Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival [last updated 2015-4-6]

[Mino ☆]

Added Zen's FinalB LNN to the list.

I've also decided to add SOC's and seto's LNMNB runs to the list as well. I put a note of what last spells they failed. As I think that they should still be put in the list, instead of the close calls. Since last spells are bonuses anyway.

[Karisa]

I'm still not sure why a failed last spell would be considered different from a border break (something that I've never seen support for allowing). It still fits the title of this thread (which I noticed you changed to reflect your new definition), but unlike, say, a UFO summon, it still involves getting hit. A border break actually has less effect than a failed last spell, since you still have to play out the rest of the pattern.

I guess the definition should be up to the survival players, as opposed to people like me who prefer to watch scoreruns anyway, but this seems pretty inconsistent to me.

[Mino ☆]

Border breaks themselves can be used and abused throughout the game. Counting runs with border breaks would be silly, since they can and have been used often in PCB LNN runs. Border Breaks can effectively destroy the later half of the game. You can break a border on practically every Youmu and Yuyuko attack (and completely annihilate just about every wave of Resurrection Butterfly).

Last spells have a possibility of not being activated (though it's not usually going to happen in an LNN attempt). Plus, I think that the Last Spells are more trouble than they're worth. Your lives and bombs disappear during them, and they're practically just there for a significant score bonus. I feel as if they were just an extension to the main game itself. We've agreed that timing out spells wasn't a penalty necessarily to the LNMNB condition. I just think it's a shame to put runs like SOC's which still LNMNB the main part of the game, in the close calls section. But that's just my opinion. I'm slightly biased, so other peoples' opinions would be nice.

I suppose it doesn't matter too much, since it'll be on the board anyway.

[Sakurei]

wow, are we actually doing with the nindentodonut definition? the way I see is like this:

you got hit, it's a miss. why wouldn't it count as one? because you don't lose any lives? then a borderbreak shouldn't be counted either. congratz mino, you already have your ~perfect~ run.
Karisa got it pretty good. you get hit during a border and it's a close call, you get hit on an attack you can't lose any lives and it's still NMNB? that doesn't make any sense to me. where you lose the life or not doesn't really matter, you couldn't dodge, it's a miss. miss stands for mistake, you know? it's a mistake not capturing the spellcard you are facing. (by gett hit, anyway)

[chum]

Zil got hit in his run, too.

[Karisa]

I don't understand why Zil's is on there, either, aside from that it was probably included because a PoDD "perfect" is effectively impossible.

Even then, "perfect" in games where taking damage is possible often seems to be defined as not taking damage anyway (to my impression at least), when it's not something unrelated like 100% items collected, so no-damage with bombs/hypers might be closer than no-bombs with damage taken. That's more debatable, though.

[Mero]

it's a mistake not capturing the spellcard you are facing. (by gett hit, anyway)

Agreed, I haven't watched either replay, so I don't know how they failed Reimu's last spell (I suppose a timeout would be reasonable), but you can only fail Kaguya's last spells by getting hit, so they still got a miss, even if they aren't directly affected by it

[cactu]

I don't think runs that have mistakes such as failing last spells in IN should be included in this thread other than the close calls, for the same reason that border breaks are not allowed. A better question than that in my opinion is whether a run with a timed out spellcard (on purpose or not) should be allowed, since it's not a full capture run.

/Edit: I personally think timeouts should be allowed as well, just marked as such.

[Sakurei]

While a full capture (that doesn't die sillily on stages) is a NMNB, so can be a run that isn't full capture. I think it was ASL's TD run where he was forced to time out the penultimate spellcard because the RNG didn't let him capture it. It's not really a mistake of ASL. Why would it not count as a NMNB? He didn't die (i.e make a mistake) nor did he bomb.
Sure, you could argue that it's not ~perfect~, but there is no perfect run anyway, so it's like w/e.
A similar thing with the SA NMNB that timed out midboss Orin in stage 5. It doesn't capture all spellcards due to catwalk being skipped, but it, in my opinion, led to a massive improvment of gameplay quality.

So yeah, timeout are fine in my eyes, getting hit isn't.

As for Zil's PoDD run - it's arguable whether it should be called NMNB, but as far as I understand you don't really die by getting hit once (or twice), so it's not really a miss. Of course, that might just be me speaking as a Zil fanboy or something, but that's just my take on it. The system in both PoDD and PoFV is so different anyway, that counting them as NMNBs (regardless of things) seems a bit weird to me.

[chum]

I was only playing devil's advocate anyway, there aren't really any standards for PoDD, and Zil never did lose a round, so acknowledging his run seems like the right thing to do. It's debatable, of course, but I don't think It's exactly fair to apply the same criteria to the VS games. If someone was to do a no hits/no bomb run, then I think the run with hits could be removed.

On the other hand, putting those IN runs where the player got hit alongside runs where the player never got hit, was definitely wrong. As far as I know, a hit is regarded as a  "miss" in IN regardless of where it occurs, and these runs where the player missed do not fit the criteria, nor do they belong alongside the runs where the player didn't miss. The previous approach was perfect as NDNB runs with failed last spells are definitely worthy of recognition.

[Zil]

Here's my opinion.

The term "perfect" should never be used under any circumstances. Just literally describe the runs by what happened in them.

To "miss" is to lose a life. If a shmup gives you some way of getting hit that doesn't take a life away (health in things like Guwange, PoDD/FV, hits that power you down like GFW, Gunbird 2, shields in things like Gradius, PCB, etc.) then that's not a miss.

As for what to include in this thread, theoretically any NMNB run could go in, but excluding things based on the fact that there are more impressive runs makes sense to me as well. I don't care very much, but truthfully I would prefer that any NMNB run be included. It's not like there's such a vast ocean of them that we're terribly inconvenienced by including the less impressive ones. That's just the completionist in me speaking.

[Mino ☆]

Firstly. The reason I think Border Breaks should be excluded is because you get them all over the game and they can be abused to cheese multiple attacks.

Secondly. Although you got hit, it's just bonus. It does count for spellcard captures, but I'm not sure why they matter too much anyway. This isn't the "~PERFECT~" thread anymore. Although there are some exceptions like excluding border breaks and trances.

This may be my biased nature speaking, but I find Last spells way too stressful. If I were to get a LNMNB of IN, mine would probably fail a last spell (Reisen's most likely). Which would make me feel bad for it to just be in the close calls section.

I put a mark beside the runs which have failed Last spells to indicate that they did fail a last spell. That's what separates the all cap runs from the last spell failed runs.

[Mino ☆]

Well I decided to just move the runs back to the close calls.

It's apparent that the majority of people don't want them to be on the "perfect list".

They'll still be featured on the board anyway.

I'll be going for FinalA anyway, so I'll only have to worry about Reisen and Eirin/Kaguya's last spell anyway.

[Ranko Hoshino]

Here are videos for the IN Magic Team and Scarlet Team replays.

Magic Team: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAupXgBf3Ss

Scarlet Team: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMlT91btY2k

As an added note, the MAlice Cannon glitch is used a decent amount of times during the Magic Team run. Notable uses are during midboss and boss fights.

[Mino ☆]

Been sick lately, but I got around to updating.

Added your videos, Ranko.

[Mino ☆]

And suddenly Denpa gets a LNMNB! Updated!

[Ranko Hoshino]

I wonder if Denpa will be recording the replay or if I should, though I'd need to work out a little blurry trouble with OBS. At least it doesn't give me random lag Camtasia does.

[MTSranger]

Excuse my super super ignorance, where is Denpa's entry in the first post? found it

[Ranko Hoshino]

Denpa did record the run himself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCVBgNaAaSs

[Mino ☆]

Added くらげ's SA MarisaA LNN to the list.

[Mero]

Added くらげ's SA MarisaA LNN to the list.

Always nice to see ReimuA take a break :V

pretty neat MAlice Cannon strats on Orin too

[Karisa]

I'm not sure it's a MAlice effect as much as taking advantage of the way the options switch positions between focused and unfocused. The repeated focusing keeps them in the center, to allow the vertical side options to both hit at once when they normally couldn't.

Still an interesting trick, that I don't think I've seen in SA WRs before.

[Ranko Hoshino]

Here's my recording of the SA Marisa A run.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OcN2S-vYxg

[Mino ☆]

Decided to upload my close call to Youtube.

[Mino ☆]

Found a random ReimuB MoF LNN run by sui_clo from 2011 that was sitting around on Royalflare. Added to the list.

[Critz]

I suppose there's no dedicated equivalent to Royalflare or any other search method when it comes to finding those perfect survival replays? I love to watch that top-tier dodging, multiple option-dependant approaches and stage 4 gimmicks.

[Mino ☆]

Added EOH's SA Close call (death at Cat Walk)

EDIT: Also added coa's 1MNB DDC Lunatic (ReimuA, died to Kagerou's second spell).

[Ranko Hoshino]

Recorded and uploaded hayamin's PCB ReimuB run

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZttB9lAT_jw

[Mino ☆]

Added EOH's SA LNN to the list~

[Mino ☆]

Added EOH's TD LNNN. He's on fire~