Author Topic: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!  (Read 467237 times)

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1050 on: May 20, 2013, 07:45:35 PM »
Hating religion isn't the same thing as hating gods. I mean, you can acknowledge that gods are real but don't think they deserve worship, even if they're nice enough folks on their own. The kappa seem to be in a trading relationship with Moriya, and part of those trades involve "faith", but that doesn't mean they worship her. They can easily think of her as a business partner who has something they want and wants something they have.

It's even noted in one of the MoF profiles that the youkai "worship" consists mostly of partying at the shrine. They don't really take Kanako seriously.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1051 on: May 20, 2013, 07:50:35 PM »
I would be surprised if she didn't have one. I imagine it may use up a lot of her energy though to make it balanced.

If it's just a matter of the move making her invisible it probably won't be a big deal. That's been a move in fighting games before and it's rarely that usable, much less game breaking. And given that her camouflage is actually just a force field in Subterranean Animism I wouldn't be surprised to see a move called Optical Camouflage that just raises her defense.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1052 on: May 20, 2013, 07:51:33 PM »
Wow my favorite Touhou character is in the game now. This double makes up for Shou not being playable.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1053 on: May 20, 2013, 07:53:12 PM »
Science-wielding religion-hating pigtails.

I love you Nitori.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1054 on: May 20, 2013, 07:56:56 PM »
To be honest, I don't get the thing with "kappas hating religion". I mean, were they like "We hate religion. So we will give our faith to couple of gods." WHen Moriyas came into the Youkai Mountain? Doesn't really add up. I think ZUN just wants Nitori have as many bad traits to her as possible in sense.
Did the kappa give their faith to the Moriya shrine though? I'm not sure that's the case.

For the record, when it talks about gods splitting themselves infinitely it's talking about their spirit. Splitting their spirit doesn't give them the ability to create multiple bodies. It's basically the explanation for how gods can be enshrined in more than one place at the same time. Now, since they're gods it's not necessarily hard for them to possess like, a stick, and turn that stick into a fully functional humanoid body, but it's also the case that not all bodies are compatible. Kanako apparently had to choose the most suitable Hell Crow to put Yatagarasu into, after all.
I would love to have a conversation about this at some point. After this thread, I was under the impression that making multiple bodies was exactly what Gods can do.

@Clarste: What is religion other then worshiping?

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1055 on: May 20, 2013, 07:59:14 PM »




Oh boy imagine all the trouble Nitori will find herself into if she hits that bar instead.   

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1056 on: May 20, 2013, 08:09:33 PM »
Oh boy imagine all the trouble Nitori will find herself into if she hits that bar instead.   

Comedy mechanic: Nitori loses large chunks of faith whenever she shoots someone in the background.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1057 on: May 20, 2013, 08:12:07 PM »
@Clarste: What is religion other then worshiping?

Priests, mostly. People often make a distinction between the spiritual side of things and the organization side of things. It's one thing to have faith in a higher power, it's another thing to have faith in mortal priests as representatives of a higher power. But that's not the point I was making. I don't think the kappa worship Moriya at all, they just do business with them.

Regarding splitting, I got most of it from SSiB chapter 6, which is I believe the first place it's mentioned. They make a clear distinction between body and spirit there (with the implication that most gods don't even have bodies in the first place), but I'll admit that maybe I'm interpreting it wrong.

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1058 on: May 20, 2013, 08:47:34 PM »
Comedy mechanic: Nitori loses large chunks of faith whenever she shoots someone in the background.

Would she get a 100% popularity refill then if she shoots Aya instead?  :V

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1059 on: May 20, 2013, 08:49:52 PM »
Would she get a 100% popularity refill then if she shoots Aya instead?  :V

And if she hits one of the generic kappas they lock her out of the kappacave so she can't get to the charging station for her backpack of tricks and she has to drop out of the religious war.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1060 on: May 20, 2013, 09:12:48 PM »
I keep saying Touhou needs villains. If ZUN keeps it up maybe Nitori can be Touhou Darth Vader by 2020.

Nitori:  I find your lack of faith intriguing.

Also Kappa Death Star, best shmup level ever?

Imosa

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1061 on: May 20, 2013, 09:41:25 PM »
@Clarste: I'm not sure what I was going at with that question.
I think I see your point. So you do you think that part of the business between Kanako and the Kappa involves Kanako doing things in return for faith (whatever faith is)? If that's the case then it seems like the Kappa are members of the Moriya religion, and I don't think they are.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1062 on: May 20, 2013, 09:45:01 PM »
Kanako supports the technological development of Gensokyo, that's enough reason for the kappa to support her. They probably don't give a shit about her shrine.

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1063 on: May 20, 2013, 09:49:29 PM »
Well, if Kanako's becoming a god of technology, who would be giving her faith if not the kappa? They're the only ones who care.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1064 on: May 20, 2013, 09:56:15 PM »
Just got home, and suddenly there's like five new pages on this thread. All about Nitori. Just... wow.
Also, yeah, it seems strange seeing all of the Moriyas there. Again, though, the ability to infinitely split oneself is still in play (although I honestly hope Kanako's not playable).
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1065 on: May 20, 2013, 09:58:31 PM »
Well, if Kanako's becoming a god of technology, who would be giving her faith if not the kappa? They're the only ones who care.

 :o

Cyborg Kanako. DO IT ZUN!

Do we know how Reimu and Marisa feel about technology? Reimu is lazy, so I bet she would like modern conveniences. And Marisa likes stockpiling esoteric crap, so I imagine she would love to be able to add boxes of weird foreign outlet adapters and assorted cables to her museum house. The only direct reference to this I can think of is the outside world in Reimu's imagination in Wild And Horned Hermit 14, where she imagines it as a mess of skyscrapers, neon signs, and what looks like a tripod from War Of The Worlds, seemingly implying that she thinks of it as confusing and scary.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1066 on: May 20, 2013, 11:39:35 PM »
Welp, with Nitori's announcement, guess Hatate's not making it in. I mean, her stage will undoubtedly have Hatate in the background: I see Aya in there. Such a shame, too: Hatate desperately needed the screentime. And I still can't get over Shou not being playable.

*prepares flame shield*
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1067 on: May 20, 2013, 11:49:34 PM »
Welp, with Nitori's announcement, guess Hatate's not making it in. I mean, her stage will undoubtedly have Hatate in the background: I see Aya in there. Such a shame, too: Hatate desperately needed the screentime. And I still can't get over Shou not being playable.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1068 on: May 21, 2013, 12:01:06 AM »
Well, the intro scroll clearly depicts Shou among Reimu, Futo, Miko, Unzan, Byakuren and a kappa, all playable so far. Who knows, maybe she will appear next and in turn debunk the whole background character = not playable theory, allowing Moriyas to appear? All those onis would also imply either Suika, Yuugi or possibly
Spoiler:
Kasen
.
Just before today's reveal I was actually expecting Tenshi. I had a hunch that some non-religious characters would appear to spice up the roster, and it's only fair to add the previous final boss, since Suika appeared in SWR. Plus I figured a celestial would be at least semi-involved in religious fight. Though this  kind of wild card I did not expect.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1069 on: May 21, 2013, 01:42:51 AM »
A. Reimu
B. Marisa
C. Ichirin
1. Byakuren
2. Futo
3. Miko
4. Nitori

And 5 to 6 slots to go... 
The list:

Rumia
Hong Meiling
Flandre
Alice
Mystia
Yuuka
Hina
Momiji
Iku
Tenshi
Kisume
Yamame
Parsee
Satori
Rin
Utsuho
Koishi (Side note: Aside from Yuugi, no one from the underground has been seen yet...)
Hatate
Mamizou
Akyu
Kasen
Yorihime
Toyohime
Reisen II
Kosuzu

Well this development throws things into complete chaos...

Imosa

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1070 on: May 21, 2013, 01:51:06 AM »
Well, if Kanako's becoming a god of technology, who would be giving her faith if not the kappa? They're the only ones who care.
I'm sure tons of people care, about something that will make their lives easier. However, consider that faith is belief in something without proper proof. I would like to think that the Kappa are far too practical, to have faith in something.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1071 on: May 21, 2013, 01:56:44 AM »
Regarding splitting, I got most of it from SSiB chapter 6, which is I believe the first place it's mentioned. They make a clear distinction between body and spirit there (with the implication that most gods don't even have bodies in the first place), but I'll admit that maybe I'm interpreting it wrong.
Hm, in 12.3, Suwako says, after a mirror match, "Gods can split themselves infinitely~"; also, in SoPM, her profile says that she often appears in the form of a frog when a portion of her spirit is enshrined somewhere else. They probably can make new bodies wherever a part of their spirit is; most probably just don't bother.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1072 on: May 21, 2013, 01:57:57 AM »
Really, no one's translated her blurb yet? You're slipping, cuc. :P

The River's Handyman - Nitori Kawashiro

The sounds of revelry filled the village.
Influential players fought in the streets,
bringing excitement to the onlookers.
This stimulation and enthusiasm would create converts.
The religion leaders planned to take full advantage of this.
But there was a small band of kappa who did not like religion.

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« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 02:01:43 AM by N-Forza »

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1073 on: May 21, 2013, 02:00:35 AM »
Two "Shinto" (Reimu and Marisa), Two Buddhist (Ichirin and Byakuren), Two Taoists (Futo and Lady Toyosatomimi) and One Not-Religious-Involved (Nitori)

I bet the next girl will be another that barely has any inclination to religion. According to Aya Reiko's list, the most likely choices are (To me):

Mystia (I don't recall seeing her, and could use this popularity thing to promote her band whose name I cant'recall right now)
Hina (The Depressive Atmosphere at the Village could help her to gather curses or something.)
Tenshi (Just because she can)
Koishi (Her being mentioned by Byakuren on SoPM makes her highly likely, plus, she's Koishi :V)
Hatate (We saw Aya... Hatate is yet to be seen)
Mamizou (Resurrected Taoist Vs. Foreign Tanuki Round 2?)
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1074 on: May 21, 2013, 02:01:09 AM »
I'm sure tons of people care, about something that will make their lives easier. However, consider that faith is belief in something without proper proof. I would like to think that the Kappa are far too practical, to have faith in something.
I would say that that is absolutely not the definition of faith being used here. Otherwise the gods might be a bit reluctant to introduce themselves so casually.

Hm, in 12.3, Suwako says, after a mirror match, "Gods can split themselves infinitely~"; also, in SoPM, her profile says that she often appears in the form of a frog when a portion of her spirit is enshrined somewhere else. They probably can make new bodies wherever a part of their spirit is; most probably just don't bother.
Did you actually read SSiB chapter 6? Because they make a pretty big deal of it.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1075 on: May 21, 2013, 02:03:19 AM »
Two "Shinto" (Reimu and Marisa), Two Buddhist (Ichirin and Byakuren), Two Taoists (Futo and Lady Toyosatomimi) and One Not-Religious-Involved (Nitori)

Please remind me how Marisa is a Shinto again? I thought she was allied with the human village, though not necessarily by religion (and at any rate she's Reimu's most frequent pal so of COURSE she's going to get involved. :V )

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1076 on: May 21, 2013, 02:04:41 AM »
I would say that that is absolutely not the definition of faith being used here.

Yeah, the Gensokyo concept of "faith" is belief makes them real, or keeps them real, anyway. So to have faith sustains the existence of the gods.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1077 on: May 21, 2013, 02:06:32 AM »
Two "Shinto" (Reimu and Marisa), Two Buddhist (Ichirin and Byakuren), Two Taoists (Futo and Lady Toyosatomimi) and One Not-Religious-Involved (Nitori)

I bet the next girl will be another that barely has any inclination to religion. According to Aya Reiko's list, the most likely choices are (To me):

Mystia (I don't recall seeing her, and could use this popularity thing to promote her band whose name I cant'recall right now)
Hina (The Depressive Atmosphere at the Village could help her to gather curses or something.)
Tenshi (Just because she can)
Koishi (Her being mentioned by Byakuren on SoPM makes her highly likely, plus, she's Koishi :V)
Hatate (We saw Aya... Hatate is yet to be seen)
Mamizou (Resurrected Taoist Vs. Foreign Tanuki Round 2?)

A Mystia/Kyouko duo character would be the. Best. Possible. Thing.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1078 on: May 21, 2013, 02:16:40 AM »
But there was a small band of kappa who did not like religion.
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Solid SNES Nitori gets my full support freshly squeezed.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #1079 on: May 21, 2013, 02:19:20 AM »
Did you actually read SSiB chapter 6? Because they make a pretty big deal of it.
Yes, I did. In that chapter, Reimu says that gods that have bodies can also infinitely divide their spirit, and that "the relationship between a god's body and spirit is kind of like with a vengeful spirit, it can divide as much as they want, but the original stays the same", which I'll admit I didn't understand very well, but I suppose that it can simply mean that they can't divide their physical body. It doesn't really say if separated portions of their spirit can't take a body of their own. And considering that in Hisoutensoko Suwako splits herself so she can fight herself, and SoPM says that she can take the shape of a frog wherever a portion of her spirit is enshrined... I don't think it's an erroneous affirmation to say that gods can create bodies from separeted portions of their spirit.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 02:25:28 AM by Sagus »
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