Author Topic: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!  (Read 467090 times)

Formless God

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #360 on: April 27, 2013, 01:18:06 PM »
Floatthings are probably masks judging from the geometry.
Not sure what the hell is going on in the area around the kanji for East.
I hope she isn't wearing baggy pants.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #361 on: April 27, 2013, 01:26:43 PM »
Floating things are lotus blossoms, and she is wearing poofy pants.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Zil

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #362 on: April 27, 2013, 02:08:40 PM »
Yeah it's gotta be poofy pants. That or ZUN drew the skirt. The blobs are masks.

Actually I wonder if she might be some kind of goofy mime character, like Gogo from Final Fantasy.

Maiden Synnae ミ☆

  • Wizard Maiden
  • ★☆★☆★☆★☆★☆★☆
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #363 on: April 27, 2013, 02:50:52 PM »
cuc said the character might have strong links with shintoism.

If the thing she is holding is really a jeweled pagoda... then, how many shinto gods/figures are usually seen holding one?

Sweetness and love~ ♥

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #364 on: April 27, 2013, 02:53:22 PM »
I think it's safe to say that most Gensokyans have strong links with Shinto; even the ones who aren't Shinto per se.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Imosa

  • Any sufficiently advanced technology
  • is indistinguishable from magic
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #365 on: April 27, 2013, 03:08:59 PM »
Good observation. ZUN said during the Dawn of Touhou lecture: the early stages are for worldbuilding, and the later stages are the main story.
Ok, if that's the case, I guess I would ask if those characters have been properly fulfilling the roll of "worldbuilding", and is that roll even valuable for the series. If the early stage touhous are part of the world but are never interacted with, then aren't they just building a world we never see?

Maiden Synnae ミ☆

  • Wizard Maiden
  • ★☆★☆★☆★☆★☆★☆
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #366 on: April 27, 2013, 03:17:35 PM »
Ok, if that's the case, I guess I would ask if those characters have been properly fulfilling the roll of "worldbuilding", and is that roll even valuable for the series. If the early stage touhous are part of the world but are never interacted with, then aren't they just building a world we never see?

Those stage 1 ~ 2 characters for the most part are simply not important. You can take them out of the game and there won't be any difference to the plot.

They're just there not to leave the stage without a boss. If Zun were to jump straight to the main story, the games would be too short, having less than six stages.

Some latter stages bosses sometimes aren't necessarily important neither, such as the prismrivers.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 03:19:43 PM by Magic Magica ~★ »

Sweetness and love~ ♥

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #367 on: April 27, 2013, 03:31:18 PM »
Suddenly, the idea of floating masks has given me another idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannya

Suddenly, Parsee  as an antagonist makes some sense xD

game2011

  • mineiptXD
    • Supreme ??asual Dating Verified Women
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #368 on: April 27, 2013, 03:40:09 PM »
Am I the only person here who thought of the character being related to Hina when I saw the silhouette?  Her stance sort of looks like Hina if the latter is facing the screen, and the balls of fire around her makes me think of misfortunes that take the form of purple fireballs, like how when a person is depressed in animes/mangas, such things are drawn floating around him/her for a comical effect.

Gpop

  • Subconscious Rose Girl, Koishi
  • FIRST PLACE BAYBEE!
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #369 on: April 27, 2013, 03:54:57 PM »
Okay, it looks like... roses. Really, Koishi imagery is comig to my mind just now. Flaming roses? Don't know how to tackle this one. Although I got a concept for the events of the game, although this is pure speculation of course.

I like this prediction yup.

cuc

  • *
  • Probably won't respond 'til this mess is sorted o?
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #370 on: April 27, 2013, 04:23:41 PM »
I think it's safe to say that most Gensokyans have strong links with Shinto; even the ones who aren't Shinto per se.
Well, to be more specific, kashiwa leaves are foremostly used to wrap around offerings to Shinto gods.

Ok, if that's the case, I guess I would ask if those characters have been properly fulfilling the roll of "worldbuilding", and is that roll even valuable for the series. If the early stage touhous are part of the world but are never interacted with, then aren't they just building a world we never see?
Like you, I'd much prefer the story to have more interactions, to sympathize with everyone, not restricted to the handful of characters ZUN actually cares about. However, I know what worldbuilding means here. These characters are not important on their own. Instead, they give you a feel for what the Touhou universe in general is like. IN has shown the night of Gensokyo, MoF has explored the Youkai Mountain, and SA has introduced the underground.

Unlike previous shooting games, UFO and TD are tightly plotted, with everyone contributing to the story (even Kogasa), that is true.
Touhou Fantasy News: twitter

KrackoCloud

  • I don't mean to be greedy...
  • ... but white rice is my favorite food.
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #371 on: April 27, 2013, 05:35:32 PM »
Can't help but see masks.

Vyrien

  • Your maiden walls
  • *
  • ...heheheheh
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #372 on: April 27, 2013, 05:58:04 PM »
They look to me like Orin's flaming skulls.
Congregation of Impertinent Drama Queens.


Art threadLivestream | Pixiv

Zakari

  • This loli contains Autism
  • Autistic Loli
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #373 on: April 27, 2013, 06:15:30 PM »
the new official character has

>Strange rose-shaped fire
>poofy pants
>hairstyle that looks like from the Circus

not sure if a Loli or another Old Hag?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 06:18:11 PM by Zakari »

Kosachi

  • Te-Te-Te-Te-Tenko
  • Hinanai Tenko~
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #374 on: April 27, 2013, 07:39:03 PM »
It's really not surprising if the objects floating behind "Mystery Character X" are masks considering the game is called Hopeless Masquereade. Last time I checked, you can't have a masquerade without masks.

Even if you look at it from the perspective of the other definition of the word, it still makes sense since a mask can be used to appear as someone or something else.
I finally got ahead!

Imosa

  • Any sufficiently advanced technology
  • is indistinguishable from magic
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #375 on: April 28, 2013, 03:42:08 AM »
Like you, I'd much prefer the story to have more interactions, to sympathize with everyone, not restricted to the handful of characters ZUN actually cares about. However, I know what worldbuilding means here. These characters are not important on their own. Instead, they give you a feel for what the Touhou universe in general is like. IN has shown the night of Gensokyo, MoF has explored the Youkai Mountain, and SA has introduced the underground.
Fleshing out his universe is a fine endeavor but is it the best endeavor? Is the return on a large number of 2 dimensional characters greater then the return on a smaller number of 3 dimensional characters? I'm not so sure it is, certainly not if we were only looking at the cannon material.
However, I would say that the only reason I think he could (and perhaps should) continue this practice, is because the fan base can latch on to these characters and make some pretty neat stuff. If it weren't for Touhou Tuesdays I'd never think about Wriggle, if it weren't for Little Reimu I'd never think about Rumia, and if it weren't for... so many people... I'd never about Cirno.

Incidentally, the fiction that maximizes plot relevance per number of characters is All You Zombies.

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #376 on: April 28, 2013, 03:59:11 AM »
Well, as pointed out by me and others, ZUN seems to be bucking the trend with more recent games anyways. Kogasa was the only passerby youkai in UFO and even she was kinda important to the plot to show how youkai could be picked on, too (and also showed up in the extra stage. A first for a passerby youkai). And Ten Desires didn't have a single passerby youkai at all (well, unless you count Kogasa's reappearance, but even she at least interacted with the main plot).
« Last Edit: April 28, 2013, 04:00:46 AM by Tiamat »

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #377 on: April 29, 2013, 12:34:39 AM »
See, again, I don't think two consecutive games is a "trend". Sounds more like a coincidence.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Imosa

  • Any sufficiently advanced technology
  • is indistinguishable from magic
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #378 on: April 29, 2013, 01:44:32 AM »
I agree with Yuki Mori. However, I'm not really worried either way. I could agree with both decisions.

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #379 on: April 29, 2013, 02:56:55 AM »
See, again, I don't think two consecutive games is a "trend". Sounds more like a coincidence.


Who said it was a trend?  I said he was "bucking the trend". That's like, the opposite of a trend.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #380 on: April 29, 2013, 03:04:43 AM »
Who said it was a trend?  I said he was "bucking the trend". That's like, the opposite of a trend.

Not to spend too much time splitting this hair too finely, but you are saying that, because of two similar things that happened in two consecutive games, we can draw the conclusion that ZUN is taking a new direction. You are identifying a pattern of behavior and yes, that is a trend. Though you used the phrase "bucking the trend", this isn't actually the opposite of a trend.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #381 on: April 29, 2013, 03:30:01 AM »
Not to spend too much time splitting this hair too finely, but you are saying that, because of two similar things that happened in two consecutive games, we can draw the conclusion that ZUN is taking a new direction. You are identifying a pattern of behavior and yes, that is a trend. Though you used the phrase "bucking the trend", this isn't actually the opposite of a trend.

Not really. The new "trend" isn't a trend. In UFO, Nazrin is related to the rest of the main antagonists' group, but in Ten Desires, Yuyuko is not nor is Kyouko.  So as you can see, there is no new trend started. Just an old trend ended. In either case, there is no more trend.  A trend ending does not necessarily create a new trend.

What YOU should be saying instead is "I don't think the old trend is ending", not "I don't think two consecutive games is a trend."

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #382 on: April 29, 2013, 08:52:57 AM »
Well, as pointed out by me and others, ZUN seems to be bucking the trend with more recent games anyways. Kogasa was the only passerby youkai in UFO and even she was kinda important to the plot to show how youkai could be picked on, too (and also showed up in the extra stage. A first for a passerby youkai). And Ten Desires didn't have a single passerby youkai at all (well, unless you count Kogasa's reappearance, but even she at least interacted with the main plot).

I would call Kyouko a passerby youkai in TD. She didn't really serve any purpose in the plot, she was just a generic youkai hanging out at the temple. She served the worldbuilding purpose of showing that Myourenji was actually attracting new followers, but that they were still youkai at heart. But she's ultimately unrelated to anything going on other than living there. She's as much a passerby as Nitori or Parsee.

As for "wide vs tall" character development, I can sympathize with the idea of seeing fewer people in more detail, and I certainly tune out whenever people start talking about uninteresting characters like Yamame or Cirno, but isn't that what the databooks and such are for? Also side materials like the manga. They let you focus in on characters who may be unimportant but flesh out Gensokyo as a place where not everyone is important. That's something I care about.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #383 on: April 29, 2013, 12:16:24 PM »
As for "wide vs tall" character development, I can sympathize with the idea of seeing fewer people in more detail, and I certainly tune out whenever people start talking about uninteresting characters like Yamame or Cirno, but isn't that what the databooks and such are for? Also side materials like the manga. They let you focus in on characters who may be unimportant but flesh out Gensokyo as a place where not everyone is important. That's something I care about.

This is my sentiment exactly.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Ikari

  • I'm just so charismatic
  • It's turning into derp
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #384 on: April 30, 2013, 01:25:17 PM »
Purely illogical fantasy: Koishi in the game.

What will probably happen: New final boss which will be awesome anyway.

Gpop

  • Subconscious Rose Girl, Koishi
  • FIRST PLACE BAYBEE!
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #385 on: April 30, 2013, 01:47:35 PM »
Purely illogical fantasy: Koishi in the game.
You're mad

That is totally logical. You  probably haven't noticed yet :V

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #386 on: April 30, 2013, 03:56:42 PM »
HEY EVERYONE GPOP REALLY LIKES KOISHI

NO SERIOUSLY HE DOES

REALLY

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

AnonymousPondScum

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #387 on: April 30, 2013, 04:04:06 PM »
Playable EX-Keine or bust.

Validon98

  • Deathguard Night Sparrow
  • *
  • Harbingers, yo.
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #388 on: April 30, 2013, 05:28:29 PM »
HEY EVERYONE GPOP REALLY LIKES KOISHI

NO SERIOUSLY HE DOES

REALLY

On a lesser note, he likes her more than Demo. Am I cool with that? I guess so. It's not like she (Demo) has too much of an official backstory... yet.
But enough derailing. I'm just excited for this to be coming out within a month! Hopefully they'll start releasing roster information soon, because I'm a bit curious (read: very curious) to who's on board. I predict at the very least Sanae, maybe either Suwako or Kanako (or both), Miko, Futo, Byakuren, and perhaps Seiga. Those are the most obvious, but you never know who's going to be in it.
Derping at Touhou since June 2012, derping at RPing Touhou since Feburary 2013.

Devil of Decline Partial English Gameplay Patch!
Let's Play Nightmare of Rebellion!

Imosa

  • Any sufficiently advanced technology
  • is indistinguishable from magic
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #389 on: April 30, 2013, 06:05:59 PM »
As for "wide vs tall" character development, I can sympathize with the idea of seeing fewer people in more detail, and I certainly tune out whenever people start talking about uninteresting characters like Yamame or Cirno, but isn't that what the databooks and such are for? Also side materials like the manga. They let you focus in on characters who may be unimportant but flesh out Gensokyo as a place where not everyone is important. That's something I care about.
I need to think about this a little. That "Gensokyo as a place where not everyone is important" seems like something that should be established but something about ZUN's characters makes this very awkward.
The early stage characters are in a strange place in my opinion. On one hand they do flesh out the world of Gensokyo by showing the sort of stuff that inhabits the world. Mystia, for example, is one of many night sparrows, and is treated pretty inconsequentially in IN. However, she also sells grilled lamprey and sings in a punk rock band. These things can't be typical of night sparrows, so she does stand out from the crowd. So on one hand shes one of these unimportant characters and on the other she is her own character. Becoming her own character is a good thing, but in doing so Gensokyo, and more specifically the Night Sparrows, louse their mundanity that readers are looking for.
My answer would have been something like, introducing multiple Night Sparrows, maybe even in stage 2 of IN, and then elevating one with things like being in the punk rock band. That would further smooth out the gradient from important to unimportant character.