Author Topic: Danmaku!! Let me AX you a question  (Read 246814 times)

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #300 on: December 12, 2014, 01:31:20 AM »
Here is the very rough first draft of the tech article you guys wanted, sorry I don't have a video yet, still trying to figure that one out.

Posting this here first to get feedback, I figure at least half of you are aspiring game designers so I'd like your questions and thoughts.



Hello everyone,

Those of you have been following us for awhile know this, but those of you who are new may not.

Danmaku!! is not a collectable card game.

We wanted Danmaku!! to be a standalone game you could play with your friends, without the investment that collectable card games (CCG) require.  Thus, when you play Danmaku!! everyone plays with the same deck, the "Battle Deck."

The Battle Deck is an 80 card deck that contains all the actions you can take in a game.

Design Rule #1: Attacking is easier than Defending.

Offensive cards are more common than defensive cards. Of the two basic actions, Shoot! and Graze!, Shoot! is twice as common as Graze!

In total, the cards that could be considered Offensive versus those that could be considered Defensive is a ratio of 60/40.

This rule keeps the game moving towards an end.  The average game of Danmaku!! with brand new players will last 40 minutes.  Experienced players can expect a 15-20 minute game.

Design Rule #2: Use CCG rarity.

[attach=1]

Even though Danmaku!! is not a CCG, the chances of you getting a super powerful card on a draw are rare.  Cards designated as Rare are 12.5% of the deck, and there's only one of each, so relying on them isn't a good idea.

Shoot! cards make up a whopping 30% of the battle deck, with Graze! cards being the second most common at 15%.  Both of these cards allow you to spend excess Shoot! cards for extra options, either extra range or team defense. 

Bomb and Power cards also considered Common.  Power because it can be "shot off" of your character.

Bomb is one of the best cards in the game, but it's common because:

"I can think of nothing sadder than playing a game without getting to use your spell card." - Carrot

Spell cards have big effects and are fun, so we want people to use them.  If you count Capture Spell Card, cards that activate your spell card are the 3rd most common card in the battle deck.

Design Rule #3: Choices choices

Board game enthusiasts will tell you: it's choices that make a game interesting.  Many Danmaku!! cards force you to carefully review your options.

Do you use your extra Shoot! cards to attack a far away player?  Or do you save them for a time when you have more information or are faced with a Challenge?

Do you want to Seal Away or Borrow a known card on the table, or a hidden card in a player's hand?

Master Plan can reorder the top three cards of any deck, which deck do you want to reorder?

Do I really want to Challenge Tenshi? It's like arguing on the internet.

What about Kourindou, Fairy Wave, Last Word, Tempest, and Party? How many of these players are my allies and how many are enemies?  Should you play them now or wait till the situation changes?

commandercool

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #301 on: December 12, 2014, 02:19:09 AM »
I am interested in this. I am going to make some comments, and hopefully they make any sense to anyone but me. :V

Design Rule #1: Attacking is easier than Defending.

Offensive cards are more common than defensive cards. Of the two basic actions, Shoot! and Graze!, Shoot! is twice as common as Graze!

In total, the cards that could be considered Offensive versus those that could be considered Defensive is a ratio of 60/40.

This rule keeps the game moving towards an end.  The average game of Danmaku!! with brand new players will last 40 minutes.  Experienced players can expect a 15-20 minute game.

Keeping the game moving toward a conclusion is important, and one of the trickiest things to balance right. On one hand you can weight offense more heavily than defense to keep the game moving toward the end, but on the other hand you can use a comeback mechanism to prevent snowball victories. Would you say that your game has a comeback mechanism? Sometimes in social games like this comebacks are self-balancing because players who get off to a slow start don't get attacked and players who get too powerful have everyone gunning for them, but  are there any other mechanics of effects that work to balance games ending too quickly? Especially with the power of some of the artifacts it seems like sometimes players can get off to significant runaway leads.

Design Rule #2: Use CCG rarity.

[attach=1]

Even though Danmaku!! is not a CCG, the chances of you getting a super powerful card on a draw are rare.  Cards designated as Rare are 12.5% of the deck, and there's only one of each, so relying on them isn't a good idea.

Shoot! cards make up a whopping 30% of the battle deck, with Graze! cards being the second most common at 15%.  Both of these cards allow you to spend excess Shoot! cards for extra options, either extra range or team defense. 

Bomb and Power cards also considered Common.  Power because it can be "shot off" of your character.

Bomb is one of the best cards in the game, but it's common because:

"I can think of nothing sadder than playing a game without getting to use your spell card." - Carrot

Spell cards have big effects and are fun, so we want people to use them.  If you count Capture Spell Card, cards that activate your spell card are the 3rd most common card in the battle deck.[/quote]

I think this is the most interesting idea here. I have a few reactions to it. First, it kind of goes against my gaming sensibility to make powerful cards lower frequency, since it increases variability in a way that I would think makes the game more luck-based. It sort of works in this game because the rarest cards aren't necessarily the most powerful (see bombs), and the ones that tend to be (the artifacts) are visible so players can gang up on the lucky ones accordingly. Still, the "strictly better" thing, especially with the card draw cards, grates against all of my gaming instincts a little.

Second, I think the comparison to CCG rarity only sort of works. It obviously makes the parallel between Danmaku and a sealed card game (one in which players get all of their cards by opening packs at an event, so everyone in theory has the same number of random cards of each rarity). Since in a constructed game (a game where players build their own decks out of cards they already own and bring them to games) rarity doesn't have an actual gameplay effect in most games. Just because a card is rare doesn't mean you'll see less of it in a constructed game (in fact, it often means the opposite), but it does in a sealed game.

What do you think of this parallel? If we are comparing Danmaku to a CCG does it play like a sealed game? On one hand the low frequency of rare cards is like a sealed game, but on the other hand the limited card pool is like a constructed game, where players tend to focus on the best cards in the environment (as opposed to sealed games where players have to make use of a wider pool of cards, using even sub-optimal cards because they simply don't have as many cards to pick from and can't afford to min-max as much). Beyond rarity do you see or intend any other similarities to CCGs? The different characters remind me of the avatar cards in games like the World Of Warcraft CCG or the Vanguard format in Magic, but beyond that I'm not sure where the actual gameplay similarities begin and end.

Design Rule #3: Choices choices

Board game enthusiasts will tell you: it's choices that make a game interesting.  Many Danmaku!! cards force you to carefully review your options.

Do you use your extra Shoot! cards to attack a far away player?  Or do you save them for a time when you have more information or are faced with a Challenge?

Do you want to Seal Away or Borrow a known card on the table, or a hidden card in a player's hand?

Master Plan can reorder the top three cards of any deck, which deck do you want to reorder?

Do I really want to Challenge Tenshi? It's like arguing on the internet.

What about Kourindou, Fairy Wave, Last Word, Tempest, and Party? How many of these players are my allies and how many are enemies?  Should you play them now or wait till the situation changes?
[/quote]

I like games with a lot of choices. My very favorite games tend to be the ones that look on the surface like they don't have a ton of relevant choices, but the more you look at them the more axes of choice you begin to uncover (the best example of this in my opinion is the board game Seasons, which at first glance could almost be accused of playing itself, but the more you look at it the more the dizzyingly huge number of choices that effect the game becomes clear), and I think Danmaku sort of fits that mold.

A lot of those choices have to do with the hidden roles, which makes holding on to cards for late in the game when you have a better idea of who has which roles a possible choice pretty much all of the time. One of the complaints that some of the more casual players I played with the few times I've tested the game was that they didn't understand what they were supposed to do early in the game before anyone knew the roles, but that's kind of an important part of the game and I can see why it might be intimidating. That element of hidden information exponentially increases the number of relevant choices you can make, and that's interesting but also potentially confusing.
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Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #302 on: December 12, 2014, 03:39:40 AM »
I am interested in this. I am going to make some comments, and hopefully they make any sense to anyone but me. :V

Keeping the game moving toward a conclusion is important, and one of the trickiest things to balance right. On one hand you can weight offense more heavily than defense to keep the game moving toward the end, but on the other hand you can use a comeback mechanism to prevent snowball victories. Would you say that your game has a comeback mechanism? Sometimes in social games like this comebacks are self-balancing because players who get off to a slow start don't get attacked and players who get too powerful have everyone gunning for them, but  are there any other mechanics of effects that work to balance games ending too quickly? Especially with the power of some of the artifacts it seems like sometimes players can get off to significant runaway leads.

That mechanic is Swing Draw, added pretty late to the game yes, but it really changed this up.  It refills a player's hand as they take damage, and allows a defenseless player a chance to stop an assault that would be otherwise hopeless.

The social aspect is definitely there, my friends often us the phrase "that's enough out of you" when Borrowing or Sealing Away.  Also the Sutra Scroll (Which is now the +1 draw per turn artifact) will replace itself (draw 1) when it's played in the final version, because it's such a high-value target that playing it seems futile without it.


I think this is the most interesting idea here. I have a few reactions to it. First, it kind of goes against my gaming sensibility to make powerful cards lower frequency, since it increases variability in a way that I would think makes the game more luck-based. It sort of works in this game because the rarest cards aren't necessarily the most powerful (see bombs), and the ones that tend to be (the artifacts) are visible so players can gang up on the lucky ones accordingly. Still, the "strictly better" thing, especially with the card draw cards, grates against all of my gaming instincts a little.

Second, I think the comparison to CCG rarity only sort of works. It obviously makes the parallel between Danmaku and a sealed card game (one in which players get all of their cards by opening packs at an event, so everyone in theory has the same number of random cards of each rarity). Since in a constructed game (a game where players build their own decks out of cards they already own and bring them to games) rarity doesn't have an actual gameplay effect in most games. Just because a card is rare doesn't mean you'll see less of it in a constructed game (in fact, it often means the opposite), but it does in a sealed game.

What do you think of this parallel? If we are comparing Danmaku to a CCG does it play like a sealed game? On one hand the low frequency of rare cards is like a sealed game, but on the other hand the limited card pool is like a constructed game, where players tend to focus on the best cards in the environment (as opposed to sealed games where players have to make use of a wider pool of cards, using even sub-optimal cards because they simply don't have as many cards to pick from and can't afford to min-max as much). Beyond rarity do you see or intend any other similarities to CCGs? The different characters remind me of the avatar cards in games like the World Of Warcraft CCG or the Vanguard format in Magic, but beyond that I'm not sure where the actual gameplay similarities begin and end.

Maybe the comparison is sort of sideways, but I think it's more Sealed than Constructed.  Each player is working with the cards they draw, but it's important to not rely on the rare draws.  This really comes out when a Kourindou is played, your best choice may be to take that Graze! instead of the Last Word.

Rares in Danmaku!! aren't game ending nukes though, they're more tip the scales type cards.  So they're not that swingy.

The rarity of cards has a different aspect that I forgot to talk about.  As game designers, what do we want to happen commonly, and what frequently?  All of the Rare cards you don't want to be going off all the time because it would ruin the fun. 


I like games with a lot of choices. My very favorite games tend to be the ones that look on the surface like they don't have a ton of relevant choices, but the more you look at them the more axes of choice you begin to uncover (the best example of this in my opinion is the board game Seasons, which at first glance could almost be accused of playing itself, but the more you look at it the more the dizzyingly huge number of choices that effect the game becomes clear), and I think Danmaku sort of fits that mold.

A lot of those choices have to do with the hidden roles, which makes holding on to cards for late in the game when you have a better idea of who has which roles a possible choice pretty much all of the time. One of the complaints that some of the more casual players I played with the few times I've tested the game was that they didn't understand what they were supposed to do early in the game before anyone knew the roles, but that's kind of an important part of the game and I can see why it might be intimidating. That element of hidden information exponentially increases the number of relevant choices you can make, and that's interesting but also potentially confusing.

The optimal play depends on your group, really, but I think Danmaku!! is at its most fun when every plays at their most sneaky.  The Heroine is a central focus, and she can attack indiscriminately.  As long as everyone else is losing faster than her, she still wins.  Additionally, if no one is attacking the Heroine, but attacking each other, things get interesting.  Danmaku!! is at its most boring when everyone tips their hand immediately.

I've only done it once, but I was able to trick the Heroine once into beating her Partner as the EX Boss, which caused her to lose all of her cards and ensured my victory, it was my greatest triumph.  The EX Boss should be played like a Traitor character.


As an addtion Danmaku!!, like Magic, is a game where the best player wins on average.  Especially with the incident deck, the game is intended to be chaotic.  My hope is that people can have fun losing.  In the 1st (Mobs) expansion, you can lose to the game itself.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 03:42:58 AM by Moogs Parfait »

Colticide

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #303 on: December 12, 2014, 04:15:00 AM »
I've only done it once, but I was able to trick the Heroine once into beating her Partner as the EX Boss, which caused her to lose all of her cards and ensured my victory, it was my greatest triumph.  The EX Boss should be played like a Traitor character.

Is that because only the Heroine announces who they are? So if your the EX boss and act like your helping the Heroine?

I'll be honest I read it all, but it's gonna take a while for it to settle in for me, but I can say that it's impressive that it feels balanced in how the cards are. The custom deck is something I always had issues with CCGs, I either can't make a good enough deck because of the amount of cards to use (and the synergy between cards) or someone has that one setup that you can't even get started and get taken out quickly. I like having a set deck that everyone plays with and it all depends on your character to make use of how you play instead of what cards you have. (they still make a difference but Shoot! is only one card but isn't part of five other variants, it's simple and with no need to over think on cards but focus on strategy instead. Then again I'm an idiot so I'm limited in what I can think up of.)
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Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #304 on: December 12, 2014, 04:59:53 PM »
Is that because only the Heroine announces who they are? So if your the EX boss and act like your helping the Heroine?

I'll be honest I read it all, but it's gonna take a while for it to settle in for me, but I can say that it's impressive that it feels balanced in how the cards are. The custom deck is something I always had issues with CCGs, I either can't make a good enough deck because of the amount of cards to use (and the synergy between cards) or someone has that one setup that you can't even get started and get taken out quickly. I like having a set deck that everyone plays with and it all depends on your character to make use of how you play instead of what cards you have. (they still make a difference but Shoot! is only one card but isn't part of five other variants, it's simple and with no need to over think on cards but focus on strategy instead. Then again I'm an idiot so I'm limited in what I can think up of.)

Yes.  The EX Boss wants to have a big showdown with the Heroine at the end of the game.  She doesn't have to defeat the Partners, but it's in her interest to do so if she can't take out the Heroine right away.   The EX Boss can be a big source of confusion if she wants to be.  Table talk is encouraged!

I've said before the EX Expansion adds advanced roles and difficult rules for experienced players.  Because it's my favorite, check out this alternate EX Boss:



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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #305 on: December 12, 2014, 06:49:22 PM »
How can you defeat the partners before bosses if you only know who the heroine is?
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Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #306 on: December 12, 2014, 06:50:22 PM »
You have to figure that out using social deduction.

Edit: Actually the help text seems off.  I don't understand why you'd have to, unless this is an alternate Partner card.  Now I'm confused.  It's been ages since we touched this stuff...
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 07:17:27 PM by Moogs Parfait »

ShadowNCS

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #307 on: December 12, 2014, 07:21:56 PM »
I've said before the EX Expansion adds advanced roles and difficult rules for experienced players.  Because it's my favorite, check out this alternate EX Boss:



I've come back from studying to tell you that this alternate EX Boss is awesome. :D
It must be really confusing for the heroine if she has basically two partners all of a sudden. Only that one of them wins without the heroine.
But still, from what I can tell, the Yandere seems to have an easier goal than the regular EX Boss (at least in the group I was usually playing with, where every role was apparent after the first round. Although I guess a Yandere might mix things up and conceal the roles a little better). But then again, I haven't played that expansion yet.  ;)

Although I wonder, does everyone know that a certain role has been switched out for an alternate version? Because things will get pretty interesting if you don't know if a standard EX Boss is just messing with you or if you actually have a Yandere in your group.  >:D

I better go back to studying again. *swooshes away*

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #308 on: December 12, 2014, 07:28:06 PM »
It is easier than the old EX Boss that had to beat the bosses and partners, then the Heroine, but the current EX Boss doesn't need to beat the Partners.

You don't know which roles are switched out.  What you do is take the role cards and sort them into piles based on their normal form, then you blindly draw from those piles the roles you'll be using.

So in a 7 player game there'd be:

1 EX Boss or Alternate
3 Bosses or Alternates
2 Partners or Alternates
1 Heroine (No alternates for Heroine ATM, though Seija makes me want one)

That set got put back into beta due to the changes we made to the base in the last few months.  Mobs somehow got out unscathed.

ShadowNCS

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #309 on: December 12, 2014, 08:13:49 PM »
1 Heroine (No alternates for Heroine ATM, though Seija makes me want one)

A Seija role? Would that mean that the heroine wins if all the Partners have been defeated? xD
That would be kind of easy, though, I would imagine. ^^

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #310 on: December 12, 2014, 08:33:07 PM »
Or a heroine has to beat all players involved, like a anti heroine.
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Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #311 on: December 19, 2014, 01:57:26 AM »
Wh-what madness is this?? I?ve become a playing piece in some game?!

Mononobe no Futo was illustrated by Socha



Futo is a fantastic henchman. With her ability to break dishes (permanents) to avoid attacks, she has extra survivability.

Her spell card, Oomonoimi?s Dinner, is a real mouthful and can make or break a game. She can?t choose to swap hands herself, so she needs an ally to take advantage of its full power.


If you face Futo, keep in mind that with a defensive ability and a utility spell card, her offense isn?t as high as other characters. If you can get her alone, she can become an easy target indeed.

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #312 on: December 21, 2014, 06:57:02 PM »
Lily White stream OFF.

« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 09:10:06 PM by Moogs Parfait »

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #313 on: December 27, 2014, 01:17:12 AM »
I'm just here to brag, look on and be amazed at what my friend made me.


Colticide

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #314 on: December 27, 2014, 07:45:06 AM »
I'm just here to brag, look on and be amazed at what my friend made me.



Are those power and bomb pillows?
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Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #315 on: December 27, 2014, 07:58:54 AM »
Yes they are

Colticide

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #316 on: December 27, 2014, 08:09:43 AM »
Yes they are


Paru paru

Planning on getting a point one too?
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Spotty Len

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #317 on: December 27, 2014, 09:53:56 AM »
Does the one on the right explode if you throw it?

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #318 on: December 27, 2014, 06:49:52 PM »
Sorta. It allows me to activate my spell card which explodes clothing.

http://i.imgur.com/7MTWGwx.gifv

Colticide

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #319 on: December 27, 2014, 07:05:02 PM »
Sorta. It allows me to activate my spell card which explodes clothing.

http://i.imgur.com/7MTWGwx.gifv

Oh god! I seen that somewhere before.
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Spotty Len

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #320 on: December 27, 2014, 07:39:31 PM »
Oh god! I seen that somewhere before.
Plastic Nee-san, in case you don't recall it.

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #321 on: December 28, 2014, 03:20:51 AM »
Okay I'm tired of making Death Note references already, but I have no regrets.





Also, what's this?


Colticide

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #322 on: December 28, 2014, 03:25:09 AM »
Also, what's this?



*Shakes uncontrolingly* Ahhh Yeah!
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Koog

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #323 on: December 28, 2014, 09:43:22 PM »

Also, what's this?



 :getdown: I can't control my hype...
Mwahahahahha!

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #324 on: December 29, 2014, 01:21:26 AM »


Paru paru

Planning on getting a point one too?

My friend who made them said she wasn't doing something like that again because it was a huge pain.

I'm glad she loves me enough for two pillows.

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« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 06:25:14 AM by Moogs Parfait »

Colticide

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #326 on: December 29, 2014, 03:28:58 AM »
Is tts free?
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Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #327 on: December 29, 2014, 03:30:06 AM »
$10.04 usd (What a weird price)

Colticide

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #328 on: December 29, 2014, 03:45:11 AM »
$10.04 usd (What a weird price)

I'll look into it next month when money is plenty. I can't guarantee I'll be good at the game but I'd love to try it. I'll let ya know when I get it.
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Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #329 on: December 29, 2014, 03:46:50 AM »
PM your email or something or otherwise send me your steam id and I'll give you and the next 4 people who can't afford a copy.

Seriously, I live across the country from the playtest group so I never get to play. 

If you aren't interested, you can watch FreezeEx streaming the Scarlet Mist card.

https://www.picarto.tv/live/channel.php?watch=FreezeEx
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 04:09:32 AM by Moogs Parfait »