Author Topic: Touhou Gameplay Help Thread #7 - Not just for spell card help after all  (Read 198146 times)

Karisa

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Ask your gameplay questions here!

The "Spell Card Help" thread has always been for any sort of gameplay questions for as long as I've been here, but a recent discussion came up about how the title was misleading. Since there don't seem to be any objections, I've decided to go ahead and create the next thread early, with a more accurate title.

Previous thread: http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,14197.0.html

commandercool

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I was going to start a thread about this, but I'll just stick it here and save space.

I've been finding lately that when I sit down to play Touhou my session ends up getting cut short by my inability to deal with the difficulty shift that inevitably happens at some point in every game. Usually I'm barely paying attention through the first couple of stages, then because I'm not really focused on what I'm doing I die to something stupid at the end of stage 2 or in stage 3. I'm aware of this problem, but I can't really focus on the early stages even if I try, especially after a couple of unsuccessful attempts.

How do you deal with this, and do you have any advice on how I should deal with it? Is this even a problem other people have? I swear I have died to Sekibanki's last couple of spells more than anything else in DDC because my attention drifts, and this has been causing me to play even less lately than I usually do. I wish I could play the first couple of stages on Lunatic just so I have to pay attention, then scale back to Hard or Normal once things get appropriately difficult.
I made a PADHerder. It's probably out of date though.

Yookie

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I think I know what you mean and had that myself in some form.
For me there are two things that solved this which would be to either set yourself an artificial difficulty increase for the first couple of stages like going for a high score which usually involves taking risks, planning a route etc. . That should keep you on your toes.
Or - this may seem really weird now - you could have something on that would actually be diverting your attention like a movie or such.
Strangely enough it helps me to have something to ignore to get a better focus on what I'm doing.

Otherwise there would only be left to really go up in the difficulty or switch up the game every so often. (Or play Great Fairy Wars, that one only has 3 stages. :V)
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 04:43:16 PM by Yookie »

commandercool

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Maybe this is a problem of my not switching up games that often. Probably 95% of my Touhou gameplay is Imperishable Night. I think that might be hurting my game in a few ways at this point. I have noticed this problem pretty much regardless of game, but I think it's the worst with IN.

Having something on in the background it kind of counter to how I currently play Touhou. I usually put on my headphones, turn out all of the lights, and try to focus on the game. I'll try having something secondary on, but I play all of my media on my laptop, which I also using for games. I'll work something out and see what happens, anyway.
I made a PADHerder. It's probably out of date though.

CyberAngel

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First, try to learn to gradually pay more attention with each stage. Stage 1 is usually laid-back and good for warmup, but in stage 2 things start to actually get dangerous. No need to concentrate with all your might, but keep your eyes open. I mean, you keep dying there, what better motivation do you need to pay more attention?

Second, if you tend to die in the same places, pay some additional attention there. Also, use Stage Practice if you don't already. Try to give the early stages a few runs. Can you do a perfect stage run? Do you fail in the same spots? It's a useful tool even if you don't use it regularly.

Last, but not least, even if you fail early on, don't quit. One life lost isn't the end of a run, even if it was early on. Actually, it can jolt you back into shape instead, and you might even do better than usual after that. Just teach yourself not to give up easily. You'd fail the first few times, but you can learn that if you keep going despite the mistakes.

Personally, I have no problem paying just enough attention all the time nowadays. Not to say I never make mistakes, but I'm always ready to bomb if things don't look like they're going my way. And even when things are totally bad, there's always something you can learn from a run and do better next time. Mind you, I wasn't like that when I just started.

commandercool

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First, try to learn to gradually pay more attention with each stage. Stage 1 is usually laid-back and good for warmup, but in stage 2 things start to actually get dangerous. No need to concentrate with all your might, but keep your eyes open. I mean, you keep dying there, what better motivation do you need to pay more attention?

If it was that easy I wouldn't be having this problem. This is a case where even if I set out to pay close attention it never works out that way because my mind drifts during the nothing parts of the stage, even if I'm actively trying not to.

Second, if you tend to die in the same places, pay some additional attention there.

It's not usually the same parts. Often just stray simple bullets somewhere that I don't see because I'm not really looking.

Also, use Stage Practice if you don't already. Try to give the early stages a few runs. Can you do a perfect stage run? Do you fail in the same spots? It's a useful tool even if you don't use it regularly.

I can reliably perfect these stages in theory, I don't think stage practice is what I need here.

Last, but not least, even if you fail early on, don't quit. One life lost isn't the end of a run, even if it was early on. Actually, it can jolt you back into shape instead, and you might even do better than usual after that. Just teach yourself not to give up easily. You'd fail the first few times, but you can learn that if you keep going despite the mistakes.

That's a fair point. I have two major bad habits in Touhou, holding out on bombs because I think maybe I can dodge something I should be bombing and quitting as soon as I die in a stupid place. I've been kind of working on both, but I can do more.

Personally, I have no problem paying just enough attention all the time nowadays. Not to say I never make mistakes, but I'm always ready to bomb if things don't look like they're going my way. And even when things are totally bad, there's always something you can learn from a run and do better next time. Mind you, I wasn't like that when I just started.

I think that's why this is so frustrating, I can usually learn something from any failure, but in this case all I'm learning over and over is "Pay more attention", which I already know I'm supposed to be doing.
I made a PADHerder. It's probably out of date though.

Sakurei

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Why are you not paying attention in stage 1? It's like the 2nd or 3rd hardest stage on lunatic. It's even higher ranked on lower difficulties. What is wrong with you?

Practice stage 1 until you play it on auto-pilot and don't need to play attention anymore. Ezpz

Oh

I'm not really focused

Hold shift for focused movement.

CyberAngel

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Maybe this is a problem of my not switching up games that often. Probably 95% of my Touhou gameplay is Imperishable Night. I think that might be hurting my game in a few ways at this point. I have noticed this problem pretty much regardless of game, but I think it's the worst with IN.

You know, switching games might be a pretty good idea. Like, stop playing IN and get deeper into other games. Then get back to IN after some time. You'd be on your toes at first because you'd have forgotten the stages a bit by then. This might teach you just how much attention you need to stay safe. I'm not talking about conscious learning, mind you, there's quite a number of things you can naturally learn on a reflex level.

That's a fair point. I have two major bad habits in Touhou, holding out on bombs because I think maybe I can dodge something I should be bombing and quitting as soon as I die in a stupid place. I've been kind of working on both, but I can do more.

For the former, try no-bomb runs, preferably in Stage Practice (you can allow to make more mistakes there), then prepare to bomb where you died in actual runs. For the latter, try to soldier on through each run. Will be frustrating at first, but will grow into a good habit of never giving up.

Anyway, good luck.

Karisa

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I agree, switching games and coming back later can be pretty effective.

I think this is also what initially encouraged me to learn the scoring systems-- trying to gain more point item value than a survival run made the early stages more complex, which helped maintain my attention when playing. (And even after learning that, there's always comparing end-of-stage-1/2 PIV to previous runs to see if you've improved.)

Re: Touhou Gameplay Help Thread #7 - Not just for spell card help after all
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2014, 08:22:15 AM »
Or - this may seem really weird now - you could have something on that would actually be diverting your attention like a movie or such.
Strangely enough it helps me to have something to ignore to get a better focus on what I'm doing.
I really like listening to videos or podcasts of people talking about stuff while I play. Listening to the original game BGM gets boring very quickly, even just listening to your own music wont keep your attention for more than an hour or so. Example of stuff I listen to while playing:

Joe Rogan Podcast #310 - Neil deGrasse Tyson (Astrophysicist)
Vsauce videos
Gimmeaflakeman/Gimmeabrakeman's videos (I like the long ones)

Re: Touhou Gameplay Help Thread #7 - Not just for spell card help after all
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2014, 10:13:20 AM »
How the hell do you beat this attack? There seems to be absolutely no way to find the safespot, and at the end of the attack there is absolutely no way to get close enough to take a picture safely.

I have no name

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Re: Touhou Gameplay Help Thread #7 - Not just for spell card help after all
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2014, 10:19:56 AM »
First, we have a dedicated thread for asking for help with any aspect of gameplay here.

Second, the lasers move quite slowly and give ample time to read them coming-though if you have trouble, I'd suggest moving off to one side to face each spawn point separately.
Finally, there is enough time to move up, even in the last shots-but you don't even need to, since Aya can move the camera up and take a successful photo from even the bottom of the screen.

Re: Touhou Gameplay Help Thread #7 - Not just for spell card help after all
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2014, 10:22:41 AM »
Yeah, but if I dodge the lasers that way, there is no space to dodge the kunai in time.

I have no name

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Re: Touhou Gameplay Help Thread #7 - Not just for spell card help after all
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2014, 10:34:48 AM »
The space between the lasers is small, sure, but there is more than enough room to sidestep any arrowheads that would pass through the section of the grid you're in.  I just spent some time messing with the scene and was able to go through the arrow wave from right next to a laser spawn point, and from right in front of Keine.

Re: Touhou Gameplay Help Thread #7 - Not just for spell card help after all
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2014, 10:36:22 AM »
There isn't enough time for me to find the safespot. I suck. :(

CyberAngel

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Re: Touhou Gameplay Help Thread #7 - Not just for spell card help after all
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2014, 11:19:18 AM »
I remember I had problems with this one when I just started as well. Just stay in center, predict where two lasers will intersect and position yourself right below that point. Though if you have problem with that or dodging arrowheads, you need a better reading and moving ability. In that case, just skip it for now and play some other games until you get some more 1cc's. Don't think you can do everything from the get-go, there is such thing as "general STG skill" that you need to have as well.

Re: Touhou Gameplay Help Thread #7 - Not just for spell card help after all
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2014, 11:24:38 AM »
Well, I don't have that, so I guess I just suck and there's no hope for getting better. :(

I have no name

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Re: Touhou Gameplay Help Thread #7 - Not just for spell card help after all
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2014, 11:28:45 AM »
When I started out I couldn't clear -easy- on any game.  I saw your post over in the accomplishments thread that you cleared a normal mode, so you've clearly made some improvement.  Just keep playing and you'll keep improving-I didn't start out able to handily 1cc IN lunatic (last time I played it I died 4 times, 2 of which were derp deaths on Stage 2!), it took practice and just time playing the game to get there.

commandercool

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Re: Touhou Gameplay Help Thread #7 - Not just for spell card help after all
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2014, 04:07:21 PM »
Switching up games helped a lot with the problem I was having (I have this running trend with Touhou where I play one game for months, then as soon as I switch to a different one my first attempt significantly outscores my old best run on that game, then diminishing returns and other problems cause me to switch again), but now I have another things I want to address.

I've noticed that when I die on something stupid after a certain point in the game (I've had this come up several times lately on EoSD stage 4) that one mistake snowballs into a bunch more mistakes and makes me lose. I can't recover from the error for some reason and keep doing dumb things. I don't really know why this is or how to handle it.

I've tried pausing the game and taking a break to re-gain control, but for whatever reason sometimes this doesn't work and I blow three or four lives on the remainder of the stage. Is this a problem anyone else has, or is it just me? Part of it might be that once I get behind on resources I start subconsciously trying to conserve the rest and withholding bombs I should be using, but that doesn't account for dying consistently to easy stuff I don't usually have trouble with. It's obviously a psychological/confidence problem, but I haven't really figured out what it is exactly or how to deal with it.
I made a PADHerder. It's probably out of date though.

Yookie

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Re: Touhou Gameplay Help Thread #7 - Not just for spell card help after all
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2014, 04:23:36 PM »
Taking a break mid run really doesn't help is what I've experienced. Just disrupts the flow.
A hit disrupting the performance of the rest of the run is something I know of as well.
It is mostly stages four and five where mistakes happen. The first three are easy enough to get them to near perfection.
Stage portions of four and five differ from game to game in how difficult they are and can really drag you down (PCB for example is rather easy in that regard, TD is ruthless) but almost all stage five bosses are rather gimmicky and tend to take more lives/bombs than the final since that is usually rather simple patterns at their core.
Best example for that would be Orin and Okuu.
What I'm trying to convey is that you should really just try to get to the end no matter what and to stop thinking about resources once you leave the part of the game you are comfortable with.
It really is just an issue of taking the loss and carrying on.

I have no name

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Re: Touhou Gameplay Help Thread #7 - Not just for spell card help after all
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2014, 05:30:28 PM »
It all depends on how seriously I'm taking that run.

Random credit of SA lunatic: waste a bunch of bombs all over the place, die once in the first 3 stages, die 3 times on Stage 4, die 3 times on Stage 5, realize I have a shot at 1ccing and almost choke but don't.
Random credit of TD lunatic: bomb 4 times on Kyouko, die twice on Stage 3, don't die on Stages 4 or 5, trainwreck on Stage 6 but clear anyway (with 4 deaths to Miko)
Super Serious lunatic no bomb attempt of MoF: 4 deaths to Stage 3 (run is dead) 1 death to Stage 4 (run is alive!) 3 to Stage 5 (all dumb)

Eventually you learn to not get attached to any specific run so there's no additional weight from the mistake, but a death still breaks the flow, snaps you out of focus and can definitely snowball into more.  If you catch yourself thinking more about how well/poorly you're playing, it's definitely better to pause, step back, and clear your mind.

Re: Touhou Gameplay Help Thread #7 - Not just for spell card help after all
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2014, 02:45:08 AM »
What I'm trying to convey is that you should really just try to get to the end no matter what and to stop thinking about resources once you leave the part of the game you are comfortable with.
It really is just an issue of taking the loss and carrying on.

This. Thiiiiiiiiis! The bolded thing I just read helped a lot.

While playing UFO, I'm so hung up on the next UFO combo that I completely forget where the bullets are. I'm so focused on getting those UFO's that I get distracted by them. (So distracted that I noticed they have a smiley fave on the top portion of the UFO.)
UFO Stage 4 N has been giving me so many problems that I just finally gave up and ignored those happy, bouncing UFOs. Died once in the stage and once on one of Murasa's spellcards AND finally captured her survival card in a single practice run. Which is a personal accomplishment for me.

So, yeah. That small bit of advice helped even if it was unintentional. Woo!  :V

Yookie

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Re: Touhou Gameplay Help Thread #7 - Not just for spell card help after all
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2014, 04:08:52 PM »
How nice that my advice was of use.

This is especially true in the newer games of the series. UFO with its UFOs (they really look kinda cute with their smiley face), TD with its spirits (this is actually more of a routing thing, but eh they're still tempting without Trance)
and especially DDC that takes baiting you to the auto-collect line to the max.

Re: Touhou Gameplay Help Thread #7 - Not just for spell card help after all
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2014, 04:26:26 PM »
DDC that takes baiting you to the auto-collect line to the max.

Resource collection in DDC is kinda fun, actually. I am a collecting fiend when it comes to DDC. I get a ton of bombs and go "look at all my bombs wow!" (And then die to something stupid and lose them all.)

Random advice: Don't play SA for hours on end and switch to another game and wonder why the items aren't auto-collecting when you graze.

Yookie

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Re: Touhou Gameplay Help Thread #7 - Not just for spell card help after all
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2014, 04:37:32 PM »
It is fun, that is right. And really enjoyable to enter stage 3 or 4 with ALL of the bombs. That's why (coupled with the fact that losing all bombs on death is a thing again) DDC is best when it comes to killing you like that. :V

redlakitu

Re: Touhou Gameplay Help Thread #7 - Not just for spell card help after all
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2014, 08:08:25 PM »
I am making preparations for IN Easy scoreruns using solo Marisa and while things are looking promising in general, there's still one thing I can't quite handle: namely, Reimu's first midboss nonspell. While normally rather trivial, this nonspell becomes surprisingly difficult when solo human characters, definitely one of the most difficult Easy patterns in the series. I'm unable to capture it with any consistency. My current way of dealing with it involves a planned bomb, but that's obviously less than optimal. So what do I do? Is there any way to minimize the threat?

Re: Touhou Gameplay Help Thread #7 - Not just for spell card help after all
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2014, 09:11:52 PM »
It works about the same way every time if you keep following the same movement pattern, varying a bit depending on Reimu's vertical position on the screen. Once you find a path that works for you, stick to it. (unless you want to maximize the amount of time you can milk off the familiars, in which case you should hone the route until satisfied - the less you shoot the boss herself, the better)

CyberAngel

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Re: Touhou Gameplay Help Thread #7 - Not just for spell card help after all
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2014, 10:07:42 PM »
Ah, yes. THAT place. It actually does have something of a pattern. Reimu always throws her orbs the same way. At first it will be safest on the left side, then on the right side, then it repeats after the long pause. Start from the far left and try to get to the right side through the orbs. Don't rely on Marisa's firepower to clear them, there are too many of them and they're too fast. The hardest part is to hammer it into your head that you must focus on just dodging them at all costs since they're pure hitboxes. Nothing impossible, though. You may refer to Sakuya solo runs for this as well, she has the same problem.

Re: Touhou Gameplay Help Thread #7 - Not just for spell card help after all
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2014, 02:51:48 PM »
Any tips on beating Orin?
I can whip Remilia on Hard losing only 3 lives but apparently i cannot beat Orin on Normal with 6.
Any hints that i can use? I have no problem with "Spleen Eater" and most of the time i can perform "Zombie Fairy" aswell, but "Cats Walk" and all the non-spellcard attacks leave me using a lot of bombs and losing a lot of lives.
Help?