Topic: Is touhou suppose to be so goddamn hard?  (Read 19319 times)

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nintendonut888

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Re: Is touhou suppose to be so goddamn hard?
« Reply #60 on: February 06, 2014, 08:28:38 pm »
Many people get into Touhou for the story and setting. I'm not sure you can argue that people play the games for story, especially since most avid players skip the cutscenes. Because of that I don't think people are really bound to following them in order.

And besides, if that were their goal, they would be starting with HRtP, as I said.

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Re: Is touhou suppose to be so goddamn hard?
« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2014, 09:24:01 pm »
Quote from: some wiki page
Even among ZUN's works, the canonicity of the first five Touhou games produced for the PC-98 platform is uncertain

And, I didn't even know pc98 games existed until 1 year into Touhou.

nintendonut888

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Re: Is touhou suppose to be so goddamn hard?
« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2014, 09:52:16 pm »
Didn't you hear? ZUN pretty much confirmed PC-98 as canon in his last major interview. He said there were contradictions, but the events did happen.
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
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Re: Is touhou suppose to be so goddamn hard?
« Reply #63 on: February 06, 2014, 10:03:51 pm »
Interesting.

 

chirpy13

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Re: Is touhou suppose to be so goddamn hard?
« Reply #64 on: February 06, 2014, 10:44:19 pm »
Yuuka is canonically a sleepyhead.  So cute!

Sakurei

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Re: Is touhou suppose to be so goddamn hard?
« Reply #65 on: February 06, 2014, 11:45:38 pm »
Chiyuri is canonly a mischievous dickhead. So cute!

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Re: Is touhou suppose to be so goddamn hard?
« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2014, 12:22:01 am »
But most people play for the story
Are you sure about that? Because I'm not sure that's the case for "most" people. But OK, let me clarify. The story of EoSD is stand-alone, and could have happened at any point in the series. I think it's maybe a little off to insist people ought to play the games in the order they were made for narrative reasons.

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Re: Is touhou suppose to be so goddamn hard?
« Reply #67 on: February 07, 2014, 01:34:26 am »
No, not insisting. But I'd tell them to play EoSD first if I were asked.
The story of EoSD is stand-alone, and could have happened at any point in the series.
iirc from my secondary days that Marisa met Patchouli in EoSD so they could go on an underground yuri adventure in th11? So I'd assume EoSD came first before th11.

Kimidori

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Re: Is touhou suppose to be so goddamn hard?
« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2014, 02:26:05 am »
The story of EoSD is stand-alone, and could have happened at any point in the series.

we need to know the SDM cast before event of Th7,7.5,8,10.5,11,12.3 could happens. since in those game Reimu and others already known them and that couldn't be possible without EoSD.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 02:28:06 am by Kimidori »


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Re: Is touhou suppose to be so goddamn hard?
« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2014, 02:36:13 am »
Well, order of character appearances aside, the game was a single arc was my own clumsy way of saying it could have happened at any point. Although I'm honestly not sure I've seen "for the story" come up a lot as a reason for playing Touhou. Maybe a poll would shed light on this.

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PurpleTheGuy

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Re: Is touhou suppose to be so goddamn hard?
« Reply #70 on: February 07, 2014, 10:53:48 am »
New to Touhou series, just started yesterday playing Double Dealing Characters.

First stage: :3 Not as hard as others said~ No problem~
Second stage:  :) Still manageable, lost one life
Third stage:  ??? WTF

And What does Sakuya spell card do? It just changed the screen colour?

Hello OP, and welcome to playing Touhou, and having your first few licks of the shmup genre!

Yeah, for some time, I've been meaning to help this fellow out, and other budding players, as I've been busy with real-life related stuff the past couple days. Now, I can appropriately start out, right now, in giving the best advice I can to the new guys at this game, as I am able to, at this moment! I am not one of the best, as I still got a lot to learn, and as it stands right now, I certainly don't hold a candle, or a leg to stand on, for that matter, against the usual big-shots here and elsewhere (My greatest respect for them all), as I'm still working on my skills to reach to where I can see what they see on an everyday basis (I've had a slight taste of what they see, when I first 1cc'ed PoFV of "Legendary" Mode (Lunatic), a first in any Touhou game I've played, and I got to tell you, it was awesome! I was like, "So...This is what they see everyday..." mildly speaking, let's put it that way. It was the best feeling ever! I want to keep going to the mountaintops with them, more and more! I may never get to be as good as some of the heavy-hitters here and elsewhere, but it ain't gonna stop me from working on putting my best foot forward! In-fact, I feel more encouraged than ever before!), but I'll give it my best shot at answering the OP, and try to give the best personal input as I can, and I'll do my best to be as clear as I can with my advice, in an effort to assist the OP, and anyone else out there who are also new to the Touhou genre, and the shmup genre in-general. I'll speak, based on my own experience, so far:

I know this sounds like rubbish advice, but really, the best way to get really good at the game(s), and improving as a shmup player, is to just keep playing at the games, have that drive to get really good at it, and eventually, at some point in time, you'll actually start to get better at the game(s), and the funny part is, you probably won't notice it, you'll simply be beating the games just like that.

For you, the best way that I'd recommend, since it worked out for me, is to try out Easy mode in the Touhou game(s), and see how far you can get. Don't worry, contrary to what is said about Easy mode, there is no shame in playing Easy mode, especially if you're a beginner. I wouldn't let those sorts of Easy mode mockery discussions discourage you. With that said, after trying Easy mode out, I would play on Normal as soon as possible (Personally, when I first started, I would play Normal mode all the time, and I simply just kept at it until results came in for me), and often as well, as it'll help in getting you to be generally better at the game(s), as you'll start to get a better feel for the patterns that are being thrown around you, how the game works, improve your ability to dodge, your reaction time, and also, you do have bombs to use, and they're there for a reason. If you must use them, just use them if you must! You even have deathbombing on most of the games, so use those too, if you must! Again, they're there for a reason! Then, after that, you can start to try out the higher difficulties (I'll explain them briefly later on in this post), and begin making your way up top!

Anyhow, moving on, I would go about practicing that part on practice mode (Again, there's practice mode for a reason. The very fact ZUN gave practice mode on his games is pretty darn good and generous, considering shmups, I believe), like, for example: Let's say you're having trouble with, as you say, Stage 3 of Double Dealing Character. I would go to practice mode, and go practice that stage with whatever character I like the most/Good at playing as/etc., and just keep going at it until you start to get a general feel for the stage, and you begin to start minimising the errors you're making, making you less likely to miss in those trouble parts in-general, and also work to memorise those specific parts as well. For this particular game, Double Dealing Character, it is one of three games on the entire official Touhou games collection that have this feature called Spell Practice (Ten Desires and Imperishable Night are the other two, as far as I would know and understand) where you can practice certain Spell Cards that you have encountered throughout however far you've gotten at the game so. I would use that to my advantage, and work at playing those certain Spell Cards I have trouble with over and over, until I begin to get a feel for them, and understand how that certain Spell Card works, thus leading you to fail the card less often to where, you'll actually be more likely to pass through it the next time you play the actual campaign, without bombing, or even losing a life, thus, allowing you get further on through the game, and a little closer to your first 1cc and beyond! :)

Also, hope you don't take this the wrong way, but... While Double Dealing Character isn't terribly hard to do, I wouldn't recommend (Okay, truthfully, I don't know, to be honest) starting out with that game, especially for beginners and first-timers, as later on in the game, there will be lots of nasty little, unconventional gimmicks that will surprise you, that's the main thing, and I'm not quite sure if that would be something beginners and first-timers would be up to. I mean, I'm not mocking anyone, it's just... Hmm, I don't know. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if even the best had trouble with those particular gimmicks, back when they first encountered it. The game(s) that I would recommend starting out with are Embodiment of Scarlet Devil (EoSD, I started out with this game!), Perfect Cherry Blossom (PCB, possibly my most favourite one of them all! Love playing this one a lot!), Imperishable Night (IN, my second favourite! Lots of characters you can play as!), Mountain of Faith (MoF, very fun and simple game!), and Ten Desires (TD, you can play as a lot of characters, four actually, very cool character designs in that one, and the scenery in it is very nice, and the difficulty isn't too bad, either, I think, so you can play at this one as well!). I would recommend starting out with EoSD personally, for story reasons, and you can actually understand what's going on story-wise, though in actuality, you can start out with whatever you feel most comfortable with. While these are still certainly far from "easy," I would venture to say they're more "tamed," so to speak, compared to others, if I do say so myself. Again, this is speaking from my own experience, so it's just my own input at this. That, and I do play those particular ones a lot, along with PoFV, which I'll talk about next paragraph, so that can be why. Take no offence, as I didn't intend one bit on that. But seriously, for the OP and other new budding players, this is what I'd personally recommend, overall. Take your pick.

Right, while I'm still on that topic, don't forget the PC-98 games, as well! Those are a lot of fun to play, as well, though HRtP will be a pretty tough one, since that's a different game altogether. While, yes, it is a Touhou game obviously, it's not a shmup game, as one would expect. It's an interesting one to play, indeed we can say. Now, Story of Eastern Wonderland (SoEW), Phantasmagoria of Dim. Dream (PoDD), Lotus Land Story (LLS), and Mystic Square (MS) are tons of fun to play, not that Highly Responsive to Prayers (HRtP) isn't fun to play, it's just very, very different from the other Touhou games, but anyhow, yeah, go try those out as well! They aren't too bad, I don't think!

Again, don't take this the wrong way, but as it stands for you, Phantasmagoria of Flower View (PoFV), Shoot the Bullet (StB), Subterranean Animism (SA), Undefined Fantastic Object (UFO), Double Spoiler (DS), Great Fairy Wars (GFW) and Double Dealing Character (DDC) might not be the best game(s) for you to start out with, in my opinion, for that, while I like these games a lot, especially PoFV (Tons of fun to play! That being said, while it's not very hard to play at all, in my opinion, it is very different from the conventional shmup games, so it stands to point that part out. Ditto with StB and DS, they're both different as well, and, well, let's just say they have their moments, and Great Fairy Wars... Yeah, that one certainly has it's moments alright, let's just say) and UFO (Very cool game! Love the ideas behind it, and all! That, and I simply love playing as Sanae, I like her as a character, not just simply for shot types! Any game with Sanae in it, especially as a playable character, in my opinion, is, alone, worth getting dang good at, but that's my opinion anyway, and it's not relevant here, so... excuse me on that slight rant  :blush: Hey, don't look at me like that, honest, lol), I'll admit, these particular ones all do demand more effort than usual. This is even generally noted, not just by me, but from many others out there, in particular; thus, I don't know if I would personally recommend these for the new and budding players, unless you've already got experience in other shmup games beforehand or so. I mean, you can give them a shot, if that's what you want, then by all means, but... Hmm, I don't know.

Time-wise, I would give it my best effort to put in at least thirty minutes, up to an hour or two on average each day (I put those times up, particularly for those with busy time schedules, like what I have right now) because, as what I said earlier, the best way to practice is to just keep playing at the games! Really, it is, and if you can, if you have days, where you can afford more time than what I had recommended, then go for more time to be spent playing on Touhou! Many allegedly say, and believe, unfortunately (leading many away from the game(s) in-general, and thus, go back to being dreamers, resulting in an even smaller pool of dedicated Touhou players) that they can't do the game(s), when really, they can, if they know how to play and practice every day at it correctly, as opposed to just saying, "Oh man, this game's too hard. There's no way I can get good at this," or something around those lines. I used to be that way, back when I first started playing Touhou about four years ago or so (Before I had that disastrous two year hiatus I didn't mean to do, which went from sometime late 2011 to Aug. 2013. Now, I got back since, and I've been progressing at the games rather nicely (I got back in, just like that. I hope that such a disastrous hiatus will never happen again, and I'll make good sure on that!), even though there are times I've goofed up on playing everyday, for real-life related reasons. I know, I know, crappy reason, and not even a good one, either.) where I thought as you did, OP and those that are new too.

In-fact, this may surprise you, but I will dare venture to say even the very best started out like that, too, where they were also new to the game(s), and didn't know what to do, either, and they simply just worked at it over and over, having many failures back when they were trying to go down that old, beaten path, and, before they knew it, they gained their wings, and learned how to fly. You, too, can also gain your wings, and learn how to fly, but it takes practice and effort to do so, if you want to eventually get to playing on Hard mode (I personally call it "Heroic" mode. Yes, yes, I know, Halo difficulty names lol, but you gotta admit, I would aptly refer to these difficulties as this), Lunatic (I call it "Legendary" mode. Certainly, this needs not another intro, as I have explained my reasoning just earlier), and the Extra stages (I call it "Mythic" stage. If you're curious, I name my replays as this, depending on what difficulty I play in, and what character did I use to beat the game and difficulty at, and whatnot; for example, let's say I beat PCB "Heroic Mode (Hard) w/ Marisa A shot-type, then I name my replay "HeroicMA"), that said, I'll be submitting scores/replays on MotK under the name, The Kid)! Really, there's no better way to say it, just keep playing and playing, honest! We all began as something else.

Ah, right, I forgot to mention this, but another good one, is to watch videos/replays of those who have already passed the game(s) long ago; otherwise, those who have been down that path before, and have made it out! Study them, see and analyse what they are doing, try to think if aspects of their technique can work best for you, try them out, and see what you can get out of it! Heck, if you can, try to even contact them personally, and see what they have to say on the matter, for your situation! I'm certain they'll be happy to help out. I never tried that before (I'm people-shy, lol, especially towards those better than I) so... I think it would work. Just don't ask them silly things, or something like, "OMG, you are so good! Let me shine your shoes!111" or "Congratulations! You don't need an umbrella anymore!111" or whatever, as, while I'm sure they appreciate that, I think it's better to ask serious questions, like how to get better at so-and-so, for that matter (Otherwise, what I am saying is it wouldn't be wise to get them to waste their time, in that case. Trust me, I know. They would actually prefer to be referred to as another fellow player. I gotta tell you, you'd be surprised how humble and helpful they will be, if you're serious about it, and approach them in an intelligent manner, as someone who is eager to get better at the games, as opposed to what I'd call "dreamers." You'll be surprised by how much you can learn from them!), but that's just me, anyway. But yeah, watching videos/replays of those of a higher calibre of skill than you is another good one to do, especially if you're feeling stuck somewhere, or you just can't seem to figure something out in that certain part of whatever game you're playing!

Lastly, and perhaps the most important one, is... Have fun playing the game(s), and don't treat it as a chore to do, for if you do, then there isn't much hope on getting better at the game(s) in-general, and you'll probably end up quitting, so don't feel so forced to play, honestly. Play at the times you feel you're up for one (I personally try to do this everyday, as I said before, especially if you do want to get better at the game(s)) and before you know it, you'll actually start to progress through and through, and the funny part is, you might not even notice it! Don't feel discouraged, if you don't succeed in 1cc the game(s) on whatever difficulty you play in, as for your case, you may not get it right all the time, as this is to be expected. Just have at it, again and again, and I promise you, you'll get better! You have my word!

With that said, hang in there, trooper, for you've only just started! The path ain't easy, but hey, all things take effort, don't they? This is the shmup genre after-all! Best of luck on your path, trooper! There's so much to learn, and so much worth getting good at, so stick around! Trust me, it's totally worth it! Honestly, these game(s) and this genre, in-general, do deserve to be played by more people and get more exposure! I don't know why many, even though they like the music, the art, and heck, even the fangames (There are a LOT of them, and they're very fun to play, as well!) but when it comes to the official games, like, suddenly, somewhere from 95% - 99% of that crowd or whatever (Just a complete guess, but this is from my own observation) disappears for some reason, and... I don't know. The official Touhou games really aren't that bad difficulty-wise, honestly. They're certainly doable alright, it just takes a lot of practice and dedication to really get somewhere in the game(s), we can say that, I suppose I can say it that way. It's actually, arguably, one of the easier shmups to play, so they say, but it's really unfortunate many run off anyway, so to speak.

If you have any questions, or need me to clarify anything I said here, feel free to ask/contact me through PM, e-mail, here, or wherever, and I'll answer to the best of my ability!
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 03:09:12 am by PurpleTheGuy »

Sakurei

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Re: Is touhou suppose to be so goddamn hard?
« Reply #71 on: February 07, 2014, 11:53:02 am »
^ Mostly a good post. A lot of these things are true. The best way to progress is to play; you will often only notice the progress in how you beat the games (or beat your best runs) and so on.

But you don't have to play every day. If you say "I want to play every day for an hour" it's like meeting a quota and that's not the way to go about. I don't know why, but people apparently think of me as one of the better players here and let me tell you that I most certainly don't play every day. I also know that Chum, Cactu or Zil don't play every day. Forcing yourself to play will just burn you out faster. Oftentimes a break will get you back, but sometimes, once burnt out, you will rarely, if ever, touch the games again. So I guess what I want to say is: Don't force yourself to anything. If your initial reaction is something along the lines of "this is impossible, I'll never get good", then you should consider watching players better than you, maybe contact them if you can and ask them how it was for them. I'm sure you could get some tips from some of the old players here. Or maybe not, if they have bad memory.

PurpleTheGuy

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Re: Is touhou suppose to be so goddamn hard?
« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2014, 01:18:48 pm »
^ Mostly a good post. A lot of these things are true. The best way to progress is to play; you will often only notice the progress in how you beat the games (or beat your best runs) and so on.

But you don't have to play every day. If you say "I want to play every day for an hour" it's like meeting a quota and that's not the way to go about. I don't know why, but people apparently think of me as one of the better players here and let me tell you that I most certainly don't play every day. I also know that Chum, Cactu or Zil don't play every day. Forcing yourself to play will just burn you out faster. Oftentimes a break will get you back, but sometimes, once burnt out, you will rarely, if ever, touch the games again. So I guess what I want to say is: Don't force yourself to anything. If your initial reaction is something along the lines of "this is impossible, I'll never get good", then you should consider watching players better than you, maybe contact them if you can and ask them how it was for them. I'm sure you could get some tips from some of the old players here. Or maybe not, if they have bad memory.

^ Indeed, this is a very good point to be made. I see where this is coming from very much so!

Yeah, I only say that personally because, well, I mentioned I did an unnecessarily long hiatus for about two years, more-or-less, and to me, that truly sucked so bad, especially since at that time before, back in Aug. 2011, when I did my 1st ever 1cc clear on an Exrta Stage (It was battling Ran Yakumo w/ Sakuya A. I remember being damn proud of that one, even though it had mistakes galore lol) before, and well, soon after that one, real-life happened to me, suffice to say, and  before long, it got to one thing after another, and that disastrous hiatus happened. Crap reason, I know, but yeah, that's what happened. It really sucked, and it was rather inexcusable of me to do, especially since, if I hadn't stopped then,  and kept playing at it, then who knows where I would be right now, and yeah, that sure was... no.. Dang it, no. I never want to leave again, and so, I made that promise to myself, "Never again." So, I get rather adamant about trying to play everyday, and I do my very best to, but yeah, even then, it's still pretty darn hard to do, especially since, for me, real life crap happens, and it sure takes away time from other things, such as getting to where I'd like to be in Touhou, and shmups in-general. Indeed, I totally see what you're saying. This will be duly noted! Playing smart comes to mind when I hear your advice right now, for me, at least. It is very interesting to hear.

Also, well met, Sakurei!
 

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