Author Topic: An important passage about Kaguya, redacted from Cage in Lunatic Runagate  (Read 5001 times)

cuc

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Because how much material there is to go through, and how most of them are intentionally vague or weird, researching the Eternal Night/Ephemeral Moon story requires considerable time. All I can do now is to provide a few snippets.


When I first came to this forum, I argued that Kaguya's IN profile has not explicitly stated she had taken the Hourai elixir.

Kaguya's profile said:
Quote
興味本位で永琳に、禁断の秘薬である蓬莱の薬を作らせてしまい、それに手を出してしまったのだ。

To avoid going into linguistic details, the last part of the sentence used an ambiguous expression それに手を出す, literally "she put out her hand to this". Judged on its own, it may be understood to be "has taken part in the making of elixir" or "has taken the elixir". But the way the whole sentence is phrased leaves less doubt that first Eirin had completed the elixir, then Kaguya had taken it.

Example translation:
Quote
Out of curiosity, Kaguya had Eirin made the Hourai Elixir, a secret forbidden medicine, which she then consumed.

This fact casts doubts on some of my posts re: whether Kaguya's power over eternity is inborn, but not other things I've pointed out that are different between IN and SSiB/CiLR.



When CiLR ended serialization and was collected into a book, no significant editing changes were made, except for one removed passage in the first chapter. The following part is replaced by one short paragraph that summarizes Kaguya's banishment in 4 sentences.

Original Japanese:
Quote
些細なミスとは、蓬莱の薬、つまり不老不死の薬を輝夜に渡してしまった事である。輝夜は他愛もない好奇心から私に不老不死の薬を求めた。私は不老不死の薬と言えば蓬莱の薬という物がある、と教え、その薬を作ってみせた。

月の民が蓬莱の薬を持つ事は別に不思譲な事ではない。主に地上の権力者を試したり、新たな争乱を起こす為に人間に与える為である。

〝人間がこの薬を飲めば、その躰は朽ちる事なく、未来永劫生き長らえるでしょう。ですが、何人たりとも決して飲んではいけません

〝何で飲んでばいけないの?〟

〝人間が飲むと永遠に苦しみます。死ぬ事も許されず、仙人になる事も出来ず、人間のまま人間と暮らせなくなります。この薬は月の民が地上の人間を試す為に存在するのです〟

〝では、もし、この薬を月の民が飲むとどうなるの?〟

〝もし、この薬を穢れ無き月の民が飲むと??〟

〝飲むと?〟

〝不老不死になると同時に、不老不死という誘惑に負けた事で人間と同様の穢れが生まれ、二度と月の都では暮らせなくなるでしょう〟

私が警告した甲斐無く、輝夜は蓬莱の薬を飲み不考不死となった。それと同時に、月の都から追放された。

輝夜は何かと地上の人間の話を好んで聞き、自分からもよく話す子だった。月の民から見た地上は、刹那的な快楽の渦巻く穢れた場所である。それが輝夜の眼には魅力的に映っていたのかも知れない。蓬莱の薬も、最初から自分で飲む為に私に作らせたのだろう。

Note that the quotes in the passage are 〝〟 rather than 「」, the latter being the commonly used quotation marks in printed Japanese text. In CiLR, the former type of quotes are used only for lines spoken in recollections of the past, and basically can only be seen in two places, this removed passage and Mokou's recollection in Chapter 4.

Attempt at English translation, based on the wiki's old translation by Rukaroa, with changes and corrections by me:
Quote
That minor error was to give the Hourai Elixir, that is, the elixir of immortality and eternal youth, to Kaguya. Kaguya asked me for the elixir of immortality out of childish, playful curiosity. I told her that the elixir of immortality is what's called the Hourai Elixir, and showed her its making.

That the People of the Moon would have the Hourai Elixir isn't so unusual in itself. It was primarily given to those who are in power on Earth to test them, or to start new conflicts.

"If humans drink this medicine, their bodies will never deteriorate, and they will live on forever. Yet, no one must ever drink it."

"Why can't they?"

"If humans drink it, they will be in pain for all eternity. Neither allowed to die, nor possible to become sennin [hermits], they will no longer be able to live among their own kind as humans. This medicine exists as a trial for humans, administered by the People of the Moon."

"Then, what would happen if the People of the Moon drank it?"

"If drunk by the People of the Moon who are without any uncleanliness, then..."

"Then?"

"At the same time they become immortal, having succumbed to the temptation of eternal youth, the same uncleanliness will arise from them as from humans. I think they would be unable to continue living in the Lunar Capital."

But my warnings went unheeded, and Kaguya drank the Hourai Elixir and became immortal. And so, she was expelled from the Lunar Capital.

As a child, Kaguya had loved to listen to stories about humans on the Earth, and would often tell them herself. To the People of the Moon, the Earth was a place tainted by the whirlwinds of brief, fleeting pleasures. Perhaps that made it more attractive to her - I can't say. From the very beginning, she probably had me make the Hourai Elixir so she could drink it herself.

Note:
I translated 月の民 as "the People of the Moon", as this is the more dignified term, and how Lunarians would refer to themselves, as opposed to 月人 "Lunarians", which in Touhou is similar to 火星人 "Martians", treating them as aliens. I also made an attempt here to use "uncleanliness" rather than "impurity" to translate the Shinto concept of 穢れ kegare. Unfortunately the word "defilement" is already taken, as a common way to translate the Buddhist concept of klesha.

Because the passage has been removed, its canonicity is now in doubt. However, it provided extremely significant characterization for Kaguya, and removing it breaks the pacing of Chapter 1, making this chapter feel dry and hollow.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 03:58:31 PM by cuc »
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CyberAngel

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Hm, the removed passage conflicts with the whole point of IN. If Kaguya couldn't live on the Moon because drinking elixir made her as "unclean" as humans, then there would be no point in Lunarians wanting to take her back, which is the reason behind the fake moon and, subsequently, IN. Never mind, I've reread the chapter and this is addressed later.

This fact invalidates some of my posts re: whether Kaguya's power over eternity is inborn

Does it really? Wasn't Kaguya's power over eternity needed to make the elixir in the first place?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 02:38:27 PM by C.Angel »

cuc

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Does it really? Wasn't Kaguya's power over eternity needed to make the elixir in the first place?
This was my argument, which I supported with the mistranslation explained in the first. With the mistranslation clarified, this is still a high possibility - I think the purpose of the IN spell card "Hourai Elixir" is to show us that Eirin needs Kaguya's power to make the elixir. But it's no longer guaranteed to be true.

Quote
Hm, the removed passage conflicts with the whole point of IN. If Kaguya couldn't live on the Moon because drinking elixir made her as "unclean" as humans, then there would be no point in Lunarians wanting to take her back, which is the reason behind the fake moon and, subsequently, IN.
Not exactly. In IN, the Lunarians only wanted to take back Reisen for their supposed final stand against the Earth. This point has been completely overridden in CiLR: the Lunarians are not interested in fighting a war against the Earth, and unlike IN stated, they have never fought any battle with the Earth's space expeditions at all. No new explanation has been given about why IN happened.

What really matters is a different retcon. Even without this passage, the remaining text of CiLR still differs from IN on how the Moon sees Kaguya.

Her IN profile says the Moon saw Kaguya had done serving her terms on earth (this is omitted by the current English translation), and would take her back. This is consistent with Tale of the Bamboo Cutter up until the part where Eirin killed the Lunarian messenger and run with Kaguya. On the other hand, in CiLR, Kaguya is said to be a source of infinite kegare; the Lunarians somehow wanted to get her back (for examination or a temporary retrial?), but the reason is not mentioned by Eirin, and it sounds like the Lunarians would not want her to stay on the Moon.

Personally, I think by removing this passage, ZUN had left open the possibility that "Kaguya is a source of infinite kegare" is a lie, expressly made as an excuse to keep Kaguya, an extremely powerful young Lunarian, from setting foot on the Moon forever. It's Lunarian politics.

Indeed, the first chapter of CiLR also mentioned that Kaguya's Udonge tree had not blossomed. What would cause the tree to blossom? Approximity to kegare. Is Kaguya genuinely unclean?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 03:16:52 PM by cuc »
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Kaizaki

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Re: An important passage about Kaguya, redacted from Cage in Lunatic Runagate
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2014, 07:00:06 PM »
I found the following passage in the first translation of Kaguya's chapter in CiLR:
Quote
I didn't hesitate to make my debut in the social spotlight on the Earth, so before long the old couple's house was inundated with people's expressions of thanks and affection. It must have been hard on them.
In a later revision, this has been changed to:
Quote
I tried to avoid becoming the center of attention on Earth, and before long I feelings of love and gratitude began to emerge towards the old couple in their efforts to help shelter me.

It is possible that this passage was initially mistranslated, but the first attempt was made by Rukaroa, the same person who included the now-redacted passage in the first chapter. According to their revision histories, the first and second chapters' initial translations were uploaded on 9 and 25 December 2007, respectively---a mere 16 days apart. It is likely that the translator used the same source material for both, i.e., their serialised and unedited forms. (Unfortunately, I do not have the original Japanese text in hand, and my knowledge of the language is too basic to be of help. Suffice to say, my argument is only as good as my source.)



The edit is not as significant as the one found in Eirin's chapter, but it is relevant in that it changes how Kaguya is portrayed. It is interesting that ZUN's revision affects her characterisation as being curious with the Earth. For instance, I agree that he made it possible that Kaguya remained clean, but if that was his only intention, he could have not removed the last paragraph in the first passage and altered the one above (if he did). Would one not enthusiastically interact with beings one has been fascinated with for so long? Seeing as he deleted the former, he probably saw it fit to modify the latter as well.

In fact, there is only one mention of Kaguya's interest in CiLR's current form: when she was pondering on her lack of duties, she admitted that it---her interest---was caused by her boredom. Even Eirin no longer mentions how she was asked "out of childish, playful curiosity." (Interestingly, in Rukaroa's revision, Kaguya had a lack of enthusiasm and motivation instead of duties, and her fascination is not caused by her boredom but is a separate thing. Although, I admit that those could be issues with translation and not legitimate changes.)

We therefore have two versions of her character:
  • The edited version who 1) had a (passing?) fancy with the Earth, 2) asked for and drank the Hourai Elixir for unknown reasons, and 3) came to love the planet during her exile and chose to stay in the end; and
  • The unedited one who 1) had a distinct attraction to her fairytale world, 2) had strong and clear motivations to ask for and drink the Elixir, and 3) enjoyed her time in prison to a degree and probably had no intention to return in the beginning.

As mentioned in the first post, it is unclear how to best treat the passage regarding Kaguya's personality. Therefore, it is unknown if the current one---with details omitted---is the same as the other, or a different person entirely.

(A fairytale prison... a Cinderella cage? "The Japanese Cinderella's hidden cage is such that no matter how hard you try, you cannot force the princess out," as ZUN put it. With her pure and royal birth, and her liking of the lowly and filthy Earth, I can understand why she is called a lunatic.)



This was my argument, which I supported with the mistranslation explained in the first. With the mistranslation clarified, this is still a high possibility - I think the purpose of the IN spell card "Hourai Elixir" is to show us that Eirin needs Kaguya's power to make the elixir. But it's no longer guaranteed to be true.
It is difficult to say for certain with the changes made in CiLR. The redacted passage makes it seem that it does not: Eirin explained what the Elixir was to the princess, and showed her how it was made, not long before Kaguya consumed it. It further states that the Moon had been using it to test powerful people on the Earth, implying that it had already been made a few times in the past. It is possible that, similar to how there are different means of travelling between the Moon and the Earth, there is an alternative method of creating the Elixir which does not require the princess's power. However, the canonicity of the removed passage is uncertain, as pointed out.

Her IN profile says the Moon saw Kaguya had done serving her terms on earth (this is omitted by the current English translation), and would take her back. This is consistent with Tale of the Bamboo Cutter up until the part where Eirin killed the Lunarian messenger and run with Kaguya. On the other hand, in CiLR, Kaguya is said to be a source of infinite kegare; the Lunarians somehow wanted to get her back (for examination or a temporary retrial?), but the reason is not mentioned by Eirin, and it sounds like the Lunarians would not want her to stay on the Moon.

Personally, I think by removing this passage, ZUN had left open the possibility that "Kaguya is a source of infinite kegare" is a lie, expressly made as an excuse to keep Kaguya, an extremely powerful young Lunarian, from setting foot on the Moon forever. It's Lunarian politics.

Indeed, the first chapter of CiLR also mentioned that Kaguya's Udonge tree had not blossomed. What would cause the tree to blossom? Approximity to kegare. Is Kaguya genuinely unclean?
Whether Kaguya is tainted or not is a good question. Her chapter hints at her proximity to the udonge bonsai: she keeps it in her room, takes care of it everyday, and even held it in her hands. It has been years since she removed the spell of eternity over Eientei, and changes brought by the Earth's impurity have occured, and yet the bonsai has yet to blossom. Eirin herself noticed.

Kaguya believes that the plant is still full of eternity and will blossom "soon", and even mentions how her outlook has changed thanks to impurity. But this chapter, as with BAiJR and the rest of CiLR, is written from the character's perspective, and is therefore clouded with subjectivity. She may have mistaken her change in viewpoint as being caused by impurity instead of personal growth, and may have unknowingly delayed the udonge from blooming sooner. Perhaps her own control over eternity serves as protection against the impure?

As for the Lunarians' unspecified reason for taking the princess back, I think Touhou's Chang'e provides some clues. Despite common elements of her story, she is only mentioned thrice in the whole of the Ephemeral Moon Vignette: twice in SSiB and once in CiLR, when
  • Eirin said that the name belongs to a real person on the Moon; (SSiB)
  • Eirin tested Reisen II by speaking her name, signifying that Chang'e is a Lunarian; (SSiB) and
  • Reisen II talked about the rabbits' pounding as atonement for her sin, which is implied to be the consumption of the Hourai Elixir (giving credence to the theory that it can be made without the power of eternity). (CiLR)

Drawing similarities between Chang'e and Kaguya, we have two native Lunarians who drank the forbidden medicine and descended to the Earth, but this is where their difference begins. When Eirin said in SSiB that the former is real, she also mentioned that she is a prisoner of the Moon till present. Does a similar fate await the princess? If one becomes unable to live in the Lunar Capital, why take them back? If one is already banished, why have them return? The Lunarians are intent on retrieving them, risking impurity---if immortals indeed are---at their arrest, and Eirin knows why.

If drinking the Elixir truly causes one to become unclean, is it not wise to contain them, ensuring they cannot return and further defile the pure land? In either case, it is better to have a potential enemy under lock and key than to risk retaliation.

I agree that Lunarian politics come into play, and that the possible lie of impurity is used to justify punishment. The authorities seem to also employ a form of slave labour control over the moon rabbits through their pounding. There is a maxim that goes, "idle hands breed mischief."



What do you think? (Uh... no rush. :P)

Also, thank you for bringing up this topic! It is nice to know another with an interest in researching the Ephemeral and Eternal Moon Vignettes. :)

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Re: An important passage about Kaguya, redacted from Cage in Lunatic Runagate
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2014, 03:11:17 AM »
Whether Kaguya is tainted or not is a good question. Her chapter hints at her proximity to the udonge bonsai: she keeps it in her room, takes care of it everyday, and even held it in her hands. It has been years since she removed the spell of eternity over Eientei, and changes brought by the Earth's impurity have occured, and yet the bonsai has yet to blossom. Eirin herself noticed.

Kaguya believes that the plant is still full of eternity and will blossom "soon", and even mentions how her outlook has changed thanks to impurity. But this chapter, as with BAiJR and the rest of CiLR, is written from the character's perspective, and is therefore clouded with subjectivity. She may have mistaken her change in viewpoint as being caused by impurity instead of personal growth, and may have unknowingly delayed the udonge from blooming sooner. Perhaps her own control over eternity serves as protection against the impure?
I came to this conclusion as well, pretty early on. The mention that the udonge serves as a detection mechanism on the Moon also makes it seem as though it should bloom very quickly, which to me seems like a pretty big hint. It seems more likely and overall a pretty ZUN-like thing to have Kaguya herself say that she has become tainted with kegare and is now waiting for the bonsai to bloom, superficially creating the impression that it was only her power over eternity that has kept the bonsai from blooming, when what's actually the case is that Kaguya is passively influencing the tree to remain clean.

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cuc

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Re: An important passage about Kaguya, redacted from Cage in Lunatic Runagate
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2014, 03:05:56 PM »
Ah, this thread again. I've learnt a thing or two since making it, and would do a few things differently now. I'm still only a newbie to the Japanese language, and still have much to learn.
I found the following passage in the first translation of Kaguya's chapter in CiLR:In a later revision, this has been changed to:
It is possible that this passage was initially mistranslated
I compared this passage. It was unchanged from serialization to release, and the earlier translation was indeed mistranslated. This part of the story is actually faithful to Tale of the Bamboo Cutter, up until the part where Eirin killed the moon messagers.

>Chang'e having a Lunarian name

I don't think it means anything, because the Lunarians could very well give her a Lunarian name only they can use.

>Researching the moon story

Frankly, I think this is ZUN's masterpiece, and would be glad to see more people pondering it.

Does anyone know what exactly the "two kinds of homesickness" are? I'd like to hear your thoughts.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 05:01:10 PM by cuc »
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Re: An important passage about Kaguya, redacted from Cage in Lunatic Runagate
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2014, 06:54:55 PM »
One is Reimu's, who was tired of doing performances on the moon and wanted to go back to Gensokyo. The other is Eirin's. Yukari used an excuse that she must be homesick to explain why she was giving her sake from the moon to drink. (Also, after rereading the chapter recently, I got a feeling that, in that final moment of narration, Eirin probably felt a strong desire to go back to Eientei, hide under a blanket and hug a pillow. So Eirin gets the second one either way.)

Re: An important passage about Kaguya, redacted from Cage in Lunatic Runagate
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2014, 11:07:18 PM »
At the end of Cage in Lunatic Runagate, I don't think Eirin is afraid of Yukari as much as afraid that even with her best plans, it can fail. So, you can say Yukari successfully got Eirin to fear the unknown, which youkai are good at.
Yukari stealing the sake should have been impossible, and Eirin still doesn't know how Yukari did it. Neither Yukari nor Yuyuko will likely tell Eirin what happened.

Quote
Does anyone know what exactly the "two kinds of homesickness" are? I'd like to hear your thoughts.

No, not really. I don't quite understand under what context you are trying to use this in.

Kaizaki

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Re: An important passage about Kaguya, redacted from Cage in Lunatic Runagate
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2014, 08:46:17 AM »
> Mistranslation
I see, I'm glad that's cleared up.

> Lunarian Chang'e?
That's a good point. I supposed she was, because the Lunarians never appeared to have named non-inhabitants, but that's possible too.

> Kinds of homesickness
I haven't delved deeper into the final chapters of CiLR yet, so I'll just add to the ones already given:
Reimu's - I got the impression that the time she spent in the Lunar Capital was akin to a holiday, despite the performances she had to do. I think her homesickness is the kind where novelty already wore off and you'd much rather be back with your routines and activities.
Eirin's - I think hers is borne from insecurity at having been in the dark to an uncomfortable degree (and at having been bested to boot). Eirin's is possibly not 'homesickness' per se, but a longing for the 'omniscience' she once had.

I'll post further thoughts once I've finished rereading.

> ZUN's masterpiece
I share the same sentiment.

What would you do differently now that you've learnt a few things?

Quote
No, not really. I don't quite understand under what context you are trying to use this in.
It refers to the last chapter of CiLR, which has that title.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 09:18:09 AM by Kaizaki »

cuc

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Re: An important passage about Kaguya, redacted from Cage in Lunatic Runagate
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2014, 02:08:29 PM »
What would you do differently now that you've learnt a few things?
That was me repeating a cliche expression. I've had a little more practice translating Japanese since then, but I don't see any big issues in the translations here. Also "uncleanliness" is an existing and valid translation of kegare.

=============

Warning: super dense info summary below on a word mentioned once in CiLR Chapter 2. 'Cause I got no time to write elaborate explanations.

A post I wrote from two years ago, about Yuyuko's IaMP ending, which explained what "wabi" and "sabi" means in general, and what they may mean in Touhou's metaphysics.

IaMP was made around the same time as IN. In IN, Reimu has the spell cards "Fantasy Seal -Sabi-" and "Fantasy Seal -Wabi-", which, if you know these words, really stand out from her spell cards. And then, Yuyuko and Kaguya had a cryptic exchange.

Here, Yuyuko compared Kaguya's power to making a flawed pearl whole again, by turning it around. I think she either meant that you can turn the pearl (and look at it from a different angle), or if you keep spinning the pearl, the flaw would become invisible - both readings are grammatically acceptable. Kaguya replied:
Quote
Kaguya: Yes, this is what eternity is. A world of wabi.

--------------

In CiLR Chapter 2, Kaguya said this about the udonge plant (somewhat literal translation):
Quote
It may be poor-looking, but one can sense "sabi" (as in "wabi-sabi") from the plant.
And went on to describe how the plant would bear jewels when nourished by kegare.

Now I'm not entirely confident about this, because the expression 感じさせる is mostly used to mean what feelings one can get from something, like "this picture makes me feel sad". However, I think what Kaguya might be saying here is that the udonge plant can be used to detect sabi since it would bear jewels, thus linking sabi with kegare. I might be wrong.

Less significantly, in Chapter 3, Toyohime also made an offhand mention about the presence of wabi in Lunar Capital:
Quote
...a climate that combines the warmth of spring, the liveliness of summer, the plenty of autumn and the wabishisa of winter from year-round.
Wabishisa, translated as "loneliness" in the wiki, here refers to the stern, withered beauty of winter.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 02:49:13 PM by cuc »
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Re: An important passage about Kaguya, redacted from Cage in Lunatic Runagate
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2014, 10:59:48 PM »
Maybe the "two kinds of homesickness" refer to wabi and sabi; to miss those states of a place you once were?

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: An important passage about Kaguya, redacted from Cage in Lunatic Runagate
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2014, 12:35:00 AM »
I was re-reading CoLA recently and came across this passage, printed earlier in the same year as IN.
Quote
「魔理沙のどこに日本人の魂があるってのよ。侘わび寂さびって何だか判る?」
「それは、霊夢の方が似合わない気もするぜ」
「もちろん、私には判らないわ。」
Quote
?And what part of you has a Japanese soul, Marisa? Do you even know what 'Wabi-sabi' is??
?I don't think ya know yerself, Reimu.?
 ?Of course I don't.?

cuc

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Re: An important passage about Kaguya, redacted from Cage in Lunatic Runagate
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2014, 01:54:21 PM »
Thanks for pointing out this!

ZUN indeed would often put a lot of what was on his mind at the time into CoLA. The chapter about youkai's constellations, which essentially established Yukari as one of the greatest youkai who ever lived, was also written during SSiB's serialization, where Yukari played the role of Gensokyo's guardian.
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