Author Topic: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)  (Read 430898 times)

The Noodles Guy

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #570 on: July 21, 2013, 07:50:07 PM »
Suika is back! YAY!!!

That means we could confront an Oni. Or an Oni God. Or Yuugi, who's angry because Sakuya knive'd her.
Easy Modo? That's for kids, and for me.

Darkness1

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #571 on: July 21, 2013, 08:17:47 PM »
And this is where I would say that Oni God would refer to one of the devas.

SatorKoi57

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #572 on: July 21, 2013, 08:40:57 PM »
So either a returning or new oni.

WYNAUT MAK IT HAV FREE HORNS!?!!?! (In proper english: Why not make it have 3 horns, Suika had 2 and Yuugi had 1, so it could make sense.)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 12:49:07 AM by SatorKoi57 »
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Kingault

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #573 on: July 21, 2013, 09:02:14 PM »
Why the hell would we get another oni? *FACEPALM* We already have 2 of those, we don't really need another one.

But that really didn't stop ZUN from making Shou when we had Chen and Orin. So either another returning, or a new one.

WYNAUT MAK IT HAV FREE HORNS!?!!?! (In proper english: Why not make it have 3 horns, Suika had 2 and Yuugi had 1, so it could make sense.)

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Darkness1

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #574 on: July 21, 2013, 09:13:54 PM »
Why the hell would we get another oni? *FACEPALM* We already have 2 of those, we don't really need another one.
Because there's atleast one oni deva left for the 4th one.
The other choices would be Kasen or, maybe, Konngara (which most likely isn't true since she seemed to be bleeding from her horn).

EDIT: nevermind, some error.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 09:16:17 PM by Darkness1 »

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #575 on: July 21, 2013, 09:51:50 PM »
Probably coincidence, given the way characters work.

I swear the wiki is turning into TVTropes more and more by the day.

I'd say ZUN is going for more clever wordplay here like he did with Shinkirou for th13.5. It looks a lot like he chose the kanji for the sake of making "kishin" work out instead of for the meanings of the kanji themselves.

The thing is that we've already been introduced to the concept of a kishin/oni god, but I dunno if that makes it more or less likely for it to appear in a Touhou game. Onis seem out of place with the rest of the story, so maybe as an extra boss.

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #576 on: July 21, 2013, 10:58:27 PM »
And this is where I would say that Oni God would refer to one of the devas.
No it doesn't.

Why the hell would we get another oni? *FACEPALM* We already have 2 of those, we don't really need another one.
WYNAUT MAK IT HAV FREE HORNS!?!!?! (In proper english: Why not make it have 3 horns, Suika had 2 and Yuugi had 1, so it could make sense.)
Well, even besides the fact that we know of an entire oni culture established underground and another culture of oni working for the Ministry of Right and Wrong, we know that we should have four oni making up the Big Four of the Mountain. Even assuming Kasen is the third, we have precedence and available room for the last. Personally I don't think this game will be that case, but we definitely have room for more oni.

But that really didn't stop ZUN from making Shou when we had Chen and Orin. So either another returning, or a new one.
None of those are the same type of youkai. Chen is a nekomata, Orin is a Kasha. Shou is a generic tiger youkai. But even if they were the exact same type of youkai it shouldn't be a big deal. Are you also perturbed by the fact that there are hundreds of kappa, hundreds of tengu, hundreds of moon rabbits?

I'd say ZUN is going for more clever wordplay here like he did with Shinkirou for th13.5. It looks a lot like he chose the kanji for the sake of making "kishin" work out instead of for the meanings of the kanji themselves.
I don't think it's apt to say that it was intended to be kishin just because that's what you see. We haven't even stepped into the guts of the game's plot yet, never mind what the game is actually about. "Kishin" can mean several things, not that many are used, but "shinjou" can have a pretty wide and varied number of meanings. But regardless, it still isn't necessary that he has a particular pun in mind at all, and I think it's much too early to say so.

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SatorKoi57

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #577 on: July 21, 2013, 11:06:10 PM »
Think  about it for a moment:
NEKOmata = Old cat that suddenly gains 2 tails.
Kasha = Demon Cat Youkai
Tiger = Species of wild cat

I didn't mean that they were ALL the type of myth, merely just based on the same animal. In this case, a cat.

And if could you tell me how this explanation is right or wrong, feel free to do so.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 02:27:50 AM by SatorKoi57 »
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Drake

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #578 on: July 21, 2013, 11:23:37 PM »
It isn't "wrong", I knew what you were getting at. It's just a bad complaint. Again, are you also perturbed by the fact that there are hundreds of kappa, hundreds of tengu, hundreds of moon rabbits? Is it also a problem that we got Hatate when we already have Aya? Does it not matter to you that the attributes and personalities of these three characters are completely different from each other and have little to nothing to do with them being feline-based at all, one of them not even having cat ears nor tail? As far as I can tell, you're choosing to ignore all of this and just moan at the amazingly huge number of youkai we have based on catlike myths.

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Validon98

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #579 on: July 21, 2013, 11:26:41 PM »
You do realize there's a big difference between a housecat and a tiger?
And the three are completely different type of youkai. Saying they're the same thing is wrong even if they are based off of the same animal.
I for one, by the way, am fine with another oni being revealed. I'm getting a feeling too that it might be one of the Four Devas, but who knows? Regardless, Drake's right about the oni (although the Ministry of Right and Wrong I thought was a fanon thing, Higan being definitely canon, though you're free to correct me if I'm wrong).

Cut: And Drake hits it right on the head. ^^;
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SatorKoi57

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #580 on: July 21, 2013, 11:47:34 PM »
I could get you're saying Drake, up until the fact that Nitori is pretty much the only "major" Kappa in the entire franchise  :V. We barely know about the other ones, we just know they're THERE. And Mitori's just a fan creation (assuming she IS a kappa, which I remember her being).

Plus in game canon, we only have 2 rabbits, and LIKE the kappa, we don't know the others aside from Reisen 2, who is only MANGA CANON. And if were talking about moon rabbits, there's only 1 that we ever know a lot about in the games.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 02:29:07 AM by SatorKoi57 »
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cuc

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #581 on: July 21, 2013, 11:56:56 PM »
For me, the thought chain goes "flying castle? -> traditional-style mechanism -> those intricate Japanese automaton dolls".

Some Japanese speculation:

-The castle is literal this time. It creaks in wind, meaning it's a Japanese wooden castle.

-There are still quite a few options. In terms of "entering fantasy", it can be a castled burnt down by fire, such as Edo castle; in terms of castle youkai, Himeji castle has a woman Nagakabe-hime who lived in its highest attic, and offered prophecies to its master every year.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 01:41:57 AM by cuc »
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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #582 on: July 22, 2013, 12:27:14 AM »
I could get you're saying Drake, up until the fact that Nitori is pretty much the only important Kappa in the entire franchise  :V. We barely know about the other ones, we just know they're THERE. And Mitori's just a fan creation (assuming she IS a kappa, which I remember her being).

Plus in game canon, we only have 2 rabbits, and LIKE the kappa, we don't know the others aside from Reisen 2, who is only MANGA CANON. And if were talking about moon rabbits, there's only 1 that we ever know a lot about in the games.
"only manga canon" wat
It doesn't matter that we only have a few with profiles or whatever. The point is that we have entire communities of a single type of youkai, and at any time we could have several more that become well-established just as Hatate has. Nitori isn't even "important", she's just one other kappa amidst the tons of others that we just happen to expand on. Your label of importance is just based on us having more information about them. Regardless, having a whole three characters that happen to share a similar animal in their myth is absolutely meaningless. They weren't even established for the same reasons or have anything to do with each other. They don't look alike, they don't act alike, one of them doesn't even look like a cat. How you manage to make this sound like a big deal astounds me.


For me, the thought chain goes "flying castle? -> traditional-style mechanism -> those intricate Japanese automaton dolls".
That's what I've been thinking too but I hope it isn't true because my notion for some original characters stem from that sort of story and settings :C
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 12:29:44 AM by Drake »

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SatorKoi57

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #583 on: July 22, 2013, 12:41:24 AM »
OKAY OKAY. Now would you leave this "Another oni is a bad thing" topic to rot in hell please?
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Validon98

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #584 on: July 22, 2013, 12:47:14 AM »
...But you brought it up in the first place. =_=;
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SatorKoi57

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #585 on: July 22, 2013, 12:48:17 AM »
Maybe I could just edit my posts.  :derp:
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Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #586 on: July 22, 2013, 01:57:24 AM »
Going back and editing your posts for that reason just confuses the conversation. If you want it to drop, you can always change the subject or not discuss it.

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SatorKoi57

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #587 on: July 22, 2013, 02:30:20 AM »
Okay, let's get back to talking about why a doppelganger would be a good 4th stage boss  :3.

And I reverted the posts back.
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Kingault

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #588 on: July 22, 2013, 03:42:15 AM »
Okay, let's get back to talking about why a doppelganger would be a good 4th stage boss  :3.

And I reverted the posts back.

Stage 4 I think will be something like this:

Reimu A fights Marisa B/Sakuya B, Marisa A fights Sakuya B/Reimu B, and Sakuya A fights Reimu B/Marisa B.
And
Reimu B fights Sakuya A/Marisa A, Marisa B fights Reimu B/Sakuya B, and Sakuya B fights Marisa A/Reimu A.

ToyoRai

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #589 on: July 22, 2013, 04:45:04 AM »
To be honest, I really want ZUN to follow the "youkais base on or take inspiration from western myths" motifs he has going on here. Like, kishin would be nice, but unless she takes stuff from some sort of mosnter from western myths, it wouldn't be the same. And I think some time ago I said he should put a hobgoblin somewhere in there.

On talk about gameplay, has any one noticed that the "exhaust" flames from MarisA's focus shot can harm enemies behind Marisa?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 05:20:39 AM by ToyoRai »

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #590 on: July 22, 2013, 05:19:00 AM »
Frigging hobgoblins and now chupacabras as well.  Next time Remilia shows up she'll be trying to find her lost fish who ended up in the Misty Lake.  Who happens to be a Leviathan or Megalodon maybe. 

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #591 on: July 22, 2013, 07:31:07 AM »
Why should the fourth boss be of the playable characters?
I would prefer to have new characters even if it is only one. Recurring characters just fill in for missing spots in the Touhou roster.
That's just my opinion though.
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Darkness1

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #592 on: July 22, 2013, 10:40:26 AM »
Why should the fourth boss be of the playable characters?
I would prefer to have new characters even if it is only one. Recurring characters just fill in for missing spots in the Touhou roster.
That's just my opinion though.
Agreed, to have playable characters as the 4th boss again wouldn't really be fun and would just take up the spot for more interesting characters.
About the castle, would the quote "Eastern Castle of Shining Needles" have anything to do with it?
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Imosa

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #593 on: July 22, 2013, 01:24:45 PM »
On talk about gameplay, has any one noticed that the "exhaust" flames from MarisA's focus shot can harm enemies behind Marisa?
I thought this was really cool. It just made the whole shot type that much more powerful.

I would also dislike seeing a stage 4 like that of IN. However, I simply want to see more Western Touhous. What kinda bothers me is people wanting new characters for the sake of having new characters. I really don't get the appeal of that.

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #594 on: July 22, 2013, 02:11:57 PM »
What kinda bothers me is people wanting new characters for the sake of having new characters. I really don't get the appeal of that.
Quote
However, I simply want to see more Western Touhous.

You don't get the appeal of having new characters, yet you want new characters?

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #595 on: July 22, 2013, 02:13:43 PM »
Oh, I reckon wanting new faces can come from enjoying new story dimensions, new relationships, a living Gensokyo with new arrivals like any other country and so on. Seems totally understandable.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

ToyoRai

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #596 on: July 22, 2013, 02:47:57 PM »
What he said. Wanting new characters is fine, but they should have something to do with the story. Having a new character just to have one is not a good thing.

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #597 on: July 22, 2013, 02:51:36 PM »
I like new characters but certainly not for story reasons.  :V

Imosa

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #598 on: July 22, 2013, 03:18:43 PM »
No, it was confusing. Its not even so important that the character be related to the story. What bothers me is the number of characters that seem to sink into obscurity, when instead ZUN could focus on existing characters and make them more interesting.
At the same time I don't mind seeing new characters. After all, there's not telling if a new character might be more popular, and if we're going to get a new character we might as well get one with western influence because, that's something new.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 03:28:32 PM by Imosa »

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #599 on: July 22, 2013, 03:31:44 PM »
No, it was confusing. Its not even so important that the character be related to the story. What bothers me is the number of characters that seem to sink into obscurity, when instead ZUN could focus on existing characters and make them more interesting.
Well, I think this is more a question of personal taste, but speaking solely for myself, I think we already have a pretty fleshed-out story going on, with major players who are already plenty interesting. But making existing characters more interesting isn't mutually exclusive with adding new ones, so yeah, I'd like to see both.

But either way, I'm not holding my breath. ZUN has gone on record as saying he likes leaving some things open-ended and unexplained. I think this lends itself to tending less to develop existing cast members and more adding cast.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."