Author Topic: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom  (Read 55094 times)

Kosachi

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #90 on: October 08, 2013, 12:44:12 PM »
For example, the situation with Mike (Gabe) of Penny Arcade would fall under this. His original comment may not be provably considered malicious, but his followup actions would easily pass the standards of malice or intimidation. He demeaned and attacked people who tried to correct him and pointed people out for ridicule and shame.

An ignorant comment by itself would be hard to prove as actionable unless depraved indiffence could be shown by a history of similar comments, or if the nature of the comment would pass the standard of malice or intimidation to a judge or jury.
That's the rub, it's a lot easier to sanction someone's actions, especially when that someone is a rather large figure (Gabe). What about that one person who spews garbage on the street just to be an asshat? It would be very hard to prove any ill intent when saying words because what they thought is theirs and theirs alone. There's no real way to prove/disprove thought. (Unless there's a thought police but I firmly believe humanity should stay as far away from '1984' as possible).

Looking at someone's prior history would be a solution, but I see two little problems with that. One, where do you draw the line between malicious and ignorant? If someone has never seen or heard of anything trans related, the idea may seem completely foreign to him/her which would lead to them saying things that would definitely come across as malicious, but with education, that person will have a very different outlook. This is the textbook example of ignorance, yet the opposite is in evidence. Second, what if someone is completely reformed, yet several years after their last incident, they makes an accidental faux pas. They would face legal apprehension for something they didn't even know they did. That seems just a tad too unfair in my eyes.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 12:45:50 PM by Kosachi »
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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #91 on: October 08, 2013, 02:48:45 PM »
I think it should go without saying that the most important thing for preventing bigotry is increasing awareness and education. There are boundaries the law simply cannot cross, and even if it were realistically possible to prevent people from acting on their bigotry, they may remain bigots at heart, and that's no kind of solution. Not to say that existing laws don't have lots of room for improvement when it comes to preventing bullying and shit (nor am I saying they're completely ineffective). It's that it's difficult since there's not much you can do to prevent someone from abusing their freedoms short of simply taking the freedoms away from them.

Something tangential I meant to ask about earlier:
  • Freedom to participate on the proper gendered sports teams (whether funded publicly in schools and rec leagues or private entities with public oversight such as boxing commissions)
Just how would this work? Aren't the current separations in place for biological reasons?

Mocking Morning

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #92 on: October 08, 2013, 05:35:30 PM »

Something tangential I meant to ask about earlier:Just how would this work? Aren't the current separations in place for biological reasons?

Very much so. Take (US) football for an example, could a female quarterback withstand a full contact sack from a 350lb defensive lineman and be able to play afterwards?
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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #93 on: October 08, 2013, 06:16:51 PM »
Very much so. Take (US) football for an example, could a female quarterback withstand a full contact sack from a 350lb defensive lineman and be able to play afterwards?
Well, I know some pretty thin and physically weak guys, and some pretty buff and powerfully strong women. Whether or not someone can take a hit in a football game has everything to do with their physique and mindset, rather than their genitalia. Just throwin' that out there, here in the 21st century.

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #94 on: October 08, 2013, 08:06:59 PM »
Also keep in mind women's sports are still growing; Title IX has been effective for barely 41 years for instance. There are Football Leagues for women, they just get no media attention because, you know, they're not running around in their underwear. ::)

Also, there's a societal bias against women's sports in the USA (and I'd imagine almost the whole world). They are seen as inferior, boring, and not worth the same resources that male sports get. They are the butt of jokes everywhere, from cartoons to comedians. The only respected women's team I can think of off the top of my head is the US Women's National [Soccer] Team; and they had to win 2 of the first 3 World Cups and recently score a miracle goal against Brazil to even be a blip on many people's radar.

Honestly, given the right circumstances, I do believe that one day women can compete with men even in football. The way the league is going (less violence) opens the door more than ever. It's just going to take a truly gifted, driven, hard-working individual who plays the sport from a young age and develops through their young life. That's something that I don't believe we've seen yet because I don't believe they are truly given the opportunity to do so (correct me if I'm wrong).

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helvetica

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #95 on: October 08, 2013, 08:11:34 PM »
That's the rub, it's a lot easier to sanction someone's actions, especially when that someone is a rather large figure (Gabe). What about that one person who spews garbage on the street just to be an asshat? It would be very hard to prove any ill intent when saying words because what they thought is theirs and theirs alone. There's no real way to prove/disprove thought. (Unless there's a thought police but I firmly believe humanity should stay as far away from '1984' as possible).

Looking at someone's prior history would be a solution, but I see two little problems with that. One, where do you draw the line between malicious and ignorant? If someone has never seen or heard of anything trans related, the idea may seem completely foreign to him/her which would lead to them saying things that would definitely come across as malicious, but with education, that person will have a very different outlook. This is the textbook example of ignorance, yet the opposite is in evidence. Second, what if someone is completely reformed, yet several years after their last incident, they makes an accidental faux pas. They would face legal apprehension for something they didn't even know they did. That seems just a tad too unfair in my eyes.
We have no problems interpreting intent when it comes to physical harm, why would emotional harm be any less different?

The slippery slope argument that "faux pas" and simple ignorance would get charged is that, just a fallacy. People don't get charged with assault if they accidentally hurt someone, unless it can be proven they did it through actual malice or depraved indifference. The concepts of "mens rea" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea) and "actus reus" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actus_reus) are applied successfully in criminal law every day, why would it be different with words? As far as "thought crimes" go, we charge people with sexual assault for people being creepers, even if the harm is purely emotional. Stalking is a chargeable crime, but if you're just walking near someone everyday by coincidence you wouldn't get charged for it. Intent to stalk has to be proven. I ask then, why would bullying not be OK to prosecute then? I would argue that bullying is a lot closer in nature to other crimes than people realize, and that we have no problems determining intent to separate malice from ignorance.


I think it should go without saying that the most important thing for preventing bigotry is increasing awareness and education. There are boundaries the law simply cannot cross, and even if it were realistically possible to prevent people from acting on their bigotry, they may remain bigots at heart, and that's no kind of solution. Not to say that existing laws don't have lots of room for improvement when it comes to preventing bullying and shit (nor am I saying they're completely ineffective). It's that it's difficult since there's not much you can do to prevent someone from abusing their freedoms short of simply taking the freedoms away from them.
I agree fully, which is why if we really want to tackle bullying, it's not just enough to punish bullies, but to remove the environment that raises bullies in the first place. Education and other public awareness programs, outreach programs to help in the childhood years. A lot of bullies become bullies because they themselves were bullied. It's a vicious cycle that needs to be broken, but it can't be broken just by punishing the bullies.

Quote
Something tangential I meant to ask about earlier:Just how would this work? Aren't the current separations in place for biological reasons?
A lot of it is outmoded thinking that thinks that girls are more fragile than boys and need to be protected and sheltered. While there are physiological differences that shouldn't be ignored, there's so much variety that it's very possible for a female bodied person to be just as strong as tough as any male. By continuing to segregate sports based on what body a person has, it keeps on reinforcing this notion that female bodies are inherently inferior. They're not, they can kick just as much ass as boys can, even in very male dominated sports (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/03/sports/girl-is-pioneer-at-quarterback-for-florida-high-school.html)

On top of that, people who don't fit the socially accepted definitions of a male or female body are caught in between. There's a lot of fear and mistrust that transgendered folk would have an unfair advantage if allowed to compete in their proper gender. It's medically false. Any advantage I have from testosterone is gone now that I'm on HRT. Without testosterone any additional muscle mass gained by it is lost. If it was a permanent gain people would dope once and that'd be it and not risk continuously taking steroids and getting caught. Excuses about "bone density" and gaining "extra leverage" from having a male-bodied skeletal structure is also bunk, as again, there's just as much variation in cisgendered folk. And even if a transgirl isn't taking hormones, it's very plausible she doesn't have as much testosterone as her female-bodied peers. Testosterone is present in everyone in various amounts, male or female bodied, and there's a strong connection to low or non-existent testosterone levels during development as a potential factor in transgenderism.

And then there's a further fallacy saying that guys would claim to be transgendered in order to compete and dominate in female sports. Umm no? It's the same illogical fear that makes people freak out about transgirls getting the right bathroom, that creepers would sneak in to peek and just claim to be trans. There's pretty much no documented cases of such. It's just another hurdle where transpeople need to "prove" they are who they are, when cisgendered persons do not. Nobody questions a cisgirl if she's a girl. And again, all this is doing is reinforcing the notion that guys are inherently superior to girls, and that girls need to be coddled and protected. Fuck that, girls are just as tough as guys are.

So one of two things needs to happen. My preferred solution, gender segregation needs to go away entirely. Any physiological differences that gender may bring are completely ignorant of individual variation. All it's doing is reinforcing stereotypes that one gender is physically weaker or inferior to the other. If gender segregation in sports are going to continue, then transpersons should be allowed to play in their proper gender as there's no medical reason to deny them. The psychological security gained by being able to participate in the proper gender is immense enough that the risk of "pretenders" sneaking in is so farcical in comparison.

e:

Honestly, given the right circumstances, I do believe that one day women can compete with men even in football. The way the league is going (less violence) opens the door more than ever. It's just going to take a truly gifted, driven, hard-working individual who plays the sport from a young age and develops through their young life. That's something that I don't believe we've seen yet because I don't believe they are truly given the opportunity to do so (correct me if I'm wrong).
Pretty much. Girls are told they're weaker so they're not given access to resources to prove that they're not. Even in "violent" sports like football it's pretty much 95% heart and 5% actual physical talent at the high school and even collegiate level. It's not until the pros that physical talents start to exceed drive, and even then physical talent can't carry you if you don't have the mindset for it, whereas the mindset can accelerate mediocre talent to superstar level. And to add onto that, activities that are truly female dominated, such as dance, are not even classified as sports by society (and I personally think, as an end around on Title IX). You can't tell me a ballet dancer doesn't have to be just as fit and athletic as any football player.

Girls don't exceed at sports not because they're inferior, but because they're told they're inferior and aren't given the opportunities. Girls who are talented at sports are ridiculed and harassed in society, and are told they're unattractive if they're built like a guy. They're told that being competitive is not feminine, that being tough and muscular is not feminine, and that being athletic to a female should be tiny and graceful, not big and stompy. Fuck that noise, girls can be just as tough and brutish as boys. And boys can be just as tiny and graceful as girls. The patriarchy cuts both ways too. Because girls are seen as inferior, boys who are interested in girl-dominated sports and activities like gymnastics are seen as weak. Fuck that, a guy in gymnastics is manly as fuck! A guy doing ballet is manly as fuck!
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 08:34:48 PM by helvetica »


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[⑨] Suzuran

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #96 on: October 13, 2013, 02:58:51 AM »
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2013/October/No-Recourse-for-Girls-Harassed-by-Transgender-Student/

Something tells me there's more to the story than is being reported here.

helvetica

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #97 on: October 13, 2013, 05:21:54 AM »
It's from the Christian Broadcasting Network, it's either mostly fabricated or they consider just being within the same building as a transgirl as harassment of some kind. They're probably demanding she get sequestered into a special needs school (a lot of gender nonconforming kids are often forced into going to separate schools usually reserved for special needs kids) and segregated from the rest of the normal school population for the "safety of the children".
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 05:24:49 AM by helvetica »


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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #98 on: October 13, 2013, 12:45:59 PM »
Not to mention that the group who filed the complaint, Pacific Justice Institute, is a conservative legal action group whose version of "religious freedom" is decidedly Christian and "rights of parents" means protecting children from the Gay Menace. Here's some of the cases they've been involved in. These guys are classic, mountain-out-of-molehill, War On Christmas conservatives.

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helvetica

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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


[⑨] Suzuran

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #100 on: October 17, 2013, 05:34:13 PM »
http://www.transadvocate.com/daily-news-pulls-story-examiner-prints-retraction-fox-news-keeps-the-lie-going.htm story was debunked as false btw.

Of course, it's Faux News, what did you expect?

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #101 on: October 19, 2013, 04:55:00 PM »
I think it should go without saying that the most important thing for preventing bigotry is increasing awareness and education.

This, full stop.  Trans people are so rarely treated with any degree of respect or tact in any media.  Up until my late teens I'd never even heard the term 'gender dysphoria,' but I'd seen the "haha that person's in a dress but they have a large adam's apple and a hairy chest" joke on TV and in movies probably dozens of times.

Though a decent sense of empathy and being able to accept mistakes is also necessary.  A lot of cis people I've seen get really bristly and defensive when they get corrected or politely told they asked something offensive, and then they refuse to admit it and make things worse.

[⑨] Suzuran

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #102 on: October 20, 2013, 03:56:40 PM »


I don't know what most of those are...

Edit: Link replaced, same content
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 05:04:54 PM by [⑨] Suzuran »

Tengukami

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #103 on: October 20, 2013, 05:16:51 PM »
Is there a question or comment here about this?

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #104 on: October 20, 2013, 06:42:11 PM »
I don't know what most of those are...
Or to make things easier, does ANYONE know what ALL of these are, without looking it up?

helvetica

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #105 on: October 20, 2013, 07:41:37 PM »
Gender and sexuality is a huge spectrum of different possibilities, and some people take very big pride in who they are and don't want to be forced into stereotypes.

That's the reason why trans* is an "umbrella" term that encompasses a wide variety of other concepts and identities. Because not everyone's narrative is a ______ trapped in the wrong body (transsexual). Some people love their bodies, they just want to be treated as the opposite gender in society (transgender). Some people don't align to either gender (genderqueer). Some people's genders are fluid and change significantly periodically (genderfluid). Some people have aspects of both genders (bigender) or do not feel as if they have aspects of either gender (androgyny). And some people were raised in a culture that is incompatible with the typical western gender binary (two-spirit, or third gendered people in some cultures). Some people only like to act in the opposite gender than they were born (drag queens/kings and crossdressers).

Same with sexuality. Gay and lesbian and bisexual does not hope to contain all or even some of the possibilities. Romantic feelings can be separate from sexual feelings. Some people like the companion of girls but are really into sex with other boys (hetero/homo romantic vs. homo/heterosexual). Some persons have no interest in sex but can and do get romantically entangled with people (asexual but not aromantic). Some people have no romantic feelings, it's all about sex (aromantic but not asexual). Some people only develop sexual feelings after a deep romantic relationship is formed (demisexual). And some people just don't care about the parts at all, it's the people they get sexual attractions to (pansexual vs bisexual).

Queer is used as an umbrella term for all sorts of identities that seem to "challenge" the cishetero norm. The problem is most people think LGBT includes everyone, when in reality it mostly covers the L and the G but very rarely the B and T. As it stands right now there's a specific narrative of lesbian and gay persons who are being pushed into society as "acceptable", and those who don't fit into the narrative are being told to quiet up and stay out of sight in order not to scare off the "normals" from supporting them. So queer was brought up as a replacement umbrella term to mean those that challenge the "norm" and the fight renamed to queer rights rather than gay rights or LGBT rights in order to be inclusive of all identities, not just the identities the majority accepts.


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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #106 on: October 22, 2013, 05:37:44 AM »
Or to make things easier, does ANYONE know what ALL of these are, without looking it up?

Only ones I didn't know were 'birl', 'pomosexual', and 'stone'.

(It is worth mentioning that some of those labels are completely redundant.)

helvetica

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #107 on: October 22, 2013, 02:57:11 PM »
Redundant maybe, but context matters. There's social meaning behind word choices and why people choose one label over another (aka the pop vs soda war). Just because a term is redundant for another one doesn't make it less valid. They could be raised in an area where those were the accepted terms for such behavior, or possibly they feel they identify more with people who use that term vs. people who don't, even if it's just a superficial distinction. There's a reason why there's numerous terms for an effeminate gay man: fairy, femme, etc. Some have negative connotations as well or may even be considered slurs in some cultures or areas, and the choice to not use a similar term may be based on escaping those connotations.

I call myself a gamer because I play games a lot and it's a core facet of my interests and my identity. Other people like to establish guidelines on who can and can't call themselves a gamer though. That's wrong though because who gets to decide who's a "true" gamer and who isn't? Who gets that authority? The same thing happens with gender and sexuality. Society is deciding what it means to be a boy or a girl or what have you, and then decides who's "fake" and who's "true". And that's no better. Neither is denying someone an identity because it's not a socially recognized or accepted identity.

It's important not to erase any part of someone's identity, no matter how insignificant it may seem to someone else. Just because it has no weight or sounds silly or excessive to some people doesn't make it silly or excessive to others.  It's best to respect and let people choose their own identities. Most are very aware of the social meaning behind the words they choose to identify themselves and are indeed looking to express those meanings. Even though medically I am a transgendered female, I do not use trans when I describe myself to other people. This is partially because I'm looking to escape some of the negative connotations associated with it I'll admit (which I'm trying to work myself away from), but mostly because I don't feel like I necessarily exist "outside" the spectrum of gender. I admit fully to being a pretty stereotypical female. I might have a few eclectic interests, but I don't consider those tied to gender like some people do. That doesn't mean I don't acknowledge my history or deny it if challenged, it just means it's not a part of my identity. It's not that I'm not proud of who I am or where I came from, it's more that at no point in my life was I ever identifying as a boy. I pretended to be one for a while to please others and avoid ridicule and harm, but I never felt like I was a boy. I was a girl from day one, and my life has been a struggle to get that recognition. I didn't cross from being a boy to being a girl, I was always a girl and I'm merely correcting my body to recognize this fact.

This doesn't mean that those that "did" cross have any less of an identity than I do, or are less male or female or what have you. Not at all! It just means I don't identify with their narratives as much. It'd be both poor form on my part to say my narrative is like theirs, as well as potentially silencing theirs because mine is the more socially acceptable one at this time. I still say I fit in the "trans*" umbrella medically, and I'll definitely announce my status in order to fight alongside for people who face similar social struggles that I did, but to say that my internal identity is anything like theirs belies their right to identify. That's why when people tell me they're genderqueer or bigender or whatever, or if they're proud of their trans status, I don't belittle them for it and say "why can't you just be a boy or a girl based on what parts you have or want, and accept you're feminine or masculine?". If a girl is proud of the fact she has what's considered male genitalia it doesn't make her body less female than someone who has female parts. If a gay guy likes dating transmen it doesn't make him less gay because some of his partners still have female anatomy. They may catch flak from their respective groups they attempt to identify with, but it's not necessarily that person's fault for choosing an identity that doesn't "mesh" with the norm. It's up to the "norm" to be inclusive of other unique identities.

I'm choosing not to identify as a transgirl not because I don't feel like I wouldn't fit in, but more so because I don't see it as a part of my identity. To me it's more of a medical quirk than a core facet of my identity, and while it has definitely shaped my life in terms of my experiences, I don't feel like my core identity would have changed if I was born a cisgirl. I do not say I'm better because I choose not to publicly embrace my status and call myself a "transgirl". Nor do I claim to be a cisgendered girl, that's a medical fact and would be asserting privilege based on the fact I could get away with that lie. I may have a little more privilege by passing better than most, but that's not really my fault. I do recognize it though and therefore stress recognition to those who may not have the privilege I do. I definitely am aware there's a lot of things other trans*persons deal with that I don't and probably never will because of how well I pass at times.

(Yay for taking sociolinguistics and its effect on gender this semester!)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 03:27:00 PM by helvetica »


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


helvetica

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #108 on: October 22, 2013, 04:00:07 PM »
That being said, it does suck that my narrative is seen as the more socially acceptable narrative simply because of my interchangeability with other cisgirls. I'm still not really challenging the gender binary with my existence. Because I always identified as a girl then that's cool, you're just helping poor me fix my body I was cursed with. But what about persons who were born, raised, and lived one gender and decided after a spin it wasn't for them? What's so wrong with that? There's this overwhelming pressure to want to "abandon" one's old life in order to fit the narrative that it was all a "mistake" and they're "correcting" it. Yes my body is a mistake, and I see it as a birth defect, but I'm not going to deny it changed the socialization I experienced. It did not socialize me purely male, I was still socialized female whether I was able to openly express it or not. That combination of being forced to pretend to be male, along with being shamed for being female did shape my identity in ways that I'm still unraveling. That being said, I do recognize that I've had experiences and interests nurtured I may not have had if I was born in a female body.

I'm way into computers and games since I was a child, and while this was kind of frowned upon for being "nerdy", it was never seen as not masculine. At the same time I've had a deep passion for ballet and other forms of dance and traditionally "female" sports that I was not allowed to express because those were seen as "girly" and inappropriate for boys. Had I been raised a girl I would have been allowed to pursue those interests and it's likely I would have been shamed for being into games and such a lot stronger than just being "nerdy", as those are the typical signals girls get from society. I've always shown an aptitude for science and mathematics, but had I shown difficulty it's likely I would have received significant tutoring and encouragement to develop those skills. Had I been presenting female though, it would have just been assumed that since I was a girl I was just going to be worse at it and I wouldn't have received any special attention. It's also likely I received the special attention that allowed me to not only excel, but surpass my peers significantly in math and science, because I was seen as a boy and by showing aptitude and interest I was given the nurturing to develop it. As a girl, even with the aptitude and interest, it's not necessarily a given I would have been encouraged, and it's possibly I might have been discouraged much like I was discouraged from ballet and gymnastics. I still definitely experiences the cues society gave in order to be "feminine", because I identified as a girl and wished to present and be regarded as such. And when I'm around peers or in groups where I'm known as male or forced to present male, I tend to "bro" it up in my speech and mannerisms simply to fit in more. It causes significant psychological and emotional stress though, which is why I'm trying very hard to sift through what's really me, and what I just pretended to do to fit in, and to limit what areas I have to present as male until I don't have to at all.

This is why even though I may not take my trans status as a personal identity, I still acknowledge it and do not skirt away from it if I am asked about it. It is also why I am an activist. Even though I may be in a marginalized class being trans, I'm still in the top cream of it because I was born with other favorable factors and privileges that shield me from some of the issues other trans*persons face. I feel it is my duty then, that even though I fit in the socially acceptable narrative, and at times, am even able to escape the identity of trans altogether in the crowd, to not deny it. I shouldn't get more recognition because I'm "unable" to control the fact I identified as female at such a young age, versus someone who's actively choosing to be male or female or what have you, for whatever reasons. My narrative is no more acceptable because it's more of a medical issue than a philosophical choice, as is the tendency to frame the debate when queer rights comes up. People like to make the argument that homosexuality should be accepted because "they can't help it", well what if someone chooses to be gay? Why does it even matter if someone chooses versus if it's innate? Why is it only acceptable when someone can't help it, they're just wired that way? That to me sounds more like trying to appeal to the masses and water down narratives to a socially acceptable cliche, at the cost of marginalizing those who don't strictly fit it. How is this any better than the status quo right now?

When I came out to my parents, I did not initially stress the fact that I knew there's a biological reason for my gender and sexual dysphoria, because I felt like if that was the way to get them to accept me, then they weren't truly accepting me for who I am. I've brought it up now after several debates about the "authenticity" of my feelings, as they like to pin it on some sort of childhood trauma or bad parenting I just need to get over. They like to stress it's still a choice, but to me there is no choice because the outcomes dictate an obvious and logical course of action. The choice isn't between whether to be a boy or a girl, but whether to be a functional and useful person (who's a girl), or a dysfunctional waste of space (who's a boy). There was never any question about my identity, my mental struggles have been against the emotional and psychological harm that's been inflicted both externally and by myself trying to cope with my body being out of alignment. Sure there's a choice in whether I choose to embrace my identity (and the baggage that comes with it) versus not, but let's be realistic here. The outcome is so favored towards one side that there's no real question in my mind what the right choice is.

But what if I chose to be a girl simply because I liked being a girl? At first I struggled deeply with this problem, and for a long time was very ashamed of my feelings because of it. What if it wasn't because I actually was a girl, but just simply liked the thought of being one? So I felt like I had to prove to the world I really was a girl, and tried to throw away a lot of my identity trying to prove how absolutely feminine I am. I was hoping by doing so there'd be no question, I'm hopelessly female and I can't help it therefore you just need to accept me. That didn't work though, because I was being just as inauthentic as when I was pretending to be a boy. It should not matter whether I'm identifying as a girl because I feel it innately, or because I want to. And it shouldn't matter if others have different reasons, whether serious or silly, for their gender expression and identity.


Twitter: @hipsterfont | Discord: helvetica#0573 | LINE: hipsterfont

He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


[⑨] Suzuran

  • Neko Neko Wai~
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #109 on: October 22, 2013, 06:06:47 PM »
some of those labels are completely redundant.
But don't you DARE omit one or you're committing a hate crime!

(the pop vs soda war)
Yeah, except that people who say soda/pop don't consider it a hate crime to use the opposite word.

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Other people like to establish guidelines on who can and can't call themselves a gamer though. That's wrong though because who gets to decide who's a "true" gamer and who isn't?
HAY GUYZ IAM (-=*D34Dx3Y3*=-) ELEET HACKER I DOWNLOAD W4R3Z ON THE INTERNETS AND PLAY COD UR A HOMOFAG & I FUCKED UR MOM LOL I WILL HACK UR 360 AND BAN U
FEER ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I do not use trans when I describe myself to other people
...because they're going to immediately interpret it as you saying "I'm really a guy, this is just an act".

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privilege
Right, and everyone else should have to sit in a chair and be miserable 5 hours of every other morning to check their kidney privilege so I don't feel bad about suffering the consequences of my actions.

I'm still not really challenging the gender binary with my existence.
Since when is that mandatory?

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Had I been raised a girl I would have been allowed to pursue those interests
You win some and you lose some. I don't see how this means you enjoyed some net-positive privilege or have to atone for anything.

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How is this any better than the status quo right now?
How is intentionally suffering when you don't have to going to change the status quo either? This is like saying if all the jews had willingly gone to the concentration camps instead of trying to escape then their deaths would have been worth more.
(being changing the status quo is suffering)

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They like to stress it's still a choice
...because that means they have a chance of changing your mind and returning you to "God's" chosen path. They don't give a damn if it's a choice or not, they just want to maintain hope that they can change you back into what they want you to be instead of what you want to be.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #110 on: October 22, 2013, 06:17:18 PM »
But don't you DARE omit one or you're committing a hate crime!

With all due respect, this kind of ridiculous hyperbole isn't helping. Nowhere in that image you posted is it stated or implied that omitting any of these terms is on par with a hate crime.

I mean, some of your participation in this thread has really started to make me wonder - sometimes - if you're really interested in an honest discussion or not.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

[⑨] Suzuran

  • Neko Neko Wai~
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #111 on: October 22, 2013, 06:31:12 PM »
some of your participation in this thread has really started to make me wonder - sometimes - if you're really interested in an honest discussion or not.

If I wasn't I would just low-effort shitpost instead of breaking up TSO's novel series for context quotes.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #112 on: October 22, 2013, 07:11:37 PM »
If I wasn't I would just low-effort shitpost instead of breaking up TSO's novel series for context quotes.
You don't need to low-level shitpost to have a bad faith discussion; sometimes a person could, for example, deliberately exaggerate or misrepresent someone else's position. "Strawmanning", I think the kids call it.

Also I hope TSO prints her posts, binds them into a book, and sells it.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

helvetica

  • Arcade Maid
  • *
  • United Federation
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #113 on: October 22, 2013, 11:21:14 PM »
Who says I'm not fully aware that I could escape the scorn and social stigma by avoiding discussion of my status? Who says I'm not tempted to on a daily basis, nor would I fault anyone who does end up choosing to "go stealth"? I choose to talk about my status because I feel my discomfort isn't worth as much as the good I would do being outspoken about it. I persist in being a girl in a male dominated field (science and engineering) not just because I like it, but because society needs to see more female scientists and engineers. I persist in past times where I am objectified for my body and in the same breath called a fraud and a harlot for actually wearing the terrible outfits men design for female characters (cosplay). And I choose to be open about being a girl in a community where it is a liability to be (gaming).

Privilege is not choosing to take the easy life if you really don't feel motivated to face the consequences outside of it. Privilege is talking from your pulpit in the easy life claiming that because you can do it everyone else can, ignoring circumstances and assistance and things others may not have. It is not to shame those who are more fortunate, but more to recognize what makes them more fortunate and to extend support and assistance to give everyone equal opportunities for happiness.

The only time I've ever been upset at someone for "privilege" as far as trans* related things go, is when someone tries to give assistance or advice or act as an ally to trans*persons while not acknowledging their own trans* status and pretending to be cis. That is exercising a privilege not all trans persons get to exercise, and to lord it over others in the same boat as them is not cool. Having to pretend or hide their trans status in public or in certain situations is understandable given the social and political climate. But in a safe zone amongst people who are just like them, isn't cool. It makes those who can't hide their statuses as well feel subhuman, and glorifies trying to fit into the majority narrative rather than celebrating uniqueness.

That being said that's a behaviour not unique to queer folk. "Putting on airs", so to speak, is one such phrase coined to refer to people who try to act better than their upbringing around the people they came from. It's one thing to pretend to fit into a privileged class in order to avoid minority stigma while in their company, it's another thing entirely to assert that same superiority on the minority you identify or came from. People should be proud of who they not, not feel like they have to pretend to be something else to fit in.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 11:27:22 PM by helvetica »


Twitter: @hipsterfont | Discord: helvetica#0573 | LINE: hipsterfont

He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


helvetica

  • Arcade Maid
  • *
  • United Federation
Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #114 on: October 23, 2013, 01:00:49 AM »
An example of privilege abuse I thought of on my way home would someone making assumptions or extrapolations on other people's situations based on their own. Studies have been done that show that those living or raised in disadvantaged areas tend to have higher obesity rates than more middle or upper class areas. One extrapolation could be that this is because the poor are lazier; they're less interested in taking care of their body and more interested in stuffing their throat. That particular person looks at themselves and goes, "Well I can take care of my body and I'm not even paying that much, why can't they?". This is abusing privilege, as it makes assumptions of someone else's motives while being ignorant of their potential situation and circumstances.  Things such as access to reliable transportation, having grocery stores in the area, a working life that gives them the opportunity to cook and exercise rather than barely giving them enough time to scarf down McDonalds, these are all potential factors that poor people have little to no control over that may adversely affect their ability to maintain a healthy lifestyle. That's not saying there aren't poor people who just don't care about their diet or health, but who's to say there aren't health conscious folk who have to sacrifice eating a balanced and well rounded diet or don't have the time to go jogging 3 times a week between the 3 jobs they have to work to just keep a roof over their head? That's abusing privilege.

Just being born into favorable circumstances is not an offense in and of itself. I had just as much choice to be born a white American transgirl as a kid in Prague had of being born Czech. That being said, I have opportunities and access to resources not available to my counterpart born in Prague. To fault them for not being able to meet the same level of success as I would is being ignorant of my privilege and what it affords. Meritocracy only works when everyone starts from the same point and gets all the same opportunities and resources. Until we reach that point, there will need to be a conscientious effort from those in privilege to assist those in lesser privileged statuses to overcome those obstacles. This is not to say, one should take "pity" on those less fortunate, but to understand the benefits and ramifications of the privileges one may have, to give assistance if asked, and to let them speak for themselves and help their voice be heard, rather than speak for them.


Twitter: @hipsterfont | Discord: helvetica#0573 | LINE: hipsterfont

He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."