Author Topic: Am I the only one who prefers...?  (Read 24142 times)

EthanSilver

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Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2012, 02:20:08 AM »
Holy crap, I thought I was the ONLY person who knew that! Eirin isn't immortal, she's just freaking old! I seriously have no idea at all where people get the whole ''Eirin is immortal'' thing.
I think it's because she's one of the "big bosses" from IN and everyone else is immortal - seems easy to generalize and throw her in with the rest... Also, with the whole Hourai Elixir; it's probably assumed by most who think she's immortal that she already took it herself a long time ago (even though nothing canonical even hints at anything like that).

It's hilariously sad for Mokou. I mean, Mokou sees it as an eternal revenge full of death and suffering for causing her father's death, Kaguya is pretty much just playing around.
It's ironic that they'll probably end up stuck with one-another eventually. Being immortal and all that. Who knows, Gensokyo's final days may be of them fighting (or at peace?) through an empty, lifeless wasteland eternally. Which is kind of grim and sad for the both of them.


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Ikari

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Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2012, 02:21:52 AM »
Yeah, that's the really sucky part of immortality.

game2011

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Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2012, 03:43:44 AM »
In regards to Eirin being immortal...  I didn't believe that at first, but supposedly, some people here claims that after looking into more accurate translations regarding Ghost Team's ending, Eirin did take the elixir and become immortal.  The whole "immortal can't go to the netherworld" thing actually refers to immortals can never go there naturally, meaning going there by dying, but they can still go there by themselves.

With what I heard here, I don't know what to believe anymore...  And there's also the Eirin being a goddess thing...

Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2012, 08:46:02 AM »
That is an argument made by how Eirin could be immortal. However, there is no conclusive proof that it is the case.
The ghost team ending can just be them bantering, like they usually do.

I think the whole reason why Eirin could be a goddess is because she is supposedly similar to Omoikane. Considering how old she is, I wouldn't be too surprise if that were true. I think Yorihime and Toyohime are supposedly goddesses, so Eirin could very well be one.

Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2012, 10:17:51 AM »
In regards to Eirin being immortal...  I didn't believe that at first, but supposedly, some people here claims that after looking into more accurate translations regarding Ghost Team's ending, Eirin did take the elixir and become immortal.  The whole "immortal can't go to the netherworld" thing actually refers to immortals can never go there naturally, meaning going there by dying, but they can still go there by themselves.

With what I heard here, I don't know what to believe anymore...  And there's also the Eirin being a goddess thing...

Don't think too much about it. This part of Touhou canon is exceptionally fuzzy. Just go with whatever you want to believe.

That is an argument made by how Eirin could be immortal. However, there is no conclusive proof that it is the case.
The ghost team ending can just be them bantering, like they usually do.

I think the whole reason why Eirin could be a goddess is because she is supposedly similar to Omoikane. Considering how old she is, I wouldn't be too surprise if that were true. I think Yorihime and Toyohime are supposedly goddesses, so Eirin could very well be one.

If the Lunarians are gods, then faith is what makes them tick. And I've yet to see them bringing up this "faith" problem even once.

The question is, will they disappear when people stop believing in them? I seriously doubt the answer to this is "yes".

That's why I always think of them as mere humans who gain superpowers because of their purity. We could call them the more "enlightened" version of humanity.

Also, does anyone here know whether Lunarians are immune to diseases or not in virtue of them being Lunarians? I prefer to make them immune to diseases but there's that whole thing of Eirin being a doctor/Lunarian sage who watches over Earth in the old times.

game2011

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Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2012, 11:45:57 AM »
Lunarians can live forever, but they are still susceptible to dying from illnesses, injuries, hunger, lack of air, etc.   They just can't die from old age.

Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2012, 11:58:58 AM »
Lunarians can live forever, but they are still susceptible to dying from illnesses, injuries, hunger, lack of air, etc.   They just can't die from old age.

Hmm, perhaps we should look at this from another perspective. Maybe there are no diseases in the Moon because of its pure environment.

AnonymousPondScum

Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2012, 12:53:38 PM »
Hmm, perhaps we should look at this from another perspective. Maybe there are no diseases in the Moon because of its pure environment.

IIRC that's prettymuch the case.

OkashiiKisei

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Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2012, 03:12:00 PM »
Lunarians can live forever, but they are still susceptible to dying from illnesses, injuries, hunger, lack of air, etc.   They just can't die from old age.
Hmm, perhaps we should look at this from another perspective. Maybe there are no diseases in the Moon because of its pure environment.

iirc It is the moon's purity that makes the Lunarians ageless as well. A Lunarian wouldn't have such longevity on Earth.

By the way, here are the threads that cover the IN mistranslations:

http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,8344.msg836584.html#msg836584

http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,12776.0.html

Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2012, 03:23:26 PM »
iirc It is the moon's purity that makes the Lunarians ageless as well. A Lunarian wouldn't have such longevity on Earth.

By the way, here are the threads that cover the IN mistranslations:

http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,8344.msg836584.html#msg836584

http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,12776.0.html

So, are they already added to the wiki yet?

About their longevity on Earth, I'm curious. How long would it take for a Lunarian to become "corrupted" if he/she stays on Earth?

Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2012, 04:15:24 AM »
Don't know. But Eirin could have created a medicine to counteract this aging issue.
I believe Kaguya mentioned that they(herself, Eirin, and Reisen) have been tainted by impurity of the earth and that is a good thing.

Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2012, 04:25:58 AM »
Wonder why they view it as a good thing.

And if Eirin has a medicine that stops aging, would she sell it in the Human Village?

Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2012, 08:20:47 AM »
Wonder why they view it as a good thing.

Prolly cause Kaguya is more down to earth than the other lunarians.

Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2012, 09:19:06 AM »

Ikari

  • I'm just so charismatic
  • It's turning into derp
Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2012, 11:23:14 AM »
Wonder why they view it as a good thing.

And if Eirin has a medicine that stops aging, would she sell it in the Human Village?

That would make Gensokyo overpopulated and cause lack of food and houses for the poor humans :P

Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2012, 12:37:54 PM »
Eh, it'll be a while before that happens. Gensokyo is quite large after all.

AnonymousPondScum

Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2012, 01:43:49 PM »
>>>Gensokyo

>>>Limited space

>>>Obeying the laws of physics

>>>laughingtewi.jpg

Ikari

  • I'm just so charismatic
  • It's turning into derp
Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2012, 10:00:25 PM »
*facepalms* Silly me; *psycho Sanae face* Can't let common sense drag me down!  :]

Though, food would be a problem, it's actually a matter stated numerous time in various written canon material.

AnonymousPondScum

Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2012, 10:04:44 PM »
*facepalms* Silly me; *psycho Sanae face* Can't let common sense drag me down!  :]

Though, food would be a problem, it's actually a matter stated numerous time in various written canon material.

Yeah, but even then THAT goes through a pair of mountain goddesses and other assorted oddballs instead of dealing with such puny things as the laws of thermodynamics.

Ikari

  • I'm just so charismatic
  • It's turning into derp
Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2012, 10:10:35 PM »
Yeah, but even then THAT goes through a pair of mountain goddesses and other assorted oddballs instead of dealing with such puny things as the laws of thermodynamics.

True. But ya know, if anything went wrong, Yukari can just fool with the borders again to prevent Eirin's shady medicine to accomplish the plan of the Moriya shrine conspiracy the taoists thought of.

AnonymousPondScum

Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #50 on: September 05, 2012, 10:46:19 PM »
True. But ya know, if anything went wrong, Yukari can just fool with the borders again to prevent Eirin's shady medicine to accomplish the plan of the Moriya shrine conspiracy the taoists thought of.

TOUHOU 14: IN WHICH ANOTHER BUNCH OF SCHEMING MORONS IS INTRODUCED AND EVERYONE FORGETS WHAT THEIR ORIGINAL PLAN WAS, LEAVING GENSOKYO TO DESCEND INTO AN ENDLESS CASCADE OF TROLLING, Part the 1st.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 10:49:01 PM by Blissful Beleaguered Buddhist »

Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #51 on: September 05, 2012, 10:54:09 PM »
If the Lunarians are gods, then faith is what makes them tick. And I've yet to see them bringing up this "faith" problem even once.

The question is, will they disappear when people stop believing in them? I seriously doubt the answer to this is "yes".

That's why I always think of them as mere humans who gain superpowers because of their purity. We could call them the more "enlightened" version of humanity.

Also, does anyone here know whether Lunarians are immune to diseases or not in virtue of them being Lunarians? I prefer to make them immune to diseases but there's that whole thing of Eirin being a doctor/Lunarian sage who watches over Earth in the old times.

ZUN says in the SOPM interview that gods live on the moon, so even if most of the Lunarians are merely super-humans (which I agree with), they're living alongside real gods. Throw in the "Eirin is one of them" line and it's seems very plausible to me that Eirin is a god, even if the other Lunarians we know aren't.
Eh, it'll be a while before that happens. Gensokyo is quite large after all.

Gensokyo is quite small, isn't it? Byakuren even mentions that she thinks they'll have food supply problems because there isn't enough farmland.

Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #52 on: September 05, 2012, 11:03:07 PM »
ZUN says in the SOPM interview that gods live on the moon, so even if most of the Lunarians are merely super-humans (which I agree with), they're living alongside real gods. Throw in the "Eirin is one of them" line and it's seems very plausible to me that Eirin is a god, even if the other Lunarians we know aren't.

I'm still not convinced that Eirin's a god. Is Omoikane still famous in the Outside World, that is assuming it's her "god" identity?

Gensokyo is quite small, isn't it? Byakuren even mentions that she thinks they'll have food supply problems because there isn't enough farmland.

I think that's more because the humans don't dare to cut down parts of the forests and disturb the youkai to build more farmland.

Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #53 on: September 05, 2012, 11:11:18 PM »
I'm still not convinced that Eirin's a god. Is Omoikane still famous in the Outside World, that is assuming it's her "god" identity?

Well, she could hardly be anyone else if she's a god, given that Omoikane's full name is "Yagokoro Omoikane". I would say Omoikane's definitely pretty famous (he gets listed as a "major Shinto god"), but it's hard to say how fame would translate into faith. We haven't seen much explanation of the "higher gods" at all though, which would presumably include Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and Omoikane. Maybe they work somewhat differently.

Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2012, 12:29:05 AM »
I feel like I'm going way off topic... What am I arguing foooor.

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This is inaccurate. We don't even know if Eirin is immortal or not. There is no canon proof on this part.

Already addressed.  Btw, I thought everyone already took her immortality for granted.

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Does not contradict with canon. They do have a ritual cleaning in which you can clean impurities. Lunarians used to be humans from earth. They would have "tainted" the moon ages ago if there was not a way to cleanse themselves and others.

I've got curious about this.

A single "impure" bullet from Reimu's Omagatsumi could ruin the moon ("let it go, and you'll bring death to the Moon", "if you don't smash the bullets one by one, the moon will become the same as earth"). If Toyohime could just "cleanse" such impurity, why would she go to the length of threatening Reimu's life to stop it (which, would also "taint" the Moon, I presume)?

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Kaguya does not care enough to destroy the bamboo. It isn't like being stuck hurts her.

"I can't get out by myself", she says.

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That said, let's not forget that it isn't that she isn't physically fit, it is that she is psychologically lazy. She can easily do a stretch that is impossible for even fit people, but can barely touch her knees with her hands.

Huh?
She clearly couldn't stretch nor do push ups. I don't know how being "psycologycally lazy" would stop her from doing those.

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Everyone has a soul, souls don't have a particular size, but the body has a particular size. If souls can freely create a size, then anyone, not just Kaguya can be of any size they want. What the Hourai Elixir does is causes the soul to become invincible. It doesn't actually change a soul's state.

I should've cited the entire quote.

"Immortality is like casting away the physical body.
It is for one's true self to become merely the soul, and to be able to produce new a new flesh from that.
Souls don't have a particular size, so they can freely create another body wherever they like. "

Even if Mokou wasn't blowing her up lately, the "create another body wherever they like" covers my reasoning.

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What about the weaponry in Kourindou? Guns is not something that is out of place. Those are probably weapons that imaginative designers tried to do, but failed, because of impraticality and thus it fell into fantasy lands.

Quite the wildcard argument you pulled there.



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This is false. Reisen cannot give orders to Tewi. Eirin never gave Reisen the authority to do this. However, Reisen takes it upon herself to order Tewi, even though she isn't supposed to. Her thinking is probably on the lines of since she is Eirin apprentice and she believes Eirin is the boss, then she would have authority over the rabbits. This is untrue and we know this from canon, not just from Inaba of Earth/Moon.
If you check other canon sources, like Cage in Lunatic Runagate, Eirin does not order Tewi around. When Eirin first met Tewi, they made an agreement, not that Eirin was Tewi's boss. The relationship between Eirin and Tewi are of equals, not of a superior and a subject. Eirin does not actually have authority to order the rabbits around, only Tewi can do that.
Here is the link: http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Cage_in_Lunatic_Runagate/First_Chapter

Ok, I take that back. Sorry.

But I still don't understand what your reasoning is. Most things that happens to her (even when brought by people outside of Eientei) has nothing to do with the rabbits, even if they had, the fact is that she's still a buttmonkey.

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As I have already mentioned, Reisen deserves a lot of this. Refer to that link to see why.

You're implying that Eirin is taking revenge for the rabbits, the ones that she doesn't care and even experiments on?

Still, doesn't diminishes the fact that she's a sadist. Even if it's just on Reisen.

Anyway, you're just giving more examples of discrepancies, since Reisen is the only one that treat the rabbits well in Inaba. Talking about rabbits, aren't they supposed to be "little girls"? Shape changing isn't out of question since they're youkai, but still, you'd expect them to protest when being painted and sold, played around like balls, used as futon-warmer, used as fish bait, used as Mokou-bait, or being freaking kidnapped by Toyohime.

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Mokou may have a fued with her, but for Kaguya, it is just fun and games. This is verified in Cage in Lunatic Runagate.
I don't see anything ignored, you may want to check out Cage in Lunatic Runagate if you are seeing some differences in characterization.

I know the Mokou episode from Lunatic Runagate.

Actually, Mokou moved on, but Kaguya is still on it, apparently going herself as well (Always trying to kill me... Always sending assassins... She KNOWS that I'll never die!). Then when they meet, Mokou's the one that wants to fight, but Kaguya tried to "avoid" it. Ok then, let's move on... food fight! Hooray. Way to ruin the gruesome Mokou and somewhat sadistic Kaguya ZUN created.

It doesn't matter how many times I read Lunatic Runagate, Silent Sinner in Blue and beat IN (after all, Kaguya is my favourite character... I can't get enough of her), I just won't see her being unrefined, lazy, childish and silly (all typical moe traits... ahem) like in the Inabas. Because, well...... she was not. Until now, of course.
May ZUN protect my waifu so she can be perfect as I want (
Spoiler:
sorry
)

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That is an argument made by how Eirin could be immortal. However, there is no conclusive proof that it is the case.
The ghost team ending can just be them bantering, like they usually do.

You realize that if we use this kind of approach to everything important said by the characters, we can pretty much create whatever canon pleases us, right? You deserve another Moko-tan stare.


Btw, ZUN must've been drunk when he gave that interview. His view on SWR and Tenshi was completely... uh... inaccurate, to say the least.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 12:34:00 AM by M M »

Ikari

  • I'm just so charismatic
  • It's turning into derp
Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2012, 12:48:46 AM »
But about the whole ghost team ending; Didn't Yuyuko offer poisoned sake/wine/a drink whatsoever that contained poison so they could kill her, and thus have a nurse in the netherworld? If Eirin outright refused to drink the whatever, knowing in had poison in it, doesn't that slightly hints she's in fact not immortal? I mean, if someone offered me poison and I was immortal, I'd at LEAST point out that it wouldn't work anyway.

Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2012, 12:49:37 AM »
Btw, ZUN must've been drunk when he gave that interview. His view on SWR and Tenshi was completely... uh... inaccurate, to say the least.

No, the better question is, "When is ZUN not drunk?"

Also, I like his view of Tenshi, mostly because I'm a fan of her.

Ikari

  • I'm just so charismatic
  • It's turning into derp
Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2012, 01:00:39 AM »
No, the better question is, "When is ZUN not drunk?"

Also, I like his view of Tenshi, mostly because I'm a fan of her.

Would you please tell me what ZUN said and all? I missed that, and I'm a fan of Tenshi as well so I'm interested  :D

AnonymousPondScum

Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2012, 01:02:37 AM »
>>>Moeblob Kaguya not canon

>>>Mengele-Eirin *is* canon

Excuse me, what the Devil is this.

Ikari

  • I'm just so charismatic
  • It's turning into derp
Re: Am I the only one who prefers...?
« Reply #59 on: September 06, 2012, 01:07:12 AM »
A discussion about character interpretation. Touhou is probably the game with the most of those. No one sees the same character the same way, I guess.

*Personally likes moeblob Kaguya and Nazi Eirin*