PSA! A bit of refresher on forum etiquette & rule clarification & 2 new HME mods

[Keine Kamishirasawa]

Comment on PSA! A bit of refresher on forum etiquette and rule clarification and two new HME mods!

[Raikaria]

I read the thread in PTA; and while I am not aware of the exact nature of the 'reported to the authorities' incident; I trust it had to have been pretty serious.

I guess by 'loli' you don't mean things like 'This artwork this guy has done of Satori/Koishi [Choosing them because they tend to be almost always depicted as such] makes her look cute'; but less... uh... savory and safe-for-work... things. Just wanted a little clarification on the rule here; for everyone's sake [Especially the Art forums. Don't want people getting in trouble for commenting on someone's artwork of a puppy-dog-eyes Satori or something]

Treating mods/admins with respect is a no-brainer; and anyone dumb enough to insult a mod; especially when already tempbanned; shouldn't be here. Slight shame; since the person in question had some contact with me on the forums and seemed alright; but that behavior... nope; I'm standing up for the banhammer here.

[Tengukami]

Just emphasizing this bit here:

Along with these rules, we?d also like to draw attention again to the report button. We try to do what we can to monitor issues on our own, but things do go under our notice all the time. This is not to say we don?t care about these issues, sometimes we?re just unclear whether something is possibly objectionable or not. The report button is there to tell us if you feel uncomfortable about a post. This isn?t an instant ?punishment? button, the vast majority of the time we resolve issues with a simple notice to the user and a post edit. While we do collect your user name when you report, we will never ever punish someone for over reporting. And don?t be discouraged if it looks like nothing happened, we do take every single report seriously and address them as they come in. Your concerns are very valuable to us.

[MatsuriSakuragi]

I guess by 'loli' you don't mean things like 'This artwork this guy has done of Satori/Koishi [Choosing them because they tend to be almost always depicted as such] makes her look cute'; but less... uh... savory and safe-for-work... things. Just wanted a little clarification on the rule here; for everyone's sake [Especially the Art forums. Don't want people getting in trouble for commenting on someone's artwork of a puppy-dog-eyes Satori or something]

Honestly, I'd be perfectly satisfied to see a much lower tolerance policy on the word 'loli'. Seriously, there is zero reason to use the word outside of, like, the phrase 'goth loli', as that's referring to the gothic lolita style and is vastly different from what connotations that the word 'loli' has.

The word doesn't just mean 'little girl' no matter how much people want to say it does. The general implication is that it refers to a sexualized child and that is just... no. And I think it's way overused in the Touhou community, which, as we've just seen, can lead some to think that we condone talking about sexualized little girls and no, no we don't.

The real kicker to all of this is that the creepiness went way under the radar for so long because no one reported him for it-- and I've heard multiple accounts of 'well, I thought it was weird, but I didn't know it was wrong' and that's why I'd rather people just not use the word at all. You know what I'm saying?

The same goes for words like 'rape' and 'fag', which have a tendency to be thrown around casually a lot. There is absolutely no reason to use them and in the vast majority of the time the person using those words out of context are doing so just to be oh-so-edgy while those words have a lot more heavy implications than what they are saying they do.

Treating mods/admins with respect is a no-brainer; and anyone dumb enough to insult a mod; especially when already tempbanned; shouldn't be here. Slight shame; since the person in question had some contact with me on the forums and seemed alright; but that behavior... nope; I'm standing up for the banhammer here.

You'd think it would be a no-brainer, but yet, here we are talking about why we shouldn't be discussing sexualized children, too. There seems to be a deficit of common sense here, and that's what this PSA is here to clarify.

[SirSlarty]

Honestly, I'd be perfectly satisfied to see a much lower tolerance policy on the word 'loli'. Seriously, there is zero reason to use the word outside of, like, the phrase 'goth loli', as that's referring to the gothic lolita style and is vastly different from what connotations that the word 'loli' has.

The word doesn't just mean 'little girl' no matter how much people want to say it does. The general implication is that it refers to a sexualized child and that is just... no. And I think it's way overused in the Touhou community, which, as we've just seen, can lead some to think that we condone talking about sexualized little girls and no, no we don't.

I agree to this. That word just makes my skin crawl. I wish people wouldn't use it so casually.

[KuroArashi100]

Treating mods/admins with respect is a no-brainer; and anyone dumb enough to insult a mod; especially when already tempbanned; shouldn't be here. Slight shame; since the person in question had some contact with me on the forums and seemed alright; but that behavior... nope; I'm standing up for the banhammer here.

But isn't  that somewhat like saying "I've got a gun, be nice to me"? I mean, I agree with you, but your wording makes it seem to me that you should be able to treat "normal" people without respect, as long as you don't treat mods the same. People shouldn't be rude to mods/admins etc. but they should be nice to each other too.
Insulting a mod is stupid, but insulting others isn't good either.

I don't mean to twist any words or something; but the way you worded it seems a little bit ... weird to me.

But on topic:
I agree with pretty much everything that has been said thus far. I don't remember seeing anything like that while being here except for aforementioned cases, but reminding people of it is a good idea regardless.

[Tengukami]

But isn't  that somewhat like saying "I've got a gun, be nice to me"?

It would be exactly like that if mods had the power to shoot you through the monitor or physically harm you in any way. Or if the mods were demanding you be nice to them - there's difference between "be nice to me" and "don't be shitty".

Everyone here does indeed deserve to be treated with respect. I think the point was simply being made that getting shitty with a mod is actionable, and could get you probated or banned. Being indifferent, not engaging, respectfully disagreeing even very strongly, joking around in an otherwise within-bounds way - these are all fine, too.

[Omba]

A bit more than one third of all (hentai) Touhou doujins contain at least some amount of lolicon. (Granted that number's from the scanned ones only, but considering the more mainstream/softer ones tend to get scanned more frequently, that number should hold when applied to the unscanned ones, too).

You know, just to give you an idea of what the Japanese fandom is like. :V

[KuroArashi100]

It would be exactly like that if mods had the power to shoot you through the monitor or physically harm you in any way. Or if the mods were demanding you be nice to them - there's difference between "be nice to me" and "don't be shitty".

Everyone here does indeed deserve to be treated with respect. I think the point was simply being made that getting shitty with a mod is actionable, and could get you probated or banned. Being indifferent, not engaging, respectfully disagreeing even very strongly, joking around in an otherwise within-bounds way - these are all fine, too.

But they do have more power. And that makes all the difference to me. In theory, annoying or even insulting people won't mean anything as long as they don't report it and a mod doesn't see it and decide that that is unacceptable behaviour. I just wanted to point out that part of Raikaria's post - which I completely agree with - could be interpreted wrong leading to a bad understanding between people. In my experience, people make choices based largely on feelings. This might just be my experience - but I want to try and avoid such cases regardless, even if there aren't any. I think the right proverb here is "An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure" - it is better to avoid problems than to solve them.

[Tengukami]

But they do have more power. And that makes all the difference to me.

Well, then I don't know what to tell you beyond probations and bans are actually very rare; most of the time staff elects to speak to the person directly, edit their post, or decide that other community members are already handling the situation well enough. Mods do have "power" in some senses, but I'd like to point out that staff do more than probate and ban. Janitors, for example, help keep things clean and organized. Acolytes are your representatives to admins, as well as serving as your personal board keepers. All staff want people here to have fun, enjoy their time on this site, welcome new users and guide them, and deal with problem posts in the least intrusive, most proportional way possible. So I think your concerns might be a bit misinformed, is all, when you consider context.

In theory, annoying or even insulting people won't mean anything as long as they don't report it and a mod doesn't see it and decide that that is unacceptable behaviour.

In practice, sometimes other community members point out the rules and posting guidelines to others - yes, it does happen. But this is exactly why we're encouraging the use of the report button, so, this seems more like a philosophical "if a shitpost happens on a board and there is no one there to read it, does it make a sound?" kind of thing.

[Omba]

The real kicker to all of this is that the creepiness went way under the radar for so long because no one reported him for it-- and I've heard multiple accounts of 'well, I thought it was weird, but I didn't know it was wrong' and that's why I'd rather people just not use the word at all. You know what I'm saying?

I'd wager that has more to do with the fact that it was buried in the last part of a signature link that was labeled as "boring" and contained for the most part a fairly normal list of "stuff I want to achieve in shmups" which hardly anyone would finish reading.
Which naturally leads to it taking a while till anyone reads the part in question. And by the point someone does read it, he'll probably assume someone else has already read it before him. So if nothing has already happened, he'll surmise that probably no one cares.

[KuroArashi100]

Well, I didn't think of staff as "the people who probate and ban only", but I just wanted to adress the (probably non-existent) problem of bad interpretations etc. that might possibly have ocurred while talking like this. I'm not saying this would have happened; everyone is able to discuss the problem at hand without making jokes or other incorrect behaviour.
I just said it because I have some bad IRL experiences with things like this, where I said something, without meaning anything else other than the situation at hand, and half a year later I got that same thing thrown in my face, and suddenly I was the "bad guy" simply because people took something out of its context and used against me.

But enough about that. I am happy that everyone strives not to let anything bad happen on this forum.

[Tengukami]

I just said it because I have some bad IRL experiences with things like this, where I said something, without meaning anything else other than the situation at hand, and half a year later I got that same thing thrown in my face, and suddenly I was the "bad guy" simply because people took something out of its context and used against me.

Ah, OK. I understand. Yeah, I've had bad experiences like that, too. I wouldn't fret over that here, though, at least as far as the staff are concerned - they will bring things up, ask to hear your explanation, and things that are misunderstandings are shrugged off and treated as water under the bridge; no harm, no foul. I'm afraid I can't say no other user on the site will ever misunderstand you, keep it to themselves, and then toss it up in your face long after the fact, but I can assure you that that's not the staff MO anyway.

[Karisa]

I'd wager that has more to do with the fact that it was buried in the last part of a signature link that was labeled as "boring" and contained for the most part a fairly normal list of "stuff I want to achieve in shmups" which hardly anyone would finish reading.
Which naturally leads to it taking a while till anyone reads the part in question. And by the point someone does read it, he'll probably assume someone else has already read it before him. So if nothing has already happened, he'll surmise that probably no one cares.

I'd like to point out that it was much more common than an isolated occurrence. Just check his post history if you need evidence. It'd be hard not to notice for anyone who frequented HME, but it wasn't reported earlier due to various misunderstandings-- I know that, until a few days ago, I didn't realize many of these policies existed, going under the assumption that anything that common must be acceptable.

It's amazing how much my views have changed in the last few days. I sort of wish now that I'd been reporting those posts, but, well, that was the past. I hope both the site policies and the report system have been clarified enough now.

[CyberAngel]

As much as it pains me to see a few people who helped me in the past go, I'm fully with the staff here. Legal and moral reasons aside, there's another thing why "lolicon jokes" should go. I've seen enough times that people who have no idea about Touhou think that it's popular because "it's all about girls", somehow leading into "these games are for lolicons". This is a reputation Touhou fandom would do well without. Even though some people may think joking about it may be fun for those who know, with Internet being the way it is, there will be enough people who'd pick up those jokes seriously. I'm actually glad to see that this place is trying to actively avoid being associated with this stupid thing.

As for what happened after the initial ban, I witnessed some of the things. Not taking staff seriously when they've pretty much said it's a serious issue, suiciding by provoking the staff, deleting accounts? What a childish way to act in that situation. Oh well, what's done is done. Things sure will be a bit calmer around here, but maybe that's for the better.

[helvetica]

I did not mention it in the announcement but we have decided to make a public probation/ban log, so that there's transparency on actions staff members take and there's no confusion when someone gets punished. We've shied away from doing so out of respect of the users being punished, as we do not want a public log of screw ups that everyone can see, so punishments over a month old will be automatically removed. ONLY exception being permabans, those will stay in the log indefinitely.

[Omba]

This is a reputation Touhou fandom would do well without.

This forum may try, but it's not going to make a lick of a difference for the way the fandom as a whole is perceived.
At best, you're going to get rid of a significant fraction of the userbase here.

[Zerviscos]

Insulting a mod is stupid, but insulting others isn't good either.

No one insulted anyone. Or at the least. No one INTENDED to insult anyone.

This is a reputation Touhou fandom would do well without.

If you're talking about the fandom as a whole. That's just plainly impossible.
The significant percentage of the Touhou community, is, without a doubt, THAT KIND OF COMMUNITY. In fact, almost any kind of fandom has people who will "go over the top".
A lot of people are like that. And mostly, you don't notice it, because unlike "some people" who are just casually revealing their fantasies. Those people aren't willing/embarrased to expose those "fetishes". They know it's bad, and they know it's very disgusting.

Frankly, that's the best it can be. And hope that everyone who does have those, to never speak of it in public. As there are even people here who are religious, civil, and some underage that WILL feel VERY UNCOMFORTABLE.

[trancehime]

Which naturally leads to it taking a while till anyone reads the part in question. And by the point someone does read it, he'll probably assume someone else has already read it before him. So if nothing has already happened, he'll surmise that probably no one cares.

a lot of people actually thought it was a joke and wasn't a big deal; which is a big problem. yes, sure there are people whp do not know why it is wrong to joke about that kind of thing? you still shouldn't fucking do it anyway. it's wrong.

Frankly, that's the best it can be. And hope that everyone who does have those, to never speak of it in public. As there are even people here who are religious, civil, and some underage that WILL feel VERY UNCOMFORTABLE.

Good to be inconspicuous and very quiet about that kind of thing. I'd know it best.

[helvetica]

This forum may try, but it's not going to make a lick of a difference for the way the fandom as a whole is perceived.
At best, you're going to get rid of a significant fraction of the userbase here.

This is not a witchhunt against those who are into Touhou for those reasons. This is making this a comfortable place for all fans. Sexually charged content, whether it'd be lolicon or using words like "rape" in casual conversation, is something that is both not necessary and is not welcome here.

The personal feelings of the staff about those tastes are irrelevant to this discussion, this is about making this forum a place where people won't feel uncomfortable interacting in. Sexual interests have no relevance to most of the discussion here on MotK, and the casual usage of words like "gay" and "rape" and slurs serve no purpose other than to tarnish the image of the community and upset people. And if some people do not like the fact we will be policing and enforcing against that, they can go somewhere else. We (as a community) do not feel as if we're missing out that much blocking such content and potentially losing users who object to us doing so.

And while we can't change how the "whole fandom" is perceived, that doesn't mean we should give up on our corner of it. This is why we do not permit piracy talk, and this is why we do not permit sexually charged content and hateful speech. We know it exists, and we know we can't eradicate it entirely, but we don't have to add to it.

[Raikaria]

Honestly, I'd be perfectly satisfied to see a much lower tolerance policy on the word 'loli'. Seriously, there is zero reason to use the word outside of, like, the phrase 'goth loli', as that's referring to the gothic lolita style and is vastly different from what connotations that the word 'loli' has.

The word doesn't just mean 'little girl' no matter how much people want to say it does. The general implication is that it refers to a sexualized child and that is just... no. And I think it's way overused in the Touhou community, which, as we've just seen, can lead some to think that we condone talking about sexualized little girls and no, no we don't.

The real kicker to all of this is that the creepiness went way under the radar for so long because no one reported him for it-- and I've heard multiple accounts of 'well, I thought it was weird, but I didn't know it was wrong' and that's why I'd rather people just not use the word at all. You know what I'm saying?

The same goes for words like 'rape' and 'fag', which have a tendency to be thrown around casually a lot. There is absolutely no reason to use them and in the vast majority of the time the person using those words out of context are doing so just to be oh-so-edgy while those words have a lot more heavy implications than what they are saying they do.


You'd think it would be a no-brainer, but yet, here we are talking about why we shouldn't be discussing sexualized children, too. There seems to be a deficit of common sense here, and that's what this PSA is here to clarify.

OK; glad to have it clearer what the exact stance on the matter is. Clarity is always best in situations such as these; the last thing anyone wants to see is people not being clear on something and a huge storm being kicked up about it.

The deficit of common sense was half the reason I asked for clarity on what the actual stance was. I don't frequent the Art forums; I don't know much of what goes on there, but I feel there is the place most likly for misunderstandings; especially commenting on other people's artwork. [I could be completely and utterly incorrect about this]

[Omba]

And if some people do not like the fact we will be policing and enforcing against that, they can go somewhere else. We (as a community) do not feel as if we're missing out that much blocking such content and potentially losing users who object to us doing so.

Just wanted to hear this plainly said so we're all on the same page here.

[CyberAngel]

And while we can't change how the "whole fandom" is perceived, that doesn't mean we should give up on our corner of it. This is why we do not permit piracy talk, and this is why we do not permit sexually charged content and hateful speech. We know it exists, and we know we can't eradicate it entirely, but we don't have to add to it.

This is why I love this place. Maybe not the whole fandom is like this, but that doesn't mean those things are okay. And it's nice that it can be shown that at least some fans can coexist peacefully in a friendly environment and without those things.

Also, glad with the ban log decision. I admit I'm just someone who values information above all else, but I'm sure quite a lot of confusion will be avoided in the future with this.

[Aba Matindesu!]

/slowpoke maybe, but didn't some of this confusion arise from how we sometimes (often?) referred to our beloved 2hus as "lolis" for laughs? Then some people got the wrong idea and may have crossed the line...

That being said, at least the rules and stuff are clear now. I love how civil and adaptive MotK is :derp:

[Tengukami]

/slowpoke maybe, but didn't some of this confusion arise from how we sometimes (often?) referred to our beloved 2hus as "lolis" for laughs? Then some people got the wrong idea and may have crossed the line...

I'm sure that's been the case for some people, just as I'm sure a great many of the people using the word "loli" are unaware of its connotations. I mean I have seen, at least, people using this word to just mean "little girl". But the word means what it does, and the connotations can't really be escaped, not least of all when using this word can be taken as some kind of signal that it's totally OK to get explicit about "lolis" and such.

I would say I feel strongly about this having a young daughter myself, but honestly, the whole "loli" thing has squicked me out long before I became a dad.

[Caterpie]

The same goes for words like 'rape' and 'fag', which have a tendency to be thrown around casually a lot. There is absolutely no reason to use them and in the vast majority of the time the person using those words out of context are doing so just to be oh-so-edgy while those words have a lot more heavy implications than what they are saying they do.

The word "rape" being tossed around is the reason why I don't come on these forums very often.

[Zil]

Is it really used that much? Can't say I see it. Like at all.

I'm always a bit surprised at how ubiquitous "loli" is though.

[Tengukami]

I noticed its use drop off around 2010 or so, largely due to enough people asking for it to stop. And it's not like people were exactly fighting for the right to say it, either, so it worked out well for everyone, I think.

[Omba]

I'm always a bit surprised at how ubiquitous "loli" is though.

Not only is it shorter than saying "cute little girl", it also sounds less blatantly creepy. It's no wonder it gets used.

[Stuffman]

I'm always a bit surprised at how ubiquitous "loli" is though.

It's kind of funny because barely anyone in touhou can be considered a loli at all; most of them, when drawn realistically, are shown to be in their late teens, and the ones that aren't are still effectively adults who live on their own and can take care of themselves.