Topic: PoFV Tournament (Bracket is up!)  (Read 9449 times)

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yorgje

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PoFV Tournament (Bracket is up!)
« on: May 27, 2013, 09:33:48 am »
Congrats to our champion, chum!
Some closing comments, and an exit survey.
    Bracket.

    Instructions
       
    • READ ALL OF THE RULES.
    • Look at the bracket here and contact your opponent via the IRC channel, #pofvgrillz on irc.rizon.net. Their web client is broken, so make sure you are using some other IRC client.
           
    • You must play three matches against your opponent (i.e. 2 winning replays, i.e. your opponent sees "Dead Parrot" 4 times). To report your result, you have three options:
             
      • The preferred option is that you upload your replays to my ftp server, in a folder whose name includes both your nick and your opponent's nick:
             
        IP address: 128.135.223.20
        username:stgrillz
        password:eldesucks
              Note that you can't upload by just going to ftp://128.135.223.20, you need to use an FTP client like FileZilla.
             
      • If you can't figure out ftp, you can just upload your replays to your favorite file sharing service (i.e. replays.gensokyo.org), and send me a private message on IRC with the link.
             
      • If you forget to save a replay, it's fine as long as both you and your opponent agree on who won. The losing player needs to send me a private message on IRC indicating who won your match.
             
         
    Finalized Rules, inspired by KB's recent tournament:
    • Double elimination
    • Rounds are best of three (two winning replays per round)
    • Seeds will be skill-based (i.e. new players vs experienced players in the first round). Geographic location will also be taken into account when matchmaking.
    • Lunatic difficulty
    • All characters are allowed.
    • Characters are not declared beforehand (counter-picking is allowed)
    • You may change characters between matches against the same player
    • Players may choose any stage (mutual agreement) or may opt to default to Cirno's
    • players may choose left/right side of screen, or if agreement cannot be reached:
      • Player on top of bracket may opt for left or right side for first two matches
      • Player on bottom of bracket may opt for left or right side for third match
    • Do not pause, quit, or alt-tab once a match is underway.
      • if you made an incorrect character/stage selection, you may quit but only immediately at the start of the first match
    • You are expected to play at least one round per day, starting on Sunday, June 9 (unless you have a bye). You are allowed to be a day late, but please try to catch up as soon as you can. Coordinate your matches through the irc.

    Also, some links, again courtesy of KB:
    Pastebin with info. Dead adonis link though.
    adonis1
    adonis2.
    vpatch
    hamachi

    It's also worth noting that you'll need to copy/rename your game exe files if you want to have each adonis open the English-patched version of PoFV.  Rename th09.exe (Japanese) to something else (like th09j.exe), and copy th09e.exe (English) to th09.exe.  The reason for this is that adonise.exe opens th09e.exe and adonis2.exe opens th09.exe.
    [/list]
    « Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 10:57:44 pm by yorgje »
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    yorgje

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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #1 on: May 27, 2013, 09:38:14 am »
    Okay, so regarding difficulties:
    The main advantage of forcing everyone to play Lunatic is that the matches will all be standardized, so in a sense the rankings feel more legitimate.
    On the other hand, I want to make this tournament friendly to people of all skill levels, not just PoFV specializers, and I'm worried that on Lunatic difficulty, new players will be dying more to the game than to each other.
    Well, on the other other hand, if you are new and can't chain well, you probably won't be sending much to your opponent's side, so, it might be fine to leave it on Lunatic only.
    Your input would be appreciated!
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    Nindella

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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #2 on: May 27, 2013, 09:38:36 pm »
    Be sure to join!

    It'll be lots of fun!

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    SeasideCharizard

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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #3 on: May 27, 2013, 10:17:15 pm »
    Okay, so regarding difficulties:
    The main advantage of forcing everyone to play Lunatic is that the matches will all be standardized, so in a sense the rankings feel more legitimate.
    On the other hand, I want to make this tournament friendly to people of all skill levels, not just PoFV specializers, and I'm worried that on Lunatic difficulty, new players will be dying more to the game than to each other.
    Well, on the other other hand, if you are new and can't chain well, you probably won't be sending much to your opponent's side, so, it might be fine to leave it on Lunatic only.
    Your input would be appreciated!

    With a tournament for all skill levels, I'd say set it to Hard.
    It's enough that it's not a big round of yukkuri for more skilled players where Normal has this habit of getting boring very fast, but on Lunatic the art of chaining for Level 2 against an undodgeable wall of bullets is a lot harder than some people make it out to be, especially when you're a Normal player on other Touhou games.

    I'll join, though I've never played PoFV in netplay.
    Watch as I die from 5 frames of input lag! :derp:

    Tao-Sensei

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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #4 on: May 27, 2013, 10:20:17 pm »
    I want to join, but I'm not sure.

    Hmm, gimme some time to think, and you may or may not have another combatant.

    yorgje

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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #5 on: May 27, 2013, 10:34:05 pm »
    With a tournament for all skill levels, I'd say set it to Hard.
    This sounds like sound reasoning. I'll wait for a few more responses before making an ultimatum.

    I'll join, though I've never played PoFV in netplay.
    Watch as I die from 5 frames of input lag! :derp:
    Nice to have you on board! Netplay is a lot of fun once you get used to the lag.
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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #6 on: May 27, 2013, 10:46:00 pm »
    I would recommend leaving it at lunatic because the difference is honestly fairly negligible. It's a big deal against the AI, yes, but not against humans. I'm pretty sure the only difference is that spell levels start at 8 instead of 4 (or 1 on normal/easy), so in effect it's just moving the game ahead about half a minute.

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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #7 on: May 28, 2013, 01:32:06 am »
    Yes leave it at Lunatic. The lower the difficulty, the more the game tends toward endlessness.

    Validon98

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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #8 on: May 28, 2013, 01:49:26 am »
    Not sure if I'll join, considering the lack of experience I have with netplay (and the fact that I don't know anything about PoFV strategy or chaining or anything like that), but I'll probably give it a go.
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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #9 on: May 28, 2013, 02:05:51 am »
    I signed up. I'm not very good at this game but I've done a bunch of Normal 1ccs (if barely) and I play Touhou so much that I think playing against humans would be fun. :)

    yorgje

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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #10 on: May 28, 2013, 07:23:37 am »
    I would recommend leaving it at lunatic because the difference is honestly fairly negligible. It's a big deal against the AI, yes, but not against humans. I'm pretty sure the only difference is that spell levels start at 8 instead of 4 (or 1 on normal/easy), so in effect it's just moving the game ahead about half a minute.
    Thanks.  I actually didn't know what the difference was except that spells seemed to be somewhat stronger on Lunatic than on Normal (I've n-never played hard...).

    Not sure if I'll join, considering the lack of experience I have with netplay (and the fact that I don't know anything about PoFV strategy or chaining or anything like that), but I'll probably give it a go.
    I signed up. I'm not very good at this game but I've done a bunch of Normal 1ccs (if barely) and I play Touhou so much that I think playing against humans would be fun. :)
    I'd highly recommend practicing netplay a bit to get used to the lag, which can be quite noticeable depending on how far away you are from your opponent. If you're looking for matches, join the #pofvgrillz channel on the Rizon IRC network. This channel is also where I plan to have matches coordinated during the actual tournament, so getting there now can't hurt.

    Regarding strategy, I'm not a pro, but at an amateurish level of play, this is what I would consider important:
    • Chaining: this raises your spell points (upper corner). At certain values (100k, 300k, 500k),  you automatically send a level 4 spell to your opponent's side. It's okay if you're bad at chaining, because if you hit 100k right after your opponent does, your level 4 will cancel theirs, which is a good thing. Just be aware of what it does. If you hit 500k spell points, you might want to consider pacifying for a bit to let your chain reset.
    • Ex attacks: these are the character specific bullets. You send them to your opponents by destroying spirits (white birdy things), so kill a lot of spirits. Practice playing against a variety of characters to just get used to dodging all of them.
    • Bullet reflecting: shooting fairies makes them explode, which also sends any white pellet bullets around them to your opponent's side. Furthermore, if you activate a spirit by making it run into your scope, those also reflect bullets. Thus, you don't always need a level 2 spell to dodge a dense cloud: if there's a spirit or fairy line nearby, you might be able to reflect them back without using your gauge.
    • Using level 2s: Never use level 3/4 spells or bombs! Spamming level 2 spells is good for your spell points, which means you'll be sending level 4's for free over to your opponent. It's also smarter defensively, since you get more free passes out of sticky situations. If you're at level 4, shoot off a level 2. The only time you should bomb is if you see a G item (fills your whole gauge) or if you're going to die otherwise. Even then, maybe only if getting hit will put you at your last health (since that also gives you free full gauge).
    I've left out some details, and maybe I'm being unclear on some points, but I think I've sort of summarized the important things.
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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #11 on: May 28, 2013, 11:38:15 am »
    There's also a "General PoFV Strategy" thread that's still open and on the front page of HME.

    Lunatic, please.

    adonis2.

    edit: adonis1, vpatch.  Uploaded these because the link to adonis1 is dead in both the pastebin and on the wiki, and kaei_adonis' link to the vpatch for adonis keeps timing out for me (not sure if it's different from the one with all the other vpatches, but it's the one I use for multiplayer).  I reset the ini files to what I thought were the default values.

    It's also worth noting that you'll need to copy/rename your game exe files if you want to have each adonis open the English-patched version of PoFV.  Rename th09.exe (Japanese) to something else (like th09j.exe), and copy th09e.exe (English) to th09.exe.  The reason for this is that adonise.exe opens th09e.exe and adonis2.exe opens th09.exe.
    « Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 12:07:05 pm by K.B. »
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    yorgje

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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #12 on: May 28, 2013, 12:46:54 pm »
    Thanks KB. I've updated the OP
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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #13 on: May 29, 2013, 11:55:37 am »
    OP has been updated with a few things:
    • Difficulty has been fixed at Lunatic.
    • I had the wrong date (next week Friday is the 7th, not the 8th. Oops)
    • There's been some discussion about whether seeding should be random or skill-based. Please voice your opinion on this matter, if you have one. There's a little bit about this at the bottom of the OP
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    Sakurei

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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #14 on: May 29, 2013, 01:06:17 pm »
    you vote for banning medicine as a playable. this tournament is supposed to be fun, right? fighting medicine however is just frustrating and not fun. I know it's a bit unfair for those who main medicine (if there is any), but she is simply unfair for the opponent. it's up to you, though. I just thought I'd throw that in for good emasure.

    and as I said on the channel. make it random based on geographical location. seeding zil vs a newcomer for the sake of having a strong vs weak player is unfair for the newcomer. it's a different if it's random because...it'd random. it's simply a matter of fairness, if you ask me.

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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #15 on: May 29, 2013, 01:30:58 pm »
    There's no need to ban Medicine. She's nowhere near her Lunatic story mode form. In match mode she's neither the most dangerous nor the most annoying (imo). Not with buttheads like Reimu running around.

    I don't really have much of an opinion on the seeding. If there weren't a loser's bracket, I'd say the seeding should definitely be skill based. As it is though, you can probably get away with not doing that, and the early matches will be more interesting.
    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #16 on: May 29, 2013, 10:47:53 pm »
    Neither Medi nor ranked seeding is unfair.  Unfun could be true in either case, but there's what Zil said about Medi and there's the fact that ranked seeding is done to ensure fairness.  It's incorrect and demeaning to say either is unfair.

    I think that whatever is decided in either case will be fine. 
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    SeasideCharizard

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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #17 on: May 29, 2013, 11:45:50 pm »
    ...Is there really not that much of a difference in difficulties?

    I notice a HUGE difference, especially in the semi-random semi-aimed tiny bullets that spawn all the time. Yes, it's that big.
    Actually, the spell cards is what I didn't notice the difference in.

    Buuut anyway, yeah, I'd say skill-based. It's as standard as standard can almost be, which is a good thing.

    yorgje

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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #18 on: May 30, 2013, 01:15:23 pm »
    No characters will be banned. If we ban medicine, then people will argue that we should ban reimu, marisa, youmu, etc, and then eventually we'll only be allowed to play Cirno. Okay, fallacious slippery slope argument aside, I think that players who are good enough to make medicine awful would also probably be playing other characters.

    ...Is there really not that much of a difference in difficulties?

    I notice a HUGE difference, especially in the semi-random semi-aimed tiny bullets that spawn all the time. Yes, it's that big.
    Actually, the spell cards is what I didn't notice the difference in.

    I think that the number of tiny bullets has more to do with your opponent than the difficulty. If you're both pacifisting, there's hardly anything on the screen regardless of difficulty. This is an extreme example, but illustrative of the point.

    People seem to prefer skill based seeding, so I'll go back to that if that seems to still be the popular consensus after another day or two. (Sorry Sakurei).
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    Star King

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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #19 on: May 31, 2013, 04:44:33 am »
    you vote for banning medicine as a playable. this tournament is supposed to be fun, right? fighting medicine however is just frustrating and not fun. I know it's a bit unfair for those who main medicine (if there is any), but she is simply unfair for the opponent. it's up to you, though. I just thought I'd throw that in for good emasure.

    and as I said on the channel. make it random based on geographical location. seeding zil vs a newcomer for the sake of having a strong vs weak player is unfair for the newcomer. it's a different if it's random because...it'd random. it's simply a matter of fairness, if you ask me.

    IDK if you play any games competitively, but banning characters on a subjective criteria such as "fun" is not how it works.

    If you ask me, Reimu is the most annoying. You see? Subjective.

    Medicine isn't even close to a top character in Japanese PoFV tournaments, let alone broken.
    « Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 04:48:05 am by Star King »
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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #20 on: May 31, 2013, 07:41:10 am »
    I wouldn't mind seeing Medicine banned since she's a horrifying abomination that has no place in a good game like this.

    Similarly, I would love to see Ass Fairies removed. One can only dream.

    yorgje

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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #21 on: May 31, 2013, 06:27:16 pm »
    ...
    No need to get argumentative over it. I think Sakurei had a valid point, especially since this is being marketed towards players of all skill levels, not just superplayers. However, yeah I suppose the main thing is that, without sufficient proof of brokenness, I don't feel comfortable banning anyone. Since "brokenness" is hardly a well-defined word, this becomes an even more difficult task.

    I wouldn't mind seeing Medicine banned since she's a horrifying abomination that has no place in a good game like this.

    Similarly, I would love to see Ass Fairies removed. One can only dream.
    b-b-but muh medicine ;_;
    By ass fairies, are you referring to the girly creatures in the header? That can be arranged, although I will be a bit sad to see them go.
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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #22 on: May 31, 2013, 06:52:44 pm »
    By ass fairies, are you referring to the girly creatures in the header? That can be arranged, although I will be a bit sad to see them go.
    The fairies that come up from the bottom corner.  The number of rounds I've lost due to being rammed by one of them...

    yorgje

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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #23 on: May 31, 2013, 07:08:13 pm »
    The fairies that come up from the bottom corner.  The number of rounds I've lost due to being rammed by one of them...
    Oh. Just play lyrica, no big deal :)
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    yorgje

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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #24 on: June 05, 2013, 01:32:23 am »
    Okay, regarding the character banning discussion:
    I've gotten suggestions from several people to allow each player to ban their opponent from playing one character each round. Thoughts? Sounds like a pretty fair compromise to me.
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    Sakurei

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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #25 on: June 05, 2013, 02:20:57 am »
    sounds fair to me. obviously, this is an optinal thing, right? I don't feel the need to impose a ban on anyone when I am playing some people knowing they won't want to dick me over with a terrible choice.

    though that pretty much makes riemu unplayable against most people, since I imagine they won't want to fight her :D

    Validon98

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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #26 on: June 06, 2013, 07:46:17 pm »
    Alright, I'm going for this even though I couldn't host before and I've played only one netplay match. ^^;
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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #27 on: June 07, 2013, 03:55:16 am »
    we in there
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    How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

    lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #28 on: June 07, 2013, 07:25:20 am »
    will the tournament is uploaded to a video site such as youtube?

    my computer was very slow like my improvement in touhou

    yorgje

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    Re: PoFV Tournament
    « Reply #29 on: June 07, 2013, 08:56:47 am »
    Note: Today is the last day to sign up! I'll be making the bracket in about 15 hours or so, and whoever's signed up by then will be included.

    Also, the rules have been finalized, so feel free to study them in earnest.

    sounds fair to me. obviously, this is an optinal thing, right? I don't feel the need to impose a ban on anyone when I am playing some people knowing they won't want to dick me over with a terrible choice.

    though that pretty much makes riemu unplayable against most people, since I imagine they won't want to fight her :D
    Yes, it's optional.

    Alright, I'm going for this even though I couldn't host before and I've played only one netplay match. ^^;
    Good luck! Try to get some netplay practice before the tourney though, as it's very different from 1p.

    will the tournament is uploaded to a video site such as youtube?

    my computer was very slow like my improvement in touhou
    With the permission of the  players, some matches may end up on youtube.
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