Author Topic: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!  (Read 467147 times)

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #150 on: January 05, 2013, 11:53:28 PM »
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I'm not sure that's the word you mean to use, but I think this nutty discussion is based on a misunderstanding; that there is absolutely no overlap of belief or practice between Taoism and Shinto, when in fact both Taoism and Buddhism have not only influenced Shinto, but all three share fundamental ideas and concepts. Therefore it's fairly easy to say "oh yeah, sure, she's a Shinto shrine maiden, BUT LOOK AT THIS TAOIST THING SHE DOES" when there are commonalities between the two.

While I don't quite understand Shinto, I do know about Taoist and Buddhist beliefs. Tao ideas and Buddhist ideas are not the same. Reimu's way of life: going with the flow is a Tao concept. Buddhist concept does not have this as far as I could tell. I don't know if Shinto concepts have this.

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2.) If you wanna speculate like that take a look at the other two characters. They have the same large alignment to Tao in their standard decks, do you want to speculate Marisa and Ichirin are Taoist believers too? My guess is the alignment of a skill might simply have to do with whether it's melee or danmaku or something. Whichever it is, the standard values for all charas are neutral, the faith chart has literally no meaning at all in that regard. (Surprise, that was already pointed out a few times).

My guess is that the alignment there is meant to be the alignment of the moves in question. So something is a "Shinto" move, or a "Buddhist" move, or a "Tao" move.
Considering that Marisa has her alignment split, it sounds like she is neutral. Or are you telling me that Marisa and Ichirin have max "Tao" on their default deck?

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It's an arbitrary measurement. Stop looking too deep into it.

Yes, an arbitrary measurement, just like lots of other measurements, like movement speed, damage, bomb length, etc. in the other danmaku games. But I am not just talking about this single arbitrary measurement. I am talking about this arbitrary measurement plus everything else Zun has told us.
All indications say that Reimu follows Tao, if Reimu were aligned in this game, which I don't believe she is aligned.
What I am saying is Reimu does not represent the Shinto faction. That would be Sanae, Suwako and Kanako.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #151 on: January 06, 2013, 12:18:50 AM »
Reimu's title shows that she is Shinto.

The Faith Chart in the demo is just a prototype. There isn't any skill or item that changes the Shinto part.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #152 on: January 06, 2013, 12:32:55 AM »
While I don't quite understand Shinto, I do know about Taoist and Buddhist beliefs. Tao ideas and Buddhist ideas are not the same. Reimu's way of life: going with the flow is a Tao concept. Buddhist concept does not have this as far as I could tell. I don't know if Shinto concepts have this.

What I'm saying is there's an overlap in beliefs. "Going with the flow", for example, is a concept that applies to many, many religions. So saying that because Belief A belongs to Faith 1, this character therefore follows Faith 1 is not necessarily correct. In Reimu's case:

Reimu's title shows that she is Shinto.

The Faith Chart in the demo is just a prototype. There isn't any skill or item that changes the Shinto part.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #153 on: January 06, 2013, 02:58:53 AM »
Shinto, throughout Japanese history, has adapted a lot of Taoist and Buddhist concepts through China and Korea. Thus, you have to look at what Shinto does that the other two doesn't if you want to find out what is distinctively "Shinto." And the answer to that is right in the name: Shin=God. Shinto is all about worshipping various Japanese gods: famous mythological figures and countless animistic spirits/gods. Yorihime would be the best example of how someone with Shinto powers will fight IMO.

Outside Silent Sinner in Blue, however, most of Reimu's powers doesn't seem to rely on gods. Look at Reimu's spellcards. There are a few that mention "divine" and "god," but she doesn't call upon powers of any specific Shinto gods. In fact, a big part of Reimu - the Yin Yang orbs - is decidedly Taoistic. The concept of yin-yang balance is a HUGE part of Taoism (concept originated from Tao Te Ching, the closest thing Taoism got to a "bible"). What ZUN is implying in that interview is very literal, no need to read deep into it: Reimu is a Shinto miko, but one that unknowingly (which is funny because "unknowingly knowing" is also somewhat Taoist) leans heavily toward Tao.

That ZUN's comment might become clearer if you look at Futo's spellcards as well. Futo obviously sides with the Taoists. However, look at her spellcards. Almost all of those names mentioned are Shinto figures. Sake is also important to Shinto rituals. And of course, the infamous BOAT. ZUN definitely got that from Iwafune Shrine (Shinto) in Osaka where there is a rock "boat." Futo derives much of her spells/power from Shinto concepts, even though she's with Taoists...

I hope this clears up for everyone the religion shenanigan going on in Touhou.

====Sorry for wall of text lol=====

Something interesting is the classification of Reimu's Fantasy Seal. I believe it's the only "Shinto" card in TH135 demo. I don't really remember how we know this, but we've also known for a while that fantasy orb/seal is a Hakurei shrine signature spell. Maybe this is related to Hakurei shrine's god???

By the way, the deck argument is very weak. All characters have 4 "default" decks in the demo, each having its own faith chart...

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #154 on: January 06, 2013, 03:27:09 AM »
The post above is mostly correct (one nitpick: Tao Te Ching actually only mentioned Yin and Yang explicitly once; Yin/Yang figures more prominently in I-Ching; the concept of Yin/Yang balance is far older than Tao Te Ching).

Futo's spell cards all come from her upbringing as a Shinto priestess of the Mononobe clan. And for another example of Reimu's non-Shinto techniques, one of her signature weapons is Persuasion Needle / Demon-Sealing Needle, which originated not from Japanese culture, but from wuxia (martial arts literature), in which acupuncture needles become a type of projectile weapon.

The current faith charts, and the faith ratio of each characters' skills in the demo indeed don't mean very much. For all we know, in the full game each character may all have an equal amount of Taoist, Shintoist and Buddhist cards.

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I'm not sure that's the word you mean to use, but I think this nutty discussion is based on a misunderstanding; that there is absolutely no overlap of belief or practice between Taoism and Shinto, when in fact both Taoism and Buddhism have not only influenced Shinto, but all three share fundamental ideas and concepts.
While some of the posts here might go a little overboard, this is not quite right, either. There's significant syncreticism and mutual influence going on throughout history, but their fundamental concepts are very different.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 03:44:24 AM by cuc »
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #155 on: January 06, 2013, 03:42:10 AM »
On the demo faith chart, each faith lights up when its value is 3 or above. And while you can stack 8 cards of the same faith, the maximum value visible on the chart is only 4.

It's reasonable to think each character would have 3-4 cards for each faith, and 3-4 neutral cards, making it a total of 12-16 cards. This observation is unrelated to the one above.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 03:49:18 AM by cuc »
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #156 on: January 06, 2013, 03:53:57 AM »
While some of the posts here might go a little overboard, this is not quite right, either. There's significant syncreticism and mutual influence going on throughout history, but their fundamental concepts are very different.

Oh, I didn't say they were the same. I said there was a lot of influence and overlap between them; some indications/concepts from one are shared by both, or more.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #157 on: January 06, 2013, 04:57:16 AM »
They really aren't too mutually exclusive from each other. Buddhism/Shinto for example are mixed and matched a lot because they don't contradict.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #158 on: January 06, 2013, 12:01:41 PM »
They will release some patch for low resolution? Because I cant really play the game on my Netbook.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #159 on: January 06, 2013, 02:45:47 PM »
They will release some patch for low resolution? Because I cant really play the game on my Netbook.

Try this.

There's also this one that has more options, but it's more complicated to use.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 02:49:50 PM by Magic »

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #160 on: January 06, 2013, 02:55:15 PM »
The character art... is alphes still doing that for HM?  It doesn't look like his style.
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That's because I did it

Really, though, they probably got another dood to work on this. Reimu's face looks out of whack, colored eyelashes aren't his stuff, and the eyelash in Reimu's lmao3/4bar Last Word isn't alphes's kind of eyelash :V And then there's the sudden revert to the IaMP proportions while A) the one used in 10.5/12.3 looked better B) they don't actually clash with the sprites' size in this game.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #161 on: January 06, 2013, 04:27:23 PM »
Ok I will try it the first software and I will let you know if I have other problems. Thanks!
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #162 on: January 06, 2013, 10:11:07 PM »
I know this is just to make things fair from a gameplay perspective, but I have to ask.

I just managed to use Sun Grazer for the first time in a legitimate match. Now, whether or not a Last Word hits, it always resets the user's popularity to +50 -50. How is this supposed to make sense from the view of the characters themselves?  :V

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #163 on: January 06, 2013, 10:15:38 PM »
"Man that was awesome!...sorta excessive..."
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #164 on: January 06, 2013, 10:27:30 PM »
"Man that was awesome!...sorta excessive..."
Yeah, Marisa swinging her broom (with a yellow glow) and not hitting anything is really, really excessive. Now, granted, if it hit, what you posted would make some sense. It makes no sense when a last word fails to activate, though.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #165 on: January 07, 2013, 12:41:48 AM »
"Oh sweet, she's going to do something...!...hmm. Maybe that was on purpose."
Sugoiiii~
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #166 on: January 07, 2013, 01:03:49 AM »
Oh hell, she goofed her ultimate attack, what a let down.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #167 on: January 07, 2013, 02:11:49 AM »
I know this is just to make things fair from a gameplay perspective, but I have to ask.

I just managed to use Sun Grazer for the first time in a legitimate match. Now, whether or not a Last Word hits, it always resets the user's popularity to +50 -50. How is this supposed to make sense from the view of the characters themselves?  :V

When you get to 100% popularity, you're expected to pull out your Last Word and/or win the match. If it gets to a point where your popularity does drop back to +50% -50%, then that means you didn't win when you should have so everyone is disappointed.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #168 on: January 07, 2013, 01:16:35 PM »
I want the full game to be released...
I think everyone here wants that.
I'm waiting warmly while the girls get ready.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #169 on: January 09, 2013, 01:15:22 PM »
Meh. I dont see the animation of skills. .-. Thanks anyways for the program.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #170 on: January 09, 2013, 03:43:38 PM »
Does anyone have any comprehensive information regarding each of the different directional variances of each skill? Some seem really similar, like Reimu's B- and F- Skill2, or Ichirin's U- and D- Skill1.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #171 on: January 09, 2013, 04:46:02 PM »
For the sake of consistency I'll be using numeric notation. Just look at your numpad to see which direction it is. 2 is down, 4 is back, 6 is forward, 8 is up.

Marisa has no variations in direction except for her potion special. 2pot puts it below her at a medium distance. 4pot puts it fairly close in front of her, same elevation. 6pot puts it way in front of her, same elevation. 8pot puts it above her and medium distance away.

Reimu's variations lie in yinyang orb, somersault, teleport setup, and youkai buster.
2buster shoots it at around a 30 degree angle downwards. 4buster shoots it around 60 degrees downwards. 6buster shoots it straight forward, 8buster shoots it about 30 degrees upwards.
2yinyang shoots it at 60 degrees down. 4yinyang shoots it 30 degrees down. 6yinyang shoots it 30 degrees up, and 8yinyang shoots it 60 degrees up.
2somersault is very short and has less hitstun. 6 and 4somersault are identical, but 6somersault shoots you further forward; both have more hitstun but more recovery. 8somersault has an automatic followup. As far as I can tell :none: have invinc frames.
4 and 6teleport are the same and put the waypoint about 3 character lengths in front of Reimu. 2teleport puts the waypoint almost vertically below Reimu, and 8teleport puts it almost vertically above her. Using it again will do the teleport kick, regardless of direction inputted.

Ichirin has variations for godhand/vertical fist and ORAORA.
2 and 8 godhand are identical and fire the fist about midscreen. 6godhand shoots it pretty far forward, and 4godhand is almost point blank.
4 and 8ora are identical. 2ora can be held down to go slightly downwards while doing it, but this is pretty useless. 6ora sends Unzan forward while performing and has more hits.

So for Marisa the main reason to vary direction input is to just simplify combos. Reimu has some variation, but it's mostly down to personal choice as combos tend to work with any version of buster or somersault. Ichirin needs some versions of godhand to optimal combos, and 6godhand is pretty useless, but otherwise not much difference.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #172 on: January 09, 2013, 04:46:23 PM »
Does anyone have any comprehensive information regarding each of the different directional variances of each skill? Some seem really similar, like Reimu's B- and F- Skill2, or Ichirin's U- and D- Skill1.

As from what I can see:
Reimu:
Back flip:
                 8D/C :Does a kick upwards then follows with another downwards for two hits.
                 6D/C & 4D/C: Does a single kick upwards.
                 2D/C: Does a very low back flip with Reimu barely going upwards into the air.
Youkai Buster:
                 8D/C: Shoots her talismans diagonally upwards.
                 4D/C: Shoots her talismans downwards with a very steep angle; almost going straight down.
                 6D/C: Shoots straight ahead           
                 2D/C: Shoots diagonally downwards
Ying-Yang Orb:
                 8D/C: Shoots upwards at a rather steep angle, bounces twice if you have enough distance.
                 4D/C: Shoots downwards so that bounces once.
                 6D/C: Shoots upwards so that bounces only once.
                 2D/C: Shoots downwards at a pretty steep angle, bouncing twice of the ceiling and floor if you have enough distance.
Gap Kick Move:
                 8D/C: Shoots the gap upwards, then kicks downwards when coming out of it.
                 4D/C & 6D/C: Shoots the gap forwards, kicks downwards when coming out of it.
                 2D/C: Shoots gap downwards, kicks downwards when coming out of it. If your kick hits the floor, you continue as you go from the bottom of the screen to the top.

Marisa:
Broom Upercut:
                 I saw no real difference in the move, regardless of the direction you pushed, unless i'm wrong.
Dash Forward:
                 8D/C & 2D/C: A simple dash forward with some very good distance.
                 4D/C: A shorter dash which goes quite a bit slower.
                 6D/C: A longer version which goes a lot faster.
Falling Stars:
                 I once again saw no difference in the move, regardless of which direction you press.
Magic Bottle:
                 8D/C: Throws the bottle upwards with a pretty steep arch, exploding well above Marisa's head.
                 4D/C: A short throw forwards.
                 6D/C: A pretty long throw forwards.
                 2D/C: A small arch upwards, before falling and detonating below Marisa.

Ichirin:
Bullet Punch:
                 6D/C: Unzan moves forward while he punches.
                 All three other directions: Unzan just punches while staying still.
Electric Fists:
                 6D/C: Unzan electrically charges his fists but does not smash them together.
                 All three other directions: Unzan electrically charges his fists and smashes them together right in front of him.
Downwards Sky Punch:
                 4D/C: Close range, downwards punch that falls right in front of Ichirin.
                 8D/C & 2D/C: Medium range, downwards punch, about halfway down the screen.
                 6D/C: Long range punch, near the back of the screen.
Grab:
                 I saw no difference regarding the direction pressed; the grab is always the same.

Thats all I was able to do from playing around with the abilities, I don't quite know the official names for the specials, so I described them :derp: Hope this helps  :D If I made any mistakes, I apologize in advance :P
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #173 on: January 09, 2013, 04:48:20 PM »
Ha, simultaneous post. Yeah, forgot about zaphand and broomride.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #174 on: January 10, 2013, 05:27:31 AM »
I like the game but am having some issues with it, first is the display during character selection is slanted upward & during the fight some of the graphics for attacks are basically not there & I have no idea why this would be...
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #175 on: January 10, 2013, 06:20:55 PM »
I like the game but am having some issues with it, first is the display during character selection is slanted upward & during the fight some of the graphics for attacks are basically not there & I have no idea why this would be...
Same my problem.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #176 on: January 11, 2013, 12:43:40 AM »
I have the same problem, and I'm assuming it's just a graphics card problem. I only have 128MB video memory and the recommended is 512MB. Since I meet all the other requirements, this is probably what's wrong :x

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #177 on: January 11, 2013, 02:32:33 AM »
 I got a bug the other day where Reimubot got 100% popularity by the time she used her ability to swap sides of the screen.
She then got invisible and suddenly I was fighting a yellow glow.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #178 on: January 11, 2013, 03:05:40 AM »
I got a bug the other day where Reimubot got 100% popularity by the time she used her ability to swap sides of the screen.
She then got invisible and suddenly I was fighting a yellow glow.
Did you maybe accidentally press F2? Because that gives player 2 100% popularity. As for why she disappeared, I have no idea.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #179 on: January 11, 2013, 06:38:51 AM »
 Good point, I can't remember if I did it accidentaly or she was beating me.   By the way, is it just me or she's the only hard bot in the game?  For me, it's almost like Ichirin and Marisa got the good ol SWR-esque AI.