Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition

[Tiamat]

Iku's dialogue with Tenshi in Iku's storyline:

"I am supposed to make a report before warning the people of the lower world,
I considered,
but all of the Hinanawi clan was away from their homes.
Therefore, I went to warn everyone else first. "



Iku's win quote to Tenshi:

"I've said this before, but....
Lord Nai seems very angry now,
why don't you report to him by yourself for a change?"



Far as I can tell, she isn't subordinate to the Nai clain. She's subordinate to the Dragon's palace. So yea, it's just that her job involves dealing with them, not working FOR them. In the end, Iku is unable to punish Tenshi because Tenshi lies outside of Iku's authority (probably like how a member of the navy can't punish a member of the army because it's two different chains of command), not because Tenshi is Iku's superior.

[Imosa]

Aya's MoF profile says:
So they have a deal of some sort, but we don't know the details. Kanako's newspaper article in SoPM also shows them having a conflict over the specific rights the Tengu are granting to the shrine (specifically, an easement to create a path through tengu territory letting people visit the shrine; reminds me of Property Law).

Right, I can probably fit that in.

Edit: Sorry to keep constantly pointing out new things, but there's also a "Former Student" floating underneath Seiga that doesn't point to anything, probably left over from an earlier version. I suppose you should delete it?

You suppose correctly. Also constantly pointing out things is appreciated, I'd work on my own if I didn't want that.

I have a question about the nameless kappa in your chart: are they all based on actual characters from the manga? I don't think a typical kappa should have long and wavy hair. I do seem to recall seeing a kappa who wears glasses. They are much more likely to have boyish short and straight hair.

There were some kappa in WaHH chapter 12. I think I added the long hair for the sake of variety. I do like her the least though.

Far as I can tell, she isn't subordinate to the Nai clain. She's subordinate to the Dragon's palace. So yea, it's just that her job involves dealing with them, not working FOR them. In the end, Iku is unable to punish Tenshi because Tenshi lies outside of Iku's authority (probably like how a member of the navy can't punish a member of the army because it's two different chains of command), not because Tenshi is Iku's superior.

I wasn't thinking about this much at the time. I merely wanted to convey that she reports to the Hinanawi family, but you're right, she isn't described as a servant of the household, or even necessarily works for them and i was only doing that because I couldn't think of anything else to write about her. Thanks.
Her situation seems rather unfortunate, caught in the cross fire of other people's ordeals and just trying to do her job.

[Branneg Xy]

Your chart is shaping up nicely,Imosa.Good Ideas!Good job!
There's only detail ot ouf place and it can be easily fixed in version 4: Yuyuko and Suika dislikes each other so their relation ought to be "dislike".
I  re-quote myself :

Edit: Another little input-> seems that the hostility between Yuyuko and Suika has been overlooked.It's mentioned on both their wiki pages and is backed up by their interactions during IAMP(story and vs) and SWR/HST(vs). Suika

On top of that Yuyuko utterly ignores  Suika at the "Feast chapter" ,the end of Silent Sinner, by forgotting to even mention her; Yukari likely goes along with this 'cause she knows there's bad blood,jump to read my quote, between them.
A separate general advice would be to keep on adding more ,"respect","avoid",etc. squares and to include a "like"one opposed to "dislike"  but there's time for those.

[cuc]

I  re-quote myself :On top of that Yuyuko utterly ignores  Suika at the "Feast chapter" ,the end of Silent Sinner, by forgotting to even mention her; Yukari likely goes along with this 'cause she knows there's bad blood,jump to read my quote, between them.
A separate general advice would be to keep on adding more ,"respect","avoid",etc. squares and to include a "like"one opposed to "dislike"  but there's time for those.

Sorry, that appears to me to be blown way out of proportion. The Sakuya-Alice enmity has more concrete proof (and even that one, IMO is too subtle as to be out of the scope of such a chart).

Should there be an arrowhead pointing to Akyuu from "Subordinate"?

Nue should have a line pointing to the Myouren crowd, "feeling guilty for". That was her motivation for staying at Myouren temple and trying to help.

Re: kappa: I actually like that kappa, but I think you should base the kappa charcters on characters who actually appeared in WAHH.

[Tiamat]

My own personal belief is that Yuyuko knows Suika from the past (They're both old friends of Yukari and old big-name youkai in general. The chances of them not knowing each other is pretty slim) and the dialogue in IaMP was them not being very happy at seeing each other (but covering it up badly in snarky metaphors). However, there's nothing to actually PROVE that, and the fact that some of those metaphors get really confusing (at least, far as I can tell from the translation and my extremely limited understanding of Japanese culture) doesn't really help matters.

[Clarste]

Honestly, most character are more or less snarky with each other by default. I don't think it really creates noteworthy dislike.

[Raikaria]

Iku isn't a servant of the Hinawai, she's the Envoy of the Dragon. Any relationship with Tenshi and her clan is certainly not directly subservient. In fact, Iku might be the higher authority, especially, as other people say, she files reports to the Hinawai Clan when she knows there will be an Earthquake, since the Hinawai make the keystones to prevent/cause them. In other words 'Go fix this earthquake'.

[Clarste]

On a more general note, I think the arrows are really unintuitive for verbs. For relationships like "student" or "master" they make sense because it's like "my master is over at the end of this arrow", but for verbs like "worships" or "idolizes" or "visits" it seems completely backwards. I really can't wrap my head around how the beginning of the arrow is the "B" in "A worships B". Is that just me?

[Imosa]

Should there be an arrowhead pointing to Akyuu from "Subordinate"?

Yup, thanks.

Re: kappa: I actually like that kappa, but I think you should base the kappa charcters on characters who actually appeared in WAHH.

I might get her some shorter hair. You're right, long hair seems impractical for an amphibious species.

On a more general note, I think the arrows are really unintuitive for verbs. For relationships like "student" or "master" they make sense because it's like "my master is over at the end of this arrow", but for verbs like "worships" or "idolizes" or "visits" it seems completely backwards. I really can't wrap my head around how the beginning of the arrow is the "B" in "A worships B". Is that just me?

Its not just you, its been bothering me since the beginning. According to the key, all relationships should be singular nouns. To that end I've already noted that "sisters" and "friends" should be "sister" and "friend". However, I feel I will have to break that rule in a few places. The relationship between Suika and Kasen, is "avoids" but I can't really think of a singular noun to put there. Changing "worships" to "worshiper" is pretty easy so I can do that.

I might add the Yuyuko-Suika and Nue-Myouren Temple relations. The plan was to be done with that part, at this point. Any relations that are still added will be because they are important or because they are convenient.

My own personal belief is that Yuyuko knows Suika from the past (They're both old friends of Yukari and old big-name youkai in general. The chances of them not knowing each other is pretty slim) and the dialogue in IaMP was them not being very happy at seeing each other (but covering it up badly in snarky metaphors). However, there's nothing to actually PROVE that, and the fact that some of those metaphors get really confusing (at least, far as I can tell from the translation and my extremely limited understanding of Japanese culture) doesn't really help matters.

The chart is trying to stay as canon as possible and sometimes that means having to ignore some common sense. For example, that they are both old friends of Yukari, and big-name youkai does seem like reasonable grounds for them to know each other and have a relationship. However, all the members of the SDM live in the same house, and yet relationships are surprisingly sparse.

I just noticed that I forgot Kasen's last name.

[Clarste]

I just noticed that I forgot Kasen's last name.

Huh. So you did. Are you gonna use Ibara or Ibaraki? Because Ibara is kind of a nickname, but that's how she introduces herself.

On the topic of names though: Shikeiki. Um... that's really a pet peeve of mine, but even the wiki has embraced changing it to Eiki Shiki. It's kind of confusing because she ends up with 3 names, but Yamaxanadu is more of a title. And Reisen gets 3 names anyway, so who cares?

[Imosa]

Huh. So you did. Are you gonna use Ibara or Ibaraki? Because Ibara is kind of a nickname, but that's how she introduces herself.

On the topic of names though: Shikeiki. Um... that's really a pet peeve of mine, but even the wiki has embraced changing it to Eiki Shiki. It's kind of confusing because she ends up with 3 names, but Yamaxanadu is more of a title. And Reisen gets 3 names anyway, so who cares?

I'll probably use Ibaraki. Also I'll probably change... that person's name to Eiki Shiki. I just got that from LP's chart.

[Clarste]

Also, there's no evidence that Myouren is named Hijiri. It's kind of a common assumption that his name is Hijiri for obvious reasons, but as far as I know the historical monk wasn't named Hijiri, and Buddhism has a tradition of monks changing their names when initiated so there's not even a reason to think they would have the same family name.

I'm not saying his name definitely isn't Hijiri, but it's a fanon assumption rather than a confirmed fact.

[cuc]

Short answer:

Myouren has never been called "Hijiri Myouren" in canon, and you can't assume Hijiri to be his name. You should use Ibaraki.

Long explanation:

1) Hijiri is not a real surname. I can't find it in a Japanese surname database, and all the names that contain it as a surname on Wikipedia are pen names.

The word itself originally means "saint" (the actual word root is more obscure), but has obtained a very commonly used meaning of "itinerant monk" (see Byakuren's DS spell card "Yugyou Hijiri"). Given that it's unlikely to be Byakuren's real surname, it's probably a name she gave herself; and since it's ridiculous to call oneself "Saint", she must be using it to mean "itinerant monk". Further more, there doesn't seem to be any historical precedence of monks doing that, so this looks like a ZUN invention.

2) "Ibarakasen" 茨華仙 has been referred to as a nickname, but the short publisher blurb for WaHH Vol. 3 says it's her 号 (gou), a self-styled title. In reality, 茨華仙 looks somewhat like a title that may appear in a fantasy novel.

[Imosa]

Fixed Kasen's, Hijiri's and Eiki Sheiki's names. I added a connection for Nue to Myouren Temple.
I also removed all the all the descriptions, for now. I'd like to see if we can at least agree on this now so that I can upload it onto Danboru. Here's the link.

[Clarste]

You've still got an "avoids" pointing at Kasen. It seems you were trying to change the rest into nouns, so I guess you missed that. Not entirely sure how to put that as a noun though.

"Allie" is not a word. The singular of "Allies" is "Ally".

Still no line between Tenma and Kanako, but maybe not important.

[cuc]

Toyohime's son is Yorihime's husband, but that may also be unimportant.

[Clarste]

That's not really a canon detail, is it? It's just something you can infer from the mythological figures they're based on. I think the most detail we get about the husbands is that they're both distantly related to Eirin (she calls them grandnephews). Which of course doesn't exclude the specific relationship you mention, but it's not spelled out.

[Imosa]

You've still got an "avoids" pointing at Kasen. It seems you were trying to change the rest into nouns, so I guess you missed that. Not entirely sure how to put that as a noun though.

Like I said, I couldn't noun it.

"Allie" is not a word. The singular of "Allies" is "Ally".

lol, right.

Still no line between Tenma and Kanako, but maybe not important.

Yeah, things were kinda hectic last night and I didn't feel like adding it. Maybe it will still make it in but honestly, that one would probably get an explanation and just the relationship might be a little unhelpful.

Toyohime's son is Yorihime's husband, but that may also be unimportant.

First off, whaaa? Second, yeah I'm gonna call that unimportant for this version.

[Imosa]

Ok, uploaded to danboru
I feel like I should preemptively add the typo tag.

[cuc]

Eirin in CiLR Ch.1 (literal translation): "to put it in human terms, from my perspective, one of them is wife of my grandnephew, the other is wife of son of my grandnephew husband and wife".

Technically you can say there's room for ambiguity, Eirin can have many grandnephews etc. But there's not much to be gained in assuming their relationship isn't like the gods they are based on, when it is described to resemble that using such specific terms.

[Imosa]

Eirin in CiLR Ch.1 (literal translation): "to put it in human terms, from my perspective, one of them is wife of my grandnephew, the other is wife of son of my grandnephew husband and wife".

Technically you can say there's room for ambiguity, Eirin can have many grandnephews etc. But there's not much to be gained in assuming their relationship isn't like the gods they are based on, when it is described to resemble that using such specific terms.

You've given us a rather awkward sentence. The grammatical incorrectness makes me wonder what the sentence is actually saying. In regard to the relations of people, you're saying that when she mentions the wife of the grandnephew in the second part of the sentence (it also mentions the husband of the grandnephew so polygamy I guess), you think that's Toyohime? If she was already describing her relation to both of them, why would she mention her so i directly, why allow for the ambiguity at all?
Also it's not a matter of gaining anything by assuming the relationships are different then their counter parts, it's just to be correct about these things.
It's tempting to add something about this stuff since it fits right into the purpose of the chart but it does seem unnecessarily specific. Maybe they all just need a relationship called "Family Lunacy". I don't suppose there's any genealogy on Kaguya is there?

[Clarste]

You've given us a rather awkward sentence. The grammatical incorrectness makes me wonder what the sentence is actually saying. In regard to the relations of people, you're saying that when she mentions the wife of the grandnephew in the second part of the sentence (it also mentions the husband of the grandnephew so polygamy I guess), you think that's Toyohime? If she was already describing her relation to both of them, why would she mention her so i directly, why allow for the ambiguity at all?
Also it's not a matter of gaining anything by assuming the relationships are different then their counter parts, it's just to be correct about these things.
It's tempting to add something about this stuff since it fits right into the purpose of the chart but it does seem unnecessarily specific. Maybe they all just need a relationship called "Family Lunacy". I don't suppose there's any genealogy on Kaguya is there?

I'd call them "Distant In-laws" myself. Grandnephew is hardly a close relation in the first place, and the main point is simply that they're part of Eirin's extended family. On the other hand, they already have the more important relationship of master-pupil, so it doesn't really matter.

[cuc]

I'm only making suggestions. Unless it's seriously important, it's up to you to decide what to include

You've given us a rather awkward sentence. The grammatical incorrectness makes me wonder what the sentence is actually saying.

It's not grammatically incorrect, only not something a native speaker will ever say. I was trying to be as literal as possible, so as to avoid adding info not present in the original text. A comparatively more natural expression would be "one is married to my grandnephew, the other is married to son of my grandnephew family". The deal with "husband and wife" is that it's just one word 夫婦 in Japanese, and used a lot more often than in English. In English we would just say "my grandnephew family".

If she was already describing her relation to both of them, why would she mention her so i directly, why allow for the ambiguity at all?

Because this sentence has an acceptable level of clarity in Japanese, and ZUN always writes with as much ambiguity as possible. However, as I said, this sentence is only meaningful if it is a reference to the background mythology; it would be strange to present so specific a detail that don't serve any clear purpose.

Today I've been told that Youki being "Youmu's old man" is a mistranslation. In the context, this sentence has no ambiguity: Youki is Youmu's grandfather. I looked it up in dictionary, and that seems to be true.

BTW, that translation has another important error: Youki believes "skills are learnt by stealing", and cannot be taught by mouth, not "Youki's moves are all stolen".

[Imosa]

With the coming of new games it's time to revive this project. While the new characters don't seem to have any relations, according to the touhou wiki, I do know that some exist (Kokoro has connection to Miko, at least).
One question in particular that I had was if Koishi should be moved to the Buddhist temple. I was under the impression that she wandered around and occasionally dropped into the palace of the earth spirits, but apparently, she has a place in the Buddhist temple. I'm not 100% on the idea but it does sound like the right thing to do.
I hadn't realized this until now but it seems that Reimu is in general stronger then Marisa and Marisa sees beating Reimu as a personal goal. How long has this been a thing? I only recently noticed it, although I don't know where.
I'll have to read up on the text in Hopeless Masquerade before I find more stuff.

[ToyoRai]

I hadn't realized this until now but it seems that Reimu is in general stronger then Marisa and Marisa sees beating Reimu as a personal goal. How long has this been a thing? I only recently noticed it, although I don't know where.

Accorting to TvTropes, Marisa has always considered herself to be the second-best person in Gensokyo next to Reimu (which she finds pride in, and for good reason when you consider how much Reimu has achieved). I cannot find anything to really prove it in games or printed works, so don't think this is straight out true, but the information in TvTropes is fairly relieable in my opinion.

[Sagus]

Miko created the masks that eventually became Kokoro, so I guess you could put their relationship as "Miko -> Unintentional creator -> Kokoro" "Kokoro -> Unintentional creation -> Miko", since I don't think Miko actually wanted to make a youkai.

Kagerou mentions that she accidentaly tried to eat Wakasagihime once. Dunno if that's really relevant to put in the chart, though.

[ToyoRai]

Miko created the masks that eventually became Kokoro, so I guess you could put their relationship as "Miko -> Unintentional creator -> Kokoro" "Kokoro -> Unintentional creation -> Miko", since I don't think Miko actually wanted to make a youkai.

Also, accorting to Mamizou's story, Miko later made a new Mask of Hope to Kokoro (though she declines using it due of it being too perfect, which would take away the individuality she has and turn her back to being just ordinary masks)

[Kaze_Senshi]

Miko is Kokoro's mommy?

[Imosa]

Accorting to TvTropes, Marisa has always considered herself to be the second-best person in Gensokyo next to Reimu (which she finds pride in, and for good reason when you consider how much Reimu has achieved). I cannot find anything to really prove it in games or printed works, so don't think this is straight out true, but the information in TvTropes is fairly relieable in my opinion.

Well, they seem pretty rival-ish here.

Kagerou mentions that she accidentaly tried to eat Wakasagihime once. Dunno if that's really relevant to put in the chart, though.

Its actually really tempting. I wish there were more A-[tried to eat]->B relationships in gensokyo besides this and Yuyuko Mystia.

[Sagus]

Also, accorting to Mamizou's story, Miko later made a new Mask of Hope to Kokoro (though she declines using it due of it being too perfect, which would take away the individuality she has and turn her back to being just ordinary masks)

Yeah, you can see it in Miko's ending.

The mask looks like Miko's face.

She's a funny Emperor of Japan, that one.

Miko is Kokoro's mommy?

Yeeeeeeeeeep