. Because they're in Makai when she says that. See how ridiculous it is when you take things people say literally?

And I only pull out the unreliability thing in regards to Alice because game-canon says the exact opposite of what she claims. Especially since PCB outright states that Mystic Square IS canon because Alice remembers Reimu [While Reimu has forgotten her or doesn't recognize her due to the redesign]; meaning Akyu is incorrect about Alice being 'human' at any point. Akyu is in direct conflict with game canon in this case.

You might have missed it if you don't follow news or latest interviews with ZUN, but he actually said that in case of contradictions, the latest information should be considered canon. And there's no "expanded universe" for Touhou - official non-game sources are just as much canon as games.

[Tengukami]

Not to mention Shinki never said she created everyone in Makai; just that Makai was her creation. We don't actually know Alice's origins. Makai being a demon world and Alice being (probably) human at the time, it seems more likely she entered the realm from the outside. But there's nothing definitive on Shinki creating Alice.

[Drake]

I've actually heard that ZUN doesn't own the IP of PC-98 things from quite a few people, actually!

It's still total bullshit though. Everyone hears it from each other and it spreads because it's an easy way for people to justify ZUN not doing things with the older games that doesn't end up with "he doesn't like it/doesn't want to".

I mean I just googled "ZUN doesn't own PC-98" and I ended up with Onimaru of all people claiming this. Recently.

It is generally common knowledge that when he left Amusement Makers to work on his own projects: the Windows series, he was not able (or did not try) to retain the rights to all of the characters from the first 5 Touhou games. You have to remember that Amusement Makers was nothing more than a small student group at a university in Tokyo. Because of this, it is not a well documented thing and I can't easily make any explicit citation. Nevertheless, the PC-98 series was a college project and it is very likely that ZUN could have retained all the rights if he had wanted to. But he either was not able to, or didn't particularly care to.

Like what no. How can you say that you have no citation and Amusement Makers is a student group and it isn't well-documented and he "could have kept the rights if he wanted to", but still just assume that he doesn't own the rights anyways and then go on to say he wasn't able or didn't care.

"Common knowledge" is just codeword for "unsubstantiated claims too many people take for granted as fact".

[Prime32]

Is it really so hard to believe that ZUN would be a little embarassed about stuff he wrote when he was young? The PC-98 games didn't even have a setting, ZUN just threw in whatever seemed cool (She has a talking ICBM! And now a character from that manga I like shows up!). Nowadays Touhou has a complex canon where almost everything is a reference to Japanese history or mythology, and most of the PC-98 stuff just wouldn't make sense to include.

Imagine you're a published author of mystery novels and people keep asking when you're going to include characters from a Sonic/DBZ crossover fanfic you wrote when you were ten. This is probably how ZUN feels whenever people bring up Mima. :V
EDIT: Highly Responsive to Prayers is almost 20 years old now. ZUN made it when he was what, 17?

We don't actually know Alice's origins. Makai being a demon world and Alice being (probably) human at the time, it seems more likely she entered the realm from the outside.

No, she refers to herself as being not human multiple times.

[Tengukami]

No, she refers to herself as being not human multiple times.

Are you sure about that? I think we already addressed this up-thread, at least as far as MS is concerned.

[Camilo113]

No, she refers to herself as being not human multiple times.

She doesn't directly says she is not-human at all during Mystic Square, the only instance she says something close to "Im-not-human" is during Reimu's Main Scenario and Marisa's Extra Scenario:

To Reimu: "A human like you coming here probably means that you're prepared to to face us!!"
To Marisa: "This is magic that a human like you would never be able to master."

But even this is not a concrete evidence of Alice being not-human, after all she could just be emphasizing her superiority over simple humans (because she obtained a power superior to what a human can achieve?). And, even if she refers to Reimu and Marisa as "humans" that doesn't means she is not human; a lot of characters do the same, like Mokou during Imperishable Night to the Barrier Team and the Magic Team:

To Barrier Team: "To think that there'd be humans wandering around in here."

To Magic Team: "Oh, since when have humans been this foolish?"

And as we all know, Mokou is a human being; a human being who attained a power beyond a mere human, but is still a human.

Ergo, a character refering to others as humans doesn't mean he/she is not human himself/herself.

And I only pull out the unreliability thing in regards to Alice because game-canon says the exact opposite of what she claims. Especially since PCB outright states that Mystic Square IS canon because Alice remembers Reimu [While Reimu has forgotten her or doesn't recognize her due to the redesign]; meaning Akyu is incorrect about Alice being 'human' at any point.

Why you say Alice being a human at any point is false?

AFAIK a human magician can become a youkai magician after long exposure to high amount of magic. For example Byakuren; she was a normal (human) nun, but after her brother's death she began to practice black magic and became a youkai magician due to this. So Alice could have perfectly been a human at the beginning but became a youkai after learning the Grimoire of Alice's Magic or whatever magic she found.

[Desu_Cake]

She doesn't directly says she is not-human at all during Mystic Square, the only instance she says something close to "Im-not-human" is during Reimu's Main Scenario and Marisa's Extra Scenario:

And the one in Reimu's scenario is somewhat liberally translated. It's something more like "For a human to come here, you'd better be prepared!!"(prepared to fight)

And I only pull out the unreliability thing in regards to Alice because game-canon says the exact opposite of what she claims. Especially since PCB outright states that Mystic Square IS canon because Alice remembers Reimu [While Reimu has forgotten her or doesn't recognize her due to the redesign]; meaning Akyu is incorrect about Alice being 'human' at any point. Akyu is in direct conflict with game canon in this case.

Why does "Alice was in Makai" rule out "Alice was a human at one point"?
There's nothing to say that Alice  wasn't a human who became a youkai magician before the events of Mystic Square.

[Raikaria]

Why does "Alice was in Makai" rule out "Alice was a human at one point"?
There's nothing to say that Alice  wasn't a human who became a youkai magician before the events of Mystic Square.

Unless Shinki; goddess of a totally different dimension; specifically created an exact replicate species of humanity; Alice was never human. Considering Makai literaly translates to 'Demon World' this is very, very highly unlikely. As the name suggests; the inhabitants are demons. Youkai also translates to 'mystic apparition'; and in the Touhou world reaches anything supernatural/otherworldly. Which a demon from the demon world would fall under. It is possible that she could have; of course; through Byakuren; but this is diving into Wild Mass Guessing territory.

Shinki stated everything in Makai was her creation; which extends to Alice. This makes it incredibly unlikely that Alice ever was human. Considering there is nothing in the games to contradict this; and the games suggest MS is still canon; unless you take Akyu's word over game canon; there is nothing to suggest Alice ever was a human.

The evidence that Alice was never human is from Mystic Square. You can make the argument 'Byakuren wasn't made by Shinki but was in Makai at the time' but neither the protagonists; the player; or probobly even ZUN were aware Byakuren would ever exist at that point,

[R.P.]

Unless Shinki; goddess of a totally different dimension; specifically created an exact replicate species of humanity; Alice was never human. Considering Makai literaly translates to 'Demon World' this is very, very highly unlikely. As the name suggests; the inhabitants are demons. Youkai also translates to 'mystic apparition'; and in the Touhou world reaches anything supernatural/otherworldly. Which a demon from the demon world would fall under. It is possible that she could have; of course; through Byakuren; but this is diving into Wild Mass Guessing territory.

Shinki stated everything in Makai was her creation; which extends to Alice. This makes it incredibly unlikely that Alice ever was human. Considering there is nothing in the games to contradict this; and the games suggest MS is still canon; unless you take Akyu's word over game canon; there is nothing to suggest Alice ever was a human.

The evidence that Alice was never human is from Mystic Square. You can make the argument 'Byakuren wasn't made by Shinki but was in Makai at the time' but neither the protagonists; the player; or probobly even ZUN were aware Byakuren would ever exist at that point,

Alice can still have moved into the makai after it's creation and that doesn't make her a Shinki creation and in plus when Shinki said that all in Makai was an her creation she was probrably speaking in general, so your arguments are invalid (always dreamed to say that)

[Raikaria]

I guess I have to pull out game quotes:

Reimu scenario:

Alice: A human like you coming here probably means that you're prepared to face us!!

Saying 'A human like you' means Alice is not human at this point. She also says 'to face us' meaning she is an inhabitant of Makai. It is also worth noting Stage 3 is outright called Devil's World.

Also Alice is very defensive of Makai. In all four scenarios she appears stating 'You've gone far enough!'

Alice [Marisa Extra]: This is magic that a human like you would never be able to master.

Again; Alice is not human.

Shinki [Yuuka Senario]: Are you making light of Makai? I'll have you know I made everything here.

Sorry; but it's blatently obvious that:

A: Alice is native to Makai.
B: Alice is not human during the events of Mystic Square; which is before she entered Gensokyo; and thus the dimension where there are humans
C: Alice is pretty hostile to and looks down upon humans.
D: Shinki created everything in Makai; which would include Alice. It seems odd that after fighting Alice Shinki would claim she created everything in Makai; and thus everyone Yuuka had fought; to Yuuka.

Shinki also suggests she is fully aware of everything happening in Makai multiple times; from 'knowing Reimu would come' to knowing Marisa had been 'A little too violent to be sightseeing' and that Yuuka has been going 'A little far' with her 'games'. Which means she would be aware of Alice's defeat.

[R.P.]

I guess I have to pull out game quotes:

Reimu scenario:

Alice: A human like you coming here probably means that you're prepared to face us!!

Saying 'A human like you' means Alice is not human at this point. She also says 'to face us' meaning she is an inhabitant of Makai. It is also worth noting Stage 3 is outright called Devil's World.

Also Alice is very defensive of Makai. In all four scenarios she appears stating 'You've gone far enough!'

Alice [Marisa Extra]: This is magic that a human like you would never be able to master.

Again; Alice is not human.

Shinki [Yuuka Senario]: Are you making light of Makai? I'll have you know I made everything here.

Sorry; but it's blatently obvious that:

A: Alice is native to Makai.
B: Alice is not human during the events of Mystic Square; which is before she entered Gensokyo; and thus the dimension where there are humans
C: Alice is pretty hostile to and looks down upon humans.
D: Shinki created everything in Makai; which would include Alice. It seems odd that after fighting Alice Shinki would claim she created everything in Makai; and thus everyone Yuuka had fought; to Yuuka.

Shinki also suggests she is fully aware of everything happening in Makai multiple times; from 'knowing Reimu would come' to knowing Marisa had been 'A little too violent to be sightseeing' and that Yuuka has been going 'A little far' with her 'games'. Which means she would be aware of Alice's defeat.

I already said that Alice wasn't a human anymore in mystic square but i think that she become a youkai before MS and after she moved to Makai (that explain the "us" in Reimu's scenario) and in regard to the fact that she's looking down to human this can be explain both by the fact that after become a youkai she feel somewhat superior to human and it can be also explained by the contest when she said the two lines: in Reimu's scenario she was simply wonder if she as an human was ready to fight against the Makai's inabithants and in Marisa extra stage she only said that a human can't master the magic of her grimoire and her has a youkai can,in all this cases she is not really looking down at humans she is rightfully doubtfull that Reimu can beat the inabithants of Makai because a human normally can't (but she if you notice she didn't dismiss the possibility because her herself was one of the few human able to fight back them before become a youkai herself),in Marisa's extra she simply say to her that the magic of her grimoire is impossible to be mastered by a human but she is not really looking down at her she only said a fact

[CyberAngel]

You know what? Screw it. I'm sick of seeing "PC-98 fans" that lock themselves up in the world of their own headcanon, and who lack even the basic concepts of logic and respect, not even considering the possibility of things being different and not allowing other people to have their own theories. Way to waste all my attempts to understand PC-98 games and their fans. I'm done with it, it's a mess impossible to make sense of. So for all I care, PC-98 games didn't happen in current canon, and that's it. I'm no longer following this or any similar topics.

(Sorry for a bit of a personal rant, it's more of a note-to-self thing.)

[Desu_Cake]

Alice: A human like you coming here probably means that you're prepared to face us!!

Saying 'A human like you' means Alice is not human at this point. She also says 'to face us' meaning she is an inhabitant of Makai. It is also worth noting Stage 3 is outright called Devil's World.

Making emphatic statements based on mistranslations doesn't really help your case, you know. Especially when the fact that they're mistranslations had just been pointed out.

You know what? Screw it. I'm sick of seeing "PC-98 fans" that lock themselves up in the world of their own headcanon, and who lack even the basic concepts of logic and respect, not even considering the possibility of things being different and not allowing other people to have their own theories. Way to waste all my attempts to understand PC-98 games and their fans. I'm done with it, it's a mess impossible to make sense of. So for all I care, PC-98 games didn't happen in current canon, and that's it. I'm no longer following this or any similar topics.

(Sorry for a bit of a personal rant, it's more of a note-to-self thing.)

Don't blame the games for what the fans do, if I did that, I wouldn't be able to like anything.

[aListers]

You know what? Screw it. I'm sick of seeing "PC-98 fans" that lock themselves up in the world of their own headcanon, and who lack even the basic concepts of logic and respect, not even considering the possibility of things being different and not allowing other people to have their own theories. Way to waste all my attempts to understand PC-98 games and their fans. I'm done with it, it's a mess impossible to make sense of. So for all I care, PC-98 games didn't happen in current canon, and that's it. I'm no longer following this or any similar topics.

(Sorry for a bit of a personal rant, it's more of a note-to-self thing.)

To be honest, every time the debate over whever the PC-98 games are canon or not it becomes about as passionate a debate as whever god exists or not and it solves about as much as those debates do. Even when ZUN directly said "they're in the same worlds" people say it didn't and then some people ignore when right afterwards he said "but I know there are inconsistencies so look to the newer games for canon" so we all have our flaws. I believe passionately that the PC-98 games are canon but I also know that these debates should be avoided like religious ones. It's the same that people on either side refuse to change.

To answer the OP, In my opinion it's a possible theory because there isn't any real proof against it but there isn't really any proof for it either. I personally don't believe that theory and it's quite a common theory anyway so believe what you want.

[Tengukami]

You know what? Screw it. I'm sick of seeing "PC-98 fans" that lock themselves up in the world of their own headcanon

It does get frustrating for people to make huge presumptions like: "Shinki created Makai" > "Alice lives in Makai" > "Shinki made Alice", or to ignore what have already been pointed out in this thread to be mistranslations re: the "humans like you" line. No matter how many times this gets smacked down. But I don't think this is limited to PC-98 fans - I've seen all kinds of Touhou fans deliberately ignore logic or information to fit their personal "headcanons".

That said, yeah, it'd be really awesome if the people who wanna engage in this discussion about Alice at the very least not do the typing equivalent of jamming your fingers in your ears and yelling "lalalala I can't hear you."

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

I enjoy PC98 touhou, but I don't relate it to windows touhou anymore. I treat PC98 as its own universe, and windows as its own universe.

From what I could read and experience through the years, trying to make a connection between the two universes almost never goes well. So I prefer to treat them as separate from each other.

Besides, even ZUN himself told us to ignore PC98 as much as we can, and try to focus on the newest games instead. So I'll just follow the man's words.