Touhou Smash Bros Project (Development & info thread)

[Kimidori]

I'm getting pretty tired having to repeat myself:

It's not like I'm saying "If you don't like the art style, screw you"
I'm saying: "Tell me what it is about it that you don't like so I cam improve it."

And I think that you are wrong, the previously posted fan art isn't drawn in an anime style, nor is ZUN's art style anime. To suggest that an art style is dictated by the geographical location of the artist is far fetched.

Let Kimidori's post lay as a perfect example of what it means to be * not helping *

then the 80s 90s anime was not in anime style? I mean look at the link I gave you above, they are vastly different from modern moe style, how do you even define what is anime style? just because they are popular doesn't mean that they are the definitive of the anime style.

all the arist I linked above are famous Japanese anime artist, they famous in japan, they attend anime convention in japan and sold their doujin there, and they all not drawn in the popular moe style, but they all themselves claim to be anime/ manga artist, now, what are you to deny them of their loved style? the style they love to draw. what are you to define what is and what is not anime style? what are you to deny the artist own definition of anime style that they drawn in? as I said, any artist worth their salt will have their distinct variant style.

[Savory]

I'm getting pretty tired having to repeat myself:

It's not like I'm saying "If you don't like the art style, screw you"
I'm saying: "Tell me what it is about it that you don't like so I cam improve it."

This, people. Let's try to help Sai out. We can say that his style looks strange all we want, but it doesn't help if we don't go into detail about it.

And I think that you are wrong, the previously posted fan art isn't drawn in an anime style, nor is ZUN's art style anime.

While there does seem to be some western influence with some of the artists that do such a style, there's at least some kind of Eastern style involved. With Akira Banpai, for instance, his (or her?) style looks more anime since he (or she?) was trying to emulate the style of Castlevania.

[Kaitani]

This game project seems quite interesting and I'd love to try the game once it gets that far. I can't really help with the ideas on the game since I haven't played the Smash Bros games "genre" enough to know what to suggest, but since this thread seems to have turned more about talking about the "creepiness" of the models, I'll jump in to give my thoughts on the matter.

I looked at the EoSD character portrait that was linked and I would say for most part they look good. They do seem to have that cold, emotionless vibe going on which I'm not really sure how to fix. Maybe try changing their eyes, add some shadows perhaps? But as was mentioned earlier, for the child-sized characters the same face model does not work. Children have bigger heads compared to the rest of the body, and their facial measurements are a bit different as well. Flandre in particular looks creepy because she looks like a 10 year-old with an adult's face.

Hopefully this came out somewhat constructive.

[Yookie]

Imho the models and faces are nice.
I second the notion that the faces only look unsettling and weird because of that soul- and emotionless look they have in the given preview.
When looking at Tenshi and Sakuya in the op they are really nice to look at.
But yes, if anything then Flandre and Remilia should have more childlike faces. Rumia not even so much. I like her.
Maybe Cirno and Daiyousei as well, but these two also look a bit too tall to me. When comparing to UNL for example, Cirno is about a head shorter than Reimu (not saying that you need to stick to these) and fairies in general are said to have a childlike appearance, much like Remi and Flan.


Oh, and I felt obliged to do this and stole the format that has been used so far:

Yuuka Kazami

Some specific moves leave behind flower fields that slow down her opponents for as long as they stay in them and speeds up herself both in movement- and attack-speed. They vanish after a short time.
She's more of a ground based character and her aerials are weak in comparison to her attacks while on the ground.

Entrance: Steps in from behind through some flowers.
Icon: Sunflower

Aerials

    Neutral - Spins with her umbrella (think LLS stage 6). Hits in all directions, medium range, low knockback.
    Side - Stabs with her umbrella. (Breaks shields ?)
    Up - Scatters some blossoms upwards at close range. They remain in the air for a moment and can block weak projectiles.
    Down - Small kick downwards, potentially a meteor but doesn't have much knockback by itself. Deals more damage than her other aerials.

Standard Attacks

    Neutral - quick, short range 3-hit combo (Punch-Punch-Kick).
    Side - Lunges forward, carrying Yuuka a short distance.
    Up - Sweeps upwards with her umbrella in a wide angle and scatters petals around that linger for a moment and block weak projectiles, a more defensive move.
    Down - Smiles menacingly. Highly damaged opponents flinch, starts to fail when used in succession.

Smash Attacks

    Side - Wide sweep with her umbrella diagonally upwards. The sweeping is rather slow but the wind-up faster as a tradeoff. Maximum damage and knockback near the end. (meaning that it is usable to fend off enemies at close range but won't do much when used like that)
    Up - Upward lunge. Fires the target straight up, doubles as a grab when fully charged by sending out vines with the punch. Charging only increases the damage of the attack, not the knockback.
    Down - Vines sprout out of the ground a fixed distance to the left and right of her. Enemies caught are trapped in them, unable to move. When used at a ledge the vine will spawn at its bottom (or not at all if its bottomless).

Specials

    Neutral - Beauty of Nature: Spins around with projectiles spiraling outwards. This is a melee-attack in close range, the projectiles dissipate after traveling far enough.
    Side - Clouds over Moon, Wind on Flowers: Fires out a straight, thin laser that traps targets delivering multiple hits. Turns wider and becomes stronger the more damage Yuuka has taken.
    Up - Phantastic Spring Flowers: Throws flowers into the air that slowly float to the ground. They deal damage on contact without any noticeable knockback.  Should they land on the ground they create a small field of flowers.
             When performed mid-air the flowers don't go up and are more spread out to the sides, allowing Yuuka to use them as one-use platforms to jump off of.
    Down - Reflowering of Gensokyo: Creates a field of flowers at her feet. Can be charged for a bigger field. Can be charged mid-air but does nothing unless released while grounded.
                   Enemies near her during the creation become covered in petals that keep slowing them down for a while even after leaving.

Throws

    Forward - Throws the target down on the ground a low distance before her, finishes by stomping the enemy once.
    Reverse - Sends the opponent flying with a medium-high kick
    Up - Covers the opponent in flowers and throws her upwards. The flowers stick for a moment dealing residual damage.
    Down - Entangles the opponent in the same vines used in her down-smash.

Final Spell - Double Spark: Summons a clone that mirrors her movements and jumps back a fixed distance. They then both start to fire a Spark with infinite forward range each, one going upwards from the bottom, the other vice versa sweeping across the area.
Can be stopped during the startup (as in: while jumping backwards) but not once the attack has been started.

Alternate Final Word - Fragrant Nightmare: Yuuka begins to dance, causing a pink mist to appear on the ground. Enemies caught in this mist will fall asleep. At the end of Yuuka's dance, those asleep will be quickly  dragged underground by roots and spat back up for massive damage.

[Saijee]

@ Kimidori, as much as I feel you are dragging this into wildly off-topic and unapplicable territory, I do feel that you deserve my explanation.

I am of the opinion that your assessment of —the anime style— is flawed under the pretense that "anime" doesn't mean the same thing in America as it does in Japan. Much like "otaku" doesn't either:

Otaku in Japan can be essentially anybody who obsesses over something. But in America, it refers to a specific kind of geek,  a geek of the interest of Japanese comics, cartoons, games.

In the case of "anime." In the States it refers to a rather general art style mass produced in Japan that was originally inspired by Disney's characteristics. Hence why we can say that things like Mounty Oum's RWBY uses anime art, even though he is racially less Japanese then I am.

On the other hand, in Japan, "Manga" is the word for "Comic Book" and "Anime" is the word for "Animation." According to Japanese people, Batman, Spiderman, and Peanuts are Mangas, and My Little Pony, Toy Story, and Sponge Bob are "anime"

Under conditions like that, saying that they are "Japanese anime artists" doesn't seem to mean much more than "They are Illustrators geographically located in Japan."
-------------

Now if we could put away that discussion perhaps for a topic later in the future, the real point of interest in terms of THIS GAMES development is improving the art style.  So does the previous image look better on the right or left image?

I'm pretty good at taking following directions in terms of tweaks, Glass Wing was a very different game 40 days ago, but after taking into account all of the little details people were confused about, complaining about, or otherwise experiencing glitches, it winded up becoming a very polished work. The same can be said about this art direction. I as the artist have  a HYPER limited viewpoint, it's up to you to steer me in the right direction.

HERE, tell me if the changes look better or worse —AND WHY— please:
http://oi61.tinypic.com/2wr3exf.jpg

[Kimidori]

RWBY style is not even the popular in japan FFS.

if you write off those artist as not anime, you are writing off people who have their manga adapted in anime as not anime, you are writing off people who have visual novel adapted in anime as not anime, you are are writing off majority of now airing and upcoming anime as not anime because most now airing and upcoming anime have different style from 5 years ago and from other airing anime

most people here and in the western anime fandom would all call the fanart, the artist I linked as drawn in anime style.

look at these and tell me that they are all the same in style

[Savory]

Yuuka Kazami

Nice moveset. Though does Yuuka have any recovery of the sort? Phantastic Spring Flowers doesn't seem to serve as a way for Yuuka to get back onto the stage.

Also, how's this for an alternate Final Word?

Fragrant Nightmare
-Yuuka begins to dance, causing a pink mist to appear on the ground. Enemies caught in this mist will fall asleep. At the end of Yuuka's dance, lightning will strike those who are asleep for massive damage.

@Saijee, edited with a rounded face looks MUCH better.

[Evil_Nazgul0616]

I like this game idea!
Here's my contribution of ideas/suggestions for a stage and a character:

Stage: Different Sky
*Based off of SoEW's Extra Stage
*Fighters battle on a flat platform against a scrolling background made of strange purple tiles.
*Some of these tiles are stage hazards and will periodically open up to release a spray of danmaku at the combatants.
*Evil Eye Sigma occasionally appears as a "boss" stage hazard. (Like how Smash Bros. 4 is going to have "boss" characters such as Yellow Devil as attackable stage hazards.) Evil Eye Sigma will fire danmaku and lasers at the combatants and swoops from one side of the stage to the other. The fighter who deals the finishing blow to Sigma causes it to explode spectacularly and can then use the explosion as an attack against the other combatants.
*Default BGM should be The Tank Girl's Dream or some remix of it.

Character: Rika
*NOTE: Since Rika is pretty much the only character who doesn't fight using magic or natural abilities (she always fights with her constructs), I based her moveset on this fact.
Entrance: Flies in on Evil Eye Sigma and jumps off.
Icon: Wrench

Neutral Special: Danmaku Gun - Rika pulls out a weapon of her own design and fires weak danmaku projectiles from it.

Side Special: Wrench Toss - Tosses a wrench in the direction she's facing.

Up Special: Jump Jet - Rika activates jump jets of her own design that propel her upwards and damage combatants caught in the exhaust. Can be used as a recovery move.

Down Special: Trip Mine - Rika plants a charge on the ground that explodes into a small shower of danmaku when another combatant walks over it. The mine itself disappears in a few moments if nothing trips it.

Final Smash: Flower Tank - Rika summons the Flower Tank and pilots it for a short time. During this time the tank can be controlled and it behaves similarly to the Landmaster final smash from Brawl. (except instead of firing one projectile, it fires a spread of them.) Contact with the tank itself deals damage, direct hits from the projectiles cause massive knockback.

[Kaitani]

tell me if the changes look better or worse

The changed eye shape definitely makes it look better. Rounder face also makes it look more child-like, which is good. What it needs now is some way to make it look less like a doll and more like a living thing. Try using more pronounced eyelids/eyeshadows perhaps?

[Yookie]

Nice moveset. Though does Yuuka have any recovery of the sort? Phantastic Spring Flowers doesn't seem to serve as a way for Yuuka to get back onto the stage.

Also, how's this for an alternate Final Word?

Fragrant Nightmare
-Yuuka begins to dance, causing a pink mist to appear on the ground. Enemies caught in this mist will fall asleep. At the end of Yuuka's dance, lightning will strike those who are asleep for massive damage.

Yuuka doesn't need recovery as nobody is capable of knocking her off-stage. I forgot about that. :V
The flowers from the up-special could be scattered to the side-below when performed while mid-air and serve as platforms for Yuuka to jump off of. It's iffy to use but so are the recoveries Ness and Lucas have.
They would act like little springs and disappear once jumping off of them. And she could float with her umbrella. Would go nicely with this kind of recovery.

About the alternate Last Word: It's a nice idea, but maybe have enemies caught in the mist dragged underground by roots and then spat back up, dealing the damage.
Lightning doesn't really seem to fit. (I assume you meant lightning striking from the sky)

HERE, tell me if the changes look better or worse ?AND WHY? please:
http://oi61.tinypic.com/2wr3exf.jpg

Yes, with the rounder face it looks much more fitting. The eyes took up too much room before and her mouth looks less wide which is also a plus.

[Tengukami]

Kimidori, if you have no concrete constructive criticism/suggestions to offer, maybe you should exit the thread for the night.

As it is, it just looks like you're digging your heels in over something you want to have an argument about. Consider taking the evening off.

[Savory]

Nue
Entrance: Menacingly stomps out from a dark cloud
Icon: UFO

Neutral Special: Unknown Will O' Wisp
-Nue throws out a bouncing blue fireball. The fireball bounces across the ground as it travels. After three bounces, it will peter out.

Side Special: Flame Thrust
-Nue thrusts forth with her trident, cloaked in blue flames. When she strikes her target with the first blow, she will strike again with an upward blow to throw the enemy airborne.

Up Special: UFO
-Nue hitches a ride on a UFO of a varying color (red, blue or green) that rises slowly at a limited height before it disappears.

Down Special: Undefined Darkness
-A counter move where Nue covers herself with a dark cloud. If she is attacked, the cloud with dissipate and Nue will retaliate with a flaming punch.

Final Word: Rainbow Invasion
-With a flash of dark smoke, Nue vanished as the stage goes dim. Clouds loom over as UFOs begin to appear and fire at enemies. Each UFO is of a different color and behaves differently. Blue UFOs zip around firing weak homing lasers, green UFOs float over an area to fire thick lasers straight down and red UFOs fire concentrated bullets, that explode upon contact with the stage or an opponent, and quickly retreat. After the onslaught, Nue reappears on the stage.

[Saijee]

Don't worry about Kimidori, I PMed him.

Anyway, regarding the eyelid fold and eye shadow, I'll get to details like that later, right now the only modifications I'm doing are of changing the 3D model's geometry, when I get to retexturing all of the characters I'll make sure that I get to that.

For now, though are there anything otherwise that you would like to see to further improve Flandre? Here is some changes I made on Remilia:

[Colticide]

Rounded faces look so much better, I don't see children with sharp facial features normally so rounding the "child like" characters makes it look good too. As a request would it be possible to show off a one of the expressions when you show these off? I feel that maybe people might still talk about the emotionless face instead of taking that it's the base model, ya know, just to see how it looks when in action. 

Other then that... I'm not sure if Remilia's legs are either too large or what not. When I compare them to her arms they are bigger.

[Prime32]

The changed eye shape definitely makes it look better. Rounder face also makes it look more child-like, which is good. What it needs now is some way to make it look less like a doll and more like a living thing. Try using more pronounced eyelids/eyeshadows perhaps?

I tried adding some slight blush to the cheeks, and shading the top of the irises in black. On one side I also extended the eyelash and added a small eyelid wrinkle.

Granted, Flandre is one of the characters least likely to have a healthy complexion, and there's a valid argument to be had for making her eyes look deliberately weird or even slitted. :V But I figure any added detail to the eyes would help - if not this kind of shading then a golden starbust around the pupil could work.

[Saijee]

Is that how the wild Flandre multiplies? (Looking at that in process mitosis with the arm)

Could I ask you to try and get that eye texture made to fit this texture:


(You don't have to follow any guidelines other than the radius of the big circle)

Because that would be just swimmingly.

[Soul Devour]

Is that one on the right the 'updated' one? I really like it, personally. Like, I think it looks awesome and I personally think the adjustments to the eyes, specifically the coloring of the pupils/iris/whatever it's called, that's really helping the facial model.

Other then that... I'm not sure if Remilia's legs are either too large or what not. When I compare them to her arms they are bigger.

Yeah...her legs seem kinda...fat? It's possible it's the angle of the model and it looks fine from other angles but she seems to have some hefty legs.

[Prime32]

Could I ask you to try and get that eye texture made to fit this texture:

Something like this I guess?

[Saijee]

This is what happens when I am given solid constructive crit:

So far this is what it looks like. As said before, when I get to retexturing, eye lid line and eye shadow will be added acordingly, apart from that, anything else for flan?

[Prime32]

Hm, didn't realise the edge of the pupil would be that visible. This might be an improvement:

[Saijee]

I'll let you be the judge of that:


Also how is this for Remilia? Legs are a bit thinner

Oh cirno too:
Click here for full
http://oi60.tinypic.com/30lp9g5.jpg
otherwise:

Rumia has less of an alteration.

[Colticide]

The legs do look better for Remi, but I do see the same things for Cirno, the calf muscle seems a bit to large for child characters, I looked at the others from before and they look fine for teen - adult characters.

Example:

Also the circled area, is that from the texture being stretched?

[Saijee]

I'll see what I can do, But don't worry about the texture streach, like I said before the models are going to be re UV mapped and re textured.

Here is them all side by side for those of you wondering about height comparisons.

[Savory]

I'd imagine them all being about the same height.

[Saijee]

That was an option, but I decided to go another way. They are all, still however, shorter then Marisa and Reimu.

[Savory]

That was an option, but I decided to go another way. They are all, still however, shorter then Marisa and Reimu.

Well yeah, but I never really imagined Cirno and Rumia being any taller than Remilia. In fact I think Cirno is slightly shorter than Remilia. Though with that said, we're gonna have to figure out character sizes eventually.

[Colticide]

Then that would mean that Flandre is pretty short. Well first maybe we ought to figure out what to finish first, like a short time goal. Since your the one all the hard work what do you want to finish up first Saijee?

[Prime32]

Well yeah, but I never really imagined Cirno and Rumia being any taller than Remilia. In fact I think Cirno is slightly shorter than Remilia. Though with that said, we're gonna have to figure out character sizes eventually.

Pretty sure that Cirno was smaller than Remilia in the fighters (and that fairies in general are smaller than anyone who isn't Sukuna), though her effective height was a little higher since she was always floating. While Flandre being shorter than Remi is one thing, right now the height difference between them seems a bit much.

[game2011]

Okay, want an example of better-looking eyes?  Make them look like the ones found on realistic SSB characters, like these:

[Saijee]

I have seen the heights that you are talking about before. But I've also seen a bunch of other takes on the heights of Touhou characters.  Yes in the fighting games Cirno is miniature, but I feel like that's just another interpretation, just as good as anybody else's really. I'm not the only one who seperated the heights of the Scarlets, and I'm not the only one who imagined Cirno to be taller then them. I will grant you that it is more popular for them to be depicted at more similar heights, but it's really all up to interpretation. For example:



FYI, I am not basing the heights off of Touhouvania, I just remember that when I played that game Cirno was definably taller then Remilia, and using that as an example of artistically depicting the less popular imagination has been successfully done before.

@ Colticide, I'm pretty sure that my current goal right now is to, at least fix all of the faces of the TH models I have on hand currently, it's a good way to make sure that I'll be able to make the games playable characters not ugly.  And that's important right? I guess I'm not there yet , maybe, seeing as how Game2011 seems to have something to say.

@ Game2011, Where have you been? As you can see from the images above, I'm working on it. Now I'm not going to say that I think my models are any where near as good as Smash Bros Wii U, but that is just now how this works, have you even been keeping up with the development of the graphics for this game? :

You are giving me a picture and say "do this." The thing is I as an artist have a very limited and highly biased point of view regarding my depictions. You as a viewer on the other hand have a much different perspective on things.

I could say "I think my models' faces are looking pretty close to SSBU" (I'm not, but I could) and you could respond to that "No they don't, yours look much worse"

But that would be counterproductive and I still wouldn't know what you want.

If that is where you want me to end up, tell me where to go from where I stand right now. Prime32 has been a perfect example of the how to get me to do what you want me to do.