Author Topic: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!  (Read 467283 times)

Maiden Synnae ミ☆

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #330 on: April 26, 2013, 03:25:17 PM »
When a new regular danmaku games comes out, I always really hope for Zun to not put an old character as a boss, because in my opinion, this makes the game sort of "incomplete" I mean, like what happened with Ten Desires. The fact that an old character (Yuyuko) got recycled caused the game to get a "hole" in stage 1. It stole the opportunity of a new character getting introduced and shining on her own stage, which disappointed me somewhat.

I'm fine with old characters as playable ones, though. When it comes to fighting games, there's always several old characters returning as playable, and I see no problem with that, since it has always been like that anyway. But I still always hope to see at least 1 new character as the final boss, and possibly a second one as sub-boss (like what happened on SWR, which had the introduction of two new girls).

Sweetness and love~ ♥

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #331 on: April 26, 2013, 03:32:58 PM »
I just want to say that I am geniunely sorry for causing a Mima derail.

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #332 on: April 26, 2013, 03:34:51 PM »
It's OK, Stuffs. I'm just glad it was you.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

game2011

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #333 on: April 26, 2013, 03:38:47 PM »
Because obviously something that applies to Street Fighter applies here, right?
I'm talking about fandoms in general.  Also, I remember someone here saying during TD's production that s/he prefers it if ZUN reuses characters more often instead of creating new ones.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 03:50:47 PM by game2011 »

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #334 on: April 26, 2013, 03:41:31 PM »
Be that as it may, the fact still remains that the people who want old characters back are just going to be more vocal than those who want new ones, based on the likelihood of new characters vs old ones. If vocalization were the sole data point, Mima would be the most popular character in every Touhou poll taken since 2004 or something.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

game2011

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #335 on: April 26, 2013, 03:53:45 PM »
My quote, altered to "what I want most of the time".
No, I prefer new characters more than old ones.

Formless God

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #336 on: April 26, 2013, 04:39:42 PM »
Yeah, I misread that.

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #337 on: April 26, 2013, 04:40:50 PM »
Maybe people just want an old character in HM because the majority of the cast (besides the usual Reimu and Marisa) are the relatively new people (the plot itself makes it quite probable we're only going to see MoF+ characters as playable).

As an aside, I woudln't ever expect an old character to return for a main-series Danmaku game as a boss, and I don't think anyone else is ever asking for that. Yuyuko in Ten Desires is practically the only case it ever happened (Well, and Reimu and Marisa in Imperishable Night as well as Mima but only if you count PC-98 in the first place). Returning bosses is what the Aya games are for.

For the most part, ZUN himself stated he prefers making new characters, IIRC. Although Phantasmagoria of Flower View had to have one of the more... not-mainstream casts out there (compare PoSD to Imperishable Night, the latter of which appears to use the most popular characters while the former, after having all the playable ones, slaps in a whole ton of nigh random choices, including Yuuka of all people)

Kilgamayan

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #338 on: April 26, 2013, 05:02:52 PM »
For the record, I wrote my post while disregarding the Mima fandom, because the overwhelming majority of cries for Mima to return are some combination of hipster, ironic, and brainless, and all of them that aren't ironic are delusional. It's a fanbase that has earned its ignorability.

I speak of characters "coming back" in the Youmu-in-10D sense more than the Yuuka-in-WaHH sense. In that sense, I would not only not say it's surprising that people would want characters to return, I would go so far as to say that it would be very bad if people didn't want characters to return, because that implies ZUN has done a piss-poor job of creating likable characters. People want characters to return because they're attached to those characters and want to see the characters expanded upon further (and we all know how much room there is for this) so there is even more of that character.

Just as one example in a world of them, 10D and Soap 'Em gave us an ancient naive cowardly arsonist human(ish) with a boat, an accent, and a funny hat that stands out in a world of funny hats. She instantly shot up past her peers towar the upper echelon of the popularity poll rankings, and of all the names I've seen shouted for in terms of who "should" be in TH14, hers has been the loudest, and by a fairly wide margin at that.

Now TH14 could include her as a playable, just as 10D did with Youmu. From a gameplay standpoint, we could see an enjoyable new shot type (I hold that Youmu's shot type is the second-best thing about 10D after Miko). From a characterization standppoint, we could see a cute girl from ancient times meeting new people and marveling at modern innovations. What if she ran into Nitori? Imagine the hilarity that would ensue! And so on and so forth.

Or TH14 could include an entirely new cast of characters. Some of them could be enjoyable as characters - in fact, there are pretty good odds at least one will stick out. But it's not a guarantee, and it leaves the nigh-endless potential for Futo shenanigans untapped, which is very likely an disgustingly undesirable outcome for all the people that helped launch her to19th.
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Imosa

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #339 on: April 26, 2013, 05:11:42 PM »
The fact that an old character (Yuyuko) got recycled caused the game to get a "hole" in stage 1. It stole the opportunity of a new character getting introduced and shining on her own stage, which disappointed me somewhat.
Do characters really shine in their stages though? Rather how much is a stage 1 appearance really worth? Yamame and Kisume are the best examples I can think of right away, but I think the same argument can be made with a few early stage bosses. What do they contribute? 

game2011

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #340 on: April 26, 2013, 05:18:57 PM »
As an aside, I woudln't ever expect an old character to return for a main-series Danmaku game as a boss, and I don't think anyone else is ever asking for that. Yuyuko in Ten Desires is practically the only case it ever happened (Well, and Reimu and Marisa in Imperishable Night as well as Mima but only if you count PC-98 in the first place). Returning bosses is what the Aya games are for.
Alice and Aya did the same thing, but the latter's case is different in the way that she first appeared in a nontraditional shooting game.

And Touhou 9's plot involves flowers, so Yuuka's appearance makes sense.

Maiden Synnae ミ☆

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #341 on: April 26, 2013, 06:12:08 PM »
Do characters really shine in their stages though? Rather how much is a stage 1 appearance really worth? Yamame and Kisume are the best examples I can think of right away, but I think the same argument can be made with a few early stage bosses. What do they contribute?

They contribute to nothing, except for Yuyuko in TD that actually gave the player character useful information rather than just getting in the way and saying "Oh, a human! Let's fight!"

By "shining" I mean that they get the chance to have their own stage, their own theme and spellcards. The stage as a whole focuses on them, giving the character their unique features, and something that makes us remember them, despite their unimportance. I was never trying to imply that they're popular, nor important to gensokyo, nor to the game's plot.

You may interpret "shining" as poor choice of words then. But I can't find anything else to express my thoughts better, so it'll stay like this.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 06:15:30 PM by Magic Magica ~★ »

Sweetness and love~ ♥

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #342 on: April 26, 2013, 06:53:18 PM »
Not to derail anything but I noticed that the wiki mentions Hopeless Masquerade coming out on Reitaisai 10 (May 26, 2013)
Apologies in advance if this has been mentioned or if I disturbed any flow but I can't stop bouncing off the walls

Kilgamayan

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #343 on: April 26, 2013, 07:05:03 PM »
I hear there is a certain mouse that would like to speak to those discussing how irrelevant Stage 1 characters are. Maybe Drake can go fetch her?
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Maiden Synnae ミ☆

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #344 on: April 26, 2013, 07:08:36 PM »
I hear there is a certain mouse that would like to speak to those discussing how irrelevant Stage 1 characters are. Maybe Drake can go fetch her?

Yeah, Nazrin too. Sorry... forgot to mention her on my post.

As for the others, they're completely irrelevant. I'm hoping the stage 1 boss of th14 will be at least relatively important to the plot.

Sweetness and love~ ♥

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #345 on: April 26, 2013, 07:13:40 PM »
Nazrin, like Yuyuko, is another special case, to the point where ZUN lampshades it by referring to Kogasa as the only passerby youkai in the game.  Of course, given that these two special cases showed up in the most recent games (UFO and TD, respectively), maybe we can expect more special cases for stage 1 bosses from here on.

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #346 on: April 26, 2013, 07:30:27 PM »
I'm really reluctant to extrapolate a trend from just two consecutive games. That might be because I want a Stage 1 character with personality and importance to the story.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Zil

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #347 on: April 26, 2013, 07:33:38 PM »
@Kilga: Alright. I interpreted bringing them back as sort of a "back from the grave" thing. But I see what you mean now, and it makes sense.

Kilgamayan

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #348 on: April 26, 2013, 07:51:09 PM »
Well, in THAT sense, everyone wants Orange back. Because if you don't wwant Orange back, you're a Communist.
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #349 on: April 26, 2013, 07:52:58 PM »
You mean a Hong Meiling fan.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Kilgamayan

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #350 on: April 26, 2013, 07:53:49 PM »
There's a difference?
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #351 on: April 26, 2013, 07:55:45 PM »
Mweh, everyone knows that Hong Meiling / Orange will be added in a future patch/expansion, anyways. Also, I thought Hong Meiling was the communist.

Imosa

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #352 on: April 26, 2013, 08:57:33 PM »
They contribute to nothing, except for Yuyuko in TD that actually gave the player character useful information rather than just getting in the way and saying "Oh, a human! Let's fight!"

By "shining" I mean that they get the chance to have their own stage, their own theme and spellcards. The stage as a whole focuses on them, giving the character their unique features, and something that makes us remember them, despite their unimportance. I was never trying to imply that they're popular, nor important to gensokyo, nor to the game's plot.

You may interpret "shining" as poor choice of words then. But I can't find anything else to express my thoughts better, so it'll stay like this.
I have no issue with that definition of shining.
My position is coming from having worked on my character relationship chart and what I notice is that the lack of canon relationships is rather disappointing. If there were less characters then the existing ones would have more relationships and I'd be making a much more interesting chart.
I guess I should point out that I love the relationships in the Myouren Temple, so I guess it did things right.

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #353 on: April 26, 2013, 11:37:38 PM »
Youkai are actually naturally kinda anathema to relationships. Most of them don't even bother to refer to them by name but instead just say "Hey you!" to each other (stated directly by ZUN himself in an interview), and youkai of the same species has trouble working together (witness the kappa in wild and horned hermit). The tengu are stated by Ran to be merely an imitation of human society and Akyuu states the Scarlet Devil Mansion lives a lifestyle that is neither youkai nor human, which implies that these sorts of "youkai organizations" are rare. It's also one of the reasons why Byakuren can be seen as a bit naive, because she's banding youkai together but in actuality they're still mostly off doing their own things.

In many cases, when youkai do follow a leader, it's because that leader is strong. At least, that's what Aya tells Chen is the key to getting followers and why Chen follows Ran (Ran is implied to have become Yukari's shikigami for power, too).

The stage 1 and 2 youkai (the "passerby" youkai) that lack relationships are actually what most youkai are normally naturally like. I suppose the fact that the youkai from stages 3 or 4 onwards are in an organizational structure might be because it takes a youkai/being strong or charismatic enough to band together other youkai to cause an incident of such magnitude in the first place.

cuc

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #354 on: April 27, 2013, 02:21:24 AM »
The stage 1 and 2 youkai (the "passerby" youkai) that lack relationships are actually what most youkai are normally naturally like. I suppose the fact that the youkai from stages 3 or 4 onwards are in an organizational structure might be because it takes a youkai/being strong or charismatic enough to band together other youkai to cause an incident of such magnitude in the first place.
Good observation. ZUN said during the Dawn of Touhou lecture: the early stages are for worldbuilding, and the later stages are the main story.
Touhou Fantasy News: twitter

Aya Reiko

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #355 on: April 27, 2013, 08:03:45 AM »
Thanks for sharing all of this info with us cuc!

Would be interesting to see a tailor character on Touhou.  Would explain where everybody's frilly dresses come from eh?
Or who repairs them whenever they lose a fight.

cuc

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #356 on: April 27, 2013, 09:19:07 AM »
A new banner for HM from here:


Overlaying the banner onto the cover...


...produces a better silhouette:


I already have a good idea of how to read the image. Although I'm interested to see your reading. :D
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 09:42:20 AM by cuc »
Touhou Fantasy News: twitter

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #357 on: April 27, 2013, 12:04:30 PM »
Okay, it looks like... roses. Really, Koishi imagery is comig to my mind just now. Flaming roses? Don't know how to tackle this one. Although I got a concept for the events of the game, although this is pure speculation of course.

The new antagonist seems to be responsible of stealing/altering emotions, leaving people in a state of despair and hopelessness. My guess is that it might be a youkai, who is trying to become a a god by stealing people's faith and emotions, and weaving them in herself in some way, so she can "masquerade" herself as a god/celestial/whatever. The "heart fabric" might be a concept of weaving human's hopes and fears into something that can render the antagonist a god or a saviour to those people - a holy kimonoi, or sth like that... Might be this Amanojaku still, e.g posing as Bishamonten for the lulz and pissing of Shou that way.

Thinking of a youkai that feeds of people happiness and emotions, rendering them hopeless sounds awfully like a dementor. If that's the case I can see so many HP x Touhou fanfics and memes incoming in the next months...

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #358 on: April 27, 2013, 12:24:03 PM »
Looks like you found her bust, at least.  :blush:

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #359 on: April 27, 2013, 12:24:42 PM »
Well, I think that she is holding a jeweled pagoda and a paddle fan (is that a correct name?)...
And those two things floating around her could be anything... Lanterns maybe?
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