Author Topic: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)  (Read 430750 times)

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #300 on: June 01, 2013, 02:35:58 PM »
I'm pretty disappointed in the themes of the shot types. Their weapons are corrupt but then they uses them in both shot types? What's the point of inconveniencing the characters if you just give them an easy out. Also I heard there were supposed to be 3 shot types per person, was that wrong?
They don't use them in both shot types. The sprites even edit out their arms holding the weapons. I mean, I guess Sakuya throws knives anyway, but we can assume they're different knives. She doesn't have any other bullet types associated with her anyway.

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #301 on: June 01, 2013, 02:49:52 PM »
She doesn't have any other bullet types associated with her anyway.
Then why didn't ZUN give her a new type of bullet :V ? I was hoping we should see something different from her than just knives.

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #302 on: June 01, 2013, 03:31:52 PM »
Then why didn't ZUN give her a new type of bullet :V ? I was hoping we should see something different from her than just knives.
This. With regards to Reimu and Marisa, I expected ZUN to have them borrow weapons from one of their friends. Marisa could get something goofy from Nitori and Reimu could get something horrible from, Yukari or Sanae. It works out best for Sakuya though. I have no idea who she could borrow from but she's been absent for years, so who has she met over that time, who would help her out here? Someone beyond the mansion, like... I still have no clue, Keine, maybe Youmu (they get along in Life of Maid)?

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #303 on: June 01, 2013, 03:43:49 PM »
This. With regards to Reimu and Marisa, I expected ZUN to have them borrow weapons from one of their friends. Marisa could get something goofy from Nitori and Reimu could get something horrible from, Yukari or Sanae. It works out best for Sakuya though. I have no idea who she could borrow from but she's been absent for years, so who has she met over that time, who would help her out here? Someone beyond the mansion, like... I still have no clue, Keine, maybe Youmu (they get along in Life of Maid)?
Well, Sakuya is one thing, but Reimu's always had her talismans (has she ever even used her gohei outside of fighting games before?) and Marisa's always had her Magic Missiles so why would you think they'd need to borrow weapons?

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #304 on: June 01, 2013, 03:56:42 PM »
So it turns out my guaranteed 60FPS comes from 640x480, windowed. Which has made playing this game ... interesting. That itty bitty window can help me see total patterns better, which really helps me milk the shit out of the PoC, but I get in some pretty tight spaces.
I wanted to talk about it using PM but I'm not allowed to do it yet (I don't have necessary amount of posts for now).
Like you, I'm using Linux Mint, NVidia GPU and have performance issues with DDC (average FPS is 58 and something like 30-40 in some parts of stage 2).
I did a quick check of previous games and noticed one thing. While there is no problems with 6-9 games, I have slightly less than 60 FPS in 10-14 games. Well, I know that my PC isn't new but the interesting thing is next. I started to play TH games quite recently. I did my 1CC Normal of SA at this New Year and still have a replay. I checked it now and noticed that FPS isn't constant 60, it always changes between 56-60. But the game shows that I recorded it at constant FPS 60 (and there are noticeable slows: I have some landmarks using music in 4 and 5 stages and now those moments in BGM are shifted a little).
So, my guess that there were some changes in Wine within half a year that made touhou games starting from TH10 play slower (there is a little chance that it related to NVidia drivers somehow but I doubt), I even checked it on clean wine prefix. Linux, unlike Windows, is more difficult to be polluted with applications so I don't thing that these slowdown are here because I installed something strange since that to slow my system (well, maybe I need to check it on clean OS but I prefer not to do it).
So... well, I'm not fond of current situation.
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Re: Touhou 14 - Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #305 on: June 01, 2013, 05:20:22 PM »
Interesting, vector. One clarification: I'm using Crunchbang. If it's Wine then it's just a matter of trying an older prefix. If it's Nvidia, well, playing with drivers in Linux is always a PITA. Even if testing is fun.

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #306 on: June 01, 2013, 06:11:13 PM »
Well, Sakuya is one thing, but Reimu's always had her talismans (has she ever even used her gohei outside of fighting games before?) and Marisa's always had her Magic Missiles so why would you think they'd need to borrow weapons?
Honestly, I thought Reimu and Marisa were always using their gohei and mini-hakero. Like, they just  need those items to properly use their magic.

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #307 on: June 01, 2013, 07:03:05 PM »
Marisa only needs the Hakkero for sparks. Aside from that, she's just fine. Note how MarisaB's bomb isn't the spark, but MarisaA's is.

As for Reimu, the Gohei's just a ceremonial tool that also happens to be remarkably convenient for busting youkai heads.
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Re: Touhou 14 - Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #308 on: June 01, 2013, 08:16:34 PM »
Interesting, vector. One clarification: I'm using Crunchbang. If it's Wine then it's just a matter of trying an older prefix. If it's Nvidia, well, playing with drivers in Linux is always a PITA. Even if testing is fun.
Oh, then I misread it. I just noticed that you mentioned Linux Mint so I thought that you use it.
I tried some older versions of Wine 1.5 (because it was December then I guess I was using 1.5.15 or something like that) but unfortunately it didn't help (maybe it was Wine 1.4 somehow...?), I still have slowdowns in SA and, of course, DDC.
So, remaining possible culprits are NVidia drivers, Linux kernel update, some strange background applications and... magic? Playing with NVidia drivers is definitely annoying and unsafe, and checking fresh system requires additional harddrive (I don't want to reinstall system just for that to find out that it doesn't change a thing). Both options are quite unpleasant.
One more thing - I remember that every (?) touhou game I played stressed my computer a lot (during playing, coolers in my system unit worked significantly louder) but not now - I'm not sure if I can differ the noise volume of when touhou game is working.
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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #309 on: June 01, 2013, 08:59:43 PM »
Quote
They don't use them in both shot types. The sprites even edit out their arms holding the weapons. I mean, I guess Sakuya throws knives anyway, but we can assume they're different knives. She doesn't have any other bullet types associated with her anyway.

She uses knives in her non-corrupted shot type too? I thought she was going to use playing cards or something. Oh well, that's too bad then.

Quote
Honestly, I thought Reimu and Marisa were always using their gohei and mini-hakero. Like, they just  need those items to properly use their magic.

What Hanzo said. Neither of them need to use weapons. In fact, Reimu hardly uses her Gohei. Kind of like Marisa doesn't even need her broom to fly, but she does, because it is witch like.

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #310 on: June 01, 2013, 09:55:56 PM »
Personally, I think it's neat that we get to see the girls dealing with regular weapons and "possessed" weapons. And it seems it's a pretty crucial part to the story, so I reckon that has a lot to do with the choice made.

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #311 on: June 01, 2013, 10:20:08 PM »
Ok so unlike other Touhou games DDC as you know is the first to be made for higher resolutions. The game seems to use a different file for text and common data. But you'll notice on higher resolutions that the text isn't aligned correctly and most of the stage stuff is still in a low quality like Reimu and some enemies.

I wonder will ZUN make bigger versions of every sprite.

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #312 on: June 01, 2013, 10:25:14 PM »
Ok so unlike other Touhou games DDC as you know is the first to be made for higher resolutions. The game seems to use a different file for text and common data. But you'll notice on higher resolutions that the text isn't aligned correctly and most of the stage stuff is still in a low quality like Reimu and some enemies.

I wonder will ZUN make bigger versions of every sprite.

It's possible, and very likely. However, rendering the bullets to be a larger size isn't exactly easy given how packed they are. He'd have to re-sprite his bullets, and that's not favorable. Also, he still has to deal with the ugly Stage 2 pre-midboss background issue where the willow leaves move halfway across the screen, the alpha values for the background change, and where the camera view shifts over a certain amount of time, requiring the effects to be layered and rendered at a different angle.

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #313 on: June 01, 2013, 10:38:57 PM »
It's possible, and very likely. However, rendering the bullets to be a larger size isn't exactly easy given how packed they are. He'd have to re-sprite his bullets, and that's not favorable. Also, he still has to deal with the ugly Stage 2 pre-midboss background issue where the willow leaves move halfway across the screen, the alpha values for the background change, and where the camera view shifts over a certain amount of time, requiring the effects to be layered and rendered at a different angle.

You know I worded that wrong. What I mean by bigger is ZUN making the sprites more detailed for bigger screens as we can still see the characters and enemies have very low detail to them.

Basically ZUN should clean up everything and give them more detail.

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #314 on: June 01, 2013, 11:06:06 PM »
I think sprites are pretty low on the priorities list when it comes to "things to put more detail into making". Rather, he seems to leave the lavish touches to his bullet patterns and stage backgrounds, which I think makes a lot more sense to make pretty than an object that's like 15x15 pixels or however small sprites are.

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #315 on: June 01, 2013, 11:19:41 PM »
Basically ZUN should clean up everything and give them more detail.
This is something I've been curious about myself. Normally, when you make a game supporting multiple resolutions and you don't want to create a spritesheet per supported resolution, you create your sprites at the largest res and scale them down. The other way around (sprites made for smallest resolution, scaled up for larger ones) means the texture has to be stretched - it looks blurry if filtering is used, pixelated otherwise.

I'm not sure why ZUN offered these options. I can't run the highest res but the second-highest looks and plays the exact same (resolution-independant movement and properly scaled sprites to retain the exact same feel and mechanics). It's just a little blurrier than 640x480. :) It doesn't feel like ZUN done anything more than merely "support" these resolutions. Although, given that this is a demo, maybe we can assume ZUN has only worked on the lower-res version of the graphics and isn't showing off the full potential of the larger resolutions yet?

(Fake ninja edit: I suppose some modern video hardware may have started dropping support for 640x480, so maybe it's to offer alternatives?)


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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #316 on: June 02, 2013, 12:12:04 AM »
the first thing he really needs to fix is the stage 2 background

not sure what the fuck he did with that but it chugs

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #317 on: June 02, 2013, 12:18:06 AM »
the first thing he really needs to fix is the stage 2 background

not sure what the fuck he did with that but it chugs

If by "chugs" you mean "is what lags the game more than anything else," than yeah, it chugs. Interestingly, though, the only part that really lags for me is midboss Sekibanki, unless I'm in 1/2 FPS mode. Especially the nonspell.
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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #318 on: June 02, 2013, 12:59:12 AM »
Likewise for me. That stage is the make-or-break point for me.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #319 on: June 02, 2013, 04:59:07 AM »
Just played for the first time and boy is it great to play a game other then IN. Also, I went straight to Normal mode. I still had to use 1 continue on my second try but I think I can do it with a little more practice. Depending on what features are in the final game (besides spell practice which is the big plus), I could see this replacing IN as my favorite game. Actually do we know if there will be things like unlockable spell cards?
My stage 2 didn't lag, but I'm also playing on windows, so that may not be relevant.
I noticed that when switching between shot types, where Sakuya's arm disappears, some pixels from the arm are left over... that's just weird.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 05:01:00 AM by Imosa »

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #320 on: June 02, 2013, 08:08:24 AM »


Possible evidence that Overdrive spells return (if it isn't just leftover from TD)? I wouldn't be surprised, anyway. Both games so far with spell practice have had an additional set of above-Lunatic spellcards.

(Cheat Engine used for the screenshot. Difficulty is at 004f15d4, set it to 5 and Esc-R. 4 gives you Extra difficulty like usual. Both are as glitchy as in TD. The game didn't give me any Overdrive-exclusive spells like TD did though. Presumably there aren't any in the demo.)

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #321 on: June 02, 2013, 10:40:25 AM »
I find it funny that sprites looks better if I play it fullscreen in 640x480 than 1280x960. Well, any other graphics (HUD, menu etc) is better in higher resolution but it's not like I pay any attention to it during playing (unlike sprites). And I have a feeling that it plays smoother in low-res.
Anyway, I guess such kind of things are expected from alpha versions. I hope ZUN will fix lags in stage 2 and implement real hi-res support.
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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #322 on: June 02, 2013, 12:03:00 PM »
Ooh nice. Wakasagihime's last spell probably is her overdrive (and damn that'll be a pretty fun overdrive). I'd assume this one is Sekibanki's. As for Kagerou, all of them are already pretty damn challenging, though they probably have about the same overdrive potential

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #323 on: June 02, 2013, 03:32:09 PM »
I think some one has posted this idea, but I think one of possible bosses in DDC might be a hobgoblin. Considering how ZUN likes to foreshadow stuff (Night Parade appearing in FS and then brought back in HM), the appearance of them in WaHH would easily mean an appearance of one of them as a proper character.

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #324 on: June 02, 2013, 03:58:32 PM »
I think some one has posted this idea, but I think one of possible bosses in DDC might be a hobgoblin. Considering how ZUN likes to foreshadow stuff (Night Parade appearing in FS and then brought back in HM), the appearance of them in WaHH would easily mean an appearance of one of them as a proper character.
Where else does ZUN like to foreshadow?

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #325 on: June 02, 2013, 05:17:59 PM »
Where else does ZUN like to foreshadow?
To give some example, think about the "Unidentified" portion of PMiSS. In it had kappa, Dragon God, celestial, hermit, Eight Million Gods and Divine Spirits. Then came Nitori, Tenshi, Kasen and multiple gods. Heck, since hobgoblins are one of few youkais in Gensokyo to not have notable member, I find it rather likeable hobgoblin might appear in this game.

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #326 on: June 02, 2013, 06:04:55 PM »
Possible evidence that Overdrive spells return (if it isn't just leftover from TD)?
ZUN is notorious for building his games literally on top of his older ones and leaving in legacy code and settings. He's done the exact same thing with Imperishable Night, for instance. And MoF's hint system still has a LOT of usable-but-unused code up to at least UFO, possible TD. Given his development pattern, one would expect to find the code for overdrive mode intact in DDC - it isn't evidence of anything though. ;)

Personally I'm hoping for something unique. IN gave its bosses (and even playable characters) unique spellcards that had to be unlocked by meeting certain in-game objectives. TD gave its bosses an upgraded version of one of their existing spellcards in exchange for unlocking all other difficulties for said spellcard. There's clearly still plenty to explore in a system like this and I doubt ZUN's creativity is anywhere near about to run out or that he'd be satisfied with simply reusing the exact same system as in a previous game. :)

----

Quick little aside - I just noticed the current translation patch for the demo seems to auto-update itself whenever run (which is pretty neat!). The translation for Kagerou's defeat dialog in Reimu A's route now uses the wiki's "because I get hairy" translation rather than using the original "fur getting matted" one. Gotta say, I liked their original take on it better though. ^^;
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 07:26:20 PM by EthanSilver »


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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #327 on: June 02, 2013, 08:54:17 PM »
Quote
Quick little aside - I just noticed the current translation patch for the demo seems to auto-update itself whenever run (which is pretty neat!). The translation for Kagerou's defeat dialog in Reimu A's route now uses the wiki's "because I get hairy" translation rather than using the original "fur getting matted" one. Gotta say, I liked their original take on it better though. ^^;

Why, that's a new one. There is already a Translation Patch?
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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #328 on: June 02, 2013, 09:17:24 PM »
There is a JavaScript patch which updates itself.
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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #329 on: June 03, 2013, 01:04:02 AM »
There is a JavaScript patch which updates itself.

The one for IN has super small text, I'll stick to the regular ones. But that's not the case for DDC.