Author Topic: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!  (Read 467258 times)

Mayson

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #390 on: April 30, 2013, 08:22:52 PM »
Quote
I need to think about this a little. That "Gensokyo as a place where not everyone is important" seems like something that should be established but something about ZUN's characters makes this very awkward.
The early stage characters are in a strange place in my opinion. [...] So on one hand shes one of these unimportant characters and on the other she is her own character.
Actually, it makes sense. Let's just look at our own world. Everyone has his own hobbies, professions and friend circles he operates in. You could argue that everyone outside of these boundaries is at first glance just "more humans". At the same time, everyone is his own personality and behaves as such, has certain physical features and state of minds.

It makes sense to flesh even random characters out, it makes the world more lively. Worlds where there are just the "main characters" and "plot characters" and everyone else is villager X / Youkai Y / Trespasser Z are not very immersive because of the lack of existing "personalities".


Quote
However, she also sells grilled lamprey and sings in a punk rock band.
Is this something from fandom? I never heard of that...
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 08:25:42 PM by Mayson »

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #391 on: April 30, 2013, 08:43:47 PM »
something from fandom? I never heard of that...
It is indeed canon. She was seen pushing around her food cart in Oriental Sacred Place and is shown doing vocals in a band with Kyouko in Symposium of Post Mysticism.
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Mayson

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #392 on: April 30, 2013, 08:58:12 PM »
It is indeed canon. She was seen pushing around her food cart in Oriental Sacred Place and is shown doing vocals in a band with Kyouko in Symposium of Post Mysticism.
You learn something new everyday I guess.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #393 on: April 30, 2013, 09:41:41 PM »
Playable EX-Keine or bust.

If Tasogare gave me executive control over the cast list this would be Imperishable Night Vs. Subterranean Animism: The Fighting Game Also Incidentally Some Buddhists Are Here Or Whatever (or INVSATFGAISBAHOW for short). But they didn't, so I would totally settle for just Keine and Yuugi in an otherwise religious war-centric cast... ;)
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #394 on: April 30, 2013, 10:23:56 PM »
It'd be nice if there were more generic enemies than just fairies all the time. Though I guess there were at least lots of Hell Ravens in Utsuho's stage.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #395 on: April 30, 2013, 10:32:51 PM »
Also rabbits in IN's 5th stage (dunno about the 6th, never got there), and Divine Spirits in TD. But yeah, more generic youkai enemies would be interesting.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #396 on: April 30, 2013, 10:41:55 PM »
The Hell Crows in SA were recycled from the non-Hell Crows in MoF.

commandercool

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #397 on: April 30, 2013, 10:43:19 PM »
There are also kedamas, books (are those EoSD exclusive? I think they are), yin-yang orbs, and variant fairies like UFO, zombie, and Makai fairies.
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Validon98

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #398 on: April 30, 2013, 11:55:51 PM »
There are also kedamas, books (are those EoSD exclusive? I think they are), yin-yang orbs, and variant fairies like UFO, zombie, and Makai fairies.

Don't forget the "cursed" fairies from TD (they're the ones that hold the spirits and look like they're really old or undead looking). Also, the books are unique to EoSD, disregarding fangames.
There's also all of the unique enemies in the PC-98 games. We had a LOT of those (random cannons from the sides in SoEW's first stage, anyone?).
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #399 on: May 01, 2013, 03:05:29 AM »
Time to talk about the silhouette. We've got some good guesses in this thread!

The following ideas are a result of my discussion with friends, although people here and on Japanese forums have come to similar conclusions.

Almost unquestionable:
The shapes to the upper left of the logo are her fingers. She is holding one hand up, with her palm pointing to the sky.

Unconfirmed but likely:
1. The floating objects resemble masks: flat objects convexing on one side.

2. Reading of her pose depends on which hand she is holding up. If it's the right hand, then her pose probably resembles Ran's SC pose, with right arm up, left arm at her chest.

More likely, it's the left hand. She is stretching her right arm out while holding something in her hand, and putting her left hand up near her face. Her legs are also crossed. She is dancing

3. What has both masks and dancing? A masquerade.

Speculation:
There are two related important activities in Japan that involves masks and dancing: kagura, the Shinto ritual dance, and noh theatre.

A ritual dance has been shown in Touhou before, when Yorihime summoned Amaterasu. The HM character's dance might be even closer to a real shrine maiden's, since she's holding some artifact in her right hand. Alternatively, it could be another mask in her hand. Yes, she is very likely a Shinto shaman/priestess, just like Reimu, Sanae, Yorihime and Futo.

The most famous kagura dance in mythology is that of Ame-no-uzume, which is one of the three things that caused Amaterasu to come out of hiding from a cave. Later Ame-no-uzume would serve under what would become the imperial family, and in one legend, marry Saruta-hiko and begot the tengu race.


we've also brought up Ame-no-sagume. She's a servant of Ame-no-wakahiko, the first messenger Amaterasu sent to Izumo. She has also been speculated by scholars to be a symbolization of shaman. In folklore, she may have become the demon Amanojaku, which we've already discussed here.

Considering the sacred kashiwa leaf in the logo, associated with the high priests, the HM character may indeed be a messenger from high above, just like Ame-no-uzume or Ame-no-sagume. She's also likely to have a strong noh motif.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 03:26:47 AM by cuc »
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #400 on: May 01, 2013, 03:36:15 AM »
If I had to guess just based on the premise of the game I would assume the new character is going to be aligned with Miko. If the game is about a religious war and Taoism is supposed to be a competitive faction they really need at least one more big gun. They have the fewest characters, and I believe the weakest ones as well (although some of that is based on in-game difficulty, which shouldn't really count). If you're going to drag actual deduction into it though, you're probably a lot closer to right than I am. ;)
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #401 on: May 01, 2013, 04:17:40 AM »
I've always seen Miko as the strongest, personally. Not because of her danmaku or anything, but just because of who she is. She's got that whole Imperial Divine Right natural-leader thing. Emphasis has been put on her talent from an early age and all that. Byakuren's just a random youkai magician with some eclectic followers (although I guess you might say she has strength in numbers) and Kanako is... well I guess she's a god, but she's also a god who recently ran into some faith troubles and make a big gamble coming to Gensokyo, where most of her plans seem to fail or run into setbacks. She's a formerly powerful god on the decline. While by contrast Miko has only gotten more divine and legendary since her "death'".

I'll admit there's nothing particularly canonical about this, it's the just the impression I get of their characters. Also Seiga's fighting off assassins from Hell and laughing it off, if you want to count her as part of the group.

Also, doesn't Shinto have less than the Taoists? Sanae, Kanako, Suwako. I doubt Reimu's fighting on their side, but even if she is that just ties them.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 04:19:13 AM by Clarste »

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #402 on: May 01, 2013, 04:19:50 AM »
You learn something new everyday I guess.
I thought Mystia selling grilled lampreys in canon is common knowledge by now...

cuc

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #403 on: May 01, 2013, 05:17:41 AM »
For a kagura pose. See SSIB Ch 16 P 24, where Yorihime summoned Ame-no-uzume onto herself, then by proxy summoned Amaterasu through kagura.

For a proper kagura artifact - a thing full of bells, see SSIB Ch 18 P 11.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #404 on: May 01, 2013, 07:21:41 AM »
Sure would be interesting if she was a dancer.  If those things floating around her are really masks, imagine if gameplay wise she would change stances among with masks?  Geez, this is all making me look forward to the 25th even more!

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #405 on: May 01, 2013, 02:10:06 PM »
Sorry to bring this up again, but I'm still very shocked about it being in i7..
And I can't see any answers or responds that justify this..

So is that for real?
Someone?
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #406 on: May 01, 2013, 02:26:50 PM »
I don't think anyone's taking it seriously because it's absurd.

Giratina93

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #407 on: May 01, 2013, 02:37:28 PM »
Yeah, that kind of requirement is just... they have to be joking. There's no way that's really the case.

As for our mysterious silhouette, if she does have masks and dancing... well, that would be quite interesting. I personally would have loved to see a Yamata-no-Orochi based character, and am actually surprised ZUN hasn't done one yet... But whatever our mysterious antagonist is, I most likely won't be complaining.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #408 on: May 01, 2013, 03:00:19 PM »
I've always seen Miko as the strongest, personally. Not because of her danmaku or anything, but just because of who she is. She's got that whole Imperial Divine Right natural-leader thing. Emphasis has been put on her talent from an early age and all that. Byakuren's just a random youkai magician with some eclectic followers (although I guess you might say she has strength in numbers) and Kanako is... well I guess she's a god, but she's also a god who recently ran into some faith troubles and make a big gamble coming to Gensokyo, where most of her plans seem to fail or run into setbacks. She's a formerly powerful god on the decline. While by contrast Miko has only gotten more divine and legendary since her "death'".

I'll admit there's nothing particularly canonical about this, it's the just the impression I get of their characters. Also Seiga's fighting off assassins from Hell and laughing it off, if you want to count her as part of the group.

Also, doesn't Shinto have less than the Taoists? Sanae, Kanako, Suwako. I doubt Reimu's fighting on their side, but even if she is that just ties them.

A lot of time in-game was spent establishing Byakruen as a big deal, what with her casually stealing everyone's shot types and upshowing them. She definitely has strength in numbers, and quite a few of her followers (Mamizou, probably Nue, and possibly Shou) seem to be exceptionally strong in-universe, along with having very useful non-shooting powers.

Miko's special ability probably makes her more dangerous than was really evident in-game, but she's fairly light on followers right now, not to mention less established in the world and Byakruen and likely cut off from a majority of the people who would still be loyal to her as well (similarly to Byakuren, but without the ideology that's attractive to both Youkai and humans that I bet makes making friends a lot easier). Although I suppose Miko does have name recognition, so that might be enough to rope her some new followers.

Kanako doesn't seem exceptionally strong in canon, but she is apparently quite a schemer, and there are theoretically way more Shinto gods floating around Gensokyo than just the relatively few we've seen. Not to mention that their numbers include at the very least Hina and the Aki sisters (who would be a weird choice for a fighting game now that I think about it). And I did kind of automatically count Reimu as being on their side, but you're right that there's nothing really indicating that she would side with them. It would be pretty cool to finally see her shrine's god though.

So with literal in-canon numbers we have seven for Shinto (not counting Reimu but counting the Akis as separate characters), nine for Buddhism (counting Ichirin and Unzan as the same character) and five for Taoism. Given that I would be pretty surprised if Soga or Yoshika became full-on independent playable characters, that's slim pickings for Miko. I suppose three characters for each side would be enough, but numerically and possibly in the story Miko does seem to be lagging behind the other groups.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #409 on: May 01, 2013, 03:02:40 PM »
I thought Mystia selling grilled lampreys in canon is common knowledge by now...

Pretty sure Mayson was talking about Mystia singing in a punk band.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #410 on: May 01, 2013, 03:41:31 PM »
I honestly think Reimu will be representing Shintoism if only for the fact that she is still a Shinto shrine maiden and the fact that her title in this game is "The Advocate of the Eight Million." However, I think she and perhaps Marisa will be their own faction representing not only Shintoism, but the Human Village as well (Marisa's title is "The Human-Representative Magician," which would support that). Remember: Reimu is concerned about things going on in the Human Village, so I think she's not only doing this to raise her shrine's popularity, but out of actual concern for what's going on. Whatever the case, I don't think she'll represent Shintoism in the sense that she's aligned with the Moriya Shrine, but she'll represent it independently.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #411 on: May 01, 2013, 03:46:48 PM »
I've always seen Miko as the strongest, personally. Not because of her danmaku or anything, but just because of who she is. She's got that whole Imperial Divine Right natural-leader thing. Emphasis has been put on her talent from an early age and all that. Byakuren's just a random youkai magician with some eclectic followers (although I guess you might say she has strength in numbers) and Kanako is... well I guess she's a god, but she's also a god who recently ran into some faith troubles and make a big gamble coming to Gensokyo, where most of her plans seem to fail or run into setbacks. She's a formerly powerful god on the decline. While by contrast Miko has only gotten more divine and legendary since her "death'".

I'll admit there's nothing particularly canonical about this, it's the just the impression I get of their characters. Also Seiga's fighting off assassins from Hell and laughing it off, if you want to count her as part of the group.

Also, doesn't Shinto have less than the Taoists? Sanae, Kanako, Suwako. I doubt Reimu's fighting on their side, but even if she is that just ties them.

The Moriya Shrine also sorta has Utsuho and Satori, though how loyal those two are to the Moriyas as opposed to themselves is uncertain.

The Buddhists have numbers and Byakuren has enhancement magic, which means that they've got both a lot of able bodies and a major force multiplier.

The Taoists...Well, I dunno what they have going for them, especially since apparently Seiga went her own way after TD. I think Miko's supposed to be some sort of genius-level strategist IIRC, though, and there's Kasen, though she largely stays off on her own.

Validon98

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #412 on: May 01, 2013, 03:52:33 PM »
and there's Kasen, though she largely stays off on her own.

I honestly don't think Kasen will get too involved (she's not even a real hermit, so even if she did get involved she wouldn't be on the side of the Taoists I would think). Maybe she might be on Byakuren's side, but that's just the whole "equal humans and youkai" thing. You're right about the Buddhist faction, though: They seem VERY capable and in an actual battle I think they would come out on top from sheer manpower combined with Byakuren's magic.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #413 on: May 01, 2013, 04:19:28 PM »
I honestly don't think Kasen will get too involved (she's not even a real hermit, so even if she did get involved she wouldn't be on the side of the Taoists I would think).

I...Honestly did not know that. What is she then, a part-time hermit? :V

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #414 on: May 01, 2013, 04:35:00 PM »
We don't know what she is. That chapter of WaHH ended on that cliffhanger.
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AnonymousPondScum

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #415 on: May 01, 2013, 04:41:38 PM »
Oooooh, okay. I missed that chapter, apparently. :getdown:

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« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 04:48:44 PM by Wild Witchy West »

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #416 on: May 01, 2013, 04:50:30 PM »
We don't know what she is. That chapter of WaHH ended on that cliffhanger.
Though it's heavily implied she's an oni.

game2011

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #417 on: May 01, 2013, 05:27:15 PM »
Pretty sure Mayson was talking about Mystia singing in a punk band.
If so, then sorry for misunderstanding...

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #418 on: May 01, 2013, 05:41:51 PM »
I honestly think Reimu will be representing Shintoism if only for the fact that she is still a Shinto shrine maiden and the fact that her title in this game is "The Advocate of the Eight Million."

Yeah, I think we can pretty much count on that. Reimu is Shinto, and seems to react to other faiths - even Buddhism - with grudging tolerance at best.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #419 on: May 01, 2013, 06:03:45 PM »
Just 20 days and a little before the final release. I can barely wait.

Pretty sure the silhouette girl will be the only new character on the game... since creating sprites/frames for a lot of different characters would be too time consuming. But that's still good anyway, at least better than nothing.

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