東方輝針城 ～ Double Dealing Character

[BT]

Then there's also the question of taste - I mean, I understand things like autofire in PoDD (keyboards really are unsuitable for the game without it), but I don't see the justification behind stripping the stage 5 boss of its difficulty here. It's safe to say at this point that the flip cards are doable - and they add another layer of difficulty, as you'll never be as adept at reverse-controlling as you are with regular controls.

[Shimatora]

I oppose it also. The only problem is you can't tell if someone is doing it or not. All anyone can do is say "We are opposed to any use of key remapping to fix the reversed controls" and hope no one does it. It's pretty much undetectable, unlike TAS runs a lot of the time. Basically the rule would be unenforceable.

[Zil]

I admit that the idea of bypassing her effects kinda reeks, yes, but I also feel that trying to forbid it is overreaching. I think the player is entitled to a certain degree of freedom with the kind of input method he uses, and the kind of restriction you're trying to put into place with this boss a bit too nebulous. Obviously, there have never been rules on which buttons you're allowed to use, and certainly you can't just suddenly make some rule about only using arrow keys or whatever. So what you're ultimately demanding of the player is that he use buttons that "confuse" him. Whatever button he's "used to" using for left, he now has to use for right, etc. And that's too bizarre  in my opinion.

Like, for example, suppose I've never used a d-pad before, and I suddenly decide that I'd be better off against Seiga's first spell with a d-pad instead of a keyboard. Since I've no past experience with the thing, it doesn't matter what I map the buttons too; I'm not "used to" any of them doing any particular thing. At the same time, I've avoiding the entire process of having "unlearn" the controls I've been using all along. Then maybe I decide to use an arcade stick for her third spell. Would all of that be against the rules then? And if so, why? I'm not remapping my controls at all, just changing the input device. And if that's forbidden, is it forbidden elsewhere? Can I not use a pad for PCB but suddenly switch to keyboard when I'm doing a supergraze? It's the same thing, as I see it.

So my point is that any kind of rule you come up with is going to depend things that are hard to define. How do you quantify experience? How do you quantify confusion? And on top of all of that there's the fact that cheating would be completely undetectable anyway.

[BT]

I don't think that argument works. You say that this restriction restricts any kind of control alteration but I've never said such a thing.

As with anything like this, things need to be looked at case-by-case. Would you drool hatred over someone using both a gamepad and a keyboard for PCB scoring? Would that make you feel cheated? Would it feel unfair? Maybe a bit, but it's probably not just significant enough. I argue that, in this case, it IS significant enough. That's about it. (and I understand why people would think that it isn't enough - we'd need to see what the overall opinion is... maybe we'll get our answer from the eastern community after a while)

(stray comment: of course it could be that that example doesn't work and using both a gamepad and a keyboard is pretty much cheating :v I wouldn't know)

[ARF]

I think it is overkill to prepare something like this to cheese a certain part of the game, but if people are open about it it's alright, somehow. Although it comes close to being like macro stuff in my mind, which is obviously a tool-assist.

[Zil]

I don't think that argument works. You say that this restriction restricts any kind of control alteration but I've never said such a thing.

My point is more that the situation isn't black and white enough. If we were to make a rule for this scoreboard, how would we phrase it? If you make it too general, then it's not clear what falls within the restriction or not. If you make it too precise, then there may be loop holes.

I'm also interested to see what the Japanese make of the situation.

[BT]

Doesn't have to be an all-encompassing rule.

Rule 17: don't cheese Seija you bullies

I don't know how one would smartass their way out of "play this part while properly flipped".

Though now I'm interested - is there a proper rules list at all for WRs?

[touhoumaniac]

The key remapping breaks stage5 boss in my opinion.

Savestates, sprite editing, and key remapping can, without much effort from the player to conceal them, stay undetectable.

I oppose it also. The only problem is you can't tell if someone is doing it or not. All anyone can do is say "We are opposed to any use of key remapping to fix the reversed controls" and hope no one does it. It's pretty much undetectable, unlike TAS runs a lot of the time. Basically the rule would be unenforceable.

Unenforceability shouldn't be a problem. Savestates have always been there. Or perhaps savestate unenforceability is also a problem?



I consider all sprite editing OK because MoF has built in sprite editing of certain kind and also EoSD hitbox patch seems accepted mostly. Attaching a mark to a moving sprite is not possible in MoF via built in tools however. PoC line and various other stationary things can be marked though.

Whatever is decided i'll agree because i'm ok with any rules in this case.

Also separate scoreboards can always be compiled by anyone for any rule set.

[Mero]

Lunatic - MarisaB
Mero - 753,877,220 - C - 0.3% - Replay

I replaced the attachment on my previous post with the replay link, I couldn't upload it properly last night (maybe the board was having some maintenance done?), anyway it's up now

[Noobzor]

Normal - SakuyaB
Noobzor - 915,994,210 - C - 0.03% - Replay

I hate Sukuna.

[Karisa]

I consider all sprite editing OK because MoF has built in sprite editing of certain kind and also EoSD hitbox patch seems accepted mostly.

EoSD hitbox patch isn't allowed in the MotK scoreboard though (however, the retexture patch is, and that's also sprite editing). Though if I recall correctly it's generally agreed that the hitbox patch doesn't help experienced players much, if at all.

As for my own opinion on remapping controls, I wouldn't do it myself unless it's clearly determined that most players accept it (which appears to be the case for the earlier example of autofire).

---

Easy - MarisaB
Karisa - 706,849,910 - C - 0.0% - Replay

And that makes 5.

I think I'm finally learning how to exploit MarisaB's bomb. Though I had too many resources by stage 6, so I probably should have spent more on Kagerou's or Yatsuhashi's nonspells, or maybe the stage 4 lasers, despite them not being worth much. Finished with 71,350 PIV.

[Zengeku]

Pls don't swap your controls while playing for competitive submissions you toads.

It's been said well before;

When I play I never pause, if you wants play againts me please don't pause.
When I get a score higher than yours I post pictures, if you wants play againts me please post a picture when you beat me.
When I get a score higher than yours I post replays, if you wants play againts me please post a replay when you beat me.
When I play against Seija, I don't remap controls for that occasion alone, if you wants play againts me please don't remap controls for that occasion alone.
This is called respect, I respect you and you respect me.
I like shmups and shmups is serious business to me, no reputation and no unconditional belief, just proof like a respect sign.
If you can't understand this fuck you and avoid post scores in the same table that me.

Let's all just face this game in a spiritual way hmmm kay?

[Karisa]

Easy - ReimuB
Karisa - 664,740,750 - C - 0.0% - Replay

Finished 8/3, 70,530 PIV.

I wonder what it'd take to reach 700m with ReimuB...

[Makai Butterfly]

Easy - SakuyaA
Makai - 502,963,770 - C - 0.0% - Replay 06

Easy - SakuyaB
Makai - 584,040,630 - C - 0.0% - Replay

Easy - SakuyaB
Makai - 650,715,560 - C - 0.0% - Replay 24

Sakuya B is a scoring beast!  I finished the run above with over 95,000 PIV simply through bombspam of stage 2 nonspells and a bit of grazing early on.  I'm certainly no score-runner mechanically, but this shottype makes it easy.

[Karisa]

@Makai: Just thought I'd point out, those replay links aren't actually functional. Remember to include the link in the url tag (you can get it by right-clicking on the attachment after posting, and edit it in).

Easy - SakuyaA
Karisa - 757,390,250 - C - 0.0% - Replay - Screenshot

Continuing with the v1.00b retakes, here's an 11m improvement over my previous score. Still MarisaA and SakuyaB remaining.

Normal - ReimuA
Karisa - 646,570,800 - C - 0.0% - Replay

Normal test run, nothing special.

[Karisa]

Easy - SakuyaB
Karisa - 1,009,013,510 - C - 0.1% - Replay - Screenshot



---

Normal - ReimuA
Karisa - 748,919,350 - C - 0.0% - Replay

I think Benben might actually be more difficult than Shinmyoumaru.

[Shimatora]

Easy - MarisaA
S-TORA - 703,277,710 - C - 0.05% - Replay Screenshot

[Mesarthim]

Lunatic - ReimuA
Mesarthim - 529,285,660 - C - 0.0% - Replay

How's them apples! I did horrible on the final boss after the first card but I even caught the stage 5 boss vertical flip, WITHOUT using a macro (since that is a matter of heavy debate, but I don't like using those methods and disapprove).

[Karisa]

Normal - ReimuB
Karisa - 700,027,640 - C - 0.0% - Replay

Various silly deaths, but I recovered with a perfect Shinmyoumaru, barely reaching 700m Normal.

Extra - SakuyaA
Karisa - 511,279,030 - C - 0.1% - Replay

Oh look, a survival capture? Thanks to whoever recommended dodging at the bottom rather than in the middle (sorry, I forgot).

Extra - ReimuA
Karisa - 578,786,120 - C - 0.0% - Replay

Slightly better survival than last time.

Easy - ReimuA
Karisa - 729,446,430 - C - 0.0% - Replay - Screenshot

Finished 8/5 with 74,310 PIV. Meaning it was essentially the same as my last run, except for capturing that one spell I failed for its 9m bonus.

[Soul Devour]

Hard - ReimuA

Soul Devour - 508,211,410 - C - 0.0% - Replay

Meh. I'm not too good at this whole scoring thing. I need to get better at consistent captures first to really get the ball rolling.

Hard - ReimuA

Soul - 616,303,040 - C - 0.0% - Replay

What's funny is that this comes after I choked a run horribly earlier today. I actually did beat my old high score on that run but I forgot to save it, although I was streaming. Debated whether I was gonna post the highlight of it but since this run happened I didn't need to! Had some badness on Stage 5 and failed Sukuna's final card. I think if I didn't screw up at those points I could have hit 700 million. There's other issues I had but I was pretty satisfied with this run.

[Noobzor]

Normal - SakuyaB
Noobzor - 1,041,853,810 - C - 0.09% - Replay

Yes, 1 billion goal achieved!
Less PIV and more lives than usual, which kinda surprised me, since I usually get to stage 6 with only 2 or 3 lives. and this time I had 7.

[Karisa]

Easy - ReimuB
Karisa - 694,393,530 - C - 0.0% - Replay - Screenshot

So ReimuB can bomb Sekibanki's 2nd for graze (gaining about 6000 PIV). I never knew that before today. Getting closer to 700m 6/6...

I guess I should redo my ReimuA run to include bombing Sekibanki's 2nd as well.

Easy - ReimuA
Karisa - 769,868,750 - C - 0.0% - Replay - Screenshot

A 40 million improvement over my previous score. Seriously, 40 million. I had no idea bombing Sekibanki's 2nd would be this profitable.

If 5400 extra graze in stage 2 is worth 40 million, then how much is stalling various other nonspells for graze (even if it's only a few hundred) worth? Probably more than I thought. It might even be worth stalling additional spells for graze. If capturing Sekibanki's final at the last second costs 2.5m bonus but gains 450 graze over capturing it normally... I'd need to do more testing for that.

[touhoumaniac]

EDIT:
Wrong thread...

[Karisa]

Easy - ReimuB
Karisa - 717,721,450 - C - 0.0% - Replay - Screenshot

ReimuB gaining as much PIV as ReimuA? That was unexpected.

Easy - MarisaA
Karisa - 733,851,240 - C - 0.0% - Replay - Screenshot

Failed one of Kagerou's spells, decided to play it out for practice, and it was 24m higher than my previous score. Of course.

MarisaA can't bomb-graze Sekibanki's 2nd, so I'm actually not sure where the improvement came from. I was aiming for 715m or so.

Easy - SakuyaA
Karisa - 790,278,180 - C - 0.0% - Replay

First clear with the new SakuyaA trick. Several major point losses (a missed PoC on stage 4 where I then tried to bomb but was out of bombs, a death to Benben's final, and a death to the start of stage 5 that prevented reaching 4 power for midboss Seija). 800m is very close.

Since I forgot the screenshot, finished 8/4 with 90,930 PIV if anyone's curious. Since I reached the life cap despite those accidental deaths, I guess I should be using more bombs for PIV.

Easy - SakuyaA
Karisa - 797,681,620 - C - 0.0% - Replay - Screenshot

This run turned out nicely, until I lost a 13m bonus by dying to Seija's 2nd. Stage 2 in particular had a post-midboss 2.0 that I almost never get with SakuyaA. Getting closer...

I think a suicide to bomb stage 5 Seija's final nonspell (as I did here after the death) is probably not worth it on Easy, by the way. It only gains around 2m from stage 6 point items (there are the equivalent of around 1350 point items, according to some Cheat Engine testing I did yesterday), while the power loss from dying probably costs more from spell bonuses and power item value.

Easy - SakuyaA
Karisa - 803,526,930 - C - 0.0% - Replay - Screenshot

800 million non-SakuyaB Easy!

The run still had some mistakes though, notably some dropped items on stage 4, and a silly death to Seija in stage 6 (though I had a life to spare there so it didn't affect the clear bonus). I can definitely reach 810m with this route.

I took this run as an opportunity to experiment with grazing Benben's lasers (as well as bombing them of course). It worked better than I thought, so I'll need to do that the entire time next time.

[Noobzor]

Normal - SakuyaB
Noobzor - 1,151,914,070 - C - 0.08% - Replay - Screenshot

Yay !

[ARF]

Extra - MarisaB
ARF -  1,010,713,440 - C - 0.1% - Replay

I'm quite happy with my stage route, even if some parts didn't go as intended (and even though the WR has a better route). Anyways, getting this kind of score with 4 failed spells is still pretty cool in itself I guess.

[chirpy13]

Easy - ReimuA
Chirpy13 - 586,670,590 - C - 0.2% - Replay (No Bomb)

First attempt at scoring.  Pretty much blind on what to do after stage 3 aside from the two lunatic credits I tried last night.  Finished one piece from max lives because of the stage 5 final.  That boss is some serious bullshit...  Anyway, aside from her I think I can bring myself to like this game, at least on Easy.  ReimuA no bomb is really exciting.  I'll have to look into replays later or something.

[Noobzor]

Normal - SakuyaB
Noobzor - 1,175,027,030 - C - 0.05% - Replay

Without those survival and last spell fails, this run would have hit at least 1.225b :ohdear:

[ark]

Update checkpoint.

[Karisa]

Easy - ReimuA
Karisa - 794,541,500 - C - 0.0% - Replay - Screenshot

Yay for gohei chaining.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTKi9zlFynM

Easy - SakuyaB
Karisa - 1,035,101,770 - C - 0.0% - Replay - Screenshot