Author Topic: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!  (Read 467145 times)

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #510 on: May 06, 2013, 05:21:08 PM »
20 days left
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i hope there will be more than 12 characters playable.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #511 on: May 06, 2013, 05:45:22 PM »
A lot of fighting games have 8 playable chars + an unlockable final boss (in this case, it'll be the silhouette girl). Astra Superstars (the game 13.5 is based on, is one example) so... as for myself, I suppose this will be applied to 13.5 as well.

I think this is a good number to start already. If they want to expand the roster, then they can make additional patches later. Something the additional patches could do is removing relevant characters from the stages' background (such as Nue or Murasa) and making them playable characters. But that's just my idea.

« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 05:48:10 PM by Magic Magica ~★ »

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #512 on: May 06, 2013, 07:30:32 PM »
Personally, I don't quite think that just by having them in the Background automatically disregards them from being Playable.

For Example, in Ougon Musou Kyoku, several, if not all of the playable characters (with the exception of possibly B. Battler) appear in one or two stages as BG. If you select them, the are not there however.

Maybe the same will happen to HM....
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #513 on: May 06, 2013, 08:02:00 PM »
the Palanquin ship became Myouren Temple, and In HM, somehow the temple is back being the Palanquin ship.
Or that could be a different ship.

Personally, I don't quite think that just by having them in the Background automatically disregards them from being Playable.

For Example, in Ougon Musou Kyoku, several, if not all of the playable characters (with the exception of possibly B. Battler) appear in one or two stages as BG. If you select them, the are not there however.

Maybe the same will happen to HM....
As was pointed out previously in this thread, if such a system were to be in place, that would mean that Reimu could appear at the Hakurei Shrine if Marisa and Ichirin was fighting. I even think she'd want to be present if a fight were going on at her shrine. However, she isn't.
This doesn't rule out the possibility to of background characters being removed from stages when fights are going on in that stage. Maybe the feature has yet to be added. However, it puts pressure on the idea.
I don't keep up with fighting games but I do know about this feature from Ougon Musou Kyoku. The question I have is if this is a normal feature in fighting games these days? I'm not sure how hard it would be to implement but if its standard in fighting games then the developers would look like slackers if they didn't include it.

Also, a thought that I'm not sure has been brought up yet. These fights can be determined by how much you please the crowd, right? That's a rather interesting setting for an evil plot to be going on. Like, what if popularity were a feature in Scarlet Weather Rhapsody, who in the crowd would back Tenshi? It makes me think as though big bad, will have to be a little more deceptive. Perhaps she will (do I dare say) masquerade as something a little popular so that she has a chance at winning fights.

Something else: Does ZUN consult anyone on the english names. Is it worth our time trying to think about what a Hopeless Masquerade would be like and how that might be depicted in the story?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 08:07:38 PM by Imosa »

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #514 on: May 06, 2013, 08:26:24 PM »
Something else: Does ZUN consult anyone on the english names. Is it worth our time trying to think about what a Hopeless Masquerade would be like and how that might be depicted in the story?

Consult? You're asking if the guy who names things "Imperishable Night", "Subterranean Animism" and "Perfect Memento in Strict Sense" runs things by an English speaker? Maybe this is just me, but his use of English seems to be very well thought out yet at the same time very unnatural. I can just imagine him poring over of a dictionary for the perfect word that matches the meaning he wants... but then he ends up with "imperishable" instead of "immortal" or "undying" and makes me think of canned foods. "Suwa Foughten Field" sounds kind of weird for a modern English speaker, but the phrase "foughten field" was pretty popular in the 19th century as a poetic way of saying "battlefield".

Anyway, I guess my point is that ZUN definitely had something in mind when he chose that name, and his English is well thought out and not chosen arbitrarily at all, so you can definitely try to read something into it. However, that meaning may not be obvious or intuitive.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #515 on: May 06, 2013, 08:53:20 PM »
The question I have is if this is a normal feature in fighting games these days?

I can see you haven't played many fighting games, but no. It's not a normal feature at all. Most of the fighters doesn't feature playable characters on the background, let alone taking them out from it if you're playing as them.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 08:56:59 PM by Magic Magica ~★ »

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #516 on: May 06, 2013, 09:29:52 PM »
Maybe this is just me, but his use of English seems to be very well thought out yet at the same time very unnatural. I can just imagine him poring over of a dictionary for the perfect word that matches the meaning he wants... but then he ends up with "imperishable" instead of "immortal" or "undying" and makes me think of canned foods.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #517 on: May 06, 2013, 09:33:56 PM »
Consult? You're asking if the guy who names things "Imperishable Night", "Subterranean Animism" and "Perfect Memento in Strict Sense" runs things by an English speaker? Maybe this is just me, but his use of English seems to be very well thought out yet at the same time very unnatural. I can just imagine him poring over of a dictionary for the perfect word that matches the meaning he wants... but then he ends up with "imperishable" instead of "immortal" or "undying" and makes me think of canned foods. "Suwa Foughten Field" sounds kind of weird for a modern English speaker, but the phrase "foughten field" was pretty popular in the 19th century as a poetic way of saying "battlefield".

Anyway, I guess my point is that ZUN definitely had something in mind when he chose that name, and his English is well thought out and not chosen arbitrarily at all, so you can definitely try to read something into it. However, that meaning may not be obvious or intuitive.

Well, in that case, we could describe the Masquerade as Hopeless in which case I think the following will happen: Our big bad is trying to be devious with their evil plan but everyone knows about it and uses it as an excuse to have this religious war. When big bad finally reveals herself everyone will be like "Yeah, that was never going to work from the beginning. You were about as successful as anyone else though, so your consolation prize is a fair fight.". Fair fight concludes and then it's drinks all around to induct a new member to the touhou pantheon.

I can see you haven't played many fighting games, but no. It's not a normal feature at all. Most of the fighters doesn't feature playable characters on the background, let alone taking them out from it if you're playing as them.
That kinda makes me think that the feature will not be included, cool as it may be.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #518 on: May 06, 2013, 10:33:11 PM »
IIRC wasn't the whole Hopeless Masquerade title supposed to be a bit of a jab at U.S. and/or Japanese politics? :V

Also I think 'Imperishable' is supposed to translate as something like 'Neverending' but whether by choice or accident ZUN gave us the delightfully demi-Engrish result we now know and love.

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #519 on: May 06, 2013, 11:12:50 PM »
IIRC wasn't the whole Hopeless Masquerade title supposed to be a bit of a jab at U.S. and/or Japanese politics? :V

Also I think 'Imperishable' is supposed to translate as something like 'Neverending' but whether by choice or accident ZUN gave us the delightfully demi-Engrish result we now know and love.

I think it's supposed to be a pun, referring to both the everlasting night and the immortal characters (Eirin, Kaguya, Mokou) who are the subject of the plot. Both the immortal night and the night of the immortals. Which is really kind of clever. The problem being the hidden connotations of "imperishable" in English. I mean, if you look it up in a dictionary, the word itself is technically appropriate, it just sounds like an odd thing to say.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #520 on: May 07, 2013, 04:51:32 AM »
I never saw any problems with the English subtitles, barring missing "the"s. How does "Imperishable Night" sound awkward in the slightest?
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #521 on: May 07, 2013, 07:15:39 AM »
After reading too much tv tropes, I am now convinced that Satsuki Rin will finally make an appearance as the member of Taoist faction....
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #522 on: May 07, 2013, 07:39:41 AM »
After reading too much tv tropes, I am now convinced that Satsuki Rin will finally make an appearance as the member of Taoist faction....
That would be really cool. Why do you think that?

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #523 on: May 07, 2013, 07:45:17 AM »
That would be really cool. Why do you think that?
With no basis at all:
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Contrived Coincidence: Wild Mass Guessing spawned from Rin Satsuki has either seemingly manifested in another game, or was too good to be true. Among a few of them are how the Japanese fandom believed she was a Taoist, due to her carrying an erhu, and being assumed a Qilin (sometimes romanized as "Kirin", which supports the romanization of her name, Satsuki Rin), which is primarily represented as a Chinese deity excelling in healing. Cue Imperishable Night and Ten Desires, with their focus on a nurse (HELP ME, EIRIN!) and Taoism, respectively, and her popularity has reignited.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #524 on: May 07, 2013, 12:42:31 PM »
I never saw any problems with the English subtitles, barring missing "the"s. How does "Imperishable Night" sound awkward in the slightest?

Imperishable Night isn't awkward. But in terms of English problems, "DOUBLE SPOIER" springs to mind.

His English is likely much better than my Japanese though so I'm not bothered!

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #525 on: May 07, 2013, 02:12:55 PM »
This doesn't rule out the possibility to of background characters being removed from stages when fights are going on in that stage. Maybe the feature has yet to be added. However, it puts pressure on the idea.
I don't keep up with fighting games but I do know about this feature from Ougon Musou Kyoku. The question I have is if this is a normal feature in fighting games these days? I'm not sure how hard it would be to implement but if its standard in fighting games then the developers would look like slackers if they didn't include it.

As far as I know, the only fighting game that comes to mind with that feature is Tekken 5 with Lee Chaolan appearing in the background of the pool stage and not present when you select him. I do hope that some background chars, like Nazrin, would be playable.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #526 on: May 07, 2013, 04:03:54 PM »
Street Fighter IV, Marvel vs. Capcom 3, and Mortal Kombat 9 also do this background thing.

However, the issue with this game is that characters like Sakuya, Remilia, and Yukari have little importance to the plot of this game, and it seems obvious that this game's plot decides the roster.  Unless the aforementioned characters can contribute something to the religion issue, they have no reason to participate in the fights.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #527 on: May 07, 2013, 05:33:06 PM »
it seems obvious that this game's plot decides the roster.

Hence why I was saying... the extra patches could take the RELEVANT characters out of the background.

There's no reason for someone such as Sunny Milk or Lunasa Prismriver to become playable.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #528 on: May 07, 2013, 09:11:23 PM »
Hence why I was saying... the extra patches could take the RELEVANT characters out of the background.

There's no reason for someone such as Sunny Milk or Lunasa Prismriver to become playable.

Which characters are relevant though? None of the ones seen in the background so far seem relevant, except maybe Yukari if you work under the assumption that she's involved in everything.

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #529 on: May 07, 2013, 09:36:59 PM »
Even Yukari seems kinda like she wouldn'nt want to get directly involved in this sort of thing. Her win quotes in Hosoutensoku seem to imply to me that she finds Suwako and her schemes rather... distasteful, and I wouldn't be surprised if she was a bit turned off by this whole faith pissing contest in general (not turned off enough to pass up some fun oportunities to spectate some pretty matches, though)

I guess you could consider Nazrin and Murasa relevant? But I'm sure HM will have way more than enough UFO and TD characters, already.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #530 on: May 07, 2013, 09:37:37 PM »
Which characters are relevant though? None of the ones seen in the background so far seem relevant, except maybe Yukari if you work under the assumption that she's involved in everything.
Well, there is in the entire Myouren crowd. I kinda wanted to play as Murasa.

However, the issue with this game is that characters like Sakuya, Remilia, and Yukari have little importance to the plot of this game, and it seems obvious that this game's plot decides the roster.  Unless the aforementioned characters can contribute something to the religion issue, they have no reason to participate in the fights.
Again, the entire Myouren crowd could be relevant but I'm willing to drop that issue. The bigger issue is that playable characters that should be in the backgrounds aren't there when they should be. Should we expect to see Ichirin, Byakuren, or Shou on the ship? Should we expect to see Reimu, or Marisa at the Hakurei Shrine? If the answer to either of these two questions is yes then the feature has already failed. I for one would like to see Reimu at the shrine.

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #531 on: May 07, 2013, 11:43:14 PM »
It's possible they simply haven't gotten that feauture of adding and removing background characters depending on who's fighting added yet. When the original gameplay preview of HM was released (but not the actual trial), the background was entirely empty. They didn't add background characters at all until later, so it's possible the background in the trial version is still incomplete.

....I wouldnt' hold your breath over it, though.

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #532 on: May 07, 2013, 11:56:43 PM »
Well, they've got 20 days to add it, so they'd better get cracking.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #533 on: May 08, 2013, 12:31:52 AM »
Which characters are relevant though? None of the ones seen in the background so far seem relevant, except maybe Yukari if you work under the assumption that she's involved in everything.

Really? What about Murasa then?

She was the one that unsealed Byakuren, and probably the one that loves her the most out of the whole Myouren crew. Of course she'd want to help Byakuren spread Buddhism.

The same could be applied to any other of her underlings. Byakuren is seen as their savior after all.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #534 on: May 08, 2013, 01:36:29 AM »
Really? What about Murasa then?

She was the one that unsealed Byakuren, and probably the one that loves her the most out of the whole Myouren crew. Of course she'd want to help Byakuren spread Buddhism.

The same could be applied to any other of her underlings. Byakuren is seen as their savior after all.

Did you forget the part where Minamitsu is possibly a mass-murderer and definitely ignores the teachings of Buddhism? She loves Byakuren, sure, but she's like the worst Buddhist in the gang. Also one of the main reasons people are still distrustful of the temple. She doesn't care about the religion at all. Contrast Shou, who's their main faith-gatherer. Even Mamizou is closer to a wild card.

That said, Ichirin got in and I wouldn't have expected that, but the fact that she did merely makes it less likely for Minamitsu to have a place.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #535 on: May 08, 2013, 01:47:49 AM »
Did you forget the part where Minamitsu is possibly a mass-murderer and definitely ignores the teachings of Buddhism? She loves Byakuren, sure, but she's like the worst Buddhist in the gang. Also one of the main reasons people are still distrustful of the temple. She doesn't care about the religion at all. Contrast Shou, who's their main faith-gatherer. Even Mamizou is closer to a wild card.

That said, Ichirin got in and I wouldn't have expected that, but the fact that she did merely makes it less likely for Minamitsu to have a place.

Sure, that's convincing enough.

Well... but as for Shou, it's extremely unlikely she won't be playable. Mainly for 3 reasons:

1) She appears on the intro.
2) Doesn't appear on any stage background.
3) Is the main faith-gatherer of the crew, as you have pointed out.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #536 on: May 08, 2013, 02:24:11 AM »
Well... but as for Shou, it's extremely unlikely she won't be playable. Mainly for 3 reasons:

1) She appears on the intro.
2) Doesn't appear on any stage background.
3) Is the main faith-gatherer of the crew, as you have pointed out.
I'm sorry, that makes no sense. Shouldn't that mean she's more likely TO be playable? I mean, the full version isn't even out yet; the background characters do not at all determine the final roster.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #537 on: May 08, 2013, 02:40:35 AM »

It's possible they simply haven't gotten that feauture of adding and removing background characters depending on who's fighting added yet. When the original gameplay preview of HM was released (but not the actual trial), the background was entirely empty. They didn't add background characters at all until later, so it's possible the background in the trial version is still incomplete.

....I wouldnt' hold your breath over it, though.
Yeah, it seems to me like it's something a little integral to making the backgrounds.

1) She appears on the intro.
2) Doesn't appear on any stage background.
3) Is the main faith-gatherer of the crew, as you have pointed out.
I don't see how 1 and 2 are relevant here.
2 in particular (since it's what we're talking about here), if having someone in the background doesn't lower their chances of being a playable characters, then surely having someone not be in the background doesn't raise their chances of being a playable character.

I'm sorry, that makes no sense. Shouldn't that mean she's more likely TO be playable?
There's a double negative there.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #538 on: May 08, 2013, 04:50:02 AM »
BTW, does anyone remember when Tasofro started the roster reveal for SWR compared to the release of the game?

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #539 on: May 08, 2013, 05:01:01 AM »
Personally I think it makes sense for the developers to intentionally choose background characters so that they don't overlap with the main cast, since the whole background-altering thing would be a hassle. Besides, it's not like they have a limited cast of characters to choose from for the background.