Author Topic: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom  (Read 55558 times)

helvetica

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2013, 02:01:50 AM »
@Mimeslayer

Gender is a social construct, there is no significant wiring or predetermined behavior between different genders. I do feminine things and act feminine not because I am wired to like cooking and cleaning but because those activities and behaviors are considered feminine and that's how I wish to be recognized by society as.

Sex is a different concept entirely. That is literally which parts your body wants or thinks it should have. This can be prewired but doesn't necessarily have to be. I get physical symptoms of dysphoria, but not everyone trans does. Some love their bodies, they just donn't agree with society pidgeonholing them based on the junk between their legs.

What parts you are born with pretty much mean jack squat when it comes to your gender. Unfortunately society thinks otherwise and a lot of people, cis and gender variant alike, are forced into behaviors and such because of it. Even worse is how there are a significant number of transpersons who do not wish to transition, but are forced to take hormones and have surgeries in order for society to recognize them.

This is why judging someone's gender based on your standards of femininity or masculinity is wrong and hurtful. You force people into boxes and to act and do things that may be very detrimental to them physically and mentally in order to seek acceptance.

There is no binary, no black and white guy/girl. What you like and how you act do not determine where you fall on that, you do. It is a spectrum. There are guys who are perfectly OK with being dudes but like looking and presenting girly in society. There are girls who want to look pretty and play sports. There are people who feel labelling themselves as man or woman limits them too much; it forces standards and expectations they do not wish to be trapped by. There are people who feel girly one day and manly the next and just roll with it. It is very unlikely you will remain the same gender your entire life, but thanks to the binary you're being told you're stuck with what you got and you have certain things you can and can't do.

@hungrybookworm

Thank you for the well wishes. I'm not too worried about myself. I've become exceedingly resilient since I've begun transitioning and living full time. While it does hurt me when it happens, I know what I'm doing is right for me and nobody can tell me otherwise. What I'm really hoping is by sharing my experiences and by trying to educate, other people won't have to go through the things I did. I blaze a trail, not just for transpeople, not just for women, but for humanity, to give the power to you to decide what you want to be, rather than society determining that based on your skin, your parts, or how you choose to present yourself.

I'm a girl studying to be a scientist, a field many women are told they don't belong in. I'm a girl who's way into gaming, an industry women are made into memes and troupes rather than taken seriously. And above all that, I'm trans, struggling in a world that wants to tell you the junk between your legs determines your path in life. I'm hoping that by putting myself out in the open I can do more than just carve a little chunk of happiness for myself, even if it means I end up sacrificing a bit of it to help others find their own.


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Stuffman

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2013, 02:40:09 AM »
I'm lost.

If you can't ascribe any kind of behavior or appearance to a gender, then why isn't gender meaningless? If it's literally nothing more than "I say I'm a man, therefore I'm a man" then saying "I'm a man" is pointless because it doesn't tell you anything about me. In fact, having the labels at all is counterproductive.

tl;dr WHAT IS A MAN

commandercool

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2013, 02:44:10 AM »
I'm lost.

If you can't ascribe any kind of behavior or appearance to a gender, then why isn't gender meaningless? If it's literally nothing more than "I say I'm a man, therefore I'm a man" then saying "I'm a man" is pointless because it doesn't tell you anything about me. In fact, having the labels at all is counterproductive.

tl;dr WHAT IS A MAN

That is true. Gender ultimately doesn't have strong implications, or doesn't have to. Some people identify strongly by their genders, but that's a personal tendency to associate oneself with a social construct, not anything more. It's like saying "I'm white". Being "white" is fairly meaningless scientifically, and is so vague as to be nearly useless. It does tend to have some physiological indicators statistically, but nothing that you can really define a person by unless they choose to embody "whiteness". You can project whiteness or maleness or whatever onto someone, but that doesn't necessarily tell you much about them.

MAN IS REAL VAGUE/KIND OF A SHITTY EVALUATIVE TOOL.
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Zil

Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2013, 03:22:14 AM »
Well I was just in the process of writing something but now it seems it was completely wrong so I'm going to worry about that now.

What I was thinking just now was that gender seems to be binary. i.e. you're either male or female gender-wise, at least in the vast majority of cases. If not, then the whole situation makes a lot less sense, since the genders are seemingly tied to the sexes, and there are more or less only two of those. That means that this thing I hear a lot about gender being a social construct can't really be true. Gender must be tied to your sex or the notion of being transgender doesn't make any sense. Defining things like that makes concept of transgender easy to understand, but some other things don't make sense, which I won't bother bringing up anymore.

Now seeing TSO's post I have to define things differently. And I think there are two things being conflated here. It seems the concept of gender doesn't really need to exist, since each gender is a collection of traits which have been arbitrarily grouped together and assigned to a given sex. Gender as a social construct is something I'm more inclined to agree with anyway, so that's cool, so I think I can just ignore the concept of gender. But now I have to wonder about what being transgender means. It seems to me like it means you have interests that aren't what society expects from you, but is there something more than that as well? Why do we need the concept of transgender? That word to me suggests that there is a binary. Like I'm not one gender and therefore I'm the other. The word itself seems to support the idea that gender is not only binary, but is also dependent on biology. It literally draws its meaning from the pre-existent (and apparently faulty) idea of gender. You could just as well, and perhaps less confusingly, call someone girly or boyish.

And then I don't see the need to worry about pronouns. It's seems they're being given far more significance than they need. If someone is biologically male, and has interests that society commonly associates with women, why should he use a feminine pronoun? Or more precisely, why should a person's pronoun reflect that person's interests/personality rather than biological sex? Pronouns (in English at least) are binary, but personalities are definitively NOT binary. On the other hand, sex is binary and so having the pronouns depend on that seems to make perfect sense, especially since it doesn't require intimate knowledge of the person in question before you could even use the pronouns.

So for the most part, I don't think I see much reason for the word transgender to be used as it is, since it is very misleading. The same with fiddling with pronouns. I think they actually support the idea of binary gender. That's thinking about people who's interests are just not what society expects, anyway. I don't think any special distinction is warranted. On the other hand, I think there are other issues which are thrown under the same name which are more appropriate to distinguish. i.e. I can believe in the potential for some biological dissonance between brain and body (like, male brain female body, or vice versa), based upon hormones and whatever. I won't deny the existence of situations similar to that. It seems TSO has some experience of it. In that case I'm more okay with the pronoun bit, since the situation is biological. I still don't like the word "transgender" though, and I especially don't like how inclusive it seems to be. I've seen it said that some transgender people don't mind being thought of as their biological sex, and just act unexpectedly or whatever. I don't think people like that should have a special word for them. They're just people who act differently from how society expects. And I don't think the concept of gender should be acknowledged or used in these discussions. Like how TSO said "It is very unlikely you will remain the same gender your entire life" I can only see two ways of interpreting that. Either it just means "your interests and personality will change," in which case it could have been worded like that, and is fairly obvious to begin with, or it means "your gender will change between male and female," which to me suggests that there is a binary, which is wrong. Either way the statement is immensely confusing.

Not trying to be offensive with anything I write here, just to make it clear.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 03:27:21 AM by Zil »

helvetica

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2013, 03:28:53 AM »
I'm lost.

If you can't ascribe any kind of behavior or appearance to a gender, then why isn't gender meaningless? If it's literally nothing more than "I say I'm a man, therefore I'm a man" then saying "I'm a man" is pointless because it doesn't tell you anything about me. In fact, having the labels at all is counterproductive.

tl;dr WHAT IS A MAN
Because breaking down gender barriers doesn't mean crushing identities. People can still identify as male or female or whatever. The idea is they get to choose and decide what it means to be a man or a woman or whatever, not you. Labels are not for giving you an easy list of stereotypes to break down people into. Labels are things people are proud of and want to be identified by. You shouldn't feel compelled to do something to maintain a label though, nor even feel compelled to even label yourself.

That is true. Gender ultimately doesn't have strong implications, or doesn't have to. Some people identify strongly by their genders, but that's a personal tendency to associate oneself with a social construct, not anything more. It's like saying "I'm white". Being "white" is fairly meaningless scientifically, and is so vague as to be nearly useless. It does tend to have some physiological indicators statistically, but nothing that you can really define a person by unless they choose to embody "whiteness". You can project whiteness or maleness or whatever onto someone, but that doesn't necessarily tell you much about them.

MAN IS REAL VAGUE/KIND OF A SHITTY EVALUATIVE TOOL.
Just because something is a social construct doesn't make it invalid as an identity. It just means it's pretty much made up and isn't based on any fact, but based on conjecture and social pressures of the time. Recognizing gender identity as a construct just means that we recognize that it is completely fluid; what could be considered feminine or masculine today may not have been 50 years ago, nor may be 50 years from now. So in that sense, trying to pidgeonhole people into certain roles or behaviors based on their chosen identity is pointless and counterproductive, because there's no real basis to them. People will still naturally strive for "femininity" or "masculinity" or what have you, that's the part of gender that is innate.

I will fully admit to doing certain things simply because it makes me feel girly. But I recognize it's an artificial construct and I do not beat myself up or feel unfeminine if I don't enjoy all the girly things. I don't force myself to do things in order to fill a quota of femininity, nor do I shirk myself away from liking things because they may be considered more "masculine". Because there really isn't anything masculine or feminine to anything we like or do, so if I really like something it shouldn't matter where it lands, nor should I force myself to do something I really don't want to just because it aligns with my gender. It's just society sticking labels on such in a way to shuffle people towards certain roles.


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Shadoweh

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2013, 03:52:39 AM »
I think talking about social constructs of gender is confusing some people? My understanding of transgender, from having lived with multiple transgendered people, isn't someone who wants to 'present' as a man or a woman, but someone who is born as one gender but deeply at the core of their being understands they're the opposite. One of them told me about drawing pictures of herself transformed into a woman at age 5, just knowing intuitively that that's what she was. The pronouns are important for the same reasons they're important to everyone: Men want to be called men and women want to be called women. Being born in the wrong shell doesn't change that.

As a Woman on the Internet (tm) I've let people assume my username is male before just because it's easier, but it never stopped bothering me. I can only imagine it's times a hundred for transgendered women and men. With cons from an outsider's perspective, I always got the impression some people think it's a game to 'guess' what gender someone dressed up really is, like a terrible episode of Jerry Springer. No one should have to feel like they're trying to fool people into seeing them as they really are. They should just be able to be and have people accept it. I have hopes that the world is going towards acceptance, despite the best efforts of terrible Russian politicians and old white people.


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commandercool

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2013, 03:54:07 AM »
Just because something is a social construct doesn't make it invalid as an identity. It just means it's pretty much made up and isn't based on any fact, but based on conjecture and social pressures of the time. Recognizing gender identity as a construct just means that we recognize that it is completely fluid; what could be considered feminine or masculine today may not have been 50 years ago, nor may be 50 years from now. So in that sense, trying to pidgeonhole people into certain roles or behaviors based on their chosen identity is pointless and counterproductive, because there's no real basis to them. People will still naturally strive for "femininity" or "masculinity" or what have you, that's the part of gender that is innate.

I will fully admit to doing certain things simply because it makes me feel girly. But I recognize it's an artificial construct and I do not beat myself up or feel unfeminine if I don't enjoy all the girly things. I don't force myself to do things in order to fill a quota of femininity, nor do I shirk myself away from liking things because they may be considered more "masculine". Because there really isn't anything masculine or feminine to anything we like or do, so if I really like something it shouldn't matter where it lands, nor should I force myself to do something I really don't want to just because it aligns with my gender. It's just society sticking labels on such in a way to shuffle people towards certain roles.

I gotta admit that I'm not totally following you here. Maybe it's just that I'm really tired from a long day of work and school. But I'll clarify that I understand that some people, probably a lot of people, identify themselves with gender to varying degrees. Just like race, culture, or any other social construct. Great, I have no problems with that, and certainly wouldn't suggest that people should or should not do anything in particular for those reasons. All I'm saying is that gender is an unreliable enough thing that trying to use it to identify someone else probably isn't going to produce useful results often enough to be worth doing. I hope I'm making sense and also not totally misunderstanding what you're saying.
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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2013, 04:05:03 AM »
tl;dr

Transgenders aren't traps, they're what they've turned into except genetically. Actual traps still have the other tool. Being afraid of them for having born as something else is much like refusing a recycled product because it came from trash. Other than that, everyone has different personalities so we shouldn't go by the male/female stereotype, fuck the manly/girly thing.

That's my brief word on it, kthxbye.

helvetica

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2013, 04:05:59 AM »
Well I was just in the process of writing something but now it seems it was completely wrong so I'm going to worry about that now.

What I was thinking just now was that gender seems to be binary. i.e. you're either male or female gender-wise, at least in the vast majority of cases. If not, then the whole situation makes a lot less sense, since the genders are seemingly tied to the sexes, and there are more or less only two of those. That means that this thing I hear a lot about gender being a social construct can't really be true. Gender must be tied to your sex or the notion of being transgender doesn't make any sense. Defining things like that makes concept of transgender easy to understand, but some other things don't make sense, which I won't bother bringing up anymore.
You're conflating gender roles and gender identity. It's very simple, gender is the amalgamation of your personality and likes and dislikes and how you wish to present, as x or y or @, gender roles are what society tells people they have to do in order to be considered those genders. Sex is completely different, and is strictly the physical parts you have. And even that isn't a binary. Intersexed individuals exist and not all of them wish to be "corrected" to one or the other.

Quote
Now seeing TSO's post I have to define things differently. And I think there are two things being conflated here. It seems the concept of gender doesn't really need to exist, since each gender is a collection of traits which have been arbitrarily grouped together and assigned to a given sex. Gender as a social construct is something I'm more inclined to agree with anyway, so that's cool, so I think I can just ignore the concept of gender. But now I have to wonder about what being transgender means. It seems to me like it means you have interests that aren't what society expects from you, but is there something more than that as well? Why do we need the concept of transgender? That word to me suggests that there is a binary. Like I'm not one gender and therefore I'm the other. The word itself seems to support the idea that gender is not only binary, but is also dependent on biology. It literally draws its meaning from the pre-existent (and apparently faulty) idea of gender. You could just as well, and perhaps less confusingly, call someone girly or boyish.
Gender doesn't just go away because the roles are artificially assigned by society. People can still be predispositioned towards one or the other or somewhere in between or neither. People still "feel" feminine and masculine, and it's society that determines by and large what is considered "feminine" and "masculine" for now. Even in a "genderless" society, feminine and masculine will still exist, but instead of society determining that, the individual will. There are also countless societies in history that have some sort of a third or trans gender concept as well, so to act as if the western idea of man and a woman is the only right one is pretty narrow minded. To continue to equate behaviors as naturally "boyish" or "girly" also continues to perpetuate gender roles set by society, rather than individuals getting to choose the gender they identify as.

Quote
And then I don't see the need to worry about pronouns. It's seems they're being given far more significance than they need. If someone is biologically male, and has interests that society commonly associates with women, why should he use a feminine pronoun? Or more precisely, why should a person's pronoun reflect that person's interests/personality rather than biological sex? Pronouns (in English at least) are binary, but personalities are definitively NOT binary. On the other hand, sex is binary and so having the pronouns depend on that seems to make perfect sense, especially since it doesn't require intimate knowledge of the person in question before you could even use the pronouns.
You're taking wayyyyyyyyyyyy too far of a logic leap there. Pronouns are the social expression of gender. You're also again, conflating sex with gender. What parts you have between your legs does not have any relevance to who you are or what you like as a person. You're just as likely to be a macho dude as a girly guy. And again, sex is NOT binary. Intersexed individuals exist, and they are oftentimes forcibly corrected to one or the other without their knowledge or anyone's consent.

Your chromosomes don't determine your sex either. There are XY girls and XX guys and you can have multiple Xs or Ys (as long as you have at least one X). Look up complete androgen insensitivity syndrome. These are girls, completely biologically on the outside, who are actually XY. Their body does not respond to androgens at all, and without them it reverts to female. The human body is naturally female unless told otherwise by testosterone, and any one of a million different things can and do go "wrong" all the time that may be a cause or at least a factor in gender and sex variation.

And even then, sex isn't pinned to the parts you have, but what parts your mind thinks it should have. My mind and my body do not agree at all with each other at all. I get physically ill when I am reminded I have a male body. That's because my mind is wired to think it's supposed to be female. When I flipped over to female hormones, a lot of my psychological problems and my anxiety disappeared overnight. Once my mind started getting the hormones it was wired to it was like a light switch finally turned on. But this is my narrative, not everyone is like this. Not everyone wants or needs hormones, some just need to express themselves or do whatever they need to do to make themselves comfortable in their skin.

Quote
So for the most part, I don't think I see much reason for the word transgender to be used as it is, since it is very misleading. The same with fiddling with pronouns. I think they actually support the idea of binary gender. That's thinking about people who's interests are just not what society expects, anyway. I don't think any special distinction is warranted. On the other hand, I think there are other issues which are thrown under the same name which are more appropriate to distinguish. i.e. I can believe in the potential for some biological dissonance between brain and body (like, male brain female body, or vice versa), based upon hormones and whatever. I won't deny the existence of situations similar to that. It seems TSO has some experience of it. In that case I'm more okay with the pronoun bit, since the situation is biological. I still don't like the word "transgender" though, and I especially don't like how inclusive it seems to be. I've seen it said that some transgender people don't mind being thought of as their biological sex, and just act unexpectedly or whatever. I don't think people like that should have a special word for them. They're just people who act differently from how society expects. And I don't think the concept of gender should be acknowledged or used in these discussions. Like how TSO said "It is very unlikely you will remain the same gender your entire life" I can only see two ways of interpreting that. Either it just means "your interests and personality will change," in which case it could have been worded like that, and is fairly obvious to begin with, or it means "your gender will change between male and female," which to me suggests that there is a binary, which is wrong. Either way the statement is immensely confusing.

Not trying to be offensive with anything I write here, just to make it clear.
Again, the parts between your legs have no relevance to what goes inside your head, and can actually be completely different to the parts your mind thinks it should have. Being a girl doesn't mean having a vagina, nor a boy a penis. Not all transgirls or guys hate their body, they simply wish to be treated as female or male by society and transition as such. Not all transgirls or guys even want to get any sort of surgery or hormones. And then there's people who are fine with being treated "male" but want a female body, or visa versa. And this isn't even talking about people who are intersexed, or fall somewhere in between or outside the gender spectrum. Gender is NOT black and white at all. There are people who do not consider themselves male or female (androgyny), or consider themselves aspects of both (bigender)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer

My narrative is strictly my own, just because the media has been portraying a bunch of little kids that were fiercely female or male since birth doesn't mean every trans or genderqueer person falls into that category. My roommate didn't know he was trans until after he moved in with me. When I met him he was in a Keine cosplay and he straight up told me he felt this was crossplay (he was still identifying as female at the time). He had always expressed some level of dissatisfaction with his body and presentation, but it never clicked until he met me and hung out with other transpersons and explored it deeper. I have another friend who may possibly transition to be more male, doesn't feel male or female, just kind of in between or neither.

I knew my entire life, and I had a rather unique situation where I also knew about transgenderism at a very young age as well thanks to my intelligence, but not everyone gets that choice. Even though I was aware of it, I still grew up with this sinking feeling that I was the only one in the world who questioned whether they should have been born as the opposite sex. Some people go through life with a vague feeling of detachment or dissatisfaction without being able to actually pin it on gender due to lack of awareness. Not everyone knows that gender isn't fixed to your parts and that forcing yourself to act a way you're not is harmful.

As for "not having a special word", transgenderism is a recognized medical term describing people who's gender identity does not align with the gender assigned to them by society. There's nothing made up about the pain and suffering it causes, or the almost miraculous relief obtained when someone is finally able to present and act and be treated in the manner they identify to. Transgender doesn't necessarily mean male to female or visa versa, it could be male to something in between, or female to neither. And that's completely separate from people who wish to transition their physical body to match the gender they ascribe to.

I think talking about social constructs of gender is confusing some people? My understanding of transgender, from having lived with multiple transgendered people, isn't someone who wants to 'present' as a man or a woman, but someone who is born as one gender but deeply at the core of their being understands they're the opposite. One of them told me about drawing pictures of herself transformed into a woman at age 5, just knowing intuitively that that's what she was. The pronouns are important for the same reasons they're important to everyone: Men want to be called men and women want to be called women. Being born in the wrong shell doesn't change that.
That's similar to my narrative, but that's not the only narrative that exists. There's people out there that simply wish to be identified as a woman or man but have no desire to change their body at all, they're ok with it. There's people out there that wish to be considered both or neither, because they feel either their gender identity contains aspects of both or isn't covered by either.

Quote
As a Woman on the Internet (tm) I've let people assume my username is male before just because it's easier, but it never stopped bothering me. I can only imagine it's times a hundred for transgendered women and men. With cons from an outsider's perspective, I always got the impression some people think it's a game to 'guess' what gender someone dressed up really is, like a terrible episode of Jerry Springer. No one should have to feel like they're trying to fool people into seeing them as they really are. They should just be able to be and have people accept it. I have hopes that the world is going towards acceptance, despite the best efforts of terrible Russian politicians and old white people.
Yeah there's a tendency for some people to do "spot the dude in a dress" or whatever, and that is really shitty :S

I gotta admit that I'm not totally following you here. Maybe it's just that I'm really tired from a long day of work and school. But I'll clarify that I understand that some people, probably a lot of people, identify themselves with gender to varying degrees. Just like race, culture, or any other social construct. Great, I have no problems with that, and certainly wouldn't suggest that people should or should not do anything in particular for those reasons. All I'm saying is that gender is an unreliable enough thing that trying to use it to identify someone else probably isn't going to produce useful results often enough to be worth doing. I hope I'm making sense and also not totally misunderstanding what you're saying.
Race, culture, gender are all social constructs, but they're still facets of a person's identity. Just because race is a social construct doesn't change the fact people are born with black or white or pink skin and people tend to take identity from it. Just because culture is a social construct doesn't change the fact some people are drawn together based on shared heritage or other similarities and use that to identify themselves by. And just because society is making up what is feminine or masculine doesn't change the fact people identify feminine or masculine or both or neither or what have you. It's society telling them what they have to do to be considered their internal identity, and that's what needs to be destroyed. Whether it's race, culture, gender, or whatever, that's what needs to be torn down. Not people's identities, society telling them what they have to do in order for other people to accept their identites.

Saying that race, culture, and gender are irrelevant for identity because they're social constructs dismisses people the right to individuality. It boils everyone down to greyish blobs of humanlike matter. No, everyone is different for a wide variety of reasons, the social concepts of race, culture, and gender are combined with internal predispositions of personality and desire to make the individual. You are an amalgamation of both your internal nature, and the environment you were raised in. The answer to nature vs. nurture is that it's a bit of both that makes a person, and that by removing one or the other you're causing psychological harm.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 04:17:03 AM by helvetica »


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


commandercool

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2013, 04:28:41 AM »
Race, culture, gender are all social constructs, but they're still facets of a person's identity. Just because race is a social construct doesn't change the fact people are born with black or white or pink skin and people tend to take identity from it. Just because culture is a social construct doesn't change the fact some people are drawn together based on shared heritage or other similarities and use that to identify themselves by. And just because society is making up what is feminine or masculine doesn't change the fact people identify feminine or masculine or both or neither or what have you. It's society telling them what they have to do to be considered their internal identity, and that's what needs to be destroyed. Whether it's race, culture, gender, or whatever, that's what needs to be torn down. Not people's identities, society telling them what they have to do in order for other people to accept their identites.

Saying that race, culture, and gender are irrelevant for identity because they're social constructs dismisses people the right to individuality. It boils everyone down to greyish blobs of humanlike matter. No, everyone is different for a wide variety of reasons, the social concepts of race, culture, and gender are combined with internal predispositions of personality and desire to make the individual. You are an amalgamation of both your internal nature, and the environment you were raised in. The answer to nature vs. nurture is that it's a bit of both that makes a person, and that by removing one or the other you're causing psychological harm.

I don't think we disagree here, or at least not on much. The only thing I'm trying to say that isn't exactly what you're saying here is that I don't think there's much merit in trying to apply traits of socially constructed identities to other people. People are going to build their own identities out of pieces of these constructs, but that doesn't mean that they're broadly applicable because there's no guarantee that a given person will identify with any particular part of them. I can use them to inform and shape my identity, but I shouldn't use them to try to identify other people. Does that make sense, or is there part of that that you don't think works?
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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #40 on: October 04, 2013, 04:32:15 AM »
@Mimeslayer

Gender is a social construct, there is no significant wiring or predetermined behavior between different genders. I do feminine things and act feminine not because I am wired to like cooking and cleaning but because those activities and behaviors are considered feminine and that's how I wish to be recognized by society as.

Sex is a different concept entirely. That is literally which parts your body wants or thinks it should have. This can be prewired but doesn't necessarily have to be. I get physical symptoms of dysphoria, but not everyone trans does. Some love their bodies, they just donn't agree with society pidgeonholing them based on the junk between their legs.

What parts you are born with pretty much mean jack squat when it comes to your gender. Unfortunately society thinks otherwise and a lot of people, cis and gender variant alike, are forced into behaviors and such because of it. Even worse is how there are a significant number of transpersons who do not wish to transition, but are forced to take hormones and have surgeries in order for society to recognize them.

This is why judging someone's gender based on your standards of femininity or masculinity is wrong and hurtful. You force people into boxes and to act and do things that may be very detrimental to them physically and mentally in order to seek acceptance.

There is no binary, no black and white guy/girl. What you like and how you act do not determine where you fall on that, you do. It is a spectrum. There are guys who are perfectly OK with being dudes but like looking and presenting girly in society. There are girls who want to look pretty and play sports. There are people who feel labelling themselves as man or woman limits them too much; it forces standards and expectations they do not wish to be trapped by. There are people who feel girly one day and manly the next and just roll with it. It is very unlikely you will remain the same gender your entire life, but thanks to the binary you're being told you're stuck with what you got and you have certain things you can and can't do.

Ouch. This is what I was afraid of; I tried to sound neutral without tipping my hand and instead I guess I came off sounding like I'm taking a side that, ironically, I disagree with.  :ohdear: I'm sorry if it sounded like I am of the opinion of binary genders and other such opinions. I guess I should've been a little more open about why I posted in this thread.

This is a really hard post though.

I'll start off by jumping off the high-dive into the deep in; I honestly feel like I'm some sort of gender varient. I say "gender varient" and not transgender because just about every time I have done so in the past has led to nothing but problems no matter where I turn. As I said last post I've met people, both trans and cis, who believe in binary genders. They believe you are a guy, a girl, or one stuck in the body of the other. No middle ground, no umbrella, nothing. I don't agree with that, especially because I don't feel that way, but according to them that's basically impossible (and actually rude to say otherwise). It's honestly a relief to hear someone like helvetica say otherwise.

I have no idea where to turn, though, because of this seemingly prevalent binary gender belief. I wan't answers, even if I have to figure them out for myself, but I don't know where to start. I've been told flat-out by a gender-therapist no. The friends and family that know don't agree with me (or flat-out think I'm just some sort of sick fetishist). It honestly feels like I can't even seek to join a LGBT club at school because of this whole thing. Even now I really, really don't want to hit "POST" because I'm sure that something I said will piss somebody off.

*deep breath*

Sorry if it feels like I'm whining, I'm honestly trying not to. Again I'm sorry for being so stupid last time; I should just be more honest I suppose.

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2013, 04:45:30 AM »
I don't think we disagree here, or at least not on much. The only thing I'm trying to say that isn't exactly what you're saying here is that I don't think there's much merit in trying to apply traits of socially constructed identities to other people. People are going to build their own identities out of pieces of these constructs, but that doesn't mean that they're broadly applicable because there's no guarantee that a given person will identify with any particular part of them. I can use them to inform and shape my identity, but I shouldn't use them to try to identify other people. Does that make sense, or is there part of that that you don't think works?
Nope that's it exactly. Let people identify themselves and let them speak for themselves. And don't put people into boxes because they chose certain identities.

Ouch. This is what I was afraid of; I tried to sound neutral without tipping my hand and instead I guess I came off sounding like I'm taking a side that, ironically, I disagree with.  :ohdear: I'm sorry if it sounded like I am of the opinion of binary genders and other such opinions. I guess I should've been a little more open about why I posted in this thread.

This is a really hard post though.

I'll start off by jumping off the high-dive into the deep in; I honestly feel like I'm some sort of gender varient. I say "gender varient" and not transgender because just about every time I have done so in the past has led to nothing but problems no matter where I turn. As I said last post I've met people, both trans and cis, who believe in binary genders. They believe you are a guy, a girl, or one stuck in the body of the other. No middle ground, no umbrella, nothing. I don't agree with that, especially because I don't feel that way, but according to them that's basically impossible (and actually rude to say otherwise). It's honestly a relief to hear someone like helvetica say otherwise.

I have no idea where to turn, though, because of this seemingly prevalent binary gender belief. I wan't answers, even if I have to figure them out for myself, but I don't know where to start. I've been told flat-out by a gender-therapist no. The friends and family that know don't agree with me (or flat-out think I'm just some sort of sick fetishist). It honestly feels like I can't even seek to join a LGBT club at school because of this whole thing. Even now I really, really don't want to hit "POST" because I'm sure that something I said will piss somebody off.

*deep breath*

Sorry if it feels like I'm whining, I'm honestly trying not to. Again I'm sorry for being so stupid last time; I should just be more honest I suppose.
That sucks. The binary is an awful thing for everyone, including people who fit on it. I admit as a full card carrying member of the binary too. I am a girl and I will always be a girl, you cannot tell me otherwise. I would much rather be a tomboy than a girly guy any day of the week if it came down to it. But because of the binary there's a strong tendency for me to ditch certain likes I have and change behaviors I don't necessarily mind because they're not seen as feminine. There's a strong tendency to force myself to like certain things just because they're considered girly. The same pressures apply to cisgendered people as well. I'm sure a lot of you have been told to "man up" or that's "not ladylike". The binary sucks for everyone.

As for therapy, that's one of the areas there still needs to be a lot of work. My therapist is pretty much against people who don't fit on the binary as well. She's told people she doesn't think they're feminine if they're too fat. I pretty much just used her to get my hormone approval and ran off. There's still a significant number of "old school" (aka, back when transgenderism was considered a sexual deviancy) who force people to meet certain standards of masculinity or femininity before they'll approve transition-related treatments. There's still a lot of old school trans persons who find the idea of someone being outside of the gender binary repugnant, or worse, a threat. Same with some lesbian and gay folk, they just think you're really gay and won't admit it. It's all a bunch of stupid crap. People should be free to identify however they want, it's not harming anyone and if it makes someone feel more comfortable in their skin go for it. As someone who had to struggle with the mental complications of dysphoria, I would not wish it on anyone, even if they didn't exactly fit into a comfortable box for me.

If you want someone to talk to, feel free to poke me outside of here. I'm more than happy to lend an ear or at least a supportive shoulder. And I wasn't trying to pin you as anything for or against, more so was just trying to clarify.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 04:50:34 AM by helvetica »


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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2013, 07:37:57 AM »
Why is this on the front page and not in Letty Journal ???

Because it is talking about a very legitimate social issue that isn't just happening in the convention scene or the fandom, but is very much a reality in society as we know it today. It may come off as such due to the personal narrative woven into it, but I personally believe it simply helps in reinforcing the need to spread awareness of the issue. I think it is about time there was some reasonable discourse on it, naturally. Of course, I speak as somewhat of an outlier in the transgender spectrum (and hence I too have a personal investment in the matter - having been labelled as 'half-man/half-woman' by my peers on many separate occasions), classifying myself as strictly bi-gender... I have talked to close people about this, indeed, I see myself as someone who fleetingly switch between the masculine and feminine aspects on a whim, though of course, I do find myself more attached to my feminine identity.

In fact, I think TSO already mentioned the concept of a bi-gender in a previous post. Go check it out.

Let's put the spotlight back on those who it's meant for - the ones whose point of view Helvetica is trying to highlight. They can be hurt by someone's ignorant blunder, and sure, the blame can be put on the person who sir'ed the female transgender, or the mangaka who was confused by a certain person in a photo-shoot. But are they really to be blamed? Maybe. But certainly not more than 50% of the blame. Who, then, is responsible for this unresolved pain that might end up as a column such as this one?

The point of this discourse isn't to point fingers at anybody, it's to ensure that this sort of misunderstanding doesn't repeat itself again, and how we can ensure that everybody gets the respect that they deserve.

I'll start off by jumping off the high-dive into the deep in; I honestly feel like I'm some sort of gender varient. I say "gender varient" and not transgender because just about every time I have done so in the past has led to nothing but problems no matter where I turn. As I said last post I've met people, both trans and cis, who believe in binary genders. They believe you are a guy, a girl, or one stuck in the body of the other. No middle ground, no umbrella, nothing. I don't agree with that, especially because I don't feel that way, but according to them that's basically impossible (and actually rude to say otherwise). It's honestly a relief to hear someone like helvetica say otherwise.

It's alright. You aren't alone in that either, I also seem to share the same beliefs as you, though of course, phrased and depicted somewhat differently. I treat transgenderism as a spectrum of sorts, which allows me to discuss about the various ways in which people label themselves in a more reasonable way than final absolutes - identity can never truly be as absolute as we want it to be... There are varying degrees to which one can identify themselves. Even if someone who may have been born with the biological makeup of a male, believes truly that she is a girl, we could not be the ones to judge just what kind of girl she is... As you mention it, it is not right to assume that she was a girl born in the body of a boy, until we get that assurance, and even then, we could not know for certain if she had been, at the time, confident in her own identity. It could simply be a phase, or she could still be in the process of discovering herself. We cannot really know. As a result, it can be quite abhorrent to see people treating gender strictly as some sort of binary - it turns out being a false dichotomy, at least, under my paradigm of thought it is.

What complicates matters is the fact that even biologically speaking, it is not strictly limited to the male and the female. That's another reason why this is an important thing to discuss and talk about.

I have my own personal gripes (simply because I feel people aren't taking my opinion seriously enough even though I like to believe my opinions have just as much weight as some other posters here do) but fortunately they are irrelevant to the matter at hand. This isn't the first time gender and sex has been discussed on the forum, after all.






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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2013, 10:29:50 AM »
Just wanted to pop in to say that this is probably the most respectful and informed discussion on gender that I've seen on the internet in a long time. Seriously. At first I thought it was curious that this demographic here - mostly high school through university aged - would show more courtesy, reflection and thoughtfulness in this discussion than what I've seen when supposed adults (and by that I mean 30+) take part. But when you think about it, it makes sense: I can attest that my generation didn't come to recognize gay rights, for example, until like, the 80s, let alone such concepts as being genderqueer and trans. The generation currently in college have been hearing this discussion from an early age.

This isn't to say, of course, that the 30+ crowd are a bunch of bigots who are beyond hope, but it does underline the importance of teaching tolerance from an early age in order to ensure that we evolve socially as a species.

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2013, 12:13:18 PM »
Awww helvie if I accidentally called you male IRL I would feel super bad about it afterwards and want to hug you.

Please don't be too down on yourself if it happens :(
We're all supportive of you here

(actually I still want to hug you regardless)
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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2013, 05:26:59 PM »
I wrote this article not to complain about my treatment, but to put stories and a personal face to what I think is potentially a little known issue. For a lot of people this was potentially their first convention, and I would like for it to not be their last. As a veteran conventioneer, these are my observations and my experiences in dealing with being transgendered in both this fandom and with convention going in general.

Conventions are a safe zone for a lot of personal expression, and have been getting progressively better in my eyes. The very first time I cosplayed I was called freak and faggot at Otakon 2007, I lasted maybe 2-3 hours in my cosplay before I felt like everyone was staring at me and I had to get out of it. Outside of the joke cosplays of the Sailor Bubbas and Cardcaptor Wills, male-bodied persons cosplaying female characters were heavily looked down upon. Unless they really passed, they faced ridicule and derision. Now the worst thing that happens to me is I get called "him" or "he" or "sir". In this fandom especially, nobody looks down on someone for having a male body and cosplaying a female character. Hell, it's pretty much celebrated at this point. But while things are really open and chill, I feel as if we can go a step further to help people of all genders and shapes and sizes fit in and feel more comfortable.

Getting misgendered is still a serious problem. I may not be facing threats of violence or openly disparaged because of my choice of appearance, but it still really hurts to be misgendered, especially when I am trying as hard as I can to present as female. Just because I'm currently stuck with a male body does not mean I wish to be referred as such, even if I wouldn't be looked down upon anymore for cosplaying and presenting female. The same thing applies to any other person. Just because most people's gender happen to align with their bodies, doesn't mean it would for everyone. And not everyone has the opportunity to express themselves in a way that they'd get read in their proper gender, or perhaps they don't want to or feel comfortable enough to at that time.

Only properly gendering someone if they meet someone's standards of that particular gender is pretty narrow minded. In a fandom with many cisgendered males cosplaying female characters due to well, an overabundance of female characters, it is even more important to look past the physical and let the individual have their gender identity. Denying it or assuming it based on their physical appearance, their personality, or their likes and dislikes, is very harmful psychologically, and outside of conventions and in real life, potentially hazardous. And this isn't just for persons of trans* or other gender variance. Cisgendered people too are affected by this. Just because one's identity aligns with their body doesn't mean they act in a manner that society considers appropriate for their gender. To be misgendered, or worse, ridiculed for not acting your gender, can be just as harmful to them as it is to trans* and genderqueer persons. Now there are some people who do take pride in being mistaken for another gender, but let them decide that for themselves.

I'm fortunate that I can pass for the most part in the real world, and that cons seem to be my only significant roadblock. But when I get misgendered it is a painful reminder I am stuck in a body I am at odds with. For others it may be a painful reminder that they may not come off as girly or guyish enough to be considered their gender, or that they end up feeling pressured to do things in order to "pass" that they otherwise wouldn't want to. And for others it may be a reminder that only a small subset of their traits get recognized, or they get put into a box they are not comfortable being in. This is why I'm championing proper etiquette when addressing other people in this fandom so that we can make things more comfortable for those who may not have the luxury of being read in their proper gender. I feel as if it's a tiny burden to carry to make things significantly more welcoming to those who may not be as confident in their gender identity and correcting others as I am, or may not have the ability to express it or assert it publicly. It would also make things significantly more welcoming to those whom the binary tries to erase by forcing roles and behaviors on people based on the identity they take.

I came into Touhou because it gave me an outlet to express myself in ways I could not express myself in real life. I stayed in Touhou after I came out because most people have been very welcoming and supportive. I want to continue being a part of Touhou by taking my experiences and sharing them with others so that others can feel just as welcomed as I did those many moons ago. Overall my experience has been overwhelmingly positive, and it's this support that keeps me going here and keeps me rooted and doing my part to serve the fandom despite the negative things that do happen.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 05:56:18 PM by helvetica »


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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2013, 07:07:59 PM »
Oh I totally agree. If I were at a con or some other event, the last thing I would want to do would be to ruin someone else's time. Not only would they feel awful about it, I would feel awful about it the moment I heard I did it.

I'm glad I at least know this issue exists, even if I tend to fumble around with it a lot (just ask Shadoweh)
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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #47 on: October 04, 2013, 09:43:54 PM »
The real problem here is that your right to self-identification or self-expression ends where the next person's freedom of speech begins. The government has to decide if your right to expression trumps their religion, or vice-versa. Whatever they decide now can always be changed later, so neither is a guarantee. You can't force someone to acknowledge you as what you wish to be when they don't accept it, and you can't force them to accept it either. You might be able to pass laws that force them to keep their opinions to themselves or otherwise prevent them from expressing themselves in speech but they will always be there, they will always resent you, and they will turn against you and take their revenge at the first opportunity.  Forcing the population at large to use the words you want to describe you is largely doomed to failure.

The only real solution is to stop interpreting being misgendered as some kind of hateful denial of your gender and just think "they're wrong" instead. This goes for racial slurs too. Just stop caring when people do it. Stop giving these words their power to harm you. Stop arming your enemies.

I am what I am and I know it. Nothing that any of you says to me is going to change it.

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2013, 01:55:34 AM »
I already addressed this on IRC but I figured this would be a useful message to put here as well.

This isn't about trying to change the mind of the assholes. They'll find any reason to be an asshole. This is about bringing awareness of the issue to the good people in the community and at large, who really don't want to hurt other people but may not even be aware they are. I really don't think most of the people who misgender or otherwise are doing it intentionally to harm me or other transpersons. It's simply a lack of knowledge of the issue. A cisgendered person rarely if ever has to worry about their identity being questioned. They may get ridiculed for not being "manly" or "girly" enough, but this isn't even close to the same level.

Speaking for myself, I do not care if what I do is considered masculine or feminine, that isn't my problem. I am perfectly happy with being a tomboy, this is something I'm proud of. But that's the key, I'm still a girl. Calling me a boy makes me acutely aware of all the things that make me feel masculine, all the faults in my body I can't fix or ever fix, all the behaviors I've picked up being forced to act like a boy in order to survive I'm still undoing. This is what happens when you misgender me, and I cannot control this. This is a trigger. Am I aware I need to stop it from controlling me as much? Sure, but that's easy to say when it's someone else it's happening to. When I'm forced to identify as a boy or if I feel masculine, I have no self confidence in myself, no self worth. When I feel like I'm a girl then I can shrug off easier the people who try to tell me I'm not. The more I feel like I present the less I care when people try to ridicule me for not acting girly or masculine. Crazy as it sounds, I started giving far less of a crap about what people thought of me once I was able to present myself in the manner I wanted to. I became more proud of the "masculine" things I do the girlier I was able to present myself and feel.

The purpose of all of this is to provide a safe zone, to help people who are gender variant or might be questioning themselves and their identity. By providing a safe zone you're providing an environment where they can develop their sense of self worth. My self confidence did not come overnight, and telling someone to sink or swim and just do it is a recipe for disaster. They have to build up a cache of self worth and confidence before they're ready to handle the slings and arrows of the real world. The safe zone this community gave me lead me into finally exploring and discovering my identity and presenting it online. The safe zone I was given at AUSA 2011 when I hung out in person and was treated as a girl lead to me to gain the confidence to present female at conventions and the confidence and support I got from there led to finally transitioning into full-time the person I am.

Would you believe I had set myself a timetable for finally presenting as female, and I beat it by like almost half a year? I wasn't intending on presenting female at a con until Animazement this year, in May. I was planning on making that my first female con since I knew very few people from this side of the universe would be going, and then making Otakon the first con I hung out with Shrinemaidens as a girl. But on a whim I went to Ohayocon this year presenting female, and that went so well I made Katsucon the first con I spent entirely in girl mode, and that was with other Shrinemaidens present. Compare that to my very first time presenting female in public, Otakon 2007, and getting called fag and freak and then shutting that away for another 5 years. It takes time and familiarity to get over that initial hump. I used to be so scared presenting as female, thinking everyone was watching me. Once I realized most people didn't care, and were actually supportive, I stopped dreading it and fearing it.

Now I hardly have about fears about presenting, it's just the misgendering that drags me back that I don't present as well as I wish to, as well as I'd like to. It may not stop me from asserting myself as female now, but I know that it stopped me a long time ago, and for people who aren't quite at my stage yet it's devastating. It's that feeling that drives people to do things they may not want to do, to do risky harmful things that may jeopardize their health both mentally and physically. Thankfully because I have all the self confidence and worth built up from all the successes I've had in the past, it doesn't hurt me as much, but I know it took me a long time to get there. There was a time I was forcing myself to give up aspects I really didn't want to in a desperate bid to appear more feminine. I don't do that anymore, but again, that took time and building self confidence. Before I used to think I was "becoming" a nice and kind person, a person people wanted to be around. It took me a long time to realize I already was one, I was just shedding the baggage weighing me down and making me think I wasn't.

This is what making a safe zone does. It builds confidence and self worth. It helps people who may be questioning to figure out where they stand. It helps people who may already know who they are but are afraid nobody will accept them. I knew I was a girl since I could walk, but I never felt like anyone would accept me for one until I got into this community and found wonderful people who did. Do I expect everyone to? No, but enough people do, and the people who do accept me are the ones that really matter in the long run. But it takes time to build that confidence, those friends, that support network. Would I have eventually transitioned without any support? Probably, if I didn't kill myself or die from stress and other things. But I would have been a bitter person, hating and cursing the world. I'd definitely be in a lot worse shape mentally and physically as well. I wouldn't have any friends, any family as I would have ran them off a long time ago with my anger and my malcontent. I forced myself to act and present male in a desperate bid to get friends, as I was more afraid of being lonely than being able to be myself. Eventually though something would have given and I would have driven off everyone with how bitter and depressed I was.

That's what is the key here, to fight off the assholes and the malevolent, you need to surround yourself with good people. Knowing you have people behind you, supporting you, willing to fight for you, that blunts the blows from the hateful. Being able to drown out the noises of the bigots with words of support from good people. Knowing I have people willing to stand up for me is what makes it possible for me to fight off those who wish to bring me down. And I want to be that same voice to others, I want others to know they have people here that will have their back and support them and who they are as a person, no matter what that is. And I'm sure a lot of people here wish to as well, they just need to know how they can help.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 02:15:36 AM by helvetica »


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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2013, 06:54:23 AM »
I think I've solved my confusion. Let's see...
You're conflating gender roles and gender identity.
Yes, it seems I've been doing that. To put it as simply as I can, what bothers me is that people say gender is a social construct, which is fine, but then a moment later talk about their gender not matching their sex. My response to that then is to wonder how, if gender is a social construct and not actually bound to sex in any way, someone's gender could not "match" their sex. That notion seems to contradict the premise that gender is independent from sex, since you'd think then that no gender matches any sex. I guess now that what's really being said is that gender roles are a construct and gender identity is a real issue. I think that's the main source of my confusion here. So like, this thing you said:
Gender is a social construct, there is no significant wiring or predetermined behavior between different genders.
Is it that the first time you say gender, you mean gender roles, and the second time, you mean gender identities (or rather, people who identify as different genders)?

In any case I think I understand much better now. Thank you very much for all the detailed responses. This topic is fascinating to me, and your comments in this thread and others have been tremendously helpful.

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2013, 07:25:07 AM »
I think I've solved my confusion. Let's see...Yes, it seems I've been doing that. To put it as simply as I can, what bothers me is that people say gender is a social construct, which is fine, but then a moment later talk about their gender not matching their sex. My response to that then is to wonder how, if gender is a social construct and not actually bound to sex in any way, someone's gender could not "match" their sex. That notion seems to contradict the premise that gender is independent from sex, since you'd think then that no gender matches any sex. I guess now that what's really being said is that gender roles are a construct and gender identity is a real issue. I think that's the main source of my confusion here.

You have been reading a bit much into things. Social constructs are often created and crafted based on observations made in - whoop-dee-doo, society itself, based on very tangible things - such as the physical make-up of the human being, which directly ties into the sex of the human being. No one has stated in this thread that gender was entirely and wholesomely independent and detached from the sex. Gender identity as a whole rests on the fact that the individual has the power to decide how he or she wishes to present themselves out in general public - that choice is the social construct in and of itself, and when that choice directly contradicts the physical sex of the person, that's when we can say someone's gender doesn't "match" their sex. There are many people who believe they are females born in a male body and vice-versa. Such people definitely exist and I think it's the least we could do but to respect their choice.

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2013, 05:36:17 PM »
Gender identity is a part of what makes a person that specific person, and contributes much to the personality and outlook. The fact that personality types fall into extremely diverse categories, albeit for the most part still falling under the boy-girl dichotomy, implies that gender identity is by no means the single defining aspect of a person. But for some people, it may be a very huge part of who they are, and they strive to present themselves solely based on that. For others, not so much. Now, problems arise when someone underestimates the amount of care and attention a certain person puts into their gender identity. For those who fall into the spectrum of gender variants, the amount of care they put in considering and mulling over their identities seems hard to comprehend - almost foreign - to the common cisgendered folk, and striving to fully understand their situations is an undertaking that many of them would likely deem as stressful or confusing.

It seems to me like the question of sensitivity to others' perceptions is an Achilles' Heel to those who are prone to being misidentified. It's a weakness that may not seem apparent in the surface at first, but devastating to those who have it. While Achilles' weakness lies in the heel, of all places, the gender-sensitive human being's weakness just has to lie in their gender identity. There are two ways to fix this. One is, as commonly agreed upon here, to attempt to disarm the rest of the world by bringing the sufferings of the mis-identified to their attention, and placing your emotional well-being entirely at the discretion of others. The other solution is to put extra armor over the Achilles' heel to adapt better to the battlefield known as the "real world." That's not to say that these solutions are mutually exclusive - they both can be striven for at the same time. I'm just trying to highlight the other viewpoint over here, which is why I'm in complete agreement with Suzuran:

The real problem here is that your right to self-identification or self-expression ends where the next person's freedom of speech begins. The government has to decide if your right to expression trumps their religion, or vice-versa. Whatever they decide now can always be changed later, so neither is a guarantee. You can't force someone to acknowledge you as what you wish to be when they don't accept it, and you can't force them to accept it either. You might be able to pass laws that force them to keep their opinions to themselves or otherwise prevent them from expressing themselves in speech but they will always be there, they will always resent you, and they will turn against you and take their revenge at the first opportunity.  Forcing the population at large to use the words you want to describe you is largely doomed to failure.

The only real solution is to stop interpreting being misgendered as some kind of hateful denial of your gender and just think "they're wrong" instead. This goes for racial slurs too. Just stop caring when people do it. Stop giving these words their power to harm you. Stop arming your enemies.

I am what I am and I know it. Nothing that any of you says to me is going to change it.

One major goal that we should strive for is to have the question "Why are you so much like a boy?", when asked to a transgendered girl, carry the same amount of emotional baggage as the question "Why do you walk funny?" or "Why are you always so pessimistic?"

Now to respond to another quote -

Ascribing character traits to gender is completely unscientific and should never be taken seriously. It says more about the describer than anything else. There's nothing "objective" about it.

http://www.ehow.com/info_8001121_difference-male-female-writing-styles.html
http://www.ehow.com/list_7518558_speech-differences-between-man-woman.html

I agree that your viewpoint is noble and appealing, but observations are for the most part objective. You may argue that these differences are a result of the annoying social prescriptions that force the distinguishing between men and women, but this is the reality of today's world. Differences exist, and instead of fighting against them, (unless you particularly enjoy a "me-versus-the-world" scenario), I think these differences should be accepted, examined, and maybe even celebrated instead.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 05:39:25 PM by lonemaestro »

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2013, 05:50:47 PM »
http://www.ehow.com/info_8001121_difference-male-female-writing-styles.html
http://www.ehow.com/list_7518558_speech-differences-between-man-woman.html

I agree that your viewpoint is noble and appealing, but observations are for the most part objective. You may argue that these differences are a result of the annoying social prescriptions that force the distinguishing between men and women, but this is the reality of today's world. Differences exist, and instead of fighting against them, (unless you particularly enjoy a "me-versus-the-world" scenario), I think these differences should be accepted, examined, and maybe even celebrated instead.

I have a hard time believing this is a good-faith argument if you're going to make assumptions about my motivations. Neither of your e-how links point to anything intrinsically, biologically "male" or "female" when it comes to personality traits. Science has pretty much established that the character traits of "male" and "female" are socially, not biologically, defined and learned. Traits considered masculine in our immediate socio-cultural context are considered feminine in others, and vice versa. In other words, I don't need to "fight against" anything when it comes to this subject.

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2013, 08:50:17 PM »
One major goal that we should strive for is to have the question "Why are you so much like a boy?", when asked to a transgendered girl, carry the same amount of emotional baggage as the question "Why do you walk funny?" or "Why are you always so pessimistic?"

Well, what if the question is warranted? Gender is not binary. Or even integer. This is mostly why the idea of a "wrong" gender is stupid. I was born male. I am green-deficient colorblind and nearsighted. I like airplanes and complex machinery. I wear cutesy frilly dresses. I collect stuffed animals and dolls. I negatively identify with male stereotypes. I wish I still had a high-pitched voice. I suck at arts and crafts. I play violent video games. I program computers. I keep cats. I wear long hair and wish it were longer. I am a sucker for cute animals. I can't cook or clean. I am lazy and undisciplined. I am jealous of small children and wish to emulate or become one. I love wearing things that make noise. Which gender am I? Why should I chose one stereotype to the exclusion of another? The ideas of binary gender and exclusively gender-based stereotypes are stupid and broken. People are who and what they are. People who are sufficiently capable and motivated are very close to their ideal self. Some people are the exact opposite. Such is people. No two are exactly alike. Saying "all trans girls have X behavior" is just as wrong and broken as saying "all black people steal televisions". Saying someone is closer to the "wrong" gender than that which they wish is an observation of outwardly displayed features, not an accusation of crime.

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2013, 09:27:25 PM »
To put it as simply as I can, what bothers me is that people say gender is a social construct, which is fine, but then a moment later talk about their gender not matching their sex. My response to that then is to wonder how, if gender is a social construct and not actually bound to sex in any way, someone's gender could not "match" their sex. That notion seems to contradict the premise that gender is independent from sex, since you'd think then that no gender matches any sex. I guess now that what's really being said is that gender roles are a construct and gender identity is a real issue. I think that's the main source of my confusion here. So like, this thing you said:Is it that the first time you say gender, you mean gender roles, and the second time, you mean gender identities (or rather, people who identify as different genders)?
As Trance said, there's a slight bit of overreading. While gender roles are a social construct, gender itself isn't purely though. It is an external presentation of an intrinsic facet of identity. It's society attaching traits and expected behaviors and roles to physical features that cause a lot of the issues. Race and culture are social constructs in the same manner; society pinning specific behaviors and roles on physical attributes of skin color or ancestry.

I've identified internally as female my entire life. As a kid I always identified with the girls in the neighborhood or in school and stuff. I wanted to do girly things because well, I was told a girl should like these things and I knew I was a girl. I liked dolls and playing dressup and stuff like that because girls liked it. For the longest time I wanted to be a housewife and a mother and stuff, and I kind of felt ashamed for liking things like sports and video games because girls weren't supposed to. Even though I had a fascination with science and engineering, I hated working on cars because it got me dirty and being dirty was not feminine. This is gender the social construct in action. Had I grown up in an environment where playing with monster trucks and playing in mud was considered feminine, I probably would have liked it more. But because I identified as female, and society told me females are supposed to look and act this way, my likes and dislikes kind of were tailored to that. Nowadays I don't care as much, if at all, if what I do is considered feminine or masculine.

That doesn't take away that I still want to be identified female, it just means I recognize that society has programmed me to try to think and act a certain way. I love ballet and working on cars and playing video games and wearing makeup and dressing up pretty. I definitely still have a maternal streak and I enjoy domestic chores, but I'd rather be a scientist than a housewife. None of these things make me a girl or a boy though, identifying as one makes me a girl. I know lots of boys who are far more feminine than I will ever be, and girls who outbro me. Again, acting feminine or masculine does not determine one's internal gender identity, they do. It's just unfortunate that society still likes to think that by identifying as a certain gender they're forced to act certain ways or like certain things.

Sex, the physical features you wish to have, that is also completely internal. Your mind has its own map of what it thinks the body should be. My mind is 110% convinced I'm supposed to have a female body. Before my sister was born, while I identified as female I didn't quite understand or have a realization I thought I was a girl. When my sister was born, I suddenly had a very physical awareness that my body was wrong. This was the first time I experienced dysphoria. When puberty hit and my body started growing male the dysphoria got much stronger. Gender dysphoria is a very specific set of psychological symptoms, it isn't just typical depression and body esteem issues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria

When I feel very masculine, and my body looks masculine to me, I feel dysphoric. I do not feel attached to reality, I lose control of my emotions, and I feel very empty. I literally feel like a stranger in my own skin. And I had actual triggers, being naked or being aroused sexually was an immediately fuck you to the gut and I would get physically ill. Looking female in the mirror has gone a long way towards reducing a lot of my dysphoric feelings. Now it's not a total solution, as I still do have a physical trigger from the bits between my legs that remind me I'm still in a male body, hence why I have gone further with my transition into hormones and will eventually have bottom (and probably top) surgery. Just being able to look female wasn't enough, I was still discontent and it wasn't until I started taking hormones did most of my depression and dysphoria and anxiety go away. It was like a light bulb switched on, my mind was craving hormones it wasn't getting, and worse, getting hormones that was shoving my body towards a destination it did not want.

Not everyone has to or necessarily wants to fully transition though, sometimes just being able to express themselves occasionally is enough. Not everyone feels as strongly as I did, sometimes it's just a general feeling of discontent and dissatisfaction in their physical appearance. Some people go through life without actually knowing why they feel down all the time, this is why awareness and letting people have safe zones to explore these things is a huge deal. Sometimes the solution to dysphoria is simply to be able to present as female sometimes. Some people have no problems with what bits they have, but the bits don't give the right hormones their mind wants. You'd be surprised the number of transgirls who are proud of having a penis, but because society tells them girls have vaginas and guys have dicks they feel pressured to get bottom surgery. I still want bottom surgery, but that's my decision, I do not feel compelled to in order to feel like a girl. And sometimes the dysphoria doesn't come from their body at all, but comes from society denying them their identity because of their body. Some transpersons absolutely love their body, and do not mind it at all, but feel pressured to present in their chosen gender to be respected as such. There's still a big chunk of "traditional" (ie. backwards) psychology that think transgenderism is strictly girl born in guy body and visa versa. Not everyone feels they got the wrong body, they just feel society is giving them the shaft and forcing them to look and act a certain way. This is where the gender binary sucks. Some transpersons feel compelled to transition in order to present better in their target gender when they have no desire to.

Now personally for me, I will say, I imagine a lot of my physical triggers for my dysphoria were learned rather than innate. I grew up in a Catholic household, and as such I was raised that sexual feelings were bad and that I shouldn't be aroused by things or I'm having impure thoughts. Now imagine a 8 year old girl, stuck with male parts, wearing girls clothing because she knows she's a girl, but then feeling aroused by it by her male parts, parts she already didn't want. It really fucked with me. I wasn't wearing girls clothing to get a sexual thrill out of it, it was purely to try to feel pretty and some semblance of normal. I couldn't control it though, which was extremely distressing and only compounded on my dysphoria. I will say this is probably the root of my desire to get bottom surgery, and had I been raised that girls can have penises too (and that it's not bad to be sexually aroused, another issue entirely), I probably wouldn't have cared as much. My sexuality for the time being is completely repressed by my repulsion to the fact I have the wrong parts. Which is funny because once again, it is a purely social construct that penises are considered male and vaginas female. Outside of child reproduction they have absolutely nothing to do with your identity or personality.

That being said, some people do hit puberty and their body is like OMG I WANT TO STAB THINGS WITH MY DICK... wait I don't have one?! and visa versa. I may have these feelings as well, but I can't say for sure because again, I've repressed my sexuality for so long I've not given myself any chance to explore. I can safely say though I do not get any pleasure when aroused, so it's likely my mind is operating on the same principle, but since ~*catholicism*~ I never felt comfortable exploring it outside of desperation to figure out how broken I was.

Gender identity is a part of what makes a person that specific person, and contributes much to the personality and outlook. The fact that personality types fall into extremely diverse categories, albeit for the most part still falling under the boy-girl dichotomy, implies that gender identity is by no means the single defining aspect of a person. But for some people, it may be a very huge part of who they are, and they strive to present themselves solely based on that. For others, not so much.
My gender doesn't define me, I am who I am. That doesn't change the fact I am a girl, and wish to be treated as such in society. It is just another facet in the whole amalgamation that makes me, me. The problem is cisgendered people don't think of it as a big deal because to them it isn't. It's not that gender isn't just as much of a core identity as it is to trans people, it's that they've never had it challenged. Society is strictly catered to them as being the majority. Society does not question them, because outside of rather insignificant things they've never had to question themselves and prove to society they are who they are. They are by default assumed properly. Think of how insulting it is to get called girly as a guy, and then realize that to transpersons they live with that every day. Transpersons are challenged on a daily basis the very core of their being, along with all the traits and manifestations that come with it. This is a similar problem faced by minority children. They are raised in a world where being white is the standard and tippy top, so when they look in the mirror and see a different colored skin they start associating traits of inferiority to themselves, and their identity is summarily challenged. This is why people take huge pride in being black or female or trans or gay or what have you, because society assumes that if one is  not part of the majority, they have to stand out some way or be ignored. The majority is considered default and "normal", and everything else deviant, when in reality nobody is "normal" and everyone's a shade of different.

Quote
Now, problems arise when someone underestimates the amount of care and attention a certain person puts into their gender identity. For those who fall into the spectrum of gender variants, the amount of care they put in considering and mulling over their identities seems hard to comprehend - almost foreign - to the common cisgendered folk, and striving to fully understand their situations is an undertaking that many of them would likely deem as stressful or confusing.
And this is where privilege comes in. Just because the majority doesn't face the issue doesn't make it less important, nor solely the minority's responsibility to bring it up. This is the height of arrogance and insensitivity to think that just because it doesn't happen to them then it shouldn't be important. As a majority it is their responsibility to be aware and perceptive of minority issues, and to help adjust their behavior to be more accommodating. Society already accommodates the majority automatically, so why is it the minority's responsibility to build their own accommodations? Just because something is more common doesn't make it superior or more "correct" than others. Just because cisgendered folk tend to be the majority of humans born doesn't make cisgenderism the right thing and transgenderism some sort of deviancy. People aren't statistics, being "normal" in the mathematic sense is not "natural" in the sociological sense. It just tends to be that way because it's the majority voice and majority experience that gets recognized in society.

As a majority in society it is their responsibility to make sure minorities do not get ignored or stamped out. We don't even know how many people are truly transgender or intersexed or what have you because of efforts in society to stamp out dissent and silence minority voices. Society may think these things are rare but in reality it may really not be.

Quote
It seems to me like the question of sensitivity to others' perceptions is an Achilles' Heel to those who are prone to being misidentified. It's a weakness that may not seem apparent in the surface at first, but devastating to those who have it. While Achilles' weakness lies in the heel, of all places, the gender-sensitive human being's weakness just has to lie in their gender identity. There are two ways to fix this. One is, as commonly agreed upon here, to attempt to disarm the rest of the world by bringing the sufferings of the mis-identified to their attention, and placing your emotional well-being entirely at the discretion of others. The other solution is to put extra armor over the Achilles' heel to adapt better to the battlefield known as the "real world." That's not to say that these solutions are mutually exclusive - they both can be striven for at the same time. I'm just trying to highlight the other viewpoint over here, which is why I'm in complete agreement with Suzuran:

One major goal that we should strive for is to have the question "Why are you so much like a boy?", when asked to a transgendered girl, carry the same amount of emotional baggage as the question "Why do you walk funny?" or "Why are you always so pessimistic?"
I'm sorry, but my gender identity is not a weakness, and to perceive it as such is insulting. Just because I do not fit the majority narrative does not make my identity "emotional baggage". I am just as natural and "normal" as any cis-born individual. I am merely a different variation on the human spectrum. To act as if it's my responsibility to "toughen up" because I'm not the majority voice is frankly the height of arrogance and privilege. Cisgendered individuals are no more "correctly human" than I am. I am not a deviancy, I am merely a variation. And to act as if it's my responsibility to stick up for myself, rather than cisgendered individuals to be more accommodating for me, is extremely bigoted. It is pure luck one is born into a sociological majority, and to lord that privilege over others who weren't "as fortunate" is wrong, period.

It's society that's told me being a girl is shameful. It's society that's told me being trans is shameful. It is not an Achilles Heel, it is society being bigoted dumbfucks thinking straight white cismales are the pinnacle of human development. My shame is purely external. It's not my job to toughen up because society is a bunch of bigoted ignoramuses, it's society's job to stop being assholes and learn that people are different.

Quote
Now to respond to another quote -

http://www.ehow.com/info_8001121_difference-male-female-writing-styles.html
http://www.ehow.com/list_7518558_speech-differences-between-man-woman.html

I agree that your viewpoint is noble and appealing, but observations are for the most part objective. You may argue that these differences are a result of the annoying social prescriptions that force the distinguishing between men and women, but this is the reality of today's world. Differences exist, and instead of fighting against them, (unless you particularly enjoy a "me-versus-the-world" scenario), I think these differences should be accepted, examined, and maybe even celebrated instead.
You're missing a key point though, that this is a self reinforcing loop. How many female writers over the years have had to write under pen names or other pseudonyms because society just assumed female writers were inferior? Joanne Rowling, aka JK Rowling, had to publish Harry Potter under her initials because the publishers told her a woman would never sell well because they would see her writing intrinsically as inferior. There are lots of male romance writers who write under female pen names because guys aren't supposed to write mushy love crap. It is purely society telling you there is a difference between make and female voices, not that there actually quantifiably is one.

I had this argument about video games and science. Society telling women they can't be programmers and engineers and scientists is why there is a male majority, not because there's an actual gender specific variance between math and science skills. That is purely pushed by society, just like black people are told they are dumber and prone to anger. Gender, race, culture, none of these have any relation on someone's likes or dislikes or talents or behaviors. Stereotypes hurt, and are self reinforcing in a lot of ways.

Well, what if the question is warranted? Gender is not binary. Or even integer. This is mostly why the idea of a "wrong" gender is stupid. I was born male. I am green-deficient colorblind and nearsighted. I like airplanes and complex machinery. I wear cutesy frilly dresses. I collect stuffed animals and dolls. I negatively identify with male stereotypes. I wish I still had a high-pitched voice. I suck at arts and crafts. I play violent video games. I program computers. I keep cats. I wear long hair and wish it were longer. I am a sucker for cute animals. I can't cook or clean. I am lazy and undisciplined. I am jealous of small children and wish to emulate or become one. I love wearing things that make noise. Which gender am I? Why should I chose one stereotype to the exclusion of another? The ideas of binary gender and exclusively gender-based stereotypes are stupid and broken. People are who and what they are. People who are sufficiently capable and motivated are very close to their ideal self. Some people are the exact opposite. Such is people. No two are exactly alike. Saying "all trans girls have X behavior" is just as wrong and broken as saying "all black people steal televisions". Saying someone is closer to the "wrong" gender than that which they wish is an observation of outwardly displayed features, not an accusation of crime.
Just because you do not put any importance into your gender identity or how society perceives you does not mean other people don't take pride in. It is different for everyone. Again, this is the height of arrogance to assume that if something isn't important to them, then it shouldn't be important to others. Just because the gender binary is a social construct does not take away the fact people do take identity from being considered male or female. Not everyone is this amorphous genderless blob. I am very proud I am a girl, even if I don't necessarily do the typical "feminine" thing. I feel feminine, and I act feminine, even if society tells me some of the things I do aren't feminine. And people can and do feel they're in the "wrong" gender, because society tells them they have to act certain ways because of their body parts or what they were assigned at birth. Telling people to just suck it up and/or stop caring what people call them does nobody any good. I don't want to be an amorphous genderless blob, I want to be referred to as a girl.

And if someone wants to act a certain way, or fit into gender roles, that is their perogative. As long as they don't feel compelled to by outward forces who cares? There are things I like strictly because they're viewed as feminine. There's no innate wiring that tells me I should like makeup, but I like looking girly and therefore I like makeup. I don't force myself to wear makeup because I feel like I'd be less of a girl if I did, but on the same token, I don't have a direct love of makeup, it is strictly because it is seen as feminine that I like it. And there's nothing wrong with this! As long as nobody is being coerced to do so.

Jusst because some people don't take any identity from their gender doesn't make it wrong that other people do. Society telling you you're in the wrong gender, that's wrong, but that doesn't mean that people can't internally feel they're in the wrong gender and need to correct it. It's when people are feeling compelled to do things they aren't comfortable with, that is the issue. Some people just don't care one way or the other and just go with the flow and follow gender roles, and some people do not wish to be restricted by them. As long as they're happy who cares?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 10:14:52 PM by helvetica »


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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2013, 10:29:23 PM »
Just because you do not put any importance into your gender identity
It's not that it's unimportant. It's the polar opposite. It's so important to me that I define it myself. Other people do not define it for me. I absolutely know what I am. I wish I had become so absolutely certain sooner. I could have saved myself a lot of time and trouble.

Quote
this is the height of arrogance to assume that if something isn't important to them, then it shouldn't be important to others
No, it should be important enough to you that you are equally absolutely certain in what you are, and people calling you what you are not (for whatever reason) should not be the deeply damaging and self-image-endangering event that others seem to think it is. If it's so important to you (and I have absolutely no doubt that it is), why do you allow people to take it away from you with just words? I dunno about you but if someone wants to take my Suzuran-ness away from me, they're gonna have to KILL me. Or drug me.

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I don't want to be an amorphous genderless blob, I want to be referred to as a girl.
That's fine. That's all well and good. I don't entirely disregard people. I like being complimented. I love being told I am cute or adorable. I prefer female pronouns too. I am happy when people use female pronouns for me, even moreso when I am not wearing my Suzuran clothes. I just don't get upset when someone else gets it wrong. It doesn't mean I'm not good enough, it means they are wrong.

Quote
Just because some people don't take any identity from their gender doesn't make it wrong that other people do.
A large part of my identity is my Suzuran-ness. I consider it absolutely essential to my continued existence. I can't imagine being without it. This is why alcohol and drugs (particularly psychological drugs) scare the everloving crap out of me. If anything has the chance of changing me at such a fundamental level that I abandon my Suzuran-ness, it is that.

Again, to be absolutely clear - I do not wish for you to abandon your gender or take nothing from it. I do not wish for you to "grow a thicker skin". I wish for you to become so secure in your self-image that words alone cannot harm you. I wish for you to gain a yourself that nobody can take away from you. I wish this for everyone. If everyone were capable of this, hate speech would die out as irrelevant.

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #56 on: October 05, 2013, 11:10:49 PM »
No, it should be important enough to you that you are equally absolutely certain in what you are, and people calling you what you are not (for whatever reason) should not be the deeply damaging and self-image-endangering event that others seem to think it is. If it's so important to you (and I have absolutely no doubt that it is), why do you allow people to take it away from you with just words? I dunno about you but if someone wants to take my Suzuran-ness away from me, they're gonna have to KILL me. Or drug me.
I agree that people should have the confidence to stand up for themselves but having to fight a neverending war against other people's opinions is soul-grinding. Sure, if it happens once, then it should just be something you can move on from. What about once a day? Four times a day? Every single person you talk to every day? Enough times to make you bitter and defensive every time someone asks? It shouldn't have to be a personal war to be yourself every day, this is why some people give up or kill themselves instead.

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Again, to be absolutely clear - I do not wish for you to abandon your gender or take nothing from it. I do not wish for you to "grow a thicker skin". I wish for you to become so secure in your self-image that words alone cannot harm you. I wish for you to gain a yourself that nobody can take away from you. I wish this for everyone. If everyone were capable of this, hate speech would die out as irrelevant.
There is no human on this planet that is immune to words about their self-image. I don't care how self-assured you think you are, there is someone that it would hurt you if they told you they didn't like you as a person. Maybe you can fool yourself into thinking you'll just cut them off from your life and who the fuck cares, but that kind of bitterness leads to a solitary island surrounded by burned bridges. People need each other. Mutual support is the way to fix this, not every person somehow becoming Alcatraz.


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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2013, 12:35:25 AM »
Again, to be absolutely clear - I do not wish for you to abandon your gender or take nothing from it. I do not wish for you to "grow a thicker skin". I wish for you to become so secure in your self-image that words alone cannot harm you. I wish for you to gain a yourself that nobody can take away from you. I wish this for everyone. If everyone were capable of this, hate speech would die out as irrelevant.

As noble and as well-mannered as your intentions are, people just don't work this way. Words can sometimes be far, far more harmful than any sort of physical attack. In another sense, if people were capable of grasping the basic notions of identity and respect, then hate speech would also be on the road to becoming something irrelevant. Maybe in your little world everyone else is wrong, and that's all fine and good because you don't feel any negativity from it - and sometimes that "delusion of grandeur" approach is good, because it means you manage to keep your so-called "true self" intact and since you yourself have mentioned avoiding things that even have the slight potential of tarnishing that "true self;" manage to avoid these vices. However, not everyone works this way - not everyone is like you. There are a lot of people out there who are quite sensitive. Myself included.

I can't recall the number of times people have suddenly stopped liking me because they found out I was biologically a male. As someone who thrives on attention, this ends up hurting me in the long run, regardless of how confident I might have been in my own identity. I don't think it's right at all that I should just let these people think wrongly of who I am - it's disrespectful and venomous. I'm honestly not sure what's wrong with demanding basic respect from these people. For example, I don't care if there's a bunch of people who don't want to get into a relationship with a homosexual or a transgendered person - that doesn't mean you should talk shit about them and that certainly doesn't mean you should call them alien scum - and I have seen this.

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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2013, 02:34:06 AM »
There is no human on this planet that is immune to words about their self-image. I don't care how self-assured you think you are, there is someone that it would hurt you if they told you they didn't like you as a person. Maybe you can fool yourself into thinking you'll just cut them off from your life and who the fuck cares, but that kind of bitterness leads to a solitary island surrounded by burned bridges. People need each other. Mutual support is the way to fix this, not every person somehow becoming Alcatraz.
Yeah that's more what I was getting at. You need to have some sort of a safe zone to fall back on to regroup on in order to handle the slings and arrows from the world. Thank you!
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 02:36:48 AM by helvetica »


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Re: It's a Trap! Gender Etiquette in the Fandom
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2013, 03:56:10 AM »
This is a similar problem faced by minority children. They are raised in a world where being white is the standard and tippy top, so when they look in the mirror and see a different colored skin they start associating traits of inferiority to themselves, and their identity is summarily challenged. This is why people take huge pride in being black or female or trans or gay or what have you, because society assumes that if one is  not part of the majority, they have to stand out some way or be ignored. The majority is considered default and "normal", and everything else deviant, when in reality nobody is "normal" and everyone's a shade of different.
And this is where privilege comes in. Just because the majority doesn't face the issue doesn't make it less important, nor solely the minority's responsibility to bring it up. This is the height of arrogance and insensitivity to think that just because it doesn't happen to them then it shouldn't be important. As a majority it is their responsibility to be aware and perceptive of minority issues, and to help adjust their behavior to be more accommodating. Society already accommodates the majority automatically, so why is it the minority's responsibility to build their own accommodations? Just because something is more common doesn't make it superior or more "correct" than others. Just because cisgendered folk tend to be the majority of humans born doesn't make cisgenderism the right thing and transgenderism some sort of deviancy. People aren't statistics, being "normal" in the mathematic sense is not "natural" in the sociological sense. It just tends to be that way because it's the majority voice and majority experience that gets recognized in society.

You ended your last post expecting me to attempt to forge my way through with the "debate." But in all honesty, after having read your last reply, I'm beginning to regret debating on a topic that strikes such a personal chord of yours, and you'd be surprised to learn that I'm in agreement with you for the most part since the beginning. Was I somehow implying that, just because it will be hard for a majority of the society to fully embrace the concept of diversity, that they are somehow in the right? Was I somehow implying that the "privileged" ones have no obligation to recognize the differences of a few? What actually amazes me is how you and many people's vision of the world, what it could be, and what can be done to make it better, comes off as awfully optimistic. If it helps in labeling me as a bigoted ignoramus, then by all means. If I ever were to encounter a gender variant, it's only my own assessment of my behavior and expectations that counts.

What if I say that I am of a minority? My parents emigrated from China, even to this point having trouble communicating in English. My skin, face, demeanor, and language reeks of minority, no matter how much I resent it. I've been through hell both socially and at home, in elementary, middle, high school, you name it, and am having trouble with self-image, although that's not to say that it even compares to the pain someone out there is going through. Now, whenever I find myself feeling socially neglected or belittled, I would never, repeat: NEVER blame my race. Only my own integrity and character (or lack thereof). Blaming my minority-status not only comes off as defeatist, but also unspeakably lazy. To me, personal traits seem to be something I myself am responsible for handling, and the failure to get them to reach their full potential is completely on me. Luckily, only a few things are necessary to allow us to make the most of our character, and that includes time and self-reflection.

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I'm sorry, but my gender identity is not a weakness, and to perceive it as such is insulting. Just because I do not fit the majority narrative does not make my identity "emotional baggage". I am just as natural and "normal" as any cis-born individual. I am merely a different variation on the human spectrum. To act as if it's my responsibility to "toughen up" because I'm not the majority voice is frankly the height of arrogance and privilege.

I find it interesting that you would reference yourself here, seeing that I was trying to refer to those for whom you are trying to garner understanding. What confuses me is that you seem to be arguing in two directions: one, that people with variant gender identities are fully self-sufficient and will refuse to recognize their sensitivity as a weakness. Two, that the privileged majority must strive to minimize the damage made possible by such sensitivity. This act of "toughening up" is not the gender variant's responsibility, per se, but is something I really hope they will judge as one of the best courses of action.

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You're missing a key point though, that this is a self reinforcing loop. How many female writers over the years have had to write under pen names or other pseudonyms because society just assumed female writers were inferior? Joanne Rowling, aka JK Rowling, had to publish Harry Potter under her initials because the publishers told her a woman would never sell well because they would see her writing intrinsically as inferior. There are lots of male romance writers who write under female pen names because guys aren't supposed to write mushy love crap. It is purely society telling you there is a difference between make and female voices, not that there actually quantifiably is one.

I had this argument about video games and science. Society telling women they can't be programmers and engineers and scientists is why there is a male majority, not because there's an actual gender specific variance between math and science skills. That is purely pushed by society, just like black people are told they are dumber and prone to anger. Gender, race, culture, none of these have any relation on someone's likes or dislikes or talents or behaviors. Stereotypes hurt, and are self reinforcing in a lot of ways.

As a college-aged engineering major, I can safely attest to that. Women in engineering are about as endangered as pandas in Antarctica. You can try to strip all the gender-specific social constructs to the core. But surely, you can't deny that, down to the physiological level, there are still some basic differences between the male and the female brain? And these differences are likely to show by means of the hormones produced? (You may enlighten me on the subject of the effect of hormones if you wish. I'm not too familiar with that field...)

I agree that people should have the confidence to stand up for themselves but having to fight a neverending war against other people's opinions is soul-grinding. Sure, if it happens once, then it should just be something you can move on from. What about once a day? Four times a day? Every single person you talk to every day? Enough times to make you bitter and defensive every time someone asks? It shouldn't have to be a personal war to be yourself every day, this is why some people give up or kill themselves instead.
There is no human on this planet that is immune to words about their self-image. I don't care how self-assured you think you are, there is someone that it would hurt you if they told you they didn't like you as a person. Maybe you can fool yourself into thinking you'll just cut them off from your life and who the fuck cares, but that kind of bitterness leads to a solitary island surrounded by burned bridges. People need each other. Mutual support is the way to fix this, not every person somehow becoming Alcatraz.

If, by any means, anyone ends up being on the sinking island with burned bridges, then the only thing they can do is to sit down and re-evaluate their relationship with society and realize that maybe, it's not a matter of who's in the right, or who's in the wrong. Maybe it's a simple matter of give-and-take.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 03:59:50 AM by lonemaestro »