Author Topic: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)  (Read 433097 times)

Sahgren

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #780 on: August 01, 2013, 07:25:08 AM »
I've heard that as well. Seems like a tad much to give her given everything else that shottype has.

Drake

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #781 on: August 01, 2013, 08:34:50 AM »
Bosses no, but as I said, it slows down enemies. When the shots hit an enemy, they slow down or stop moving and they stop shooting bullets.

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #782 on: August 01, 2013, 08:46:13 AM »
I've found that very easy to notice with the stage 3 big fairies that shoot those blue bullets which explode.  If you shoot them with SakuyaA they basically slow down to the point they don't shoot.

Serela

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #783 on: August 01, 2013, 03:29:47 PM »
That helps make up for "ugh stop piling all your knives onto two popcorn fairies sakuyaA"

She's so good on bosses still, though. Especially the third one >_> High damage -and- homing? Yes please. Plus dat bomb
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 03:37:02 PM by Serela »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Zil

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #784 on: August 01, 2013, 03:38:03 PM »
Bosses no, but as I said, it slows down enemies. When the shots hit an enemy, they slow down or stop moving and they stop shooting bullets.
I'm pretty sure the bosses are actually effected. I don't think it slows down the bullets, but it seems to effect the rate at which they appear. I recall having an easier time supergrazing the mermaid's first spell with SakuyaA, seemingly because my shots slowed it down. I could be mistaken though. In fact, I'll double check.

edit: I guess I was wrong. huh

Either way SakuyaA is ridiculous.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 04:27:43 PM by Zil »

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #785 on: August 01, 2013, 04:47:11 PM »
To avoid Sakuya A piling knives on a minor fairy, toggle Shift. Does wonders for me.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Drake

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #786 on: August 01, 2013, 10:32:13 PM »
I recall having an easier time supergrazing the mermaid's first spell with SakuyaA, seemingly because my shots slowed it down.
You probably just noticed how the pattern has a sort of disjointed acceleration when unfolding and mistook it for SakuyaA powers.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #787 on: August 02, 2013, 12:58:14 AM »
I also thought maybe SakuyaA had some effect on bosses, seeing how Kagerou erases her own bullets when she dashes through them.

Especially, I noticed on her last spellcard on lunatic, she sometimes cancels one whole ring of purple bullets she just shot in a corner when SakuyaA is used, while I never noticed that happening with other characters.

But I didnt really study that point, that's just over a few runs. Did anyone else noticed that thing with SakuyaA or another character ?

Then again I'd favor the idea that her shot has no effect on bosses, seeing how weird it would for ZUN to manage the balance with any changes in patterns an effect would cause.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 01:10:53 AM by Ginko »

Fumi

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #788 on: August 02, 2013, 02:37:34 AM »
From what I read but haven't tested is the fact that SakuyaA does not slows down bosses but instead she slows down the counter.
I only read it but I have yet to test if it's true.

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #789 on: August 02, 2013, 03:18:10 AM »
I have never played as Sakuya A but I will give it a try to find out about this theory.
Touhou 14 is coming out soon. About 3 more weeks.
Currently a normal player

Formless God

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #790 on: August 02, 2013, 03:31:07 AM »
More like one and a half

Helepolis

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #791 on: August 02, 2013, 06:30:24 AM »
Touhou 14 is coming out soon. About 3 more weeks.
You know, the thing is released in next week's Comiket, not three weeks.

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #792 on: August 02, 2013, 07:14:20 AM »
Wasn't thinking straight at the time. Thought Comiket was somewhere in the 20ths of August.
But, that just makes it sooner. Get ready to have all your grants either come true, come close, or miss by so much.
Currently a normal player

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #793 on: August 02, 2013, 08:52:32 AM »
I could be wrong but I think SakuyaA also slows Sekibanki's head down. 

(For some reason I keep thinking of the "my name is Hong Meiling" video whenever I see so many knives stuck on her head.  Must be the red hair.)

SatorKoi57

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #794 on: August 02, 2013, 12:55:43 PM »
But the main question is, is SakuyaA broken or not?
Those it need to be nerfed in any way?
Watch as I sneak up behind this forum!

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #795 on: August 02, 2013, 04:49:00 PM »
Broken? No, I don't think so. I think people are maybe a little quick to use that word. 

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Drake

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #796 on: August 02, 2013, 10:54:00 PM »
SakuyaA's focus shot is cool, but much too powerful for the utility it gives you. Homing, enemy slowdown, explosion damage? This shouldn't be nearly as strong as it is. On the other hand, her unfocus shot you might as well never use because of how overwhelmingly better her focus shot is.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #797 on: August 02, 2013, 11:16:20 PM »
Totally agree. But making the most of the focus shot can get a little tough; toggling Shift to home in on what you actually want to hit. The unfocused has a decent spreadshot at full power, but you have to be at least midscreen for it to be very effective. That's what's weird about SakuyaA, to me - stages are harder than bosses. For me, at least.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Zil

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #798 on: August 03, 2013, 01:50:56 AM »
She's not so overpowered in stages, from what I can see. It's mainly against bosses, where the idea of homing + high power is kind of absurd, especially considering how Kagerou tends to be hard to stay under. She's not "broken," yes, but she should probably do less damage.

I'll admit I'm kind of disappointed with the shots in this game. Homing types are annoying by default, especially when it's infallible superhoming. Everything else is just kind of a narrow forward beam. MarisaA seems like the most interesting, if only because it's a fucking flamethrower, and the bomb seems less abusable than others.

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #799 on: August 03, 2013, 02:02:16 AM »
I don't know about the rest of you guys but I'm just in love with SakuyaA. She makes it possible for even bad players like me to feel that are doing good sometimes. :)

And the bomb is sick fun on the stages. Pop one and go PoC like mad without risking death!

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #800 on: August 03, 2013, 02:06:16 AM »
The relative stage difficulty of SakuyaA is what tips things away from Way Too Powerful for me, both for survival and scoring, unfocused or focused. Boss fights though, yes, they are cake. Shame about that.

The bomb is interesting, though, with the bonus from not taking the "cherry bonus" thingy. And you still get the autocollect.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #801 on: August 03, 2013, 02:41:23 AM »
Boss fights though, yes, they are cake. Shame about that.

Pls try Lunatic Kagerou just one time, creditfeed if you need to, and see if you still believe that.

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #802 on: August 03, 2013, 02:54:37 AM »
I do mean compared to stages, but I'll take your word for it where Lunatic is concerned!

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #803 on: August 03, 2013, 07:06:34 AM »
Please, stop saying these ridiculous things about MarisaB and SakuyaA. MarisaB bomb can be helpful for massive collecting only on Lunatic, sometimes on Hard. On Normal it's pretty useless for it. And it's not need to be nerfed. C'mon, think about less skilled players! This bomb can be very useful for them!
Then SakuyaA... No, she is NOT broken and her slowdown is a feature. Look, she is a Yuuka in this game with her sadistic knives! Maybe you think that her knives are OP, but again they are useful, especially for Kagerou and all Lunatic stages/bosses. So don't say bad things about her.
Of course, it's just my opinion, but hey, we need some diversity sometimes, don't we? I mean, we have characters this strength not every game.
As for game cover. I really hope that this girl is Extra boss, not Stage 6. Please, ZUN!
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 07:08:41 AM by Rizado »

BT

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #804 on: August 03, 2013, 07:51:15 AM »
Flaws that apply to Lunatic apply also to Normal and whatever else, so you have no point there. SakuyaA kills boss patterns way too fast and effortlessly. MarisaB turns any boss pattern into free resource farming.

Drake

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #805 on: August 03, 2013, 08:04:16 AM »
Er, I'm thinking about players of all skill levels. It just becomes more apparent how powerful those shot types are when on Lunatic, since it's the one with the most bullets. I think instead you're looking too far into what I said and are just thinking "oh no! he wants my favorite types nerfed!". Even if that wasn't the case, if you want to ignore the existing problems on higher difficulties for the sake of Normal, you're being a hypocrite. Think about the more skilled players.

Have I said how MarisaB should be nerfed? Would you like to know? Put a cap on the number of power items you can retrieve per bomb. Limiting you to only be able to get two pieces out of each bomb would mean you get a maximum of six pieces per life, one of them being a life piece. With this, you couldn't spam bombs for free lives, nor bombs. Are lower difficulties affected by this? No. Additionally, I would let the bomb run out sooner than it does. Currently it takes about nine seconds to vanish, and during that whole period you can shotgun while invincible. Limit it to less time and it's less abuseable. Does this affect lower difficulties? Yes, but the problem exists on all of them.

As for SakuyaA, limit the range of its homing, soften how much slower the enemies get, and nerf its explosion damage. Changing how slow the enemies get will vastly affect Lunatic, but if the enemy you're hitting doesn't shoot many bullets to begin with (i.e. lower difficulties), then it isn't as big of a deal slowing them down in the first place. She doesn't need a huge nerf, but it's apparent her focused shot is overpowered. Her unfocused shot on the other hand needs buffing. The fact that you say "it's useful!" for both shot types means either you can't see how powerful they are, or you don't care and just want your personal favorites to stay as powerful as they are.

Seriously, jeez, it's a critique of how the shot types are balanced. ZUN's shot type balancing does need work in basically every game to some extent, and in particular he has bigger balancing problems with gimmicky characters. Balancing the shot types out gives you more diversity in that people can actually use a multitude of shot types and not just using one or two types because they're just better. Do you acknowledge how overpowered ReimuA was in SA? The other characters might as well not exist if your goal is just to win. Is that diversity? No.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 08:09:02 AM by Drake »

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

PhantomSong

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #806 on: August 03, 2013, 08:51:29 AM »
Please, stop saying these ridiculous things about MarisaB and SakuyaA. MarisaB bomb can be helpful for massive collecting only on Lunatic, sometimes on Hard. On Normal it's pretty useless for it. And it's not need to be nerfed. C'mon, think about less skilled players! This bomb can be very useful for them!

MarisaB bomb; On Normal it's pretty useless for it.
What the hell are you talking about?
EH-HEM

Marisa B's bomb is too overpowered no matter the difficulty. With the ability to get a lot of power items when it just TOUCHES a bullet and the length it lasts to where you can constantly pound the enemy IS WAY TOO OVERPOWERED. As semi-demonstrated in this video.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 08:53:03 AM by PhantomSong »

BT

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #807 on: August 03, 2013, 09:14:34 AM »
Have I said how MarisaB should be nerfed? Would you like to know? Put a cap on the number of power items you can retrieve per bomb. Limiting you to only be able to get two pieces out of each bomb would mean you get a maximum of six pieces per life, one of them being a life piece. With this, you couldn't spam bombs for free lives, nor bombs. Are lower difficulties affected by this? No. Additionally, I would let the bomb run out sooner than it does. Currently it takes about nine seconds to vanish, and during that whole period you can shotgun while invincible. Limit it to less time and it's less abuseable. Does this affect lower difficulties? Yes, but the problem exists on all of them.
What about making it so you can't hide inside your bomb for like 4 full seconds after use? Make it so bullets don't actually cancel when they come into contact with it and it's suddenly much harder to PoC and definitely harder to trivialize the patterns.

CyberAngel

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #808 on: August 03, 2013, 09:36:20 AM »
What about making it so you can't hide inside your bomb for like 4 full seconds after use? Make it so bullets don't actually cancel when they come into contact with it and it's suddenly much harder to PoC and definitely harder to trivialize the patterns.

Yeah, and make the bomb lose its main point. Though I agree lower duration and faster movement would balance things out.

...Am I the only one who find all this balance talk funny, especially given that full game is finished already?

7TC7

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #809 on: August 03, 2013, 09:41:30 AM »
I like how you are getting on each others necks by discussing how to nerf shottypes while it's all up to ZUNs whims anyways. I have the strange feeling he won't change much on the shottypes if he didn't change them much or at all between the first demo and the web-demo. (did he actually ever majorly change a shottype between demo and full game?)
It's obvious that many touhou-shottypes, if you know about there strange properties, can break a game but there is no one telling you to use these strange properties. If you are just playing normally and not abusing some things, it doesn't really matter, right?
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