Author Topic: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness  (Read 7689 times)

A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« on: February 05, 2013, 06:47:34 AM »
Please excuse me if I am posting in the wrong forum. And I also apologize for the long post.  :blush:

Also, I do not mean for this to be a power level thread, in case any of you are thinking so.

Due to the vagueness of many Touhou characters' abilities, there is one in particular that interests me: Yuyuko's manipulation of death. My goal, hopefully with your assistance, is to fully examine the nature of Yuyuko's ability. Also please forgive me if I ramble about this philosophically.

Her ability is what it says: manipulation of death, but what is that? What exactly does it mean? Many people I have asked before or who have discussed this before, albeit not as deeply as I would have hoped (that's why I made this thread, right?) have only considered her powers in a shallow sense. What I mean by that is they are under the impression that her ability simply means to kill people. I, however, think that is only a small part of it. When one thinks "manipulation of death", of course the idea of the ability to instantly kill comes to mind.

My thought is that is goes much deeper than that. What is known is that her ability does not work on immortals such as Kaguya and Mokou, but people also claim it won't work on those who are already dead (Murasa, Tojiko, etc.), but there is no evidence to the latter, whether it be in the games itself or in print works. I believe Yuyuko doesn't simply kill, but can control the very workings of the concept of death itself (immortals excluded, of course). People generally don't regard Yuyuko's ability to be that powerful, but if you take it for what it says on the tin, it can be just as hax worthy as Yukari's boundary manipulation and Remilia's manipulation of fate, and here's why.

The word death is used in a large variety of contexts. The most literal is the absence of life, simple as that. When you take the word in a different context though, the nature changes somewhat, for example, when stating that something has ended or has been ruined, one might sometimes say that it is "the death of x". If we take that context into account, then doesn't Yuyuko's ability have free reign over not just physical and literal things, but metaphysical and nonliteral things as well? I am quick to compare this to Yukari's ability, because if Yuyuko's is taken the way I just put it, then both her's and Yukari's are somewhat similar.

Yukari shall alter the boundary between x and y, but doesn't that also hold true with Yuyuko? Let's say Yuyuko invokes the death of x, then you just have y, and vice versa. While not exactly the same, there are some commonalities between them. I believe that if Yuyuko really wanted to, she could topple the very foundation of Gensokyo itself, just by, well, invoking death in the very concept of Gensokyo, if what I stated earlier is true. Frankly, I don't see this not being true considering what ZUN did with Reimu in IN, the whole "flying above reality" thing.

Another thing, I want to address, is what is stated about Yuyuko, Yukari, Reimu, and Shiki. While it does say that the three of them combined can't do anything against Shiki, it could also very well and very likely simply mean, from the context of the original Japanese text, that it would be pointless to argue against Shiki, and have nothing to do with actually being able to beat her in a fight.

What do you guys think of this? Feel free to give any insight, as I am very curious to know how far Yuyuko's powers can go. Also, sorry again for the long post. I just really wanted to get this out there.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 06:49:16 AM by Aoiinazuma »

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Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2013, 08:45:26 AM »
An interesting proposal.  First I want to warn you that I just finished an assignment that had me panning through Shakespearean literature, and since it's 3 AM, my choice of vocabulary may reflect that.  But I digress.

My first instinct is to check PMiSS, since you know. This is what it has to say on her ability:

Quote
The ability to manipulate death means just as it says, the ability to kill someone with no resistance.
Once they're dead, she would be able to control their spirit as well.
Nothing good can come out of challenging her.

This reinforces my first conclusion (which I have yet to present), which is that manipulation of death is either very similar to or possibly inclusive of 'manipulation of THE dead.'  Since we know she can control the spirits of the dead, I find it wouldn't be such a stretch to say she can control other undead as well.

This immediately made me wonder, are touhou vampires canonically undead or just a type of Youkai?  If the former, theoretically Yuyuko would be able to manipulate them as other undead.  If not...she should be able to kill them and then manipulate their spirits I suppose?

Regardless, there is no specification in PMiSS as to whether being able to manipulate 'spirits' of the dead extends to manipulating the 'bodies' of the dead, so I can't even say definitively whether I think Yuyuko would be able to manipulate someone like Yoshika. 

I suspect that her ability only extends as far as manipulating spirits of the deceased, not undead themselves, but I have no evidence to really back that claim up. 


As far as the ability to kill concepts, my instinct is no, but it's hard to say that when presented with the 'fly out of reality' comparison lol.

However I would argue as such: manipulation of death is a lot more specific than it sounds.  'Existing,' or 'being' is not sufficient to ascribe the term 'life' to something.  As such, though a metaphorical 'death' may be possible for a concept or an object, its just that, a metaphor.  To be able to invoke death in something, I would first argue that that thing must carry an attribute of 'life', which theoretical existences like 'fate,' the 'theory of relativity,' or indeed 'Gensokyo' don't have. 

You could even flip that argument on its head, saying that since immortals like Kaguya and Mokou, are immune to Yuyuko's abilities by virtue of the fact they aren't alive.  Since they don't age, their bodies fundamentally cannot change, and they have no aspect of death, one could simply argue they are not alive in the same sense that humans or youkai are alive.  Thus, it is perfectly logical that Yuyuko would have no control over them or their deaths.

Some evidence for assuming that we can define death by its complementary aspect, life, comes from Kaguya's PMiSS article:

Quote
As eternity refers to a world with no history, it is also a world where change is eternally unknown.  No matter how much you may try to bring about change in such a world, it is futile in a world where time has essentially stopped.

What is important here is that the concept of 'eternity' is defined as 'a world with no history,' or 'a world where change is eternally unknown.'  This demonstrates that 'eternity' itself is not its own concept, but is instead defined by its negative relationship with time.  In the same vein, we can say death is defined by its negative relationship with life.


As far as Shiki vs Yukari and Co, the dictionary definition of the word Yukari uses (逆らえない) is 'to go against, oppose, disobey, defy.'  So while you could technically argue that this means they'd lose to her in a fight, it seems more likely to me that they just don't want to stay and talk to her, and if she told them to, they wouldn't be able to disobey.  Whether THAT means they couldn't beat her in a fight is a whole different can of worms :P

Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2013, 09:24:46 AM »
I got the impression that she controlled souls, full stop. Death is a side effect of having your soul ripped from your body. "Invitation to the Netherworld" all that.

As a general rule, I think it's important to note that "manipulation of X" as it says in the character's profile is rarely that straightforward. Usually it has some specific mechanism and isn't just a general free reign over anything that could possibly be construed as "X". Like, say, Flandre. Her ability says she can destroy anything, which is all well and good, but as we learn later what she's actually doing is crushing its essence in her hand or whatever. Does that mean there's something she can't destroy? Maybe, maybe not, but at least we know she needs a hand to crush with, and maybe line of sight (can't remember). There's a mechanism, a process. Yuyuko doesn't "manipulate death", she just has a power that kills things. I don't think the process is ever made clear, but her profile implies it's an evolution of the ability to manipulate souls of the dead.

Furthermore, what it says in their profile isn't even necessarily true. Akyuu says the character's abilities are self-reported. You may not think this applies to the omniscient narrative voice of the manuals, but apparently they match up with what she has written down in SoPM and often do not describe the character's powers in the slightest. For example Futo is listed as having power over Feng Shui, but her profile (and spell cards) imply she's just using generic Shinto magic. Kanako and Suwako likewise have "abilities" that don't really mean anything.

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Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2013, 10:25:20 AM »
I'd argue that if the omniscient manual narrators match with Akyuu's writtingsm then it's a case of Akyuu getting it right. I mean, there's no reason for ZUN to make stuff up that doesn't really apply to the character in their out of universe profiles. What would be the purpose of lying in those?

Anyway, her profile says:

"In the beginning, Yuyuko only possessed the ability to manipulate departed souls. Unconsciously, that power grew stronger, that eventually she possessed the ability to invite others to death."

In other words, she can both command the spirit of the deceased (which is most likely why she was appointed as the keeper of the Netherworld by the Yamas) and wish people dead. At first she could only do the former, and later in life she could also do the latter.

As for invoking the death of concepts, I'd also be tempted to say "no", but I do wonder how she and Youmu managed to make the night eternal in Imperishible Night... if she can invoke death in concepts, she probably killed the concept of daybreak. But then, how would she return it to normal? It's not stated that she can unwish death... sooo yeah, I'd still say no to the death of concepts thing. It's not like all abilities can be extapolated like Reimu's, anyway; Yuuka's flower manipulation is exactly as simple as it sounds, making flowers bloom and stuff like that. Also, if we consider that all abilities are self-stated, then it stands to reason that Reimu's "ability to fly" doesn't fully explain the extent of what she can do; Reimu usually don't elaborate on things she thinks are obvious, she'd probably think stating that would be enough for other people to deduce what she can do.

Anyways, I really don't think Yuyuko can control undead characters; this would be extrapolating her abilities in a way that's not supported by any canon information we have. Undead charaters aren't even really dead; that's why they are called undead. Like, Yuyuko is not an undead; she is dead.

This does bring up the more important question; would she be able to control Youmu's ghost half? :P

Also, as a side note, Kanako and Suwako's abilities do mean their obvious interpretation in addition to their more philosophical ones (Suwako can create and manipulate earth, as shown in Hisoutensoku and the UFO ending's where she prepares the ground for the construction of the Myouren Temple; and as a former wind god, it stands to reason that Kanako can manipulate the "heavens" as in, wind, storms, etc).
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 10:32:31 AM by Sagus »
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Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2013, 10:43:03 AM »
I'd argue that if the omniscient manual narrators match with Akyuu's writtingsm then it's a case of Akyuu getting it right. I mean, there's no reason for ZUN to make stuff up that doesn't really apply to the character in their out of universe profiles. What would be the purpose of lying in those?

Talking specifically about Futo, which is where the footnote about powers being self-reported comes from, it seems her power has nothing to do with Feng Shui, and everyone involved knows that. Including Akyuu. Yet it's listed in her TD profile.

Quote
Also, as a side note, Kanako and Suwako's abilities do mean their obvious interpretation in addition to their more philosophical ones (Suwako can create and manipulate earth, as shown in Hisoutensoku and the UFO ending's where she prepares the ground for the construction of the Myouren Temple; and as a former wind god, it stands to reason that Kanako can manipulate the "heavens" as in, wind, storms, etc).

Kanako actually seems to have no clue what her powers are, but she speculates that she can manipulate earth since she's a mountain god. Likewise, Suwako doesn't actually have any earth powers, she only has curse powers. It just happens to be the case that the curse gods she commands have earth and plant related powers. She just orders them to do things. While I suppose in some sense she's still getting things done in that sphere of influence, it's not her ability in that very strict sense, and there's really no reason to analyze it deeply. I would recommend thinking about why they reported their powers that way though. It means more in terms of characterization and personality than it does in terms of magical powers.

As for invoking the death of concepts, I'd also be tempted to say "no", but I do wonder how she and Youmu managed to make the night eternal in Imperishible Night... if she can invoke death in concepts, she probably killed the concept of daybreak. But then, how would she return it to normal

Oh yeah, there's also this. My answer to this is another question: how did she steal spring? And we all know the answer to that, she asked Youmu to do it.  ;) And personally I don't think it's plausible to come up with an explanation for how the power of swordsmanship can alter the revolution of the Earth around the sun. In the end, some things are just "magic". The characters have powers, but they aren't limited by them. That's sort of the intent behind the rather awkward "ability to the extent of X" phrasing that we thankfully got rid of. The point is that the characters have abilites including but not limited to whatever their specialty is.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 10:51:45 AM by Clarste »

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Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2013, 01:17:40 PM »
Talking specifically about Futo, which is where the footnote about powers being self-reported comes from, it seems her power has nothing to do with Feng Shui, and everyone involved knows that. Including Akyuu. Yet it's listed in her TD profile.
Well, Akyuu says it has a token relationship with Feng Shui, and Futo herself calls it Feng Shui manipulation, so it's not really wrong to say it's her ability. We can't really go and say that the profiles are somehow false info, otherwise it'd just be nonsensical for ZUN to write them out of universe.

Quote
Kanako actually seems to have no clue what her powers are, but she speculates that she can manipulate earth since she's a mountain god.

That's because she stopped being a wind god a long time ago; IIRC she explains it in the Symposium that the powers of a god and their titles change depending on belief and the myths associated with them.

Quote
Likewise, Suwako doesn't actually have any earth powers, she only has curse powers. It just happens to be the case that the curse gods she commands have earth and plant related powers. She just orders them to do things. While I suppose in some sense she's still getting things done in that sphere of influence, it's not her ability in that very strict sense, and there's really no reason to analyze it deeply.
True, true.

Quote
Oh yeah, there's also this. My answer to this is another question: how did she steal spring? And we all know the answer to that, she asked Youmu to do it.  ;) And personally I don't think it's plausible to come up with an explanation for how the power of swordsmanship can alter the revolution of the Earth around the sun. In the end, some things are just "magic". The characters have powers, but they aren't limited by them. That's sort of the intent behind the rather awkward "ability to the extent of X" phrasing that we thankfully got rid of. The point is that the characters have abilites including but not limited to whatever their specialty is.
I know, which is why I don't think she can kill concepts; she didn't use her main power to create the eternal night, because otherwise she wouldn't be able to bring it back. I mean, she didn't kill spring to make it go to the Netherworld, either. And there really is nothing indicating that she can do it in canon, so it just seems like greatly exaggerating what she can do.
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Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2013, 02:51:27 PM »
As for invoking the death of concepts, I'd also be tempted to say "no", but I do wonder how she and Youmu managed to make the night eternal in Imperishible Night... if she can invoke death in concepts, she probably killed the concept of daybreak. But then, how would she return it to normal? It's not stated that she can unwish death... sooo yeah, I'd still say no to the death of concepts thing.
One theory is that she just asked Yukari to do it for her.

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Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2013, 06:23:38 PM »
Two things:

1. I love fan speculation threads. One of my favorite TARC threads ever was based on the whole Maribel/Yukari thing. Notice how heavily it refers to canon. Whenever we delve into fan speculation, we need to start by asking ourselves, "What do we know?" This is easy to answer: refer to the official profiles and related canon works, whether in-game dialogue or literature. I realize ZUN leaves a lot of blank spaces in his works, so we start by staying as close to canon's wiggle room as possible, progressing cautiously and incrementally from there. By doing so, we're of course still speculating, but our speculations still run as close to canon (or canon's "logic") as possible.

So I think it's sort of putting the cart way before the horse by starting with a treatise on the nature of Death. Even if your understanding of what death means is the right one - and there's actually nothing saying it is - ZUN might have a totally different understanding of death, and what he meant by it when he wrote up Yuyuko's profile. By starting off the theory way out in Rhetorical Wonderland and then haphazardly pulling it back to Touhou, you're doing the opposite of what should be done to build a solid fan theory. It's the difference between going "deeper" and going farther away.

2. "An Insight on Vagueness" is an awesomely hilarious title for a Touhou fan speculation thread, whether you intended it that way or not.

PS:
Furthermore, what it says in their profile isn't even necessarily true.

There's actually a school of thought that contends that an artist can be wrong about the interpretation of their own work. This comes from the idea that art arises first from the unconscious. So just as other people might be more insightful about your unconscious motivations than you are, so it can be with art. But if we start heading into "even the official profiles can't be trusted" territory, we're really up a creek without a paddle when it comes to understanding anything about the girls and Gensokyo. So maybe it's OK to assume that canon sources are true.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2013, 06:54:13 PM »
PS:
There's actually a school of thought that contends that an artist can be wrong about the interpretation of their own work. This comes from the idea that art arises first from the unconscious. So just as other people might be more insightful about your unconscious motivations than you are, so it can be with art. But if we start heading into "even the official profiles can't be trusted" territory, we're really up a creek without a paddle when it comes to understanding anything about the girls and Gensokyo. So maybe it's OK to assume that canon sources are true.

Umm, I think I probably misrepresented my point there. I agree that we need to anchor our speculation on something, and the official profiles are certainly our best bet since they're not written from the perspective of any obviously biased character. What I meant was much more specific than that, which is that the character abilities (ie: the little blurb written at the top of each profile) aren't meant to be taken as absolute. They're closer to the character titles than they are to the rest of the prose. Little bits of flavor that give you an idea of the character but no details by themselves. What exactly the ability means is something that needs to be elaborated on in other sources, like the prose of the profile or Akyuu or whatever.

PS: What I mean about Akyuu being biased is that she goes out of her way to make youkai seem scary. She says this explicitly at one point. I don't think she ever intentionally lies, but it's pretty easy to tell where her own feelings are being written into the description.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 06:58:01 PM by Clarste »

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Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2013, 07:11:55 PM »
Oh, don't get me wrong - I understood what you meant, and it's a pretty interesting fact. Your point just reminded me of that school of thought is all.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2013, 10:12:19 PM »
By starting off the theory way out in Rhetorical Wonderland and then haphazardly pulling it back to Touhou, you're doing the opposite of what should be done to build a solid fan theory. It's the difference between going "deeper" and going farther away.

Actually, the way I see it, a theory is created using what is known for the topic, stating the theory based on that knowledge, and referring back to the source material, which is what I think I have been doing, but I admit, not exactly to the best of my abilities.

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Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2013, 10:14:18 PM »
I know, which is why I don't think she can kill concepts; she didn't use her main power to create the eternal night, because otherwise she wouldn't be able to bring it back. I mean, she didn't kill spring to make it go to the Netherworld, either. And there really is nothing indicating that she can do it in canon, so it just seems like greatly exaggerating what she can do.
Just to further this point, if she technically killed spring, wouldn't that also mean that no matter what Reimu or anyone else did, it's not coming back; dooming Gensokyo to an eternal winter? 

I also believe that Youmu stealing spring may not be that far fetched if you think about it a tad abstractly. Gensokyo is the place where everything that isn't believed in anymore goes to. If an old belief was that spring was caused by something or its "essence," wouldn't it be possible for it to appear in Gensokyo, affecting spring within the boundaries? If it's there, Youmu may have been able to snatch it and bring it to the netherworld. But hey, that's just my take on it.

Regarding the immortals, I think that Yuyuko's ability doesn't affect them because by definition, they can't die. I'm just assuming here, but if someone can't die, wouldn't it stop Yuyuko's ability dead in its tracks since it can't complete its course?
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Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2013, 09:07:33 AM »
Quote
If an old belief was that spring was caused by something or its "essence," wouldn't it be possible for it to appear in Gensokyo, affecting spring within the boundaries? If it's there, Youmu may have been able to snatch it and bring it to the netherworld. But hey, that's just my take on it.

That's easier said than done.

@Yuyuko's ability: I also do not think Yuyuko can manipulate the concept of death. My reasoning is mainly because we have never seen her do such or thing. So, it would be a stretch to extrapolate something that may or may not be there.
This also goes into extension of Yukari's ability. There are several things she could not do, like going to the true moon at any given time or creating the Hakurei barrier. But there are things that she could do, like going into people's dreams or summoning trains. From this, you can try to piece together what she may be able to do, even if the pieces can be rather vague, like all character abilities are.

Youmu stealing spring is a good example of abilities not listed, but can be done by the character. Her ability being swordsmanship has no relation to stealing spring, and yet she does this in Perfect Cherry Blossoms.

Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2013, 12:53:17 PM »
Youmu stealing spring is a good example of abilities not listed, but can be done by the character. Her ability being swordsmanship has no relation to stealing spring, and yet she does this in Perfect Cherry Blossoms.

For all we know, stealing spring is within the bounds of whatever Potent Magicks allows every character and their turtle to fly and shoot danmaku.


@Yuyuko's ability: I also do not think Yuyuko can manipulate the concept of death. My reasoning is mainly because we have never seen her do such or thing. So, it would be a stretch to extrapolate something that may or may not be there.

I dunno, I can only think of three or four characters that have enough "screen time" using their abilities outside of duels for that argument to hold water. Remilia, for example, is never shown using her Fateromancy so by that logic it's either useless or nonexistent.
In fact, has Yuyuko ever actually been shown using her ability? If not, that argument would imply she can't use it even on mundane people.



Regarding the immortals, I think that Yuyuko's ability doesn't affect them because by definition, they can't die. I'm just assuming here, but if someone can't die, wouldn't it stop Yuyuko's ability dead in its tracks since it can't complete its course?

I'd say so. As Mokou says: "Death is no longer a part of my existence." Regardless of whether her power is manipulation of death or simply to invite people to death, it would make sense that she can't use it on someone who has no "death" for her ability to work with. It'd be like Sunny trying to work with light in a dark cavern.

'Course, it'd be a different story if she could "create the death" in someone to work with.

Just to further this point, if she technically killed spring, wouldn't that also mean that no matter what Reimu or anyone else did, it's not coming back; dooming Gensokyo to an eternal winter? 

Unless she killed the state of spring being dead to restore it to not-deadness! Such is the magic of applying a system of physics-based logic to operations conceptual in nature. A'course, if we go that far into it she could logically have killed the concept of not having a concept of death in Mokou, and then proceeded to kill her state of not being dead yet. Fun!
Edit: Oh, unless we consider the Hourai elixir's immortality to extend to any concept Mokou embodies, rather than just removing their concept of death. If the concept of lacking a concept of death itself is fundamentally deathless, maybe she could see if the Hourai elixir itself (and its associated concepts) is (are) vulnerable to her ghostly ministrations, or failing that to kill the logic that bars her ability to kill the deathless before donning her invitation hat. Or she could decide it's all too bothersome to think about and just go back to danmaku with the occasional mortalicide.



I'm of the opinion her power is probably just the ability to kill mortals. Also, even if I were to be convinced that her power is like Yukari's in that it worked on the metaphysical level, I'd still argue against her being able to do something like kill the concept of Gensokyo, because that again assumes that anything that falls under the domain of a power is fair game. We've already got multiple examples of actions that fall within the scope of an ability not being a feasible usage of said power (like Starx pointed out above with Yukari gapping to the moon, or with Satori's mind reading someone too far away, and so forth).
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 01:14:10 PM by haoreos2 »

Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2013, 03:29:00 PM »
In fact, has Yuyuko ever actually been shown using her ability? If not, that argument would imply she can't use it even on mundane people.

We've seen her try it on Mokou, and while that certainly can't show us what it looks like when it works, it does show us what it looks like when she tries. Which is to say, it looks like nothing. She can do it without any obvious gestures or preparation. Which is... something I guess.

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Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2013, 03:48:03 PM »
For all we know, stealing spring is within the bounds of whatever Potent Magicks allows every character and their turtle to fly and shoot danmaku.
Didn't the protagonists also gather spring from the people they defeated? I assumed there was some kind of physical "essence of spring" that anyone could steal. (see: Nekogami Yaoyorozu episode 2)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 03:49:59 PM by Prime32 »

Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2013, 02:01:57 AM »
Didn't the protagonists also gather spring from the people they defeated? I assumed there was some kind of physical "essence of spring" that anyone could steal. (see: Nekogami Yaoyorozu episode 2)

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about that. That brings the tally up to Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya and Youmu at least, which probably means it's a generic ability that the vast majority of the cast simply hasn't had any reason to demonstrate.

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Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2013, 02:21:07 AM »
Alice in Sakuya's scenario, the cherry point system, and other details (such as the falling petals during the final battle) all imply the essence of spring takes the form of sakura petals. Part of the inspiration for this is because sakura flower viewing is one of the most iconic activities of spring. In modern day the weather forecasts would track the advancing of the "cherry blossom front", turning the cherry blossoms into a literal herald of spring in their minds. To the Japanese, spring only truly arrives when the cherry blossom front reaches their town.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 02:26:15 AM by cuc »
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Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2013, 04:45:53 AM »
In other words, Youmu can steal spring because she's the gardener.

Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2013, 10:17:09 AM »
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Remilia, for example, is never shown using her Fateromancy so by that logic it's either useless or nonexistent.

True, but there are some evidence that has other characters suggesting she may be manipulating Fate. Like when Akyuu makes theories about Sakuya or when Aya interviewed Flandre. Of course, Remilia has never been shown using it.

What Clarste said. Yuyuko said she tried to use her ability on Mokou and it didn't work.

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That brings the tally up to Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya and Youmu at least, which probably means it's a generic ability that the vast majority of the cast simply hasn't had any reason to demonstrate.

That could be.

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Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2013, 10:22:51 AM »
Well my head-canon with Yuyuko's ability is that she can kill anything that has the concept of death, not just concepts.

Let's say this thing possesses a degree of immortality because it can't die of natural means, unless killed under specific conditions but nevertheless, still possesses the concept of death within it. Yuyuko would be able to kill it because she can manipulate the "death" in it. Basically I think she's a bit like Tohno Shiki, with the ability to kill something nigh immortal as long as it fulfills the condition of possessing a concept of death and the ability to die.

It's been stated that Kaguya and Mokou lack the concept of death within them, that's why Yuyuko can't kill them with her powers.
And then a sacked Sakuya told everyone that Flandre was one of her ex-bosses

Kosachi

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Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2013, 10:52:00 AM »
Well my head-canon with Yuyuko's ability is that she can kill anything that has the concept of death, not just concepts.

Let's say this thing possesses a degree of immortality because it can't die of natural means, unless killed under specific conditions but nevertheless, still possesses the concept of death within it. Yuyuko would be able to kill it because she can manipulate the "death" in it. Basically I think she's a bit like Tohno Shiki, with the ability to kill something nigh immortal as long as it fulfills the condition of possessing a concept of death and the ability to die.

It's been stated that Kaguya and Mokou lack the concept of death within them, that's why Yuyuko can't kill them with her powers.
I'm not 100% sure that Kaguya lacks the concept of death like Mokou does. Kaguya can manipulate the eternal and instantaneous. So she can make herself "eternal" persay, but it doesn't mean she can't die, if you follow me. She uses these abilities by affecting change iirc, so she makes herself immortal by negating the change that occurs when she ages or dies. If someone ever wanted to kill her, or she ever willingly wanted to die, all she ever has to do is not use her ability. Thus the concept of death existing within her. This is just another wild theory of mine, but if Yuyuko can kill if just the concept of death exists within an immortal, wouldn't she have had the ability to kill her off in the last stage if IN?

Unless it was blatantly said in another source and I just missed it  :derp:
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Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2013, 11:09:09 AM »
I'm not 100% sure that Kaguya lacks the concept of death like Mokou does. Kaguya can manipulate the eternal and instantaneous. So she can make herself "eternal" persay, but it doesn't mean she can't die, if you follow me. She uses these abilities by affecting change iirc, so she makes herself immortal by negating the change that occurs when she ages or dies. If someone ever wanted to kill her, or she ever willingly wanted to die, all she ever has to do is not use her ability. Thus the concept of death existing within her. This is just another wild theory of mine, but if Yuyuko can kill if just the concept of death exists within an immortal, wouldn't she have had the ability to kill her off in the last stage if IN?

Unless it was blatantly said in another source and I just missed it  :derp:

Well I'm pretty sure anyone who drinks the Hourai elixir will lose their ability to die, if Mokou lacks the concept of death then so would Kaguya :V
And then a sacked Sakuya told everyone that Flandre was one of her ex-bosses

Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2013, 02:33:05 PM »
Yes, Kaguya explicitly drank the elixir. That's why she was banished after all. So if Mokou's truly immortal then it's weird to imagine that Kaguya isn't, since they both have the exact same form of immortality. Regarding Kaguya's power to manipulate eternity, that's certainly relevant though because her power was one of the "ingredients" of the elixir. Despite being medicine, Eirin needed her help to make it. Despite being eternity, Kaguya needed Eirin to make it into medicine. This is another example of broad powers having clear limitations.

Kosachi

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Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2013, 09:25:38 PM »
Yes, Kaguya explicitly drank the elixir. That's why she was banished after all. So if Mokou's truly immortal then it's weird to imagine that Kaguya isn't, since they both have the exact same form of immortality. Regarding Kaguya's power to manipulate eternity, that's certainly relevant though because her power was one of the "ingredients" of the elixir. Despite being medicine, Eirin needed her help to make it. Despite being eternity, Kaguya needed Eirin to make it into medicine. This is another example of broad powers having clear limitations.

I stand corrected. I can't believe I forgot that. Thanks for clearing that up  :derp:
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Re: A Deeper Look Into Yuyuko's Ability: An Insight on Vagueness
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2013, 09:11:29 AM »
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That brings the tally up to Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya and Youmu at least, which probably means it's a generic ability that the vast majority of the cast simply hasn't had any reason to demonstrate.

I feel like I should expand further on this when I meant by that could be it. We know Youmu steals spring, so we know she can do it. We know the others can gather essence, but this is a bit harder. This is similar to how Imperishable Night works and how I think they gather "time" to prolong the Night. Not quite sure if they do the same thing, but they might be able to do something similar.
But I wouldn't call it a general generic ability, because the people that could do this are fairly strong characters, stage 4 and 5 bosses respectively.
This is kind of like Scarlet Weather Rhapsody, where the characters can all see temperament. Some more sensitive than others. However, I don't think this ability applies to every character and may only apply the "stronger" characters or characters sensitive to temperament, whoever they may be.