Author Topic: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)  (Read 431159 times)

BT

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #390 on: June 08, 2013, 05:49:49 PM »
He changed it back because of the gimmick, which is the vexing part here.

I'm also pretty sure you always start with 3 bombs after a death, any death.

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #391 on: June 08, 2013, 05:51:52 PM »
But again, how does this "ruin" the PoC if you make the conscious decision to just ... not bombspam, but use them only when your life is in danger?

By the by, maybe it's just me, but deathbombing seems harder to do in this game. I think that, and losing 2 bombs per death, is a form of balance for the bombing autocollect (which, I might add, I don't remember anyone complaining about before).

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

BT

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #392 on: June 08, 2013, 06:06:15 PM »
But again, how does this "ruin" the PoC if you make the conscious decision to just ... not bombspam, but use them only when your life is in danger?
It is advantageous for scorerunners to bomb over planning PoC routes.

Actually, to clarify, this isn't super true right now, but if the later stages have more items to collect (like every game in the series so far) it'll be much easier to bombspam for extends and suddenly b-b-b-d-b-b-b-d is a real strategy.

By the by, maybe it's just me, but deathbombing seems harder to do in this game. I think that, and losing 2 bombs per death, is a form of balance for the bombing autocollect (which, I might add, I don't remember anyone complaining about before).
You don't lose two bombs per death. You always start with 3 bombs after a death, along with 0 to 7 bomb pieces that you had before your death. (so if you died with 4 bombs and 7 pieces, you respawn with 3 bombs and 7 pieces, same with 1 bomb and 7 pieces)
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 06:09:56 PM by BT »

Zil

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #393 on: June 08, 2013, 06:17:05 PM »
Doesn't bombing more or less always result in some massive autocollect?
You mean in Touhou games in general? They do I suppose, but there's generally been a penalty for using them. PCB, IN, and MoF directly damage your point item value. SA (and MoF) drops your power level so you get power items instead green stars, and has a big clear bonus to discourage suiciding. UFO encourages you not to collect the bombs in the first place, since blue and rainbow UFOs are much better for score. In TD, bombing was a purely rewarding action, so an ideal score run involved bombspamming. DDC likewise has no apparent penalty for bombing. It's only good for you. Though to be fair, the number of them available throughout the game will effect how often you can use them for scoring. As it is they seem extremely plentiful, but ZUN may increase the number of fragments needed, so that's up in the air I guess.

And I guess you can simply choose not to use them if you don't want to, and then in a sense they only "ruin" the scoring if choose to use them that way. I don't think that excuses ZUN's design choices though. Players are going to want to play competitively and all that. The game should be balanced on its own.

edit: cut by a bunch of people. But yeah, you can't really hold back on bombspamming and still play competitively. And then players who are competitive have a lot less to work with when it comes to planning and execution and all that, because the solution to many situations becomes "just bomb."

Making it harder to deathbomb wouldn't balance anything anyway. You're not deathbombing when you bomb for the auto collection, you just bomb when the screen's full of items/bullets. The feature could be removed completely and it would barely effect anything.

another edit:
Actually, to clarify, this isn't super true right now, but if the later stages have more items to collect (like every game in the series so far) it'll be much easier to bombspam for extends and suddenly b-b-b-d-b-b-b-d is a real strategy.
And this, yes. Even survival play is effected when you can use the bombs to easily get life fragments (which is the big deal with MarisaB right now).
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 06:19:12 PM by Super Saizou World »

Darkness1

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #394 on: June 08, 2013, 06:21:34 PM »
How does the mirror theme fit into that? Also doesn't Shinto say everything has it's own spirit?
Yeah, I haven't really read up on those things, but if everything has its own spirit, I guess someone who can influence it or manipulate it somehow would make it interesting.
The mirror theme was just something I thought of to show the true character behind everything, or something similair.
Since the main theme seems to be corruption, It seemed to make the most sense in my head if something were influencing major spirits  in some way.


Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #395 on: June 08, 2013, 06:56:32 PM »
You don't lose two bombs per death. You always start with 3 bombs after a death, along with 0 to 7 bomb pieces that you had before your death. (so if you died with 4 bombs and 7 pieces, you respawn with 3 bombs and 7 pieces, same with 1 bomb and 7 pieces)

OK I think we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about losing a life, i.e., to pichun, while still having lives left. This will result in losing two bombs.
Running out of lives seems to be what you're talking about.

The scorerunning point I think is valid with regards to bombs, thanks to more information that has been provided. There ought to be a way to play for score without relying heavily on bombs, and hopefully, that'll be provided.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #396 on: June 08, 2013, 07:04:40 PM »
BT is saying that dying resets your bomb count. So if you died with 5 bombs, you'll "lose" two bombs in that your bomb count becomes 3 again. But you'll "gain" two if you died with only one bomb, and so on.

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #397 on: June 08, 2013, 07:06:48 PM »
Oh the things you learn.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #398 on: June 08, 2013, 07:42:12 PM »
BT is saying that dying resets your bomb count. So if you died with 5 bombs, you'll "lose" two bombs in that your bomb count becomes 3 again. But you'll "gain" two if you died with only one bomb, and so on.
isnt that like every touhou game ???

Kingault

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #399 on: June 08, 2013, 07:46:13 PM »
isnt that like every touhou game ???

I considered saying that but I knew someone else would, and I'd be stealing someone else's post, or something.
Cheers.

BT

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #400 on: June 08, 2013, 07:46:32 PM »
isnt that like every touhou game ???
Some of 'em let you keep your X bombs as long as X is greater than 3, but I forget which. UFO and...? Of course, even when that happens it's "bombs wasted" because you won't be getting those "free" 3 lives upon dying with 0, instead dying and keeping 6 (for example). Better to waste them.

Sage Ω (Ultima)

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #401 on: June 08, 2013, 08:07:41 PM »
It didn't in SA, UFO and TD, so he had to program it back in

...which is pretty questionable, given the gimmick of the game.

But in SA using Yukari's bomb fills the graze meter up to the max and it triggers a autocollect at the end. In UFO and TD you can easily move up to the top and back to the bottom.

Kingault

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #402 on: June 08, 2013, 08:24:38 PM »
Some of 'em let you keep your X bombs as long as X is greater than 3, but I forget which. UFO and...? Of course, even when that happens it's "bombs wasted" because you won't be getting those "free" 3 lives upon dying with 0, instead dying and keeping 6 (for example). Better to waste them.

I think you mean free 3 bombs...

BT

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #403 on: June 08, 2013, 08:31:43 PM »
Yes, I do.

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #404 on: June 08, 2013, 09:19:47 PM »
isnt that like every touhou game ???
If I recall correctly, in TD you don't lose bombs if you die (but gain if you die while having less than the minimum).
Would be glad to get help with Touhou Doumeiju ~ Mystical Power Plant Translation Project spellcard comments' translation.

Lawence Codye

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #405 on: June 09, 2013, 01:06:39 AM »
Only thing I had a problem with in regards to the demo was the fps dropping which can't be right as I played every other Touhou game just fine without the lag...
Also noticed that depending on the size for the window you choose before playing the game, full-screen isn't possible & when it is, it is not really full-screen...
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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #406 on: June 09, 2013, 01:09:12 AM »
By the by, maybe it's just me, but deathbombing seems harder to do in this game. I think that, and losing 2 bombs per death, is a form of balance for the bombing autocollect (which, I might add, I don't remember anyone complaining about before).
I'm actually deathbombing pretty well in this game. TD was the worst for me for deathbombing

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #407 on: June 09, 2013, 01:11:48 AM »
Only thing I had a problem with in regards to the demo was the fps dropping which can't be right as I played every other Touhou game just fine without the lag...
Also noticed that depending on the size for the window you choose before playing the game, full-screen isn't possible & when it is, it is not really full-screen...

Have you tried setting the game settings to Fast instead of automatic? that worked for me. try it out if you haven't.
It's the bottom most option, the one labelled 高速 if you are in doubt.

Sage Ω (Ultima)

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #408 on: June 09, 2013, 01:33:31 AM »
Only thing I had a problem with in regards to the demo was the fps dropping which can't be right as I played every other Touhou game just fine without the lag...
Also noticed that depending on the size for the window you choose before playing the game, full-screen isn't possible & when it is, it is not really full-screen...

The game will crash if you full screen in a resolution your monitor doesn't support. My laptop doesn't support the highest resolution the games offer so it crashes if I go full screen.

Darkness1

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #409 on: June 09, 2013, 08:52:37 AM »
Only thing I had a problem with in regards to the demo was the fps dropping which can't be right as I played every other Touhou game just fine without the lag...
Also noticed that depending on the size for the window you choose before playing the game, full-screen isn't possible & when it is, it is not really full-screen...
Only thing I remember doing was putting the resolution at the lowest, but then I still got fps drop during the charge effect and the stage 2 background.

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #410 on: June 09, 2013, 11:08:51 AM »
The game will crash if you full screen in a resolution your monitor doesn't support. My laptop doesn't support the highest resolution the games offer so it crashes if I go full screen.
Ah that explains it. For some reason it lags consistently unless my charger is plugger too (It's the only touhou game to do this). HM outright overheats my laptop to crash point (wtf)

Sage Ω (Ultima)

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #411 on: June 09, 2013, 12:26:02 PM »
Ah that explains it. For some reason it lags consistently unless my charger is plugger too (It's the only touhou game to do this). HM outright overheats my laptop to crash point (wtf)

Probably need to change your power plan. On laptops when the battery level reaches a certain point it will slow down the cpu to save battery. But even then a Touhou game isn't cpu heavy at all. Especially if you have anything from the Core i series.

Darkness1

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #412 on: June 09, 2013, 04:05:43 PM »
Have you tried setting the game settings to Fast instead of automatic? that worked for me. try it out if you haven't.
It's the bottom most option, the one labelled 高速 if you are in doubt.
Okay, that got rid of all my lag. Thank you (even if it wasn't directed to me).

Mayson

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #413 on: June 09, 2013, 04:10:06 PM »
Regarding this bomb discussion and scoring, there was a pretty smart solution he had developed himself a long time ago. Let's go back to
Spoiler:
the dreaded PC98 Era!

Back then in Mystic Square you were scoring with items and collecting them as at far at the top of screen as possible for the maximum point bonus. For each item you gathered your "item bar" for a lack of a better term increased and for each time it increased the range at which you received the maximum bonus for items increased too. With the maximum of that item bar it was possible to receive the maximum item value somewhere below the middle of the screen. Now, if someone bombed it still auto collected all items, but using a bomb or dying almost completely emptied the item bar and this made scoring itself harder. On that note, it took roughly two of six levels of the game to fill the item bar to the maximum, so losing it was quite harsh.

Now, if that feature was reimplemented in DDC *and* the item bar would strongly affect the item value (such as item display bar max = item value x4), then there would be a direct demerit to death bombing. In fact it would discourage both, bombing and dying. Deathbombing would be useful for survival but not scoring.


Edit: Little correction - It was not about POCing in Mystic Square.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 04:28:00 PM by Mayson »

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #414 on: June 09, 2013, 11:13:02 PM »
Going back to the Revisiting previous games theory - I think Stage 2 really is suppose to represent PCB. Obviously it takes place near the human village (And can't go all the way to Hakugokurou.) But the stage puts heavy significance as the fact that it takes place in a resting point under a large tree. Even one of the Dialogs (I think Marisa's) Makes mention of something like "I thought only that ghost could sleep under the willows like this."

Preedit: I suppose it's just "Phantoms" but I still feel it's suppose to be a symbolic reference to Yuyuko and Saigyou.
In any case, I don't think they're literally going to go from place to place, but I do feel like it's leading you around the previous games.

I'm also really suspicious about the black power that gathers when youkai appear/charge up.

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #415 on: June 11, 2013, 10:26:32 AM »
Regarding this bomb discussion and scoring, there was a pretty smart solution he had developed himself a long time ago.

Is that solution "graze, graze and graze some more"? Because that's the solution I found. Sekibanki is especially ripe for a lot of hilarious graze-whoring.

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Karisa

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #416 on: June 13, 2013, 02:50:22 AM »
The post implies that the solution was to add a penalty for dying or bombing.

This was done in:
- Mystic Square (where it's quite difficult to recover your dream bonus once it decreases, effectively meaning a scorerun's primary goal is not dying or bombing)
- Perfect Cherry Blossom (where the penalty is smaller, but noticeable if you die a lot to the same boss)
- Mountain of Faith (dying penalty is huge, bombing isn't but bosses drop more point items if you're at 5 power)
Also IN, but it was negligible there (dying or deathbombing costs you around 500 time orbs). Bombing has no scoring benefit in that game, though, aside from auto-collecting in some parts of stage 4.

I'm hoping DDC will have a high stage 6 clear bonus, anyway. With the current system, it's the clear bonus that will make the difference between eight extra scoring suicides or not (compare clear bonuses in UFO/TD/EoSD with those in PCB/IN/MoF/SA/GFW). If it's sufficiently high (perhaps 50 million per life?), the resulting gameplay would be more like GFW, where you can afford to die sometimes, but finishing with maximum lives would still be a top priority.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 03:43:59 AM by Karisa »

ふねん1

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #417 on: June 13, 2013, 03:09:43 AM »
You know, I actually have more of a problem with the fact that bullets cancelled from bombs can increase your base Point value by rather significant amounts. It gets rid of so much incentive for grazing outside of obvious attacks like Wakasagihime's first spell. Sure, a high clear bonus can also help deter bomb usage, but really, bombing doesn't need to be this lucrative on its own.
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Karisa

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #418 on: June 13, 2013, 04:51:52 AM »
Hmm... that reminds me, among Touhou games with adjustable point item value, it seems DDC is the first since LLS where the scoring gimmick doesn't increase PIV directly (or decrease it, in the case of MoF's faith system). The dream bonus, borders, time orbs, faith system, communication gauge, UFO tokens (if collected during a UFO summon), and trance system all directly affect the PIV.

Perhaps it would have been better if auto-collect bonuses added to the base PIV by a few hundred to a few thousand, instead of (or in addition to?) giving a direct multiplier? (And with canceled bullet value reduced during bombs, like EoSD tried to do?) Not that we can expect that large of a change to occur.

Edit: Though that still wouldn't make the stage portions any less bomb-reliant. LLS-style scoring (bomb the stages for point multipliers, conserve resources during the bosses) is all right, but the POC system has more potential than that...
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 05:38:30 AM by Karisa »

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #419 on: June 18, 2013, 05:28:53 AM »
By the way, didn't ZUN state somewhere that he's planning to reveal Sakuya's past in future games? Maybe this new arc will revolve around that?