Author Topic: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!  (Read 325704 times)

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #90 on: January 03, 2013, 03:00:26 PM »
Regarding the character line-up, aren't we forgetting Mamizou? She was brought in to be a reinforcement against Miko, but never had a chance to do her thing. From a storytelling perspective, Mamizou still didn't fulfill her objective.

Of course, she's also very laid back and can decide to Take It Easy? and let the religious brawldebates to people who care. Still, it'd be cool to see Mamizou again, specially if her theme is also remixed like Ichirin's.

Or maybe they'll just use her as the in-game excuse for mirror matches.

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #91 on: January 03, 2013, 03:40:41 PM »
My take on a realistic roster:

Confirmed: Reimu, Marisa, Ichirin
Based on the intro: Miko, Futo, Byakuren, Shou
Likely/possible choices: Sanae, Kanako/Suwako, Shizuha, Keine

Sanae should be an obvious choice for a game that concerns religion.
I don't see both Kanako and Suwako being in together, but at least one of them is likely.
SoPM says Shizuha envies Minoriko's popularity, so this is her chances to become popular.
There's what appears to be a hakutaku in the intro, which might be referring to Keine.  Plus, she protects the Human Village, so it's her duty to "fight" for them or something like that.

Yeah, I can only think of those characters...  There's obviously going to be more than those.  Hina is a possibility as well, since the chaos happening most likely brought misfortune, so she gets into fights gathering them.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #92 on: January 03, 2013, 03:56:50 PM »
I cant play it because I have a netbook and the resolution is huuuge. T_T"
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #93 on: January 03, 2013, 04:11:51 PM »
...

...and you are?  ???

I'm debating if this qualifies as self-promotion, seeing as this is probably one of your first posts here.  And also scanning the rules regarding that.

It's cool, afaik we don't have a dedicated hm channel and I know mizuumi won't.  If there is an hm channel on ppirc then please post the info here and I'll make sure it gets updated in the OP.


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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #94 on: January 03, 2013, 06:48:45 PM »
My take on a realistic roster:

Confirmed: Reimu, Marisa, Ichirin
Based on the intro: Miko, Futo, Byakuren, Shou
Likely/possible choices: Sanae, Kanako/Suwako, Shizuha, Keine

Sanae should be an obvious choice for a game that concerns religion.
I don't see both Kanako and Suwako being in together, but at least one of them is likely.
SoPM says Shizuha envies Minoriko's popularity, so this is her chances to become popular.
There's what appears to be a hakutaku in the intro, which might be referring to Keine.  Plus, she protects the Human Village, so it's her duty to "fight" for them or something like that.

Yeah, I can only think of those characters...  There's obviously going to be more than those.  Hina is a possibility as well, since the chaos happening most likely brought misfortune, so she gets into fights gathering them.
Not so sure about Shizuha and Hina.
Hina mostly stays at Youkai Mountain to keep humans out, and she herself brings bad luck on people who encounter her. SoPP says that she's not even a real god, but a kind of youkai, and doesn't require faith. As for gathering misfortune, I'd say the amount of misfortune coming out of this game isn't particularly different from any other incident.
Shizuha, well, I have doubts mainly because she's a Stage 1midboss. She really doesn't have much chance of plot significance.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #95 on: January 03, 2013, 09:44:44 PM »
Not so sure about Shizuha and Hina.
Hina mostly stays at Youkai Mountain to keep humans out, and she herself brings bad luck on people who encounter her. SoPP says that she's not even a real god, but a kind of youkai, and doesn't require faith. As for gathering misfortune, I'd say the amount of misfortune coming out of this game isn't particularly different from any other incident.
Shizuha, well, I have doubts mainly because she's a Stage 1midboss. She really doesn't have much chance of plot significance.

Cirno was a Stage 2 Boss and a Stage 1 midboss, albeit massively popular, that popularity didn't set in until PoFV anyway, with the (9) incident.

Mystia made it to PoFV despite being a Stage 2 boss.

Ichirin is hardly a character, she's a hitbox.

I wouldn't completely write her out, especially if she has a legitimate reason, and hasn't been shown as a Spectator.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 09:46:22 PM by Raikaria »


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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #96 on: January 04, 2013, 12:53:59 AM »
Cirno was a Stage 2 Boss and a Stage 1 midboss, albeit massively popular, that popularity didn't set in until PoFV anyway, with the ⑨ incident.

Mystia made it to PoFV despite being a Stage 2 boss.

Ichirin is hardly a character, she's a hitbox.

I wouldn't completely write her out, especially if she has a legitimate reason, and hasn't been shown as a Spectator.
Well, note that all of the examples were still bosses, and Stage 2+ bosses at that. Ichirin may be a hitbox, but hitbox or not Unzan got into HM, so she was never really the problem :U
Anyway, I don't think PoFV is a good standard. I mean, you had all three Prismrivers, too! ZUN had that kind of luxury. Including characters was much easier because they didn't have boatloads of sprites and animations, and balancing wasn't as much of an issue.

Also, many of the characters you come across in PoFV have no plot significance. If you think about it, only Komachi and Shikieiki are part of the story. Everyone else you fight is just kinda... there.
Maybe this is too early to say, but HM has a more involved story that requires almost all of the characters to have something to do with the factions and popularity battles. Of course, they could still throw in extra characters, but I think that's a limited option - We've got a character selection list like IaMP, which might suggest there's a small enough number of characters that we don't need a selection grid.

There's a first time for everything, but I just can't see why ZUN and Tasogare would bother themselves to put in such an insignificant character like Shizuha, especially if they're spectator-fying the likes of Nue and Murasa (I know some are against basing assumptions on spectators, but I gotta say I think it makes sense, at least for speculation).

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #97 on: January 04, 2013, 03:39:12 AM »
Of course, they could still throw in extra characters, but I think that's a limited option - We've got a character selection list like IaMP, which might suggest there's a small enough number of characters that we don't need a selection grid.


...In the demo.

Anyway, expect less, receive more. Keep expectations low in any case because, hey, if you're wrong, it will be a good thing.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #98 on: January 04, 2013, 04:41:48 AM »

...In the demo.

Anyway, expect less, receive more. Keep expectations low in any case because, hey, if you're wrong, it will be a good thing.
Yeah, if the selection screen changes, then we could have many more characters, which is great. In the end, the conclusion is the same - we'll just have to wait and see!

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #99 on: January 04, 2013, 05:23:12 AM »
I predict there'll be 4 "factions"; Native Faith, Buddist, Taoist, and Neutral.  The Spell Cards of the first three will be largely geared toward making those characters stay within those factions, while "Neutral" will be given a fair bit of flexibility.

Or not.

Though...  There aren't many who'd be in the Taoist faction.  There's Miko, Tokiko, and Futo.  (Though I doubt Tokiko will make it in.)  And Seiga (With Miyako likely a Spell Card for her).  And perhaps Hong Meiling (She is Chinese).

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #100 on: January 04, 2013, 05:55:47 AM »
And perhaps Hong Meiling (She is Chinese).
Hong Meiling can't be taoist, because Ojou-sama, won't let her participate in religious rallies.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #101 on: January 04, 2013, 06:03:02 AM »

...In the demo.

Anyway, expect less, receive more. Keep expectations low in any case because, hey, if you're wrong, it will be a good thing.

I would have to agree with this. The Grid-style selection for the SWR full game wasn't in the demo, but it did go with something different from IaMP. I can see them going with between 9 and 13 existing characters, depending on a few things, such as: do they want to have all factions with the same amount of people? (Taoism could have 1 less than the others due to being newer... and the fact that Ten Desires didn't introduce as many characters on that side as UFO did with Buddhism.) Do they want to go with 3 - 4 characters per faction? (if they want all factions to  have the same amount of people, then 3 would work best.) Is there really a human faction? (This would affect which characters get in a bit more though. Worth noting that a Hakutaku *is* visible in the intro.) Are they planning a surprise? (Mystia is doing punk concerts. You gents never know what sort of plan they have.) And then on top of that add the new girl in... so...
I can see 10 - 14 characters.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #102 on: January 04, 2013, 06:25:42 AM »
There's Miko, Tokiko, and Futo.  (Though I doubt Tokiko will make it in.)

I don't think Tokiko will be in it either, but, damn, that would be pretty great. I've always wondered what she's been up to out of Curiosities of Lotus Asia~ Really though, I do wonder... I also don't think Tojiko will be involved, as unfortunate as it sounds.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #103 on: January 04, 2013, 06:38:46 AM »
As everyone is guessing the possible characters in the game, here is my list:

The meddling taoist:
Seiga (with Yoshika), Miko (or Tojiko as Miko is too important/busy to participate) and Futo...

The worried buddhist:
Byakuren, Shou (maybe has Nazrin with her as comical relief) + Ichirin...
Also Mamizou might appear to aid Byakuren as she did in Ten Desires.

Random native faith:
Sanae (still supported by the Suwako and Kanako), Kanako and maybe Aya (making a report again).
Then again Suwako is a good candidate as she could fight for being the main god of Moriya again,
but personally I hope that Momizi would appear.

And the rest:
Keine + Marisa and Reimu.
Maybe Alice spreading the wisdom of Makai... Yuka would be funny to see.

And for the final boss:
The true goddess of Hakurei , who is extremely pissed with Reimus lack of faith.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #104 on: January 04, 2013, 07:03:58 AM »
I predict there'll be 4 "factions"; Native Faith, Buddist, Taoist, and Neutral.  The Spell Cards of the first three will be largely geared toward making those characters stay within those factions, while "Neutral" will be given a fair bit of flexibility.

Or not.

Though...  There aren't many who'd be in the Taoist faction.  There's Miko, Tokiko, and Futo.  (Though I doubt Tokiko will make it in.)  And Seiga (With Miyako likely a Spell Card for her).  And perhaps Hong Meiling (She is Chinese).
There's already a Neutral faction, by having a balance among the 3 factions. As for now, only Reimu can do it. Also we seem to be able to lean to 2 factions at once by balancing the point for each faction. Dunno how this affect anything for now.

As everyone is guessing the possible characters in the game, here is my list:

The meddling taoist:
Seiga (with Yoshika), Miko (or Tojiko as Miko is too important/busy to participate) and Futo...

The worried buddhist:
Byakuren, Shou (maybe has Nazrin with her as comical relief) + Ichirin...
Also Mamizou might appear to aid Byakuren as she did in Ten Desires.

Random native faith:
Sanae (still supported by the Suwako and Kanako), Kanako and maybe Aya (making a report again).
Then again Suwako is a good candidate as she could fight for being the main god of Moriya again,
but personally I hope that Momizi would appear.

And the rest:
Keine + Marisa and Reimu.
Maybe Alice spreading the wisdom of Makai... Yuka would be funny to see.

And for the final boss:
The true goddess of Hakurei , who is extremely pissed with Reimus lack of faith.

I remember ZUN mentioning that Hatate will take care of reporting this, so no Aya.

I hope when they finally implement the function of the faith chart it will be more than just a status boost or something . Personally, I think it would be interesting if the faction that the character has will have an effect to the audience, for example: Characters that focuses on the Buddhist faction will have an easier time gathering appeal from the audience in the Palanquin Ship stage or maybe those from the Taoist faction will have a harder time there. Kinda like sports match in their turf. This would be a nice gimmick because the stage will be more than just background and can affect the gameplay.
Also, this is quite unlikely, but by the premise of the game, I hope the faction that the character focuses on will affect their story mode, so we'll get a  branching story and multiple endings. Unlikely, but it would be nice if it is.

Regarding the characters, I guess we'll get more skill and spellcards but only one Last Word for each character. For character items, since we had no weather and got an appeal system in exchange, I'm expecting an item that can affect the appeal(this can either broke the game or make it more competitive). And besides, there's many effects that can be used, I just hope that item cards are more useful in this game than in the previous ones. Each characters also have their own special gimmicks, kinda like Blazblue, so I'm expecting lots of customization in the full game.

I'm planning on maining Ichirin, unless Byakuren got in(I'll rage if she doesn't) then Byakuren all the way.
I'm just worried how they're going to implement the 'Superhuman' spellcard. If it does what I think it does(buffing attack, defense and speed) then I hope it's her Last Word. Having it as a spellcard will be overkill, seeing how the game treats spellcard. Or maybe they'll have it as her item card which would still be convenient.

What do you think the moveset(spell cards, items, Last Word, gimmicks) of the future characters will be?

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #105 on: January 04, 2013, 07:29:56 AM »
Spoiler:
idol yamame out to get everyone's faith love with her song and music oh please make it happen it's never happening
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #106 on: January 04, 2013, 10:13:23 AM »
Quote
Though...  There aren't many who'd be in the Taoist faction.  There's Miko, Tokiko, and Futo.  (Though I doubt Tokiko will make it in.)  And Seiga (With Miyako likely a Spell Card for her).  And perhaps Hong Meiling (She is Chinese).

Are there going to be factions or just groups with possible factions? Reimu's bar shows that she is Tao.

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #107 on: January 04, 2013, 10:49:30 AM »
Are there going to be factions or just groups with possible factions? Reimu's bar shows that she is Tao.

Which bar?

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #108 on: January 04, 2013, 02:29:46 PM »
Are there going to be factions or just groups with possible factions? Reimu's bar shows that she is Tao.


Really? If that's true, it might tie into the plot point that Reimu's power is actually derived in part from Taoism. I think it was one of the endings in Ten Desires where Futo notes it to a surprised Reimu and the ending explicitly ended with the line, "Taoism!?  Isn't it supposed to be Shinto?"

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #109 on: January 04, 2013, 02:43:59 PM »
Looks like Reimu is being replaced in the final version of the game anyway.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #110 on: January 04, 2013, 03:16:23 PM »
The Faith Chart has nothing to do with the character's faction. You can change it by giving different skills and items.

And I think that it would be very stupid to give an advantage based on stage although Cirno had an advantage in her own stage.

Kasen also would be a Taoist, because she's a hermit.

Marisa's portrait should be changed to a less unhappy-looking one.

Filling out the Popularity Gauge effectively doubles change in popularity. Little tidbit that might be useful to know.

Does anyone know what the smallest unit in the popularity gauge is? Must be smaller than 1%.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #111 on: January 04, 2013, 04:23:14 PM »
I would also love to see what shows Reimu is aligned with Taoism. Especially considering she's a Shinto shrine maiden and all.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 05:01:23 PM by Belldandy Q. Pigrectum »

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #112 on: January 04, 2013, 05:02:21 PM »
Are there going to be factions or just groups with possible factions? Reimu's bar shows that she is Tao.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #113 on: January 04, 2013, 05:22:40 PM »
There's Miko, Tokiko, and Futo.  (Though I doubt Tokiko will make it in.)
... are you thinking of Tojiko? Because Tokiko is a nameless, unimportant youkai whose only appearance is in CoLA.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #114 on: January 04, 2013, 05:45:52 PM »
... are you thinking of Tojiko? Because Tokiko is a nameless, unimportant youkai whose only appearance is in CoLA.

Nice to see someone has common sense.

And yeah, nor Tokiko nor Tojiko will make it to the game, I just won't say that I'm 100% sure of it because we can't guarantee anything. But she has higher chances of appearing in the Audience, on some stage related to Futo/Miko.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 05:51:33 PM by Magic »

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #115 on: January 04, 2013, 05:58:34 PM »
"There is no way my cute Reimu can't be this taoist ~ ze☆"
Shinto doesn't use yin-yang orbs, which should be enough warning that something heterodox is happening on the Hakurei Shrine.

While the actual reason for that is probably that
Spoiler:
ZUN thought that was cool way back in HRtP
, it's interesting to elaborate on in-universe reasons. Case in point, Yukari's magic, with its heavy use of shikigamis, it's clearly onmyoudou, which is heavily taoistic.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #116 on: January 04, 2013, 06:11:49 PM »
The funny thing there being that Shinto absorbed those aspects of Taoism a fair bit if I'm not mistaken. So one could say that Taoism is the forerunner to Shintoism.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #117 on: January 04, 2013, 06:22:11 PM »
Shinto doesn't use yin-yang orbs, which should be enough warning that something heterodox is happening on the Hakurei Shrine.

While the actual reason for that is probably that
Spoiler:
ZUN thought that was cool way back in HRtP
, it's interesting to elaborate on in-universe reasons. Case in point, Yukari's magic, with its heavy use of shikigamis, it's clearly onmyoudou, which is heavily taoistic.

I think by "elaborate" you mean "speculate". The Yin and Yang used by Reimu, if it alluded to any kind of Taoism happening at Hakurei Shrine, probably would have been revealed by now. I think it's also worth pointing out that Onmyodo is as Shinto as it is "Taoist".

But really, the main reason for believing Reimu is decidedly Shinto is the fact that she is a Shinto shrine maiden. Any talk about "hints" of Taoist influence sound a lot like 9/11 conspiracy theorists who can microscope onto small details (e.g. the temperature of burning jet fuel and the melting point of steel) while ignoring larger, more important details (e.g. the mind-boggling amount of coordination it would take to make it a totally secret operation).

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #118 on: January 04, 2013, 08:10:02 PM »
Funny, I thought there were a lack of Buddhist and especially Shinto characters, not a lack of Daoist ones at all

Miko, Futo, Seiga, Kasen

Byakuren, Shou, Ichirin

Reimu, Sanae, ... Aya?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 08:14:10 PM by iK »
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #119 on: January 04, 2013, 08:42:04 PM »
I think by "elaborate" you mean "speculate". The Yin and Yang used by Reimu, if it alluded to any kind of Taoism happening at Hakurei Shrine, probably would have been revealed by now. I think it's also worth pointing out that Onmyodo is as Shinto as it is "Taoist".

But really, the main reason for believing Reimu is decidedly Shinto is the fact that she is a Shinto shrine maiden. Any talk about "hints" of Taoist influence sound a lot like 9/11 conspiracy theorists who can microscope onto small details (e.g. the temperature of burning jet fuel and the melting point of steel) while ignoring larger, more important details (e.g. the mind-boggling amount of coordination it would take to make it a totally secret operation).
Of course it's speculation. It's not baseless speculation, however, because what got me thinking on this angle was this quote (emphasis mine):
Quote
[ZUN] also mentions that Futo's abilities are, while coming from the perspective of Taoism, actually Shinto in nature - the opposite of Reimu.
Source here.

Parsing that comment you get that Reimu's abilities, while coming from the perspective of Shinto, are actually Taoist in nature.

And regarding Shinto in Onmyoudo, shinto and buddhism gave the onmyouji a bunch of deities/spirits/kami to work with. The actual praxis is daoist/taoist in nature. That was pretty much like when the western occult tradition appropriated jewish/christian angels and demons to their works. In the heart of onmyoudo is trigram/hexagram manipulation, the five elements, 12 celestial stems stuff that hail mostly from taoism. On that ZUN's short story with Yukari reminiscing about the flower incident, Yukari's thinking is clearly along these lines.

Now, of course Reimu is a shinto shrine maiden. The point is not that she's a secret hermit in training for all those years. But the Hakurei orbs, and a bunch of Reimu's particular powers (barrier manipulation, fantasy heaven, etc) could hail from taoistic magic and not from invoking a particular kami. For me, this is what that ZUN's comment is about.