Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F  (Read 239251 times)

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #990 on: June 10, 2014, 03:49:05 AM »
Special disk has everything alone. Yes do not spend skillpoints on stats that are not used. Suggested use of skillpoints is to divide them relatively evenly amongst your cast since the increasing cost punishes you for spoiling one character too much.

Dont neglect very minor stats though like patchy def and hp and such... Its not wise to spend as many points into those stats as others but halfway thru the game when pumping a stat you are using costs 1000s, even if the return is small, boosting patchy's low defense for just 5-100 skillpoints will be a good deal!

Also dont spend points on speed for the first floor or two, it wont bump it up at all until you start seeing your speed naturally grow on its own a few points after a dozen or so levels.

Also dont spend levelup bonuses on sp ever, prov not hp either for anyone other than komachi.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #991 on: June 10, 2014, 03:56:47 AM »
Quote
suzushinayuriko asked where the 20F rocks were.  I was showing them.  That's all there is to it.
Oh I mixed up who was asking, sorry!

Also ugh, I need to grind even more? This might be lazy of me because in one trip (admittedly a long trip) in 20f I can get the exp for like 11 more levelups due to the power of battle win chains, but... I'm already nearly immune to the boss's attacks, it's just that their def/mnd are unsurmountably high. I could chip at the mirror with Rumia but I'd probably lose her to an accident in the painfully dumb amount of time it'd take. At least Flan and Nitori are getting through the def barrier on Magatama some so I can see a light at the end of the tunnel there. I feel bad for it but I'll probably just have to throw a buttload of yen into their ATK stats (which are already heavily pumped) and make them carry even longer; my other attackers haven't been relevant outside of random battles since like... fighting Yukari on 15f. It's depressing, but too many bosses just have stupid amounts of def/mnd and Nitori in full atk build is still a great tank because lol maintennance so it's so easy to make her pull all the offensive weight.

@Colticide:You only need to buy the Special Disk. (I recommend usually toggling the music to the original versions though, which you can do at Akyu's) And yes, characters with magical attacks have no use for ATK and vice versa. Best way to spend skillpoints is to concentrate on their most important stats and only boost the others to as much as is cheap; glass cannon characters need their ATK or MAG far more than other stats, Cirno mostly only needs to go before enemies so she can paralyze them, your support characters need lots of HP/DEF/MND so they can survive attacks, and average attackers need just enough defenses to survive stray hits going their way. Similarly, don't worry too much about leveling affinities until they start getting pretty cheap, although fixing up weaknesses is a little more important when it's not prohibitively expensive. But yeah, like Ghaleon said, level stats up when the cost is really cheap; even Patchouli can use the pathetic boost to her HP and she can survive physical row attacks in the back with just a little DEF.

The levelup bonuses are more of a worry because you can never reassign them in the first game, and messing up with the skillpoints isn't a big deal because a few floors later the wasted points add up to almost nothing; with the experience level bonuses generally you should just pick the character's most important stat and devote every single levelup bonus to that one only (a character meant for support will always want def or mnd, not mag to boost heals or anything like that; do that with equips because later the heals will be strong without a mag build) Some characters for tanking might be better off splitting it between def/mnd evenly, though, and in rare cases you might consider a tankier attacker to take a few levels in def or mnd (although I personally don't think it's worth it)

Also dont spend levelup bonuses on sp ever, prov not hp either for anyone other than komachi.
Building Komachi for HP in LoT1 really isn't worth it IMO, she's a fairly decent attacker in an ATK build and since she takes boatloads of damage from things even squishies take 0 from, she can't tank no matter how much HP she has and it's hard to upkeep heals on her. In a normal build she still has the HP sponge to take a hit or two like a champ, she's better off being able to actually hit things along with it.

also it's funny but her cld attacks can deal okay damage against the huge amount of fir weak bosses, which is an economical alternative to her SPI nuke
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 04:11:07 AM by Serela »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Colticide

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  • *
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #992 on: June 10, 2014, 04:10:54 AM »
Special disk has everything alone. Yes do not spend skillpoints on stats that are not used. Suggested use of skillpoints is to divide them relatively evenly amongst your cast since the increasing cost punishes you for spoiling one character too much.

Dont neglect very minor stats though like patchy def and hp and such... Its not wise to spend as many points into those stats as others but halfway thru the game when pumping a stat you are using costs 1000s, even if the return is small, boosting patchy's low defense for just 5-100 skillpoints will be a good deal!

Also dont spend points on speed for the first floor or two, it wont bump it up at all until you start seeing your speed naturally grow on its own a few points after a dozen or so levels.

Also dont spend levelup bonuses on sp ever, prov not hp either for anyone other than komachi.

Don't stats gain bonuses as you level up if you have points invested? I had Sakuya with a boost to her HP (I'll explain why in a bit) and when I leveled up later down the line I made a whole 100 extra hp from that.

I can see the speed being an issue but with Sakuya a few levels into spd and a level or two she already gets a few speed points to use.

When I was on the demo I gave Reimu and Marisa SP bonus and I'd say it made healing a DEF buffing and I had access to master spark super early.

I found an old list I did a while back and using the Wiki page on the game made a list of characters best stats and focused on those (like in pokemon and EVs).

EX: Remilia
HP (S)
ATK (S)* (Since she has a lot of S rank skills I when with the one I would use in the long run, Meiling replaces her as the tank and over time Remi will use just ATK anyway and supports her spells modifier as well.)
DEF (S)
MND (B)
SPD (S)

Would a set up like this be ok?
Touhou Fugyouseki ~ Nightmare of Sleeping Girl English Patch
I run a crappy YouTube channel, check it out if you wish~

Hawk

  • Babababa~
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #993 on: June 10, 2014, 04:17:31 AM »
Also ugh, I need to grind even more? This might be lazy of me because in one trip (admittedly a long trip) in 20f I can get the exp for like 11 more levelups due to the power of battle win chains, but... I'm already nearly immune to the boss's attacks, it's just that their def/mnd are unsurmountably high. I could chip at the mirror with Rumia but I'd probably lose her to an accident in the painfully dumb amount of time it'd take. At least Flan and Nitori are getting through the def barrier on Magatama some so I can see a light at the end of the tunnel there. I feel bad for it but I'll probably just have to throw a buttload of yen into their ATK stats (which are already heavily pumped) and make them carry even longer; my other attackers haven't been relevant outside of random battles since like... fighting Yukari on 15f. It's depressing, but too many bosses just have stupid amounts of def/mnd and Nitori in full atk build is still a great tank because lol maintennance so it's so easy to make her pull all the offensive weight.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.  It's insane how many bosses just take 0 damage from things throughout the game.  DEF/MND values on bosses are just, in general, astronomically too high, even before postgame.

Kasen's super good against Magatama.  She can quite literally punch through its defenses.

Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #994 on: June 10, 2014, 04:21:05 AM »
Quote
Kasen's super good against Magatama.  She can quite literally punch through its defenses.
Even Nitori's super scope is barely getting through at max buffs (and if the buff falls below like 70% she hits 1s again), by the time Kasen can damage it I can probably just slaughter it using Flandre instead. Between Nitori being several times tankier and stronger than Kasen or Kanako or Yuuka, and a glass cannon assistant to punch a whole in some bosses, I really question what use my other attackers are worth :/ I've been debating benching them for more glass and having just one bulky attacker on the side instead of three or four since most of the time they really just can't do anything at all.

Quote
When I was on the demo I gave Reimu and Marisa SP bonus and I'd say it made healing a DEF buffing and I had access to master spark super early.
It's nice at first, but it quickly becomes less important... and then later in the game, it'll really suck to not have the extra MAG or defensive power. The farther you get, the more of an impact your levelup bonuses have; and this is a game where damage formulas just directly subtract defense from the potential damage, so a little ATK or DEF can be the difference between large damage or a big fat zero. This is also why it's not worth using levelup bonuses on HP, because it's better to just stop the damage with DEF or MND (although it's certainly important in skill point levelups)

The stats don't exactly gain extra bonuses as you level up by having points invested; they kind of do, but it's just a matter of... it's like putting on equipment? The stat will be higher, yes, because you have a bonus applied to it. But it doesn't matter when or how that bonus comes around- it's increasing the same amount per level either way, it's just the end result will be bigger if you have those special bonuses allocated to it.

You don't need to worry about making special lists like that; just pick a stat for the character to use the LevelUp bonus on, and favor their important stats a bit more than the others in the library. You should get a feel for it before long, and if you mess anything up in the first several floors, well... you'll be making that many skillpoints in just a battle or two later in the game, so it's fine.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 04:23:04 AM by Serela »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Colticide

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #995 on: June 10, 2014, 04:33:36 AM »
It's nice at first, but it quickly becomes less important... and then later in the game, it'll really suck to not have the extra MAG or defensive power. The farther you get, the more of an impact your levelup bonuses have; and this is a game where damage formulas just directly subtract defense from the potential damage, so a little ATK or DEF can be the difference between large damage or a big fat zero. This is also why it's not worth using levelup bonuses on HP, because it's better to just stop the damage with DEF or MND (although it's certainly important in skill point levelups)

The stats don't exactly gain extra bonuses as you level up by having points invested; they kind of do, but it's just a matter of... it's like putting on equipment? The stat will be higher, yes, because you have a bonus applied to it. But it doesn't matter when or how that bonus comes around- it's increasing the same amount per level either way, it's just the end result will be bigger if you have those special bonuses allocated to it.

You don't need to worry about making special lists like that; just pick a stat for the character to use the LevelUp bonus on, and favor their important stats a bit more than the others in the library. You should get a feel for it before long, and if you mess anything up in the first several floors, well... you'll be making that many skillpoints in just a battle or two later in the game, so it's fine.

So on level up's do the sup stats and at the library do the important ones? I can't remember where or what but I think I ended up fighting Yuugi at some point and the team I used got DESTROYED, no chance was given.

OK so the skill points act like a permanent equip, so lets say you have a lvl 2 atk skill, that would add something like 2% to your base atk stat when you level up. (as a example if that makes sense.)
Touhou Fugyouseki ~ Nightmare of Sleeping Girl English Patch
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Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #996 on: June 10, 2014, 04:45:11 AM »
OK so the skill points act like a permanent equip, so lets say you have a lvl 2 atk skill, that would add something like 2% to your base atk stat when you level up. (as a example if that makes sense.)
Yes. This is actually more literal of an example than you'd think, because the bonus is the same type equipment gives; later in the game your equipment bonus will not be nearly as large as you'd think, because you have a huge increase from skill points already; although it still matters due to subtraction formulas, plus equipment affinities and status resists are important. Levelup bonuses work a similar way, but the increase will still be -GIGANTIC- late in the game, like "this stat would have been literally half as high if I hadn't used all my levelup bonuses on it" by the time you're reaching the end of the main game. It's the difference between your attacks doing no damage or huge numbers, and your buffers/healers taking 0 or just falling over when they get hit and forcing you to gain 20 more levels to beat the boss.

Quote
So on level up's do the sup stats and at the library do the important ones?
No, on level ups just pick the single most important stat (either def or mnd, or their higher offense stat) and go all-in, per character. At the library boost their important ones more (which you'll get a feel for what stat needs more investment as you play), and raise the rest to whatever is still cheap, since even your non-durable characters like being able to take a weaker hit and your healers still need some mag and/or atk to heal with.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #997 on: June 10, 2014, 06:50:59 AM »
don't spend level up bonuses on sp, just don't. late in the game you're swimming in sp and if you ever run out it's because of djinn storm or destroy magic or something, and because you can never get your level up bonuses back, they're wasted points if you spend it on sp, you can use skillup points on sp instead.

and sakuya (or whoever) getting 1 speed after a few level ups and some skillpoints spent on speed doesn't really prove much. she likely would have gotten a point or two without the skillpoints anyway. The point is speed goes up so slowly early in the game, that you would have to invest way too many skillpoints into it to even make a noticeable difference (3 extra points is 3% faster, not a big deal), if you spent your skillpoints in somewhere else instead like atk or def, you could make noticeably larger amounts of damage, or survive hits that may have 1shot you (perhaps this is why yuugi crushed you...though by that point int he game spending decent skillpoints in speed is not only acceptable, but encouraged).

Hawk

  • Babababa~
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #998 on: June 10, 2014, 07:08:41 AM »
Well, it seems that no matter what I try, I can't fix this weird achievements bug.  The 20000 excess skillpoints doesn't really amount to all that much, but if this prevents me from fighting the Renko bosses I'll be livid.

Edit: Actually I'll just hex the skillpoints out of my save.  At least that works.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 07:16:05 AM by Hawk »

Kirin no Sora

  • Wanderer of Gensokyo
  • I have returned from the nothingness once more...
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #999 on: June 10, 2014, 06:31:38 PM »
@ Kirin no Sora I personally would rather have Hatate be a magic attacker than physical attacker.

Hate to say it, but I'm the wrong guy. I didn't write that.

That said, however...

So I was thinking about if some characters were put in the plus disk (Not including those already confirmed obviously)
I only thought of spellcards and stat growths, skills would be a lot of effort for just speculation
So, anyway (I dont know how to spoiler pls halp)

Letty Whiterock
HP: B-  ATK: E  DEF: B-  MAG: B  MND: E  SPD: E  EVA: E
Spells - All spells use mag
Cold Sign: Cold Snap
Multi target weak cold damage, decent chance to inflict shock. Leveling up increases shock chance
Winter Sign: Flower Wither Away
Multi target weak nature damage, debuff to attack, magic and speed. Leveling increases debuff percentage
Mystic Sign: Table Turning
Multi target medium mystic damage, lowers timebar by 1/2 for random encounters, 1/8 for bosses. Leveling increases damage
White Sign: Undulation Ray
Single target strong cold damage, no extra effects. Leveling increases damage, lvl5 adds a chance to shock

Hatate Himekaidou
HP: E  ATK: B+  DEF: D-  MAG: E  MND: D-  SPD: A  EVA: A+ (Better than Chen/Aya)
Spells: All spells use atk
Continuous Shooting "Rapid Shot"
Single target medium wind damage,can't miss. Levelling increases damage
Far-sightedness "Tengu Psychography"
Single target medium dark damage, lowers mind and magic. Levelling increases debuff percentage
Photography "Full Panoramic Shot"
Single target medium spirit damage, lowers attack and defence. Levelling increases debuff percentage
Photography "Secluded Paparazzi"
Single target medium wind damage, lowers speed. Levelling greatly increases debuff percentage

Tewi Inaba
HP: B-  ATK: B  DEF: B-  MAG: C  MND: B  SPD: C+  EVA: C-
Spells: all spells are composite except ancient duper which is atk only
Ancient Duper
Row target high phys damage, low chance of small para. Levelling increases para chance.
Runaway Rabbit "Fluster Escape"
Multi target low phys damage, high chance of med para. Levelling increases damage
Rabbit Sign "Great Fortune Crest"
Single target healing spell that buffs defensive stats. Levelling increases buff

Medicine Melancholy
HP: D  ATK: E  DEF: D  MAG: B  MND: C  SPD: B  EVA: B
Spells: All use mag
Poison Sign "Nerve Poison"
Multi target medium nature damage, high chance of weak para. Levelling increases effect
Poison Sign "Melancholy Poison"
Same as nerve poison except inflicts silence and terror
Fog Sign "Gassing Garden"
Same as nerve poison except inflicts heavy
Poison Sign "Poison Breath"
Same as nerve poison except inflicts poison
Confusion "Into Delirium"
Single target high dark damage, medium chance of shock,levelling increases effect.

Ichirin Kumoi
HP: B  ATK: A  DEF: B  MAG: E  MND: B  SPD: D  EVA: 0 forever
Spells: All use atk
Iron Fist "An Unarguable Youkai Punch"
Single target high phys damage, high chance of shock. Levelling increases damage
Lightning "Electrified Nyuudou"
Single target high wind damage. Most accurate of ichirin's spells. Levelling decreases delay (Reduces delay by 1000 per level)
Fist Sign "Wind-Killing Confession"
Multi target high phys damage. Levelling increases damage
Barrage "King Kraken Strike"
Row target high cold damage. Levelling increases damage
Rage "Calamity Scolding Scorch"
Self max atk buff, debuffs speed and mind. Levelling decreases debuff percentages

Minamitsu Murasa
HP: A (Below komachi but still pretty high), ATK: D  DEF: B  MAG: E  MND: B+  SPD: Slightly slower than patchy  EVA: D
Spells: All composite
Ghost "Sinker Ghost"
Single target low cold damage, greatly reduces speed. Levelling increases debuff %
Flood "Venus of the Bilge"
Multi target healing spell, not that fab for healing but cures ailments. levelling increases healing
Harbor Sign "Phantom Ship Harbor"
Multi target low dark damage, completely bypasses defences

Well that's all for now :P


As much as I want to figure out how viable these are, all that I'm coming up with is "Not enough information" for most of them. That, and I think that I'll need time to even do a detailed train of thinking towards what I think of them, which will end up taking me days...

Edit: I just realized that my post is the 999th post, meaning that we need to continue this on a new thread...

2nd Edit: Done. See you guys there.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 06:46:32 PM by Kirin no Sora »
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...