Is touhou suppose to be so goddamn hard?

[leo412]

New to Touhou series, just started yesterday playing Double Dealing Characters.

First stage: :3 Not as hard as others said~ No problem~
Second stage:  Still manageable, lost one life
Third stage:  WTF

And What does Sakuya spell card do? It just changed the screen colour?

[Mr Jovial]

Yeah, most bullet hell shoot em up games are incredibly difficult when you first start playing. My first attempts at Ten Desires ended at Stage 3
It also depends on what difficulty you're playing on. If you're new to the genre, then you should probably stick to easy or normal for obvious reasons. Double Dealing Character does get difficult on stage 3 so its normal to struggle there. Sakuya's bombs have different effects depending on which shot type you use (A or B):

Sakuya A's bomb autocollects all items on screen, clears bullets around you and gives you a barrier that will shield you from a hit. Get hit and it'll clear the screen of bullets and not cost you a life. Don't get hit for its duration (10 seconds) and you'll get half of a bomb refunded.

Sakuya B's bomb (based on "changed the screen colour I'm guessing you're using this character, the hardest character to use for survival by the way  :V) inverts screen colours, freezes time and turns all bullets on screen into point items.

Neither of these bombs do any damage though. Most people see Reimu A, Sakuya A and Marisa B as the easiest characters to use, the first 2 for their high damage and homing shot and the latter for her bomb, which converts bullets into items which can then be autocollected for life and bomb shards.

Since it's a hard game, don't be put off by lots of failures but don't force yourself to play either. Not everyone has the patience to succeed in this game. If you need help with playing the game, then ask in the thread this link takes you too. Have fun! And don't go insane.

PS: Anyone else reading this, please add anything I might have missed

EDIT: This thread is probably also very useful, covers some essential techniques that you may or may not know already.

[CyberAngel]

Welcome to bullet hell, one of the most hardcore niche genres around. Don't get surprised about getting demolished when you're just starting, it requires quite a bit of skill. But with some patience and desire to learn, it's quite possible to get much better at it. It won't be easy, but these games sure are fun when you're getting better at them.

That said, DDC may be a bit too complicated a game to get started. Too many gimmicks in attacks (ESPECIALLY stage 5). You may want to consider getting a simpler game to start with, like Mountain of Faith or Embodiment of Scarlet Devil. Imperishable Night might be good too, I find it has the easiest Easy Mode.

[sweetings]

You have to practice. A lot.
Unless you have natural talents, there's no way around it.
Use stage practice, watch replays of people better than you, realize your mistakes after you make them.
Do not spend credits until you are knowledgeable of every part of the game.

Sadly, the people that complain about the difficulty are the same people that regard practicing as a chore.

[Drake]

Use stage practice, watch replays of people better than you, realize your mistakes after you make them.
Do not spend credits until you are knowledgeable of every part of the game.

this isn't really possible unless somebody gives you a score file

[Mesarthim]

This reminds me back when I first started Touhou, playing and semi sucking at Imperishable Night Easy, having one life and like 3 bombs to beat Kaguya. But then I went and practiced and beat Mokou despite only having played on easy at the time. Then I cranked it up to normal for all games, then hard, and then "some" lunatic.

Some patterns are more punishing than others. Some people also better at dodging certain patterns than others. Me? I'm abysmal at Keine's General Headquarter's crisis and Lunatic Legend of Gensokyo.

tl;dr Read other people's strategies and hints, watch videos, and practice a lot.  I used to be pretty crappy too but now I'm a hard mode and (in some games) a lunatic player.

[Burning Love]

Like one of our friends said, start with MOF or IN first. However, I would suggest that you start with Normal stage immediately rather than playing with Easy. What might kills you the most is the bullets raining down and the lack of deathbomb (or bombing as of general). Try playing Hard or Lunatic mode once in a while and you will notice that Normal is relatively easier.

On the side-note, I'm still mediocre at Touhou fighting games.

[Kosachi]

Like with anything else, play the living hell out of the game. Skill and experience will only come with time, so the more time you commit to the game, the better you'll become. Like those above me said, DDC might be a tad too gimmicky to be a first game, so I would suggest starting with Embodiment of the Scarlet Devil as its lack of hitbox will teach you to "feel" your hitbox instead of having to look for it all the time; and the difficulty is not off the charts.

[Raekuul]

This reminds me back when I first started Touhou, playing and semi sucking at Imperishable Night Easy, having one life and like 3 bombs to beat Kaguya. But then I went and practiced and beat Mokou despite only having played on easy at the time.

I salute you.

Don't be afraid to lose. All those videos you see of people getting No Miss No Bomb No Border Break No Trance No Items Final Destsination are of people who have failed a thousand times for each stage they clear.

Don't be afraid to try higher difficulties, and don't be afraid to use continues. Everything else, from knowing your hitbox to knowing whether bombing or dying is more beneficial (hint - usually the first one) will come with practice and with time, but only if you are not afraid to lose.

[I have no name]

Me, right now: working on Mountain of Faith lunatic no bombs and generally getting more consistent at Double Spoiler
Me, a year ago: working on Mountain of Faith extra no death no bomb (and just clearing lunatic for the first time!) and unable to clear all the scenes in Double Spoiler
Me, 2 years ago: trying out and barely making it through IN lunatic with max lives and unable to get beyond Stage 3 in Double Spoiler
Me, when I first started out: THIS GAME IS IMPOSSIBLE EASY MODE IS NOT EASY AFDSFADSFDASFD

The only way to get better is to keep playing.  Become more familiar with the patterns, both the common ones that show up all the time and the specific ones to each game, stage and boss.  Get comfortable with the movement speeds and make the character an extension of you, so that you aren't thinking about the inputs to move the character but simply moving the character.
Most importantly, don't be afraid to use every resource at your disposal.  Continues for unlocking stages?  Do it.  (I did it with UFO lunatic, and though I still haven't cleared it's mostly for lack of trying, as I can definitely do it off the practice runs of each stage-without continue-spamming to get through the later stages, I would be nowhere near clearing).
Bombs?  YES!  The game gives them to you for a reason.  If you get overwhelmed, use a bomb.  When you run out, try to dodge.  Save no bomb challenges for when you're more familiar with the game and can dodge its patterns, or stage practice where there's nothing to lose for trying to dodge.
Higher difficulties, patches to increase difficulty or gamespeed?  If you feel up for it, yes!  Trying to play slightly above your skill level definitely helps!  I started out with IN with score files already unlocked and the first big things I did were all geared towards spell practice-which did include unlocking a few last spells to unlock last words and such.  Was I hopelessly outmatched?  Yes.  Was it still fun?  Yes, yes it was, and it was a valuable learning experience.

Above all though, try not to get too discouraged or offput by difficulty spikes.

You have to practice. A lot. True!
Unless you have natural talents, there's no way around it. False!  You can just play for fun and not care about results, and those with natural talents for the games still have to hone them with practice!
Use stage practice, watch replays of people better than you, realize your mistakes after you make them. True!  This is helpful, thogh I find people around your skill level to be a bit more helpful than watching, say, Jaimers LNB DDC for how to handle certain parts.
Do not spend credits until you are knowledgeable of every part of the game. Horrible idea.  Just play the game and get a feel for it. Besides, all you're putting in is time, and honestly, is that really such a big deal?  (also, when I cleared Subterranean Animism on lunatic it was the first run I had that didn't die before midboss Parsee-I was flying blind through all of Stage 3-6 and cleared via knowing when to bomb and when to try to dodge)

Short version:  Yes, these games are hard.  But they're very rewarding if you put a little time into them.  Welcome to the community

[Sakurei]

been lurking the thread since yesterday and actually first wanted to post "yes" and b done with it, but I think I'll post something more serious.

yes, they're supposed to be hard. no they're not that hard to clear once you are familiar with them. as I have no name said, you get better as you practice and get a feel for the various things that happen in the shmup and things you have to utilize. a few people have already said that you will need to practice a lot - there is no way around it. Of course, some people learn faster than others, that's what we call nautral talent. that doesn't mean you don't have to practice. that'd be a silly assumption. it's what IHNN said. even if you have shittons of talons, you still have to practice a lot to put them into a run.

watch replays. this has also been said, but it's important, especially if you're having trouble with a certain part of the game. or (if you ever got into it) scoring strats. I don't want to imagine how it feels to make a scoring route all on your own, especially for more complicated games like PCB. oh right, resources. use them. bombspamming is not a bad habit. if you want to clear a game for the first time, don't think about how awesome it would be to capture that one tough spellcard. drop a bomb on it. you can always work on improving from there. I think this is something very important that a lot of people disregard. I have seen it that people discourage the use of bombs, which is dumb. why would you limit them? use them to the fullest. if you happen to run out of bombs, you can still always try to dodge as best as you can.
another thing is: use stage practice - all the time. seriously. there is no need to play the first 4 stages to practice one section in stage 5. that'd be tedious and is something you do in arcades. fuck that. use the tools you have efficiently. don't ponder. just fucking do it. feel free to creditfeed the game to unlock the stages. that's what everyone does and it's fine. personally, I suspect why ZUN implemented the multi-credit system in the first place.

One last thing: being in a community helps tremendously. You can ask here for advice - better players will usually have it. You have easy access to replays to watch, as well as people you might look up and catch up to. use the community to your advantage. it can only have advantages.

[Zil]

FOOLS! YOU'LL NEVER GET ANYWHERE WITHOUT MASTERING THE ART OF DEATHBOMBING!!

[vctrz]

You need to be naturally talented. Just ask Sakurei.

[Tengukami]

As with just about anything, improvement of skill comes from practice and study. In Touhou's case, I recommend spamming continues to unlock stages for Stage Practice and Spell Card Practice (where available), studying replays of better players, studying replays of your screw-ups to look for your strengths and weaknesses, and sharing such replays with this community to get some pointers.

Overall, it's just about doing it and doing it and doing it.

[Szayelaporro Granz]

FOOLS! YOU'LL NEVER GET ANYWHERE WITHOUT MASTERING THE ART OF DEATHBOMBING!!

If you're playing for survival, that is. Some games give penalty for deathbombing. Look at me, I don't 1cc DDC extra yet just because I'm not very good at proper bombing T_T

DDC is meant to be a simple game, yet it has one of the worst stage 5 gimmicks in entire Touhou Most characters are also tricky to use. The patterns are also pretty hard, but the amount of supplies you can get in this game compensates that. EoSD is probably the best game to start since it has no particular gimmick and the difficulty is right at the middle. It doesn't show your hitbox so it teaches you how to "feel" your hitbox. IN and TD are the easiest Touhou shmups, so you might also want to start with them. SA is brutal, but grazing is more rewarding here. For character, homing Reimu is obviously the most beginner-friendly. If you use SakuyaA for DDC though, toggle shift so that most of the knifes won't stuck at the same small fry.

For the final words, as everyone says here, Touhou is all about lots of practice, watching replays, knowing your limits and... patience. I hope I'm helping enough and good luck in the wonderful world of bullet hell

[Tengukami]

DDC is meant to be a simple game, yet it has one of the worst stage 5 gimmicks in entire Touhou

Objectively false. :colbert:

[Cheez8]

Hey, DDC Stage 5 is cool. It's just a different challenge to overcome, and even though it's entirely fair it does kind of make DDC a not-so-good choice for a first Touhou game. Personally, I'd recommend PCB since that was my first Touhou game it's very straightforward about how you dodge things and get extra lives, and every so often the game will surprise you by giving you a free bomb out of nowhere.

I struggled with Easy Mode too for a while, but trying to beat it over and over didn't really get me much progress, so I switched to Normal mode. Even though it was clear I wasn't going to beat that either, it was a good idea- after doing that a while, I switched back to Easy Mode, and I got a lot farther than I used to. You will too, so do stuff like that.

(I also throw myself into PoFV Lunatic here and there to train myself on raw dodging, but please don't do that too eagerly. It's probably unhealthy.)

[Zil]

I don't see what's wrong with starting out in DDC. Unless you're really just saying Seiga is so bad she ruins the whole game.

And PoFV Lunatic is perfectly healthy. You should quit everything else and just play that instead.

[Mr Jovial]

And PoFV Lunatic is perfectly healthy. You should quit everything else and just play that instead.

Zil-sama~
You're so pushy~
And PoDD is objectively superior to PoFV in my opinion :derp:

[SirSlarty]

Yes, it's supposed to be hard. It's the genre of the game!

Here's some personal experience from a newbie:
I've only been actively playing Touhou for about five months. I have a few 1cc's.... on easy. It took lots and lots of practice and effort to get them.

Started out with IN and TD, looking back, yes, those were easy but I learned the patterns and plugged away at them. Spellcard practice helped a ton. Same with DDC which is REALLY fun to play, in my opinion, including Seija's gimmick.

UFO and SA were worth it to finally complete. STAGE PRACTICE STAGE PRACTICE STAGE PRACTICE!!!!!! Orin and Shou were the most difficult bosses I've beaten yet.

[Szayelaporro Granz]

I don't see what's wrong with starting out in DDC. Unless you're really just saying Seiga is so bad she ruins the whole game.

Honestly, I think it doesn't really matter which is your first Touhou game as long as it doesn't differ too much from the general gameplay. I was stupid enough to have GFW as my first Touhou :V

[Zengeku]

I don't see what's wrong with starting out in DDC. Unless you're really just saying Seiga is so bad she ruins the whole game.

I should start counting how many times people mix up Seiga and Seija.

[Szayelaporro Granz]

I should start counting how many times people mix up Seiga and Seija.

I lol'd. Btw it seems ZUN started recycling stuffs. Seiga and Seija are both potrayed as wicked. Stage 1 has Cirno as midboss just like in PCB. DDC stage 4 seems to be a rehash of PCB stage 4 (sky as location, instruments as boss). DDC also uses 2 locations from previous games, Misty Lake and Bamboo Forest of Lost.

PS: Goddamn it, I'm going off-topic :derp:

[Mr Jovial]

I should start counting how many times people mix up Seiga and Seija.

I admit to not noticing that mistake. Now what do I win for being honest?

Still surprised about how many people started with easy and struggled as much as I did with normal  :wat:. I'm sure I didn't spend more than a month going for my first 1cc (even if it was TD).

Also surprised that no one even mentioned the importance of actually enjoying playing the game. Seems like if you're forcing yourself to play to get better, you should just take a break or find something you do enjoy. I personally dislike using stage practice and just keep going for 1ccs instead. Only resorted to stage practice very occasionally and only for specific things like IN Stage 5's opening fairy. Also did it for my first 2 1ccs. Ignoring stage practice might not be the best thing to do if you're struggling but it's probably better than not enjoying playing.

[Cheez8]

I don't see what's wrong with starting out in DDC. Unless you're really just saying Seiga is so bad she ruins the whole game.

Nah, it's more that I'm not really convinced somebody who's still getting used to the amount of bullets onscreen as early as Stage 3 needs to get used to swapping their controls on the fly right away too.

And yeah, Jovial's right. Just take the advice that you'll enjoy taking. (Kinda hoped that was obvious.)

[FleetingGaze]

As most have confirmed, the difficulty is most definitely up there. This isn't something you just jump into and immediately dominate. I didn't really try to play for score or style until I started getting really good...all of my runs before that were just playing and enjoying the game and the music. I was motivated by the music and character interactions to get through the games/get better. Certain moments are amazing and the music gives it that extra edge that makes experiences memorable, like UFO stage 5, PCB's stage 4, and stage 2 in MoF, just to point out some. When I first got into Touhou, I was playing to find out when Necrofantasia played...so out of all the songs and extra boss themes to pick from, I ended up picking the only phantasm boss. Go figure. Yet I was that much more motivated to beat Ran and even unlock Phantasm.

You decide whether or not to watch replays. I personally wouldn't watch any extra boss footage where the player got past a non-spellcard/spellcard that I had not yet. I'd only watch footage of things that I've done, just because I want to experience them on my own without prior knowledge. (Which meant that Ultimate Buddhist, Honest Man's Death, Maze of Love and a few others just outright wrecked me.) When I was able to do Lunatic-level playthroughs, I started really watching replays.

Play a lot. Then some more. Switch games a lot. Practice random stages just for records/fun. Pick your favorite shottype and go into spell practice. Find what you like and do it.

[Raekuul]

As far as Stage Practice goes, I sometimes use it but more often don't. It largely depends on if I find myself having a mental block on the stage in the context of a full run (see: PCB stage 3 and MoF stage 4, both of which I can now handle with relative ease - though Alice still gets me with Foggy London from time to time and I've never gotten to Stage 4 of MoF on Normal in one credit)

That said, if you find yourself dying a lot on a given stage, it's well worth it to continue and unlock the stage for stage practice.

As far as playing for score versus not playing for score, I partially disagree. EoSD, PoFV and MoF in particular, as well as the PC98 games, tie extends to score. If you don't know how to score effectively, you won't get very far. PCB is a bit more relaxed, but the Cherry system is a bit at odds with surviving at times since the most reliable way to gain border points is to stick to unfocused shooting (but at the same time it's the best way to safely collect point items, which is how you get extends).

(And since when is TD easy? I had a 1cc in SA before I even got to stage 6 of TD)

((Oh, and I have issues with both Seiga and Seija)

[Raikaria]

I lol'd. Btw it seems ZUN started recycling stuffs. Seiga and Seija are both potrayed as wicked. Stage 1 has Cirno as midboss just like in PCB. DDC stage 4 seems to be a rehash of PCB stage 4 (sky as location, instruments as boss). DDC also uses 2 locations from previous games, Misty Lake and Bamboo Forest of Lost.

PS: Goddamn it, I'm going off-topic :derp:

ZUN is also more aware of the fanbase and it's loyalty and attachment to older characters and locations. ZUN's said he wants to link 7~9 with 10~12 better too; as atm they were basically different arcs with abandoned characters like PC-98, with a couple of exceptions with the options from 11.

Besides; there can only be so many locations in Gensokyo. Why add ANOTHER forest just for a Werewolf? He recycled locations and characters in 13 too; like Kogasa; Nue and Yuyuko.

And honestly considering Cirno's been in 6; 7; 9; 12.3 and 12.8 as the main character; she's kinda a main character by this point and it shouldn't be a shock she showed up in 14.

As for Touhou being hard; it's suposed to be, it's in the genre; but for the genre it's actually on the easier side. Personally; I'm bad too; and can't clear DDC; so I would suggest the games I have cleared as entry points, which would be 8 [Imperishable Night], 10 [Mountain of Faith] and 13 [Ten Desires]

Also as a general rule of thumb, Reimu shottypes are the easiest to clear the game with; either due to a good mixture of spread and focused attacks; or homing attacks,; mixed with good bombs and the slightly smaller hitbox she has in most games. [Ironically I didn't clear IN with the Reimu shot type though. I've cleared it with Marise+Alice and Sakuya+Remilia... because I'm awful at fighting the Marisa boss.]

[cactu]

As far as playing for score versus not playing for score, I partially disagree. EoSD, PoFV and MoF in particular, as well as the PC98 games, tie extends to score. If you don't know how to score effectively, you won't get very far.

Isn't it the other way though? In 6 and 10 you will get all of the extends very easily, since the required score is so low you will almost always get 60m or 150m whatever you do. However in other games you actually need to focus on gathering  items.

[I have no name]

I know when I was starting out I was failing to get the 150 million extend in MoF, and the 60 million extend usually came somewhere during Remilia :V