Author Topic: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom  (Read 55090 times)

helvetica

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #60 on: October 06, 2013, 06:44:13 AM »
You ended your last post expecting me to attempt to forge my way through with the "debate." But in all honesty, after having read your last reply, I'm beginning to regret debating on a topic that strikes such a personal chord of yours, and you'd be surprised to learn that I'm in agreement with you for the most part since the beginning. Was I somehow implying that, just because it will be hard for a majority of the society to fully embrace the concept of diversity, that they are somehow in the right? Was I somehow implying that the "privileged" ones have no obligation to recognize the differences of a few? What actually amazes me is how you and many people's vision of the world, what it could be, and what can be done to make it better, comes off as awfully optimistic. If it helps in labeling me as a bigoted ignoramus, then by all means. If I ever were to encounter a gender variant, it's only my own assessment of my behavior and expectations that counts.
There's no reason society has to operate this way. It's by staying quiet and unknown that these issues continue to perpetuate. Education is the enemy of bigotry, and a lot of bigotry isn't straight hatred but just fear of the unknown. By showing people that these kinds of variations aren't only common, but natural, will do a lot of good towards breaking down the barriers of bigotry. For example, a century and a half ago, the western world was convinced black people were inferior in every way. Now, while there's still systemic issues with racism, very few people actually truly believe the color of someone's skin determines their IQ. Most people who think that way are rightfully shunned and ignored.

At no point was I trying to imply you were applying privilege in this discussion so I apologize if it came off that way. I was more so trying to point out that a typical application of privilege is to assume that if an issue doesn't face the privileged, then it's not important or shouldn't be important. Privilege will likely always exist, there will always be some form of have and have not. Recognizing that one has privilege and does not face certain trials in their life based on their socioeconomic status is paramount towards bringing equality to everyone. It is arrogance on part of someone in privilege to assume that just because they do not face an issue another group faces, then it's not an issue worth pursuing. Just because one doesn't have a dog in the fight doesn't make it any less important to those that do, and to tell them that they shouldn't put so much importance into it is abusing privilege.

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What if I say that I am of a minority? My parents emigrated from China, even to this point having trouble communicating in English. My skin, face, demeanor, and language reeks of minority, no matter how much I resent it. I've been through hell both socially and at home, in elementary, middle, high school, you name it, and am having trouble with self-image, although that's not to say that it even compares to the pain someone out there is going through. Now, whenever I find myself feeling socially neglected or belittled, I would never, repeat: NEVER blame my race. Only my own integrity and character (or lack thereof). Blaming my minority-status not only comes off as defeatist, but also unspeakably lazy. To me, personal traits seem to be something I myself am responsible for handling, and the failure to get them to reach their full potential is completely on me. Luckily, only a few things are necessary to allow us to make the most of our character, and that includes time and self-reflection.
Why shouldn't you be proud of your heritage though? There is no reason a person shouldn't be proud of their race, their heritage, their sexual orientation, their gender, whatever. We should be celebrating our diversity and differences, not trying to whitewash everyone down to this amorphous grey ooze called "humanity". At no point do I blame my trans status for anything. I am who I am, and it's what I make of life that determines what I get out of it. I should be proud of being trans, yet I'm told by society and by others this is actually a deficiency, a challenge I have to overcome. It should not be this way, but because of the way privilege works, it ends up being that way. People in minority groups are told they end up where they end up in spite of, not because of their identity.

Now, it's pretty short-sighted to think that everyone has the same playing field. We don't. I'd be ignorant to not realize that being trans didn't put on a lot of hardships other people may not have or may never have to face, and left me sensitive to things other people may not even be aware of. Recognizing that the majority doesn't face certain hardships or "has it easier" is not defeatist, it's recognizing the responsibility for the majority to be sensitive to the issues minorities face and to help even the playing field so that everyone can get to the same level. Meritocracy only works if everyone comes from the same starting point, and that's very unlikely to happen anytime soon. It's not defeatist in any sense to want to level things to help people who have it worse off to help them reach their potential. It's pretty much luck where you end up in the socioeconomic ladder. The point isn't to shelter people from the big bad world, and absolve them from responsibility, but to give people the tools and abilities to be able to handle it and to become the best they can be.

The point is to make people proud of being different, not feel like they have to struggle against it.

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I find it interesting that you would reference yourself here, seeing that I was trying to refer to those for whom you are trying to garner understanding. What confuses me is that you seem to be arguing in two directions: one, that people with variant gender identities are fully self-sufficient and will refuse to recognize their sensitivity as a weakness. Two, that the privileged majority must strive to minimize the damage made possible by such sensitivity. This act of "toughening up" is not the gender variant's responsibility, per se, but is something I really hope they will judge as one of the best courses of action.
The way you worded it implied that such sensitivity is a "weakness". It's not, it's just sensitivity. People have different things they are interested in and are sensitive to. It's not a weakness to find something important to the point of putting emotional value into it. Humans are not purely logical creatures, we are also blobs of illogical emotion. We love, we fight, we hate, we have passions. Not every passion is rational, and to act as if it's a weakness for having passion or sensitivity towards certain stimuli implies there's something at fault. There isn't, it's just being human.

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As a college-aged engineering major, I can safely attest to that. Women in engineering are about as endangered as pandas in Antarctica. You can try to strip all the gender-specific social constructs to the core. But surely, you can't deny that, down to the physiological level, there are still some basic differences between the male and the female brain? And these differences are likely to show by means of the hormones produced? (You may enlighten me on the subject of the effect of hormones if you wish. I'm not too familiar with that field...)
Any studies done trying to quantify any significant differences between "male" and "female" brains have been pretty well discredited. While there are structural differences in terms of size and which regions are used for various functions and how they function neurochemically, the overall result is similar. Studies that have previously shown girls to be "worse" at spacial reasoning, or math, or men being worse at language have been pretty much debunked. While male brains are larger, this is mostly due to a larger amount of "white" matter in male brains. When accounting for total grey matter, the actual part of the brain that does work, both brains are equivalent in size. Any quantifiable differences in intelligence or certain skills is pointless and more likely attributed to other factors than gender. There's tons of other factors that can correlate to changing those factors that gender ends up playing such an insignificant factor. This is how gender is both an innate and a sociological concept. It is possible for someone to have a female brain in a male body, there's been several studies showing transgendered individuals and their reaction to stimuli being similar to their actual gender than their biological gender. But not all transgendered people function that way.

If you look at most studies, innate behaviors tend to amount to very little when it comes to being able to learn and master a concept. There are obviously geniuses and other individuals that have an advantage, but at a certain level everyone can master most concepts given enough time and effort. But thanks to society, girls tend to do poorer in math and science. This isn't because they are inherently worse at it, but because society and education has been stereotyped with this notion that girls are inferior at these subjects. I have an interesting background. Since I was socialized as a boy, I was heavily encouraged to do math and sciences, and heavily discouraged to do ballet and gymnastics, since those weren't considered male-appropriate. Had I been raised female, and I didn't show such a strong talent and interest in math and science, it's likely I wouldn't have received the special attention I did that inevitably nurtured it into my lifelong passion. Ironically, I would have been heavily encouraged to go into ballet and such as those were female-friendly interests. I might have end up becoming a ballerina instead of a scientist. Some girls may have very deep interests or talents in math and science that are neglected because they're grown up with the notion women do not succeed in those fields. Same with boys and "girly" areas like dance.

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If, by any means, anyone ends up being on the sinking island with burned bridges, then the only thing they can do is to sit down and re-evaluate their relationship with society and realize that maybe, it's not a matter of who's in the right, or who's in the wrong. Maybe it's a simple matter of give-and-take.
There's a difference between understanding not everyone is going to like M&Ms and being denied a basic right to self identity and actualization. There are rights that are worth fighting for, and this is one of them. Freedom of gender expression is a facet of the right to self actualization and determination, the so called right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". It is a basic human right. Just because the majority doesn't face this as an issue doesn't make it any less important in the concept of human rights. There are things that are lines in the sand, and this is one of them.

The problem is the equation is always imbalanced to say the minority should learn to just cope with it. They shouldn't. The majority needs to recognize that they have privilege and to use that responsibly to make things comfortable for others who don't have it. This is the modern social contract. The minority already knows they have to put up with things the majority doesn't. They don't need to be told that again and again. That's not going to solve anything. Helping to make the world more comfortable for the minority will solve things, and help them reach their potential.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 08:36:18 AM by helvetica »


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


[⑨] Suzuran

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #61 on: October 06, 2013, 06:56:13 AM »
I missed this somehow. I highly hope I read this wrong because for this to come from you is shocking to me.

to act as if it's my responsibility to stick up for myself, rather than cisgendered individuals to be more accommodating for me, is extremely bigoted

I highly disagree with this sentiment. It is absolutely your responsibility to stick up for yourself. The world owes you NOTHING. It was here first. (The world shouldn't be an asshole about it, but that's different) If you want something you must earn it. Nobody must (or will) be more accommodating to you because of your special little feature, be it gender, race, smoking habits, physical disability, whatever. This is the same asinine line of reasoning that says I should walk slowly so I don't remind the obese of their obesity. See also the Handicapper General. Sorry, no, the world does not work this way, nor should it. You are not a special unique snowflake who deserves special preferential treatment, and to believe so strikes me as offensively arrogant.

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #62 on: October 06, 2013, 07:17:51 AM »
(The world shouldn't be an asshole about it, but that's different)

i'm pretty sure that's the entire point of contention here pal

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helvetica

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #63 on: October 06, 2013, 07:18:13 AM »
There's two arguments going on and I'm probably doing it really poorly.

Yes, one should fight for themselves and stick up for themselves. But not everyone can, not everyone will be able to, for whatever reasons. I recognize that not everyone of my transbrothers and sisters are willing to put themselves on the line like I do. It's not fun and it's a lot of hardship that can potentially be avoided or at the very least reduced. I do it because I want to fight for others who aren't able to, and as such I end up taking a few more shots across the chin than I normally would. To say people don't deserve certain rights because they can't or aren't willing to fight for it them is wrong. That's not how rights work. Rights are innate, they're not use it or lose it. People have lots of reasons, most of them pretty damn good, for not wanting to fight or put themselves on the line. Even if their reasons were purely selfish it shouldn't matter, rights are for everyone.

Society should not be an antagonistic me against the world struggle though. It doesn't have to be this struggle. We are all human and all riding this little blue marble in space together, we are all on the same side. The world should be more accommodating to others not because I'm a special snowflake, but because it's being nice to your fellow human being and not being an asshole. I am not claiming the world owes me anything, I'm asking people to be nice to each other and I am leading by example. I am sharing my experience so that others who don't want to be assholes can understand and learn how to be sensitive towards those who are facing similar struggles to myself.

That being said, there are things that being a human being I am entitled to, basic human rights. The right to self determination is one of them, and the freedom of gender and gender expression is a facet of this. Others do not have the right to ignore my gender. Others may not "agree" with it, but that's their own problem, not mine. They do not have the right to deny me my gender, nor my gender expression. If I say I'm a girl they need to accept I'm a girl, period. They may not understand why I'm a girl, or agree with it, but they don't get to make the call and say I'm a boy, period. That's my choice, not theirs. This is not demanding the world owes me something extra, this is simply exercising the right all cisborn individuals get by default, simply because their gender aligns with their body. All because their gender isn't challenged on a daily basis. Why should my rights be less than cis individuals?

Asking people not be assholes and giving them steps to avoid it is not saying the world owes me. It's giving people who are good the tools to treat others well, and to hopefully identify behaviors so the assholes can be rooted out and their damage limited to just screaming epithets from their dark corners. Demanding I get the right pronouns, regardless of what one may think, is not saying the world owes me. It's getting the same right to self identification and determination cisgendered folk get.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 07:25:16 AM by helvetica »


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


[⑨] Suzuran

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #64 on: October 06, 2013, 07:42:46 AM »
There's two arguments going on and I'm probably doing it really poorly.
That's fine, I'm not all that good at it either. The important part is that we are engaged in civil debate and not firing artillery at one another. (On the other hand, the idea of a social justice trebuchet is just plain hilarious. Siege engines make everything funny.)

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They do not have the right to deny me my gender, nor my gender expression. If I say I'm a girl they need to accept I'm a girl, period.
These are two separate items. First, nobody can deny you your gender, even now. I can call a shovel a hammer all day long and it's not going to change the fact that the shovel is a shovel. No amount of calling you a boy is going to make you a boy.

As for the second item, I strongly disagree. You do not have a right to force others to believe what you wish. If they have a religious or moral objection to transgendered individuals, however broken and wrong that may be, you lose. You cannot force their minds to change. You might be able to pass laws to censor them or punish them for outwardly denying you, much like how certain religious beliefs are mandated in certain parts of the world, but in reality the people will only play as much lip service as they need to in order to keep the law off of them, they will build up a huge resentment against the attempt at thought control, and the moment that control is compromised they will lash out seeking revenge. You do not have a basic human right to acceptance. You can express yourself however you wish, but you cannot force others to accept your expression.

Edit: Cisgendered people don't even have that. If a skinny white kid goes gawking around the ghetto something's gonna happen to him. Majority and minority are situational.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 07:45:06 AM by [⑨] Suzuran »

helvetica

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #65 on: October 06, 2013, 08:03:40 AM »
I think the excuse of "moral" or "religious" objection to gay or trans individuals should go away, and so far is moving that way. Religious or moral objections are not excuses to be a bigot, period. Religion is not a shield to hide behind that lets them decide they can treat certain people as sub-human.

I don't care if it's "thought control", it's hate speech. Freedom of speech is not freedom to be an asshole. It just means the government can't censor citizens. It doesn't mean the government has to give equal weight to bigots. Government should be weighed towards protecting the rights of minorities over the majority. The right to be an asshole ends at someone's right to self determination and actualization. Teaching kids about gay and transgendered folk in school, permitting kids to use the bathroom they're most comfortable with and providing gender neutral facilities, allowing transgendered folk to participate in their proper sports teams, these are all things cited by the "religious" folk as "infringing on their rights to freedom of religious expression and speech" and "forcing them to accept an agenda they do not agree with". I'm sorry, that's not how this works. Government can and should be doing all of these things, period. Being inclusive to minorities trumps one's right to be a bigoted asshole.

They can think in their pretty little heads all they want I'm a boy but it does not give them the right to tell me I'm not one, nor does it give them the right to deny education of such topics or the rights to use proper gendered facilities and features of society. This is no different than striking down Jim Crow laws such as being allowed to deny service to people of color. Sure it's an "infringement" on the right of the storeowner to decide who they wish to do business with, but this is considered a net good for society to deny this right in the interest of minority representation. Government is charged with protecting all of its citizens, not just the majority. This is why the ADA exists and enforces accessibility requirements, as most businesses would op out of them due to costs and lack of return. This is why Title IX exists, because without it most girls sports would get the shaft to fund more prestigious or profitable male sports.

This is what I mean by when I say one isn't allowed to tell me I'm not a girl. Denying me the right to use the right bathroom, denying me access to the right gender in sports and rec teams, denying me access to health care and other things, denying me the right of marriage (in some states without gay marriage I cannot marry anyone gay or straight as my birth certificate would say I'm male and they would pick and choose how to deny me), these are the things that assholes shouldn't be allowed to do period. Misgendering me intentionally can and should have repercussions if done intentionally to cause harm. Maybe not from the government, but definitely from society.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 08:12:40 AM by helvetica »


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


helvetica

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #66 on: October 06, 2013, 08:22:15 AM »
As I think this is getting way off topic I'd like to end this particular thread of conversation. If you wish to discuss gender and its implications in society this further I will be more than happy to open up a thread in the Cafe. Please keep all further comments on topic about appropriate etiquette towards people in order to accommodate gender variant individuals.

Nevermind I changed my mind. As much as I'd prefer it to remain towards the topic of etiquette and why it's important to maintain such for gender variant persons, an open and frank discussion on gender is useful in and of itself. Please feel free to weigh in, this isn't just about my experiences or my opinions. I would love to hear from others about their experiences within the fandom or just in general. Please do keep it civil though, as so far it's been going great and I'd like it to remain that way! :I
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 08:41:10 AM by helvetica »


Twitter: @hipsterfont | Discord: helvetica#0573 | LINE: hipsterfont

He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #67 on: October 06, 2013, 10:35:57 AM »
If gender were a computer

Sex = DVD, Floppy, Flash, Sex drive

Sexual Freedom = "I can install any program I want, so there, nuh."

Gender "Intrinsic" = Hardware

Gender Dysphoria = Error, keyboard not found, press F1 to continue.

Gender Expression = Desktop Wallpaper

Freedom of Expression = "My wallpaper is Card Captor Sakura, cause I sure do like that show. This doesn't mean I think my PC is imbued with the power of the Clow."

Gender "Societal Constructs" = McAfee Antivirus

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #68 on: October 06, 2013, 11:04:06 AM »
[...] these are all things cited by the "religious" folk as "infringing on their rights to freedom of religious expression and speech" and "forcing them to accept an agenda they do not agree with". I'm sorry, that's not how this works.

I have to say this is a very sound point. You are free to have whatever religion you choose, sure. But, say, if it includes cannibalism and human sacrifice, then no, this is where your freedom ends. The same with LGBT people - they have the same basic human rights as anyone else, and if your religion says otherwise, then either give your religion a major review or keep your ideas to yourself and show those people the respect they deserve. Insulting people for who they are is still insulting, and has no place in modern world.

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #69 on: October 06, 2013, 11:18:09 AM »
Yeah, that has been the North American/European take on religion in a secular democracy - believe what you like so long as it doesn't break secular law.

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #70 on: October 06, 2013, 07:48:58 PM »
I wanted to read this whole article and thread through but I couldn't so I'll just ask my question. 
What about gender neutral pronouns? I've been trying to get into the habit of using these in an effort to just take care of this whole pronouns thing all at once.

helvetica

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #71 on: October 06, 2013, 07:59:35 PM »
They/them is generally accepted as a gender neutral pronoun. I personally use they in conversation when I'm not sure what their pronouns may be. One is a pronoun I typically use in formal writing and such, it feels a bit awkward to use it in conversation. Never use it though as it has the connotation of objectifying and dehumanizing an individual.

Other pronouns such as ze and xe and hir are mostly used by persons with non-binary genders and aren't really "gender neutral".

Really the only convention that needs to be broken is the use of he/him as a catch all pronoun. It really isn't.

As far as pronouns go, it's best not to think of them as "preferred" pronouns as they're sometimes called, because that undersells how important they are to people. I don't "prefer" to be called female, I am female. Pronouns are simply that, an affirmation of one's identity. if you don't know, ask, and if you're not in a position or able to ask, use they/one until you can.


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #72 on: October 07, 2013, 04:43:34 AM »
Good to know there's people out in US as well who takes these issues seriously.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 04:57:17 AM by Sedrife »

[⑨] Suzuran

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #73 on: October 07, 2013, 06:49:27 AM »
Government should be weighed towards protecting the rights of minorities over the majority.
If that's the case, then why isn't the opinion of the Westboro Baptist Church forced on the rest of us? WBC is clearly a minority. By your logic, the government should be protecting their right to hate over everyone else's right to peace.

Nobody anywhere regardless of race, gender, fame, fortune, religious rank or political office is so sacred that others should be prohibited by LAW from offending them. Social contract maybe, but law absolutely not. Changing social contract is very hard, but changing law just takes the stroke of a pen. Look at the California gay marriage debacle. The citizens voted the government had authority over marriage, and that authority was promptly turned against them and used to impose the backward and hateful agenda of a minority over the entire state. Another example is Obamacare right now. The people have voted for it, the highest court of the land has voted for it, but it stops because a powerful few wish that healthcare remain a privilege of the moneyed and powerful. If anything, the government should be protecting all rights of all citizens equally. Currently is seems to be protecting the rights of the rich to exploit the poor. Your rights stop where the next person's rights start, unless you have lots of money.

The only measure of the legitimacy of a government is the consent of those governed. Imposing the will of a minority against the wishes of the majority hardly seems a good way to gain or maintain this consent. A government that acts as you describe acts against its own people, and is by definition an illegitimate dictatorship and should be removed from power by the most expedient means available.

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #74 on: October 07, 2013, 08:48:32 AM »
First of all, you're comparing a minority by choice (a religion, or for something less trigger sensitive, say the Freemasons) to a minority by birth (LGBT). LGBT isn't a form of expression, it's what you are, and your right to be what you are should be protected.

Secondly, I'm pretty sure the government does protect the Westboro Baptist Church's right to hate over everyone else's right to peace. They can't force other people to believe it but they're allowed to believe in what they believe, aren't they?

Thirdly, saying that the government should be weighted towards protecting minority rights is not the same thing as saying it should be illegal to offend someone, and that wasn't one of the examples that helvetica named as something the government should support, all the things she named were clear points where one group's views are being forced to be followed by another group. It should absolutely be up to the social contract to stop people from being offensive douchebags. To continue the WBC example, they weren't stopped by the police, but other groups exercised their social rights by spreading the word about them, guarding off the cemetaries they were picketing, and adding their own ridiculous signs in counter-pickets. That kind of social recognition would never have happened if people weren't made aware of the issue and decided to take a social stand, similar to this thread.


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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #75 on: October 07, 2013, 08:57:23 AM »
TSO-chan, you should though be careful when you speak of religion. The problem with religion is like Suzu-chan had explained, certain religious people follow them very strictly and therefore you cannot change their minds. As dumb as it may sound, it is the reality. And they do often use it as an excuse, what is worse is that they don't know for sure how it is approached in religion.

I am religious too, remember? In the Islam there is no room for these things as far as I know/read myself. Though they always speak about the subject in general. I don't think religion treats people as sub-humans, that is a common mistake many people make when they speak of religion. We aren't allowed to look down on people (note, I said people. Doesn't matter what gender, culture, belief. People = people). But some assholes who abuse religion make it look like that. Actually, I cannot even be sure how gender is approached in those religious books: whether it be Christianity, Islam etc. Huge question mark.

I know this debate is big, complicated and surely we aren't the only ones but at the end, I strongly believe it boils down to personal respect and choice whether to accept someone's choice for being male or female, regardless of what my eyes see and my ears hear. I think Suzu-chan has worded that nicely as Social contracts.

On IRC I gave the example about poor people living in misery (bad health, no money, etc). And asked the question: "What about them if they have gender doubts?" Nobody gave me an answer. Now don't get me wrong, I don't blame people for being whiny or overly reactive because this is the internet. But us being relatively wealthy, or conditionally having a better life in general, allows us to easier touch these subjects. A person living in poverty and misery won't be able to bother with all of this. And that gives that person an even harder time.

Can you people imagine that? I am sure you can't (neither I) unless you climbed up from poverty/misery. Again, calling nobody but please be more open minded about your surroundings before pointing fingers.

helvetica

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #76 on: October 07, 2013, 10:17:11 AM »
If that's the case, then why isn't the opinion of the Westboro Baptist Church forced on the rest of us? WBC is clearly a minority. By your logic, the government should be protecting their right to hate over everyone else's right to peace.

Nobody anywhere regardless of race, gender, fame, fortune, religious rank or political office is so sacred that others should be prohibited by LAW from offending them. Social contract maybe, but law absolutely not. Changing social contract is very hard, but changing law just takes the stroke of a pen. Look at the California gay marriage debacle. The citizens voted the government had authority over marriage, and that authority was promptly turned against them and used to impose the backward and hateful agenda of a minority over the entire state. Another example is Obamacare right now. The people have voted for it, the highest court of the land has voted for it, but it stops because a powerful few wish that healthcare remain a privilege of the moneyed and powerful. If anything, the government should be protecting all rights of all citizens equally. Currently is seems to be protecting the rights of the rich to exploit the poor. Your rights stop where the next person's rights start, unless you have lots of money.

The only measure of the legitimacy of a government is the consent of those governed. Imposing the will of a minority against the wishes of the majority hardly seems a good way to gain or maintain this consent. A government that acts as you describe acts against its own people, and is by definition an illegitimate dictatorship and should be removed from power by the most expedient means available.
As Shadoweh said, that's not even close to the notion of protecting the rights of minorities. Where does making sure minorities don't get discriminated and intimidated become letting hate groups get their message blasted everywhere? Their right to express themselves is protected, but that in itself is not an endorsement of their platform, nor does that mean they're guaranteed an audience. But this is different from LGBT rights as one is an expression of someone's personal ideas and the other is an expression of someone's personal identity. The idea is the majority can't stamp out the minority's rights to equal protection and rights due to the equal protection clause, and that certain rights are deemed untouchable for regulation by the government unless public safety is jeopardized. Equal protection clause protects against Jim Crow laws and other laws that have passed over the years that limits minority rights. In your example about the authority of the majority being used against the minority with Prop 8, it was rightfully struck down by the federal courts on equal protection grounds. DOMA was also struck down on equal protection grounds. Even though Prop 8 passed as a citizen amendment with majority votes it didn't make it legal. Just because you have the majority of votes in play doesn't mean you can deny rights to the minority who can't oppose such decisions.

Protecting the rights of the minority is not an endorsement of their message nor imposing wills, it is merely making sure that everyone enjoys the same level of protection by the government and aren't denied them based on personal identity. And whether the government is properly doing its job of fulfilling the social contract is a different debate entirely. It doesn't change what it should be doing, and that is protecting the rights of the minority from being trampled by the majority. My freedom of gender expression is a right, period, as it is a basic tenant of my identity. Is it properly protected right now? No, but that doesn't change the fact it should. I and others fight to make it so. This isn't a matter of not wanting to be offended, but not wanting to have my identity denied to me. Freedom of gender expression isn't just making sure I get the right pronouns, it's a whole list of things that government can and should be enforcing.

A non-exhaustive list of rights and freedoms freedom of gender expression should provide:
  • Freedom to use the proper restroom facilities or to provide gender neutral offerings
  • Allowing transpersons to marry and adopt
  • Freedom to participate on the proper gendered sports teams (whether funded publicly in schools and rec leagues or private entities with public oversight such as boxing commissions)
  • Freedom to have the proper gender on government issued identification and paperwork such as social security and birth certificates and drivers licenses
  • Freedom to not be denied employment on the grounds of gender expression
  • Freedom from harassment and intimidation based on gender expression
  • Freedom to teach and discuss gender identities beyond cisgendered
  • Numerous other freedoms cisgendered persons enjoy on a daily basis transpersons have to fight for

None of these "impose wills" as the religious wingnuts love to cry. Being forced to accept someone as just as human as others are is not "imposing will". That's just making sure peoples rights as citizens are not trampled. I should not have less of a right to use the restroom or feel comfortable in doing so than cisgendered persons. I should not have less of a right to play on sports teams than cisgendered individuals. And slowly but surely, the right for me to have the proper gender on my government issued paperwork and identification is being affirmed as well. I can get my passport and my social security card changed with a simple note affirming my trans status as evaluated by a licensed professional. I can get my birth certificate changed with the same note as I was born in California. Not all states currently recognize this but eventually they will be brought into line just like with gay marriage. Equal protection under the law. Just because the government currently isn't doing its job to protect minority rights doesn't mean it shouldn't be. It just means it's dysfunctional :S States not protecting transpersons from workplace discrimination, or denying the right to freedom of gender expressions are failing in their job to protect minority rights and should be brought to task for it.

I am definitely a strong proponent of free speech and I don't want to dictate thought crimes, but people do have the right to be free from intimidation. The right to be a bigoted asshole does not override someone's right to feel safe in society. Cross burning and other signs of intimidation have long since been banned on such grounds. Outing or threatening to out someone should fall on the same lines. Hate groups live on a very thin line between freedom of speech and harassment. If at any point a group feels threatened or intimidated by such speech the government can and generally does intervene. WBC exists on the thin line between harassment and protected speech and has come under fire before. They get away with it because they're a kabal of lawyers who specialize in legalese and make sure to protest only on public grounds and cross their eyes and dot their ts on everything to skirt defamation and slander/libel suits. Even if the government can't or shouldn't intervene on the basis of remaining impartial in the interests of freedom of speech and expression, and civil penalties can't be enacted, society at large should and has intervened. The number of counter-protests against WBC's actions are as famous as they are numerous. When the KKK is counter-protesting you you know there's shenanigans afoot.


Thirdly, saying that the government should be weighted towards protecting minority rights is not the same thing as saying it should be illegal to offend someone, and that wasn't one of the examples that helvetica named as something the government should support, all the things she named were clear points where one group's views are being forced to be followed by another group. It should absolutely be up to the social contract to stop people from being offensive douchebags. To continue the WBC example, they weren't stopped by the police, but other groups exercised their social rights by spreading the word about them, guarding off the cemetaries they were picketing, and adding their own ridiculous signs in counter-pickets. That kind of social recognition would never have happened if people weren't made aware of the issue and decided to take a social stand, similar to this thread.

Exactly! I'm raising awareness so that the social contract can take over. I'm not advocating the government step in and give me special snowflake provisions beyond protection from intimidation and discrimination. The things I listed are so I receive equal protection under the law. This is not policing people's thoughts and "infringing" on their right to religious or moral objections. You want to call me a hateful creature going to hell, sure that's your right. I'm working on raising awareness so that the good people in society can tune you out. The only thing I want the government to do is protect me from discrimination just for being who I am.

Pronouns aren't on the same level as an insult. There's a different psychological process at hand. This isn't simply being offended, it strikes at the very core of a gender variant person's identity. This wouldn't be the government protecting people from being offended, but by preventing intimidation and making sure its citizens are not harming themselves in an effort to avoid intimidation. Getting called the wrong gender multiple times a day is in itself a form of intimidation. It got easier for me in a lot of ways not because I got better at putting up with it but because I was avoiding it by passing better. If I was getting misgendered as often as I do at cons in public I don't know if I'd be full-time right now. Each time hurts a lot, each time I have to hand over my card or show my ID hurts a lot. And each time someone looks at my ID and then looks at me and gives me this "is this really you?" speech it hurts a lot. I know I could avoid a lot of this by not being full-time, but by not being full-time I would fall further into depression and psychological harm. That's what intimidation does. It forces people to choose between being themselves or avoiding ridicule and intimidation in public.

Watching my roommate deal with this has been an eye opening experience. It's soul crushing to be misgendered on a daily basis. I don't really face it as much because I pass better, and that's pretty sad in a way. When someone says they should just "suck it up" and realize society won't perfectly accept them, they're basically being told they need to pass better or just not engage in society. To the people who can't pass as well or don't fit on the gender binary, there's no winning move. This is where education comes in play. I truly think it's the government's responsibility to create a safe environment for all of its citizens, and prevent intimidation. While I don't think they should police for proper gender pronoun usage, I do believe they should be charged with public awareness and education. Most people aren't assholes, raising awareness would go a long way to reducing these situations. Public education and awareness is a public health and safety issue, and it's not "imposing the will of the minority" on people.

This doesn't mean I believe in public reeducation camps for people who aren't PC. People are free to be assholes, as long as they're not directly intimidating or threatening someone there's not much the government can do. That's where the social contract comes into play and why hate groups like the WBC and KKK are increasingly irrelevant. That being said, things like cross burning have been banned as they are purely intended as signs of intimidation towards certain groups. I think publicly outing someone should fall under that spectrum. I've had my trans status weaponized against me several times. The only people that need to know about my status is me, my doctors, my partner, and whomever I deem to fit. I'm open not as much because I want to, but because I'm the kind of person who just takes the bull by the horns and takes problems head on. I know people could netdetective me and figure out my history so I own up to it in an attempt to diffuse it. That doesn't mean I still face a lot of danger if my status is publicly outed, which is what made this particular situation for me all the worse for me emotionally. I know a lot of people who do not want their status out for various reasons, and it's completely up to them. Their history is not public record.


TSO-chan, you should though be careful when you speak of religion. The problem with religion is like Suzu-chan had explained, certain religious people follow them very strictly and therefore you cannot change their minds. As dumb as it may sound, it is the reality. And they do often use it as an excuse, what is worse is that they don't know for sure how it is approached in religion.
Why would their right to not have their religious beliefs offended trump my right to not feel intimidated for my gender? If they want to be ultra-religious conservatives they can go build a compound out in the middle of the desert and congregate with closed-minded persons like themselves. Nobody's forcing them to integrate and interact with society, but if they wish to then they need to understand that other people that don't agree with them exist. Same thing applies to racists. If they wish to benefit from society they need to learn to integrate peacefully with people of other races. Nobody is telling them they need to change their minds and beliefs, just not be assholes about them and deny people rights based on them. I think the key here is choice. Religion and morality is a choice, gender and sexuality isn't. And even if it was all a choice, why would religion get special snowflake syndrome over gender and sexuality? Someone being trans or gay doesn't deny a religious person the right to practice their religion, or forces someone to change their moral framework. Denying someone the right to gender and sexual expression does harm that person psychologically, this is medical fact.

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I am religious too, remember? In the Islam there is no room for these things as far as I know/read myself. Though they always speak about the subject in general. I don't think religion treats people as sub-humans, that is a common mistake many people make when they speak of religion. We aren't allowed to look down on people (note, I said people. Doesn't matter what gender, culture, belief. People = people). But some assholes who abuse religion make it look like that. Actually, I cannot even be sure how gender is approached in those religious books: whether it be Christianity, Islam etc. Huge question mark.
Guess what, I am religious too! I'm not an atheist, although I lean more towards deism right now at this point. I pointed out religion merely as that's an extremely common excuse for objecting to providing LGBT rights. No, that's not how it works, period. They can believe I'm going to hell all they want, but they cannot stop me from having the same rights and freedoms they enjoy.

I am specifically calling out the extremists who think their beliefs entitle them to deny other people rights and privileges they enjoy. Religion isn't the problem, just merely an excuse bigots hide behind. The religion I was raised and confirmed in believes fully I am going to hell for what I'm doing. Sad thing is there's nothing theologically that says that, it's just people's bigotry twisting it. How awesome is that?

When someone says religion is a source of strife, they're not condemning all religious persons, merely the system and institution of religion that enables bigotry a voice and leverage and gives them privilege. When someone talks about the "white person" or "men", they're not directly attacking all white persons or males, they're attacking the institutions that gives them privilege and enable the bigots in their ranks to suppress others. The people that truly believe all religion is evil or all men are irredeemable are just as bad as the white supremacists or the jerks at the WBC.

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I know this debate is big, complicated and surely we aren't the only ones but at the end, I strongly believe it boils down to personal respect and choice whether to accept someone's choice for being male or female, regardless of what my eyes see and my ears hear. I think Suzu-chan has worded that nicely as Social contracts.
The only thing that's a choice here is whether or how LGBT people choose to express their gender or sexuality, not the gender or sexuality they choose to take. Gender and sexuality may be fluid and change over one's lifetime, but it's immutable. One cannot forcibly change their sexuality or gender. Even if they did, it's a basic aspect of human identity. Religion and morality isn't, regardless of the fervor of the belief.

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On IRC I gave the example about poor people living in misery (bad health, no money, etc). And asked the question: "What about them if they have gender doubts?" Nobody gave me an answer. Now don't get me wrong, I don't blame people for being whiny or overly reactive because this is the internet. But us being relatively wealthy, or conditionally having a better life in general, allows us to easier touch these subjects. A person living in poverty and misery won't be able to bother with all of this. And that gives that person an even harder time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

There's a lot of studies done on societies and gender. Societies that tended to have harder times with food and other resources tended to have stricter gender roles. Societies with plenty of food and little survival stress tend to be far more liberal with concepts of gender and sexuality. When basic needs of survival are met, then needs of self-esteem are sought after, and then self-actualization and determination. My own struggles with gender mirror this. Even though I was aware of it as a kid, I tended to repress it better because well, there was stronger problems with survival. I was a poor kid in a large family, and I was forced to take on parenting roles being the eldest. Once my needs for shelter and food were filled, I was still really depressed so in a desperate bid to get friends I built a persona around being male to try to belong. I had friends, I had a family, I had food and shelter. Why should I complain? Because as I filled each rung of the pyramid, I still was missing something, and unfortunately the stuff I had built were in direct contrary to my actual need for self actualization of my gender. This is still a sore point to me. My survival still depends on my alternate persona, as I cannot safely gain employment as a transgirl where I live. This causes an enormous amount of stress on me that right now is very overwhelming. I recently lost my job and the temptation to sacrifice everything I've done so far just to survive is very strong. Problem is, I know if I walk away from school then I will walk away forever and likely shut the doors to my transition, or at least make it significantly harder. But I have to pay my bills and eat :S

This is why protections to the expression of gender are EXTREMELY important. No one should have to choose between being themselves or having to eat, but unfortunately a lot do. Of the youth population 5-10% are LGBT but 20-40% of the homeless population are LGBT. Something like 42% of transpersons are unemployed or homeless. As a transgirl I have a 1 in 4 chance of being murdered, a life expectancy in the low-mid 20s. I'm beating the odds just by existing. And even with those who have their lives together and are able to move towards transition there's a lot of struggles gender variant people face that cisgendered persons do not face. I cannot get my name changed within the system at school or on my ID without a legal name change. That takes over a month and a significant chunk of cash to get done. Most of these limitations are in place to prevent people from abusing name changes for fraud, but these same barriers put up immense roadblocks on transpersons trying to transition. I never got it done because I was afraid of losing my job as changing my legal name would very quickly out me (Gwendolyn is not gender neutral). While I got my gender marker changed at school and could get it changed on my ID and social security card now, it took several therapy sessions I had to pay out of pocket for to get the confirmation of diagnosis. It was very expensive, $150 a session, and gender specialist therapists are hard to find. It used to be you had to have bottom surgery to get your gender marker change, a surgery that costs almost $30-50k (and extremely few insurances cover) depending on what is needed. And if my birth certificate was here in Ohio rather than in California, I wouldn't be able to change it at all. And even with having the proper name and gender on my identification, I have no protections from being fired for my trans status.

Just because there are more immediate needs to survival doesn't make gender or sexuality less important. Hell, it makes it even more important. Survival and coping mechanisms LGBT persons develop tend to be harmful in the long run towards reaching that tippy top point of self-actualization. I have a ton of anxiety and self-esteem issues separate from just the dysphoria that I developed through the coping mechanisms I had to use to survive. I used guilt for the longest time to motivate myself and because of that I am selfless to the point of causing myself significant harm. For people to reach their potential they need to be able to be secure that their basic needs can be met while still being able to be themselves. If at any point there's incentive to deny self expression for survival or acceptance then you run the risk of causing significant and potentially irreparable psychological harm, or at least reduce their productivity and happiness. It is extremely stressful for me mentally to realize that the fake persona I built has more rights than I will ever have as it stands now, and right now is my sole potential source of income for survival.

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Can you people imagine that? I am sure you can't (neither I) unless you climbed up from poverty/misery. Again, calling nobody but please be more open minded about your surroundings before pointing fingers.
At no point was I pointing fingers at anyone except those that seek to deny me rights on the flimsy grounds of protecting their precious morals or religious beliefs. If their beliefs are so weak that my expression of my identity would corrupt them, then they need to reexamine themselves, rather than force me into a box and hide away from society or denied rights and freedoms other people get. And I realize I am very fortunate in a lot of ways. It doesn't make my fight for freedom of expression of gender and sexuality any less important though.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 11:22:44 AM by helvetica »


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helvetica

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #77 on: October 07, 2013, 10:44:06 AM »
Some useful infograms to peruse

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdhinheiV21rikou1o1_500.png
http://31.media.tumblr.com/69c24ffaa07f2b6d9a3ca7b53cf1298b/tumblr_mnw1f6aPu41rctihmo1_500.jpg

The statistics are depressing for gender variant persons :S

http://31.media.tumblr.com/78e661b286ecd70fa7cf8da2c71ccd53/tumblr_mgr2lk612q1rctihmo1_r1_500.jpg

But some hope! There isn't any other mental health treatment as completely successful as transitioning is for gender variant persons. This is just transition in general, whatever form that may take. This is why it is so VERY VERY important that people are made aware of gender and the many forms it takes, and that they get the support they need not just from the medical community but from society in general. Pronouns are such a small thing people can do that can make a gigantic difference in a gender variant person's life. Not everyone has the opportunity to transition in the manner they wish to, and those that are transitioning it's a scary enough process as it is without having the stress of being misgendered.

Freedom of gender expression is such a vitally important right for gender variant persons. It literally is a matter of life or death. This is why I fight so strongly for this, because I know I am a statistical anomaly just being here right now talking to you, and it should not be that way. We should be doing everything we can to create safe zones of gender expression for people, as well as fight for people's rights to enjoy the same privileges cisgendered individuals enjoy simply by being born.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 10:54:28 AM by helvetica »


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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #78 on: October 07, 2013, 11:16:01 AM »
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When someone says they should just "suck it up" and realize society won't perfectly accept them, they're basically being told they need to pass better or just not engage in society.

Hey, I just want to talk about this a bit. A few weeks ago, I decided I would do the smart thing of coming out to my mother regarding my gender and my sexuality. On one hand, she wasn't angry and she definitely seemed to be okay with the fact that I am bi-gender, and for that I am eternally grateful. On the other hand, my mother also told me she felt sorry for me because she told me I would have to suffer and my only recourse was to "suck it up" and simply accept that society would never perfectly accept me, that I had to admit that basically, society treated my kind like they were aliens and I had to keep up my facade. I wanted to argue with her on this point, that it wasn't right, that on some levels, it just wasn't fair. I couldn't get her to see things from my perspective, and I can't entirely blame her. She's pretty old, about to reach her sixties, so I can quite understand that it can be a bit difficult to comprehend - after all, she was alien to these concepts I was blurting at her until I explained them to her. The point I want to make here is that I think it's a good move to try and expose people to the gender spectrum and its quirks as a whole.

Even if people don't intrinsically believe that it's natural or something, I still don't think it's right that such people willfully remain ignorant of that which they think is "unknown" and "unnatural." I don't buy the bullshit being spewed that status quo where "majority is satisfied, regardless of whether it is at the expense of the minority" should be maintained. As I try to mention, if people just refuse to see things from a certain perspective, then that can't be helped. None of us have the capacity to impose or forcefully say, that they should change if they are really so adamant. At the same time, the minority shouldn't be forced to be someone they are not, especially because they would be in threat of:

  • Getting assaulted / murdered OR
  • Losing out on employment OR
  • Losing out on shelter OR
  • Being ostracized and being what is basically 'socially lynched' OR
  • Some mixture of the above OR
  • Some other unjust action not listed here

If they were to express themselves how they would REALLY see themselves. Again, this kind of risk being heavily slanted towards those in the LGBT community should not be something that is an actual thing. Those in the LGBT community should be free to be who they are without being at risk of some injustice that stems from gross discrimination.

On IRC I gave the example about poor people living in misery (bad health, no money, etc). And asked the question: "What about them if they have gender doubts?" Nobody gave me an answer. Now don't get me wrong, I don't blame people for being whiny or overly reactive because this is the internet. But us being relatively wealthy, or conditionally having a better life in general, allows us to easier touch these subjects. A person living in poverty and misery won't be able to bother with all of this. And that gives that person an even harder time.

I currently live on charity from my relatives - the flat where I live is under my uncle's name, BUT it's actually under bank custody, so at any point in time my family and I could be kicked out. Living conditions are certainly not peachy in my part of the world, and it would be very, very biased and skewed to say that my family is relatively wealthy. In fact, my life compared to a larger majority is pretty shitty. It's very shitty. That doesn't stop me from mulling over these issues.

EDIT: Furthermore, a lot of the money I'm using for tuition and other necessities come from other sources... because family reasons. And it's not viable to find part-time work in this situation. So yeah. Tough times, just to drive home the point that I am not arguing from some pedestal.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 11:18:48 AM by Kawamura`Reo »

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #79 on: October 07, 2013, 01:12:56 PM »
I can't properly review the thread until late tonight but I thought I read something earlier amidst the government talk that I'd appreciate clarification on.

TSO, do you believe there should be legal enforcement of respect for gender identity, and, by direct extension, legal consequences for those that misgender someone?

EDIT: I should clarify that I'm asking in the social sense, not the business sense.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 03:26:52 PM by Kilgamayan »
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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #80 on: October 07, 2013, 03:08:16 PM »
The marginalized people wouldn't feel so bad if they had their own social net, their own groups, to support each other and have access to a daily dose of approval that rest of us take for granted.

I cannot disagree more with people who say "it's not because you're not cisgenderd, it's because you've got no guts."

For the mainstream, identity self-formation can draw on a large repertoire of cultural tropes. They also have access to a network of approval that's built into the habits of communitarian daily life. That is WHY they don't seem to "whine" as much. This network of approval is a set of conventional social etiquette that allows prejudiced people to "belong" without "trying to belong," and this social mechanic in turn allows them to broadcast suck-it-up edicts for the hapless gender-nonconformers without being called hypocritical.

Now, how bigots and non-bigots feel about things is their own business. But what's not a matter of opinion is that statements like "don't blame your identity, blame yourself" interferes with alternative identity formations. What does this mean? Well, it means that you are discouraging them from setting up their own network of approval (i.e. a "safe space"). You are discouraging them from seeing themselves as part of a group that just might supply them with the approval they need to get on with life.

If you stop them from viewing themselves as belonging to a group, you will impede their ability to form their own communities. And when they can't think of themselves as being a part of an approving community that doesn't have you in it, guess who will they ask? They will ask approval from you, and you will deny them. And then you complain about how minorities keep bugging you for approval. Invariably this causes them more angst. The cycle repeats. So it goes.

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #81 on: October 07, 2013, 05:07:26 PM »
Here's another question to throw on the pile: Is it agreed that bigotry is entirely and solely based upon a conscious decision to hate? That is, someone is not a bigot merely by being ignorant of trans issues, only by consciously knowing what a trans is and consciously deciding to hate them based on that knowledge.

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #82 on: October 07, 2013, 05:29:53 PM »
I always look at bigotry as falling under conscious bigotry or ignorance.

Conscious bigotry is the kind you describe. Ignorance is simply not knowing better. How one responds after learning better is a whole other matter.

I think that's where the conflation lies here. Whenever minorities speak up about how they are treated, or how they would like to be treated - no matter how politely and clearly they make this basic request - you can count on those they are addressing to start making tone arguments and getting really defensive. Realistically, I think it's important to have in mind the difference between when someone is calling out something you said/did bigoted, and when they are calling you out as being a bigot. The former gives the benefit of the doubt that these words/deeds came from simply not knowing better and seeks to inform accordingly; the latter is a serious accusation on a whole other plane.

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #83 on: October 07, 2013, 11:55:07 PM »
I can't properly review the thread until late tonight but I thought I read something earlier amidst the government talk that I'd appreciate clarification on.

TSO, do you believe there should be legal enforcement of respect for gender identity, and, by direct extension, legal consequences for those that misgender someone?

EDIT: I should clarify that I'm asking in the social sense, not the business sense.
The answer to that extends into the greater question of whether bullying should be punished in a civil or criminal fashion, and to that I conditionally say yes. I think if we were going to codify such behavior as civilly or criminally liable, there would need to be clear evidence that the accused intended to inflict harm or intimidation. It's one thing to just be an insensitive jerk, it's a whole different level to verbally assault someone in an attempt to inflict harm. It really comes down to whether intent to cause harm or intimidation can be proven without a doubt. If it can be proven, then why shouldn't the bully be punished?

Just because there isn't physical damage caused doesn't make it right, emotional harm can be just as damaging if not more so. Victims are oftentimes driven to inflict self-harm or other sorts of trauma, and regardless of that it creates strong feelings of anxiety and distress. And if intimidation is the goal, then it's likely the bully is targeting indiscriminately and is a greater threat to society at large. Saying the victim should just grow thicker skin or stop being so sensitive, or worse, should curb their behavior as to not welcome ridicule from others, is victim blaming. "Asking for it" is not a valid excuse in a civilized society. To be in society is learning to peacefully coexist with people who may be very different from eachother, and if some members can't, their behaviors need to be punished. As the majority it's their civic responsibility to be accommodating for minorities, as society will naturally give the majority preferential treatment.

I think in the cases of occasional misgendering, it'd be hard to prove actual malice was involved. I think those cases would be greatly reduced by public education and awareness. If there was a pattern of someone indiscriminately misgendering or possibly even singling out gender variant persons for ridicule, then an intent to cause harm or intimidation could be inferred and I would say yes this kind of behavior could be civilly or criminally punished. In those cases it makes perfect sense for the government to step in to maintain public safety and protect victims of such. The only reason why bullying is so pervasive is because the punishments for such are frankly nonexistent. Not only is it not punished, but the victim is further blamed and scored for being complicit, it's their fault they're getting bullied or for being so sensitive to it.

Abuse is abuse, no matter what form it takes. We punish parents for abusing their children verbally, why shouldn't adults who pick on people for "not conforming" be punished as well? It's not acceptable in a civilized society, it disturbs the peace and marginalizes those who are being victimized, Government is given power to maintain the peace for a reason, so that it can be applied fairly and justly. Not everyone has a posse that will have their back for them when they get targeted for bullying. The world does not have to be a mean place. Through education and discouraging acts by making people liable for their actions, it sends the message such behavior is not appropriate.

Here's another question to throw on the pile: Is it agreed that bigotry is entirely and solely based upon a conscious decision to hate? That is, someone is not a bigot merely by being ignorant of trans issues, only by consciously knowing what a trans is and consciously deciding to hate them based on that knowledge.
Yes. That doesn't mean someone can't unconsciously be prejudiced, it only becomes bigotry when such behavior is exposed and they continue to do so. Or instead of listening, they choose to shoot the messenger. Like Ammy said, oftentimes minorities or those being marginalized are told their "tone is wrong", and it's another manner they are being silenced. Marginalized people are told the problem the majority won't accept them is because their message is too "harsh" or "strange". Sorry, it's not the minority's responsibility to formulate their message to be palatable to the majority, it's the majority's responsibility to listen. I am gentle with my words because I understand as a civilized human being that kinder words will come across better, but it's not my responsibility to hold my tongue. A common abuse of privilege is telling minorities to be accepted they need to shut up, or by framing issues being raised by minorities as rocking the boat.

That being said, I think there needs to be a better attempt made at separating "bigoted actions" from "being a bigot". On the same token I think the majority needs to better understand why the marginalized may not be nearly as patient at doing so though, especially when being silenced is a significant issue to this day.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 12:25:58 AM by helvetica »


Twitter: @hipsterfont | Discord: helvetica#0573 | LINE: hipsterfont

He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Kilgamayan

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #84 on: October 08, 2013, 01:20:32 AM »
Then how would you word such a law so it would be difficult, if not impossible, to abuse? If intent is a key component of it, how would one "prove" intent?
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
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[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

helvetica

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #85 on: October 08, 2013, 01:40:56 AM »
I would word it similarly to the legal standard of depraved indifference or malice, that they were aware and intentionally or at the very least did not care that their actions were going to cause harm. These are already established legal standards of intent. So are hate crime standards such as intent to intimidate.

For example, the situation with Mike (Gabe) of Penny Arcade would fall under this. His original comment may not be provably considered malicious, but his followup actions would easily pass the standards of malice or intimidation. He demeaned and attacked people who tried to correct him and pointed people out for ridicule and shame.

An ignorant comment by itself would be hard to prove as actionable unless depraved indiffence could be shown by a history of similar comments, or if the nature of the comment would pass the standard of malice or intimidation to a judge or jury.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 01:48:35 AM by helvetica »


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Stuffman

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #86 on: October 08, 2013, 02:15:51 AM »
So uh.

You think he should be in prison?

helvetica

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #87 on: October 08, 2013, 02:37:25 AM »
No, but I still think he should be held to civil or other criminal penalties. Criminal penalties doesn't necessarily mean prison time. Fines and community service working with anti-bullying groups and definitely some sort of anger management course are potential avenues for criminal consequences.

Prison should be reserved for the truly violent or dangerous. I'm of the mind criminal punishment should be aimed at rehabilitation, not punitive measures. Prison should only be used if there's a significant threat to society by them being free. As much as an asshole Mike is, he's not enough of a threat to warrant jail time, unless he was actually directly harassing people by showing up at their door and screaming at them.

It would do nobody any good to lock him up. He learns nothing other than how to become a hardened criminal, and in effect becomes a martyr for other assholes. By making him work with and see the problems the people he's disparaging face on a daily basis may kindle a level of understanding and true remorse for his actions, and if not, at the very least he's paying back to society.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 03:43:03 AM by helvetica »


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Zil

Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #88 on: October 08, 2013, 05:36:18 AM »
Do laws about harassment and hate crimes not already cover this kind of thing?

helvetica

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #89 on: October 08, 2013, 06:21:03 AM »
Standards for libel and slander are much tougher in America, mostly for good reason. The right to free speech is strongly protected. There is a very fine line between actual defamation and "defamation" because they don't want the truth coming out. This is a significant problem in Europe where slander and libel suits are used to suppress media and any sort of negative information about the powerful and connected.

It's a very hard line to walk I'll admit. I just wish there was an easy way to be a lot tougher on bullies without possibly creating tools to suppress dissent.


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."