Author Topic: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!  (Read 325571 times)

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #120 on: January 04, 2013, 09:02:39 PM »
For me, this is what that ZUN's comment is about.

Or it could be an ambiguous translation? Just going by Occam's Razor here. That's a lot to stretch out of a single sentence.

The thing is, cherry-picked data points to support a pre-supposed hypothesis is not evidence.  So yeah, it is actually baseless speculation. Fun! But baseless. There's nothing really substantial to suggest that Reimu is significantly Taoist, or holds Taoist principles that don't have overlap in Shinto or other faiths. She is, categorically and definitively, solidly Shinto.*

*(Solidly Shinto is also the name of my new collection of Barry White remixes.)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 09:04:39 PM by Belldandy Q. Pigrectum »

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #121 on: January 04, 2013, 09:10:09 PM »
It appears that my post was completely ignored, so I went and got the Ten Desires ending where Reimu's powers being Taoist comes from.

Spoiler:
Seiga: "Not to worry, this patches up real quick."
[Picture: "Here, have an angel's raiment! <3 It's a bit cheap, though..." "I'll pass!"]
Reimu: "The hole's gone... Wait, what? Was that a magic trick?"
Seiga: "Now then, I came in the hopes that I, Seiga Kaku,
could learn in the ways of the Tao from you!"
Reimu: "Uh?"

Seiga: "Your strength is magnificent, like I said.
I can't believe even Lady Toyosatomimi couldn't beat you."
Reimu: "I've never heard of Tao in my life."
Seiga: "What are you saying? The power you use is the picture of Taoism."
Reimu: "Oh?"

Seiga: "Aren't your Yin-Yang orbs, charms, spirit world trance,
and other such things based in Taoist power?"
Reimu: "Are they?"
Seiga: "They are. Perhaps in Japan it's instead known
as Onmyoudou, but..."

Disastrous! Seiga had chased Reimu down.
What exactly was this wicked hermit plotting?
Well, in truth, she was merely captivated by Reimu's power.

This wicked hermit had a habit of being drawn to powerful humans.
That's precisely why she joined Miko and told her of Taoism.
Ending No. 2: Yeah, uh, aren't Reimu's skills Shinto?
This is a Parallel Ending! Congratulations!

iK

  • Triple Teasing Charicature
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #122 on: January 04, 2013, 09:20:27 PM »
Well damn

Spoiler:
Seiga confirmed for SoEW
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Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #123 on: January 04, 2013, 09:22:37 PM »
It appears that my post was completely ignored

Aw. Chin up, lil buddy, I was talking to you, too!

Edit: Interesting ending quote, insofar as it shows Reimu to be utterly oblivious to Taoism. And that
Spoiler:
Seiga is projecting (charms and spirit power are very much a part of Shinto - I think Seiga is just being a bit overly zealous here, which would be typical of a missionary)
. So all we really know from this ending quote is
Spoiler:
Seiga believes Reimu's powers are derived from Taoism, even though they're also Shinto, and Reimu has no idea what the Tao even is
, which is actually pretty hilarious of ZUN.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 09:28:59 PM by Belldandy Q. Pigrectum »

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #124 on: January 04, 2013, 09:27:14 PM »
Aw. Chin up, lil buddy, I was talking to you, too!


Oh. Oops.  I either missed that "I would also love to see what shows Reimu is aligned with Taoism. Especially considering she's a Shinto shrine maiden and all." post you made, or didn't realize it could be taken at face value.

.....well, I suppose my own post with the ending that talks about it is "better late than never".  ^^;;;  There you go, I guess.

The main question is if it's just "a funny observation" by ZUN or meant to be an actual plot point, though I figured from the interview that it was at least something he was considering exploring in the future.

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #125 on: January 04, 2013, 09:30:11 PM »
The main question is if it's just "a funny observation" by ZUN or meant to be an actual plot point

I think you're right about it being a plot point; it just speaks more about Seiga than it does Reimu!

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Hanzo K.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #126 on: January 04, 2013, 09:34:59 PM »
I think we can pretty much sum it up like so.

Seiga: "I like strong people."
Essence RO
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Arbitrary Gaming~!
Youkai Quest: Unknown Adventure

_cf

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #127 on: January 04, 2013, 09:40:31 PM »
It appears that my post was completely ignored, so I went and got the Ten Desires ending where Reimu's powers being Taoist comes from.

<snip spoiler>
See, I didn't even know about this ending. It seems that my insistence on seeing only the endings I personally obtain is getting on my way.

But it supports nicely what I said. It's like if somebody mixed a healthy dose of Taoism into the Hakurei rites, and as I had wondered, Reimu doesn't even know about it very well. (She's shown time and time again to be uninterested on pretty much everything but incident solving).

Other people don't find that strange enough to comment on because Gensokyo is a mostly closed system. Kanako and Suwako probably wondered a bit about that, but since Shinto is pretty much syncretic, they probably figured that was just how the Hakurei shrine rolled.

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #128 on: January 04, 2013, 09:49:54 PM »
See, I didn't even know about this ending. It seems that my insistence on seeing only the endings I personally obtain is getting on my way.

But it supports nicely what I said.

The thing that's awesome (and imminently frustrating) about ZUN is that the ending also nicely supports the opposite conclusion. We know Seiga - the Taoist - sees Toaism in what Reimu does, even though Reimu has no idea what she's talking about. This isn't surprising behavior - when I've described Wiccan principles to my Japanese friends, they've remarked on how similar it is to Shinto! This is probably more likely to happen when you have a zealot like Seiga who's all pumped about spreading the Tao - everything appears to be "influenced" or "based on" this awesome faith you hold. And that makes for great ZUN-like comedy.

ZUN is great at making things as open-ended and vague as possible. I really don't think there's much to speculate on when it comes to Reimu's faith, but I do like that he enjoys tossing some choice interactions like the one between Seiga and Reimu into the mix. Certainly keeps people wondering, that's for sure.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #129 on: January 04, 2013, 09:57:24 PM »
For what it's worth, Sanae's parallel ending has this

Spoiler:
Sanae thought the gathering of divine spirits (desires, really) was connected to faith.
That was the entirety of her reason for converting (to Taoism ~Tiamat) and training.
However, she came to notice she wasn't getting any faith herself.

Where had Sanae mistaken her way?
Actually, this wasn't a mistake at all.

Japanese Shinto has close ties to the continent's Buddhism and Taoism.
Sanae was enlightened to the fact that trying to gather faith
without realizing such was meaningless.
Ending No. 6: Of course, it seems she'll convert right back soon.

_cf

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #130 on: January 04, 2013, 10:04:33 PM »
The thing that's awesome (and imminently frustrating) about ZUN is that the ending also nicely supports the opposite conclusion. We know Seiga - the Taoist - sees Toaism in what Reimu does, even though Reimu has no idea what she's talking about. This isn't surprising behavior - when I've described Wiccan principles to my Japanese friends, they've remarked on how similar it is to Shinto! This is probably more likely to happen when you have a zealot like Seiga who's all pumped about spreading the Tao - everything appears to be "influenced" or "based on" this awesome faith you hold. And that makes for great ZUN-like comedy.

ZUN is great at making things as open-ended and vague as possible. I really don't think there's much to speculate on when it comes to Reimu's faith, but I do like that he enjoys tossing some choice interactions like the one between Seiga and Reimu into the mix. Certainly keeps people wondering, that's for sure.
I see what you mean and it indeed makes sense, even if I don't think Seiga is actually a zealot (which implies piety, something Seiga lacks to an awesome degree). I guess we'll have to wait for the complete game to see where ZUN is going with this.

@ Tiamat: Are those the endings you get if you finish 10D with 3+ bombs in stock? This is bad, I'm still to 1cc it on normal with Reimu, and it's taking all my lives and bombs to reach Miko's laser spellcard. On a good run. Oh well, more training.

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #131 on: January 04, 2013, 10:12:03 PM »
Yea, those are both from the "parallel" endings.  Here's a link to the full transcriptions for those who don't mind spoilers, I guess

http://vgboy.dabomstew.com/other/TenDesires.txt

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #132 on: January 04, 2013, 10:14:10 PM »
I love how speculation encourages the digging up of more canonical material. And then more games are announced, leading to further speculations, leading to further canon-referencing, which in turn increases everyone's knowledge base of Touhou. It's the cirrrrrcle of liiiiiiife.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #133 on: January 04, 2013, 10:50:34 PM »
Re: the ZUN interview about Ten Desires that _cf linked:

Quote
Regarding Reimu's power coming from Taoism, ZUN says he doesn't know how to work that into the story at all yet. However, plans for next year are starting to progress, little by little.
It looks like ZUN himself recognizes that Reimu's power has some connection to Taoism, and he intends to explore that a bit further.

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #134 on: January 05, 2013, 01:42:41 AM »
I love how speculation encourages the digging up of more canonical material. And then more games are announced, leading to further speculations, leading to further canon-referencing, which in turn increases everyone's knowledge base of Touhou. It's the cirrrrrcle of liiiiiiife.

That webpage with those endings was actually posted in the Ten Desires thread within like, a week of the game going live. Though I'm probably one of the only people obsessive compulsive enough to hang onto these things, I suppose.

Aya Reiko

  • Humans are scary!
Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #135 on: January 05, 2013, 05:54:07 AM »
Side note/question:

The character art... is alphes still doing that for HM?  It doesn't look like his style.

The ⑨th Zentillion

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #136 on: January 05, 2013, 06:07:32 AM »
Well, Alphes certainly did the portraits and all that, but the actual fighting sprites, I have to agree, don't look like his style. No idea who did them, though, suppose e'll find out in the full version... or wiki browsing maybe.
Did you bring a light?
...No...


Smash the Fash; The far right belongs in the TRASH.


Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #138 on: January 05, 2013, 07:47:58 AM »
Quote
The Faith Chart has nothing to do with the character's faction. You can change it by giving different skills and items.

Or you could think of it this way. Before you set skills to the character, there is a default setting. That would mostly indicate that the character in question is using that type of power. Reimu's bar is pretty far into the Tao section, compared to the other characters. This also isn't the first time that Reimu has been hinted at following Tao. While I wouldn't call her a taoist, but she does mostly follow Taoistic beliefs over Shinto beliefs, even if she is a Shinto shrine maiden.

Also, another thing to take is that there are no indications that she is representing the Shinto faction. Her winning stance show that she is decidedly neutral. That said, I am not arguing she is representing the Taoist faction. I am just arguing that her beliefs aligned with Tao, not that she represents them.

iK

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #139 on: January 05, 2013, 09:00:05 AM »
That webpage with those endings was actually posted in the Ten Desires thread within like, a week of the game going live. Though I'm probably one of the only people obsessive compulsive enough to hang onto these things, I suppose.

Or there are plenty of players that want to see them for themselves as a reward for putting up with Yoshika's bullcrap and Tojiko's lightning.
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MaStErSpArK94

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #140 on: January 05, 2013, 01:21:06 PM »
Am I the only one thinking that we'll probably get an Oriental Dark Flight remix as Marisa's theme (since we got Colorful Path for Reimu)?

Though, personally, I would love a Magus Night remix. :V
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 02:08:08 PM by Drizzly Magician »

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #141 on: January 05, 2013, 04:26:37 PM »
I'm going to point out two things for the "Reimu is Taoist!!!" discussion

1.) "Following Shinto beliefs" is kinda a silly thing to say given the nature of Shinto.

2.) If you wanna speculate like that take a look at the other two characters. They have the same large alignment to Tao in their standard decks, do you want to speculate Marisa and Ichirin are Taoist believers too? My guess is the alignment of a skill might simply have to do with whether it's melee or danmaku or something. Whichever it is, the standard values for all charas are neutral, the faith chart has literally no meaning at all in that regard. (Surprise, that was already pointed out a few times).

Amraphenson

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #142 on: January 05, 2013, 05:30:51 PM »
It's an arbitrary measurement. Stop looking too deep into it.
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Prime32

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #143 on: January 05, 2013, 06:21:15 PM »
2.) If you wanna speculate like that take a look at the other two characters. They have the same large alignment to Tao in their standard decks, do you want to speculate Marisa and Ichirin are Taoist believers too? My guess is the alignment of a skill might simply have to do with whether it's melee or danmaku or something. Whichever it is, the standard values for all charas are neutral, the faith chart has literally no meaning at all in that regard. (Surprise, that was already pointed out a few times).
Casting magic spells is a Taoist thing, so using magic spells to impress people will make them like Taoism. Simple as that.

Serela

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #144 on: January 05, 2013, 06:38:15 PM »
People are reading too far into it, especially in terms of the faith triangle in 13.5.

 However, Reimu being unintentionally Taoist is still definitely a thing, since it's been blatantly stated both by ZUN (as seen in the latter interview quotes; the first one is a vague inference, the second is much more solid) and in a game ending. (Which makes it clear that it's not just some translation silliness)
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #145 on: January 05, 2013, 06:47:49 PM »
While I wouldn't call her a taoist, but she does mostly follow Taoistic beliefs over Shinto beliefs, even if she is a Shinto shrine maiden.


"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Maiden Synnae ミ☆

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #146 on: January 05, 2013, 09:12:30 PM »
Too much oscillation there, but it's still clear enough for me nonetheless.

Sweetness and love~ ♥

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #147 on: January 05, 2013, 09:26:10 PM »
oscillation

I'm not sure that's the word you mean to use, but I think this nutty discussion is based on a misunderstanding; that there is absolutely no overlap of belief or practice between Taoism and Shinto, when in fact both Taoism and Buddhism have not only influenced Shinto, but all three share fundamental ideas and concepts. Therefore it's fairly easy to say "oh yeah, sure, she's a Shinto shrine maiden, BUT LOOK AT THIS TAOIST THING SHE DOES" when there are commonalities between the two.

In other words, yes, people are reading far too much into this.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Chuckolator

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #148 on: January 05, 2013, 11:35:12 PM »
Actually, I'm neither. I just wanted to fit in. :(
Aiming to perfect every stage in Touhou. loljk don't care anymore You can find my perfects here or here.
Best perfects so far include UFO 6, MoF 4 and IN 6A.

formerly known as Seiga Kaku

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #149 on: January 05, 2013, 11:41:10 PM »
Actually, I'm neither. I just wanted to fit in. :(

Well this is the best laugh I've had in a week!

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."