Author Topic: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?  (Read 391483 times)

LadyScarlet

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #120 on: June 26, 2013, 05:24:50 PM »
Gah, so tired... I'll try to sound as coherent as I can muster...
which font are you using in this one?

The items you are not sure about are "Fast Spirit Recovery" and "2P Behavior". The options for "2P Behavior" are: "Normal", "Move Up", "Move Down", "Com" and "2P Control". Also, all those options you wrote as "On/Off" are better as "Yes/No", and the last option for "Guard" is "Only Once". (You can also look up the menu translations at http://shinkirou.koumakan.jp.)

For "Fast Spirit Recovery", you probably have to squeeze the letters, and shorten it to something like "Fast Spirit Regen./Recov."

Also note two differences between your work and the original:


1. In the original, there is a relatively constant cutoff point for the item names, so there is a space between "Recovery" and "KeyF4", while the items below the hotkey names also don't exceed this cutoff point. This looks nicer.

2. You have not edited the difficulty options, so they are now in a different font from your whole menu.
*prepares for death* ...Times New Roman. What? It resembled the original!
Only Once wouldn't fit in there. Maybe I should try shortening the spacing like you suggest. I'll get to work on editing it.
My Youtube Channel. I mostly upload Hisoutensoku videos.

cuc

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #121 on: June 27, 2013, 01:03:09 AM »
Oh, there's nothing wrong with Times New Roman. I only saw a few advantages with Mercury Text (it's Ciel who first recommended it):

1. Since it comes with Windows and OS X systems, Times New Roman is over-exposed to PC users, too "vanilla". And Mercury Text is arguably prettier.

2. There are variations (4 grades, small caps...) in the Mercury Text family, including their sibling designed for larger display Mercury Display, allowing for greater flexibility. Since they will be replacing the game's main font, used in places large and small, these variations are important. I can foresee we using small caps a lot for the game.

Only Once wouldn't fit in there.
Judging from the .PNG file, the actual allowed space is quite large. And because "Only Once" is the last option, we don't have to worry about the spacing between it and the next option. Same case with "2P Control", which you fit in without problem.

OTOH, "Move Down" would be much wider than "Only Once". For the sake of both spacing and consistency with "Move Up", perhaps you need to either condense both "Move Up" and "Move Down", or shortened "Move Down" to "Move Dn."

Quote
Also, all those options you wrote as "On/Off" are better as "Yes/No".
I'm doubting myself here. Which is better, "Yes/No/Random/Only Once" or "On/Off/Random/Only Once"?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 01:28:07 AM by cuc »
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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #122 on: June 27, 2013, 05:54:09 AM »
Quote
I'm doubting myself here. Which is better, "Yes/No/Random/Only Once" or "On/Off/Random/Only Once"?

Yes/No/Random/Once would be understandable. In the context of Guard, people can usually make the logical leap that it means the AI will either start guarding after 1 hit or guard for only 1 hit.

cuc

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #123 on: July 01, 2013, 10:15:32 AM »
@Starswordx:
OK, "Yes/No/Random/Once" then it is.


More thoughts on the font issue:

1. For the game's main "functional" font (help text, BGM name, player character name...), I considered using the Japanese font family Motoya Aporo, as the in-game font is derived from them. However they are still not the same as the original, and have an obvious problem: the small letters are too stumpy.


In conclusion, we really should use the URW Imperial family - it's in the same general style, and good-looking (download).

2. For the game's main "stylish" font (character titles, match prompts, menu options...), previously I recommended using Mercury Text/Mercury Display, instead of Times New Roman. But one thing I've always feel uneasy about, is they are still not stylish enough, and not thin enough, compared to the original font.

So, I'm thinking about the possibility of using an "older" style font, such as Garamond or Centaur, perhaps only for places where especially large letters are needed, not for menu options. You should already have them on your computers.


OTOH, those fonts may have been overused by romance novel publishers...

@Ciel:
What is the font of the large "Hakurei Shrine" in your last screenshot? If it's Times New Roman, it sure looks nice there.

@Riatre:
Are you still watching this thread? Is it possible to change the dimensions of images being displayed? Without that, those vertical text images such as story mode stage names are impossible to look good.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 10:52:17 AM by cuc »
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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #124 on: July 01, 2013, 10:28:56 AM »
I'm going to throw a few more ideas out there.

Name fonts:


Practice menu (and menus in general) :

The only parts of the menu that were troublesome were the Spirit Recovery and 2P Control options. I don't think 2P Height is the correct way to word it, either; if someone could suggest better wording, that would be great.

I'd like to offer High and Low instead of up and down.

Ciel

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #125 on: July 01, 2013, 11:07:06 AM »
Ahh, unfortunately, it's not Times New Roman, it's a font called Yeseva One, plus a few modifications like skewing it a little.

Ahaha;; I'm kind of working on my own after our discussion back at Skype about... well... you know. 8D; So I'm kind of making an 'unofficial' one on my own since I know that mine cannot pass as official since it's not... consistent...;; *corners*;;;

Here's a bit of what I done so far. (don't kill me)






I really hope there's a way to manipulate the text like center the lines and change the font size. If you use the horizontal text hack, it makes the ending unreadable. (Try it!)




THIS IS QUITE A MOUTHFUL TOO
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 11:09:49 AM by Ciel »

Just some weirdo, move along!

cuc

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #126 on: July 01, 2013, 02:39:35 PM »
OK, here I'll explain what's the big deal about HM's main "stylish" font.

If you are paying attention, you can see one serif font family is used in every prominent place.

From the menus...


To character names...


To match announcements...


It's even the font of the old logo! (the final logo switched to a different serif font)


Why is the game using such a print-style font? Isn't it an unusual choice for a fighting game? For the answer, look at this:
(Click to enlarge)


This is the frontpage of Asahi Shimbun, Japan's most venerable newspaper (well, a clipped article, with the frontpage behind it). Note that Bunbunmaru Shimbun's logo is a parody of its logo.

The font style seen in the content of this newspaper, has been used by all Japanese newspapers for decades. It's called 新聞明朝体 - the News serif style. It's much wider than it's tall, with thinner lines than ordinary print fonts. Now compare with HM's in-game fonts...

By using this type of font, with similar wider-than-tall proportion, HM immediately evokes the sensation of newspapers to the Japanese audience. In HM, the religious war is a broad parody of modern elections, and the use of fonts is another way this is conveyed in the game.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 01:45:12 AM by cuc »
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Ciel

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #127 on: July 01, 2013, 04:08:52 PM »
Ah, remembered you saying that much. The idea of using one single (or maybe two?) fonts...  just... doesn't stick well with me. Maybe different weight might work with the fonts, but they wouldn't look that great in the end...;; I'm trying to add a little bit  while staying loyal to the original. Too thin, and it wouldn't look nice, despite being the same with the original. Too thick, and it wouldn't look like it's from the game anymore. What may work in Japanese may not work in the English side. But who am I to complain? ^_^;

Although, looking back, maybe I should rework on the newspaper design and make it all bold if it's going by that direction. Hmm. D:

Just some weirdo, move along!

Quwanti

  • Pixel stuff
Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #128 on: July 01, 2013, 10:40:47 PM »
Oh snap. I finally know how to package build mode with TexMod. Great, now I can contribute too!
Scrap that. A program called uMod (related to TexMod) does the exact same thing, but can actually change a texture while the game is running.

Anyway, I favour one same font for consistency.

(Also, is there some IRC or something, for easier discussing?)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 01:03:18 AM by Quwanti »

cuc

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #129 on: July 02, 2013, 02:44:29 AM »
The first Asahi sample I posted was not a whole frontpage, but a clipped article layered on top of the frontpage (to show the publishing date of that article). Sorry about that inaccuracy.

Some samples of real life headline styles. Of course, how to handle the in-game newspapers are an entirely separate issue from the game's main UI fonts.

Asahi Shimbun Evening frontpage, reporting on the suicide of Yukio Mishima.


Frontpage of a tech news extra.


Those headline styles are seen in a serious newspaper; the tabloids are much louder. Here's a comparison between frontpages of Asahi Shimbun and Fuji Evening News, Japan's No.1 tabloid:


For sans serif fonts in newspaper headlines, a quick search gets me these 20th century American examples:



I always see the newspaper headlines as a comparatively later goal, since there are nontrivial tasks of translation and rewriting involved. It's better for the headline style to be determined after they are all translated, so we can know what are the limits of headlines (longest, shortest, handling of wordplay, etc).

================

RE: Practice menu (Ciel's work below):


- Is it acceptable to shorten "Fast Spirit Recovery" to "Fast Spirit"/"Faster Spirit"/"Rapid Spirit"? In Ciel's sample, the spacing between "Spirit Recovery" and "KeyF4" is still too narrow. Or are there any better ideas?

- Ciel's other word choices - "2P Movement", "2P Play" and "Tech Direction" are good. Approved.

- It's infeasible to require Practice menu items to all have the same cutoff point as I previous said. English text also looks better when the letters are in the same proportion, unlike in Japanese, where keeping items in a column at the same span may look better.

================

Currently, I'd like someone to help test the following:

- Using an italicized URW Imperial font (download link here, more variations on other pages) for UI help text (all those PNG files named "explain"), and still keeping it as readable as possible. It's always bad form to change italicized text to non-italicized text, but readability is a concern.

- Using Mercury Text for system menus (download link here, more variations on other pages). At least for system menus, Mercury Text is a lot closer in style to the original than Times New Roman.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 12:36:35 PM by cuc »
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cuc

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #130 on: July 02, 2013, 03:43:13 AM »
To everyone: name the fonts you used as much as possible, especially the fonts you are currently showcasing.

Ahh, unfortunately, it's not Times New Roman, it's a font called Yeseva One, plus a few modifications like skewing it a little.


Sorry, when I was asking for your font, I meant the large serif "Random Select" here. You are still using Kokila, the Hindi font for them?

What is your menu font? And what about your character names below lifebars?

So your stage banners are Yeseva One. Hmm...


In terms of stage names:
The Western community translated Chireiden as "Palace of the Earth Spirits", and Shinreibyou as "Divine Spirit Mausoleum". I'm itching to change them to "Palace of Earth Spirits" and "Mausoleum of Divine Spirits"... or change the former to "Earth Spirit Palace".

Proper translation of some stage names:
"Palanquin Ship" -> "Treasure Ship Above the Clouds" (that's really what the original says)
"The Great Youkai Forest" -> "Youkai Tanuki Forest" or "Forest of Youkai Tanuki"
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 05:06:57 AM by cuc »
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Ciel

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #131 on: July 02, 2013, 11:10:14 AM »
Oh snap. I finally know how to package build mode with TexMod. Great, now I can contribute too!
Scrap that. A program called uMod (related to TexMod) does the exact same thing, but can actually change a texture while the game is running.

Anyway, I favour one same font for consistency.

(Also, is there some IRC or something, for easier discussing?)
OOOH NICE, GL. And yeah, I think everyone's getting bothered by the spam-

Sorry, when I was asking for your font, I meant the large serif "Random Select" here. You are still using Kokila, the Hindi font for them?

What is your menu font? And what about your character names below lifebars?
As I said, Yeseva one. 8D Like I said, I did a bit of editing the text myself, making it a bit more italic-ized. Banners are not Yeseva one, they are URWImperialT. ^_^;

Menu font? You mean the Start Menu, right? Shonar Bangla, I'm sure you guys should have it. 8D

And asjhasjf omg the character names below the lifebars were a week or two ago, I had them finalized;; Sorry.

Just my input too here but... keep in mind that the width also plays a part in this. You don't want to make things look too cramped. I tried using Mercury for the system font and...

Let's just say it didn't look too nice when it says  "Fullscreen Resolution". ^_^;

Just some weirdo, move along!

cuc

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #132 on: July 02, 2013, 12:33:51 PM »
And asjhasjf omg the character names below the lifebars were a week or two ago, I had them finalized;; Sorry.
You are saying you forgot which font it is, right?

Oh yes, we need examples of unsuccessful experiments as much as everything else. Please always post those interesting failures, so we can study them.

Please post the failed Mercury Text experiment, specifying exactly what you used in it (Mercury Text G1 Roman?), and these unreadable ending screens, or any other failures you think may have something to learn from, thanks.
I really hope there's a way to manipulate the text like center the lines and change the font size. If you use the horizontal text hack, it makes the ending unreadable. (Try it!)


A NEW TEST:
Using Centaur for system menus?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 01:02:08 PM by cuc »
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Ciel

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #133 on: July 02, 2013, 01:39:39 PM »
You are saying you forgot which font it is, right?

Oh yes, we need examples of unsuccessful experiments as much as everything else. Please always post those interesting failures, so we can study them.
Yeah, sorry...;; And I'm a bit tired so I did a bit of a rush job aha;;;


The black box is the space you are allowed with. The text takes a bit of width on it's own, shown on BG Quality and Fullscreen Resolution, so I have to narrow it to fit in the space. If you're planning to use this font, keep the width in mind. I'll leave LadyScarlet with the design, yes. <3

Although some of the letters in the font look nice, it's the Q which puts me down. XD;; It looks like some kind of fish LOL. Maybe you might want a different font to substitute that one letter.

But yeah, Quwanti is right. ;~; An IRC room would be good.

Just some weirdo, move along!

cuc

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #134 on: July 02, 2013, 02:34:46 PM »
I've finally figured one thing out.

The font used in the old logo is from the Iwata News Mincho family. The fonts used by big newspapers like Asahi and Yomiuri are custom made by Iwata.


The in-game fonts are from the Mainichi News Mincho family. These are made by Morisawa, the other major foundry of newspaper fonts, and used by Mainichi Newspaper.


One interesting fact is Tasofro specifically embellished the kanji 廟 for the stage select screen. (Please ignore the difference between 霊 and 靈 below.)


None of those discoveries are of immediate help, as the English letters in those fonts are simply not as good as dedicated English fonts.

I'm still wondering whether we can use Classical fonts for HM (see this wikipedia article). That's why we need more test results.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 12:42:01 AM by cuc »
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cuc

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #135 on: July 02, 2013, 03:56:30 PM »
@Ciel
Thanks! Judging from your test shot, it might be OK for "Fullscreen Resolution" to exceed the cutoff point a little.


Other config text tweaks based on Ciel's work:

Screen Mode -> Display Mode
Mid -> Med?
Replay Save -> Save Replay

"Always Ask" should be condensed to the same width as "As Spectator" beneath it.

Replay Save (Netplay) -> Save Netplay Replay


What about your horizontal ending test?
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Ciel

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #136 on: July 02, 2013, 04:19:53 PM »
Aha, so that's what the font is. I never did manage to find it. Well, good for you guys, then!

Screen Mode -> Display Mode
Mid -> Med?
Replay Save -> Save Replay

"Always Ask" should be condensed to the same width as "As Spectator" beneath it.

Replay Save (Netplay) -> Save Netplay Replay


What about your horizontal ending test?
Ah, changed the Screen mode to Display ages ago, and I'm basing the Replay Save and some of my other stuff from Soku's translation too. 8D

Ending will be tomorrow since I'm lazy to play the whole game just for the ending, but you could do it too. ^_^; Good luck with your patch!

Just some weirdo, move along!

cuc

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #137 on: July 03, 2013, 12:39:03 AM »
I'm basing the Replay Save and some of my other stuff from Soku's translation too. 8D
Yes, precedents matter in translation, that's why I won't be asking for changes to "SE Volume" and "BGM Volume", since they are written this way in ZUN's games.

Current decision: "Save Replays", "Save Replays (Netplay)", same as the HM wiki.
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LadyScarlet

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #138 on: July 05, 2013, 12:13:33 AM »
@Starswordx:
OK, "Yes/No/Random/Once" then it is.


More thoughts on the font issue:

1. For the game's main "functional" font (help text, BGM name, player character name...), I considered using the Japanese font family Motoya Aporo, as the in-game font is derived from them. However they are still not the same as the original, and have an obvious problem: the small letters are too stumpy.


In conclusion, we really should use the URW Imperial family - it's in the same general style, and good-looking (download).

2. For the game's main "stylish" font (character titles, match prompts, menu options...), previously I recommended using Mercury Text/Mercury Display, instead of Times New Roman. But one thing I've always feel uneasy about, is they are still not stylish enough, and not thin enough, compared to the original font.

So, I'm thinking about the possibility of using an "older" style font, such as Garamond or Centaur, perhaps only for places where especially large letters are needed, not for menu options. You should already have them on your computers.


OTOH, those fonts may have been overused by romance novel publishers...

@Ciel:
What is the font of the large "Hakurei Shrine" in your last screenshot? If it's Times New Roman, it sure looks nice there.

@Riatre:
Are you still watching this thread? Is it possible to change the dimensions of images being displayed? Without that, those vertical text images such as story mode stage names are impossible to look good.
I tried Mercury for character titles, and the text was illegibly, unbearably squished no matter the setting.
Anyway, what do you all think of these?

My Youtube Channel. I mostly upload Hisoutensoku videos.

cuc

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #139 on: July 05, 2013, 10:21:00 AM »
I tried Mercury for character titles, and the text was illegibly, unbearably squished no matter the setting.
My request actually said all vertical text like this are currently not our focus, since it's impossible to make them look good while staying in their original dimensions.

I also said we should prioritize the help text and system menus, before everything else. This way we can produce a quick patch that's immediately helpful to everyone.


With that said, we can, under the presumption that their dimensions and placements can be changed, experiment in photoshop to see how to make them look good.

For character titles...

1. Make them horizontal, running below the characters.

2. Use Mercury Text G1 SC (semicaps) for the character name (Hakurei Reimu), at a larger size, and Mercury Text G1 Roman for character title (Advocate...).
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 11:22:04 AM by cuc »
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LadyScarlet

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #140 on: July 05, 2013, 05:08:42 PM »
Sorry to say, but I don't have Mercury on my computer, and I don't have the budget to shell out $20 a font either, especially when you can only buy them in packs of 9 minimum. :(
My Youtube Channel. I mostly upload Hisoutensoku videos.

Gpop

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #141 on: July 05, 2013, 05:12:38 PM »
Sorry to say, but I don't have Mercury on my computer, and I don't have the budget to shell out $20 a font either, especially when you can only buy them in packs of 9 minimum. :(
http://www.dafont.com/


cuc

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #143 on: July 05, 2013, 10:57:36 PM »
I've given download links to all the needed fonts in my earlier posts when making testing requests.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 11:10:42 PM by cuc »
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cuc

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« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 09:07:48 AM by cuc »
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Quwanti

  • Pixel stuff
Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #145 on: July 07, 2013, 10:13:37 AM »
well that looks good. All menu's are nicely modifies. Nicely done with the character name and titles in the select screen. It doesn't look awkward at all. There are still some inaccuracies, though. Namely in the alignment of some words, some are off  by a few pixels.
Those underlined in blue

Also, it says "equipment select" after you choose the character, but isn't it more like "deck select"? I remember it is always referred as such.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 10:18:29 AM by Quwanti »

Ciel

  • Green-Eyed Jealousy
Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #146 on: July 07, 2013, 12:52:26 PM »
Thanks Quwanti~

If I know right, 装備 literally means "Equipment". I'm no expert though. XD

AND OH MY GOODNESS I THOUGHT I GOT THOSE ALIGNMENT PROBLEMS UGH. >_< I'll try to fix them next patch, thanks! I have been rushing this the whole day just to get things right. D:

About the Normal and hard in the COM difficulty, it's beyond my ability for that. The alignment for that are outside the image files.

Just some weirdo, move along!

cuc

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #147 on: July 07, 2013, 01:43:52 PM »
The name of the option is not the same between the games. It's literally "Deck Construction" デッキ構築 in SWR/Soku, while in HM, it's "Equipment Change" 装備変更, because in SWR the spell cards are randomly drawn from a deck, while in HM they are "equipped" to the 8 slots.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 03:21:15 AM by cuc »
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cuc

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #148 on: July 07, 2013, 02:21:56 PM »
About the Normal and hard in the COM difficulty, it's beyond my ability for that. The alignment for that are outside the image files.
It's time to facepalm and grumble: "oh, Tasofro, what have you done!"

There are bound to be more moments like this in the future.

EDIT:
I won't be able to download the file until tomorrow.

One question: are the spell card comments replaced? (screenshot, etc...)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 04:06:49 PM by cuc »
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LadyScarlet

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Re: Testing out solutions to Touhou 13.5 patch?
« Reply #149 on: July 07, 2013, 04:36:39 PM »
So, is there anything I can help with? You guys seem like you have everything under control.
My Youtube Channel. I mostly upload Hisoutensoku videos.