Alice's True Form (Theory)

[Kyaksa]

Idk... I'm just thinking about something, if we considered that ZUN does use some of the original game background.... that Alice was a young human girl. She looked around the age between 9 to 13(maybe younger??). So let's just say thing... why did she turn into an adult in such a small amount of time?

Just thinking of the classic fantasy... a demon's true form is it's most powerful level, since it is it's origin. Like Vampires, illusionary demons etc etc...

What if Alice's true form is actually hidden within the Grimoire, that is MS-Alice? Since technically all demons take a long time to develop into adult forms... so why would a young girl become a young adult in such a short amount of time? Physically I think it's a bit impossible... so since we know cannonically that Alice holds back because she's a coward and side with tactic strategy when attacking, maybe because she's afraid of losing control or something else...

It's like giving a young body something too much the handle and Her Original Body/Mentality broke, so when she releases the full power of her grimoire, 'her true self' will be exposed. Which could explain her cowardice...

PS: Btw... I read somewhere (I hope I'm wrong) that ZUN specifically stated 1-5 Touhou is in 'Another Gensokyo', which would mean... All the original Yuuka, Alice, MArisa and Reimu background never really happen in before 6-13 D: Kinda saddening since it definitely proves that Mima will probably never return since she was an original villian, unlike Yuuka or Alice. (Yuuka didn't do much really, Alice was only just trying to protect her mother/Master)

[game2011]

The one about "alternate Gensokyo" isn't actually true.  ZUN's wording is more like the events of the first five games did happen, but they are no longer relevant, so whether or not they take place in the same universe as the current games doesn't matter anymore.

[Tengukami]

I thought any anomalies concerning Alice's age and appearance were on account of her being a youkai magician. Which, especially in the context of the already anti-logical Gensokyo, means that pretty much anything's possible.

[Drake]

So let's just say thing... why did she turn into an adult in such a small amount of time?

magic

Just thinking of the classic fantasy... a demon's true form is it's most powerful level, since it is it's origin. [...] technically all demons take a long time to develop into adult forms...

where does anything ever imply that

so since we know cannonically that Alice holds back because she's a coward and side with tactic strategy when attacking, maybe because she's afraid of losing control or something else...

She's afraid of being defeated at her best.

PS: Btw... I read somewhere (I hope I'm wrong) that ZUN specifically stated 1-5 Touhou is in 'Another Gensokyo', which would mean... All the original Yuuka, Alice, MArisa and Reimu background never really happen in before 6-13 D:

Don't think too much about how PC98 does/doesn't connect with Windows series.

Kinda saddening since it definitely proves that Mima will probably never return since she was an original villian, unlike Yuuka or Alice. (Yuuka didn't do much really, Alice was only just trying to protect her mother/Master)

This doesn't make sense at all. Yuuka was a stage 5 and last boss and a playable character the next game. Alice was a stage 3 and EX boss. Mima was a stage 10 boss, last boss, playable, and playable. I can't even tell what "original villain" means or why it would matter or prove that she won't return.

[EthanSilver]

Last I checked, Alice was Shinki's daughter so her being human is completely out of the question.

As for her age, youkai are apparitions - physical manifestations of spiritual entities - so appearances aren't all that meaningful. Take Tewi, who appears as a young girl but, in fact, makes Yukari look like a newborn by comparaison... If there's any connection to be had between PC-98 Alice and Windows Alice, I don't see why she wouldn't opt for a more serious form after some time'd have passed. If not, ZUN probably simply reworked her appearance after her not being around for several games and his art style improving since then.

[AnonymousPondScum]

Last I checked, Alice was Shinki's daughter so her being human is completely out of the question.

Adopted, maybe? :V

[Zil]

Last I checked, Alice was Shinki's daughter so her being human is completely out of the question.

I'm pretty sure it's never been said that she's Shinki's daughter, whereas I believe it is canon that she was once human. The daughter idea came from Shinki saying she "created everything in Makai, or something, but that's akin to saying Rika constructed the ghosts in SoEW because she claimed to have built everything there.

Personally I take the difference in appearance to be nothing more than ZUN being inconsistent with his art. (Everyone looks older; it's just a bit more noticeable with Alice.)

[Starxsword]

According to Perfect Momento in Strict Sense, Alice is human, then became a magician.
As there are no proof in any other works saying otherwise, Alice can only assumed to be human turned into a magician.

Also, like Reimu, Alice is afraid of losing at her best, so she holds back.

[cuc]

Many theorists believe the "Death of the Honest Men" story printed in the booklet of "Dolls in Pseudo Paradise" CD-R version is key to understanding Alice. Ideas include "the blonde girl is Alice", "a ritual to turn a human into a demon" and so on.

I'm personally not strongly interested in figuring out Alice's origin, and only view "Death of the Honest Men" as an in-universe horror story set in Gensokyo, possibly told by Alice.

[Starxsword]

Wow, if you hadn't posted that, I would have missed the reference completely. After reading that again, yes, it does seem like the person mentioned there is Alice. Before that, I thought it was Flandre or something, but it makes so much more sense now.

I don't think any of those men were honest. They were thieves and Alice was just cleaning trash.

Near the end makes me second guess myself though, since it does talk about her exiting paradise, which would mean Gensokyo.

[Kyaksa]

Quote from: Kyaksa on August 13, 2012, 04:04:11 pm
So let's just say thing... why did she turn into an adult in such a small amount of time?

magic

Quote from: Kyaksa on August 13, 2012, 04:04:11 pm
Just thinking of the classic fantasy... a demon's true form is it's most powerful level, since it is it's origin. [...] technically all demons take a long time to develop into adult forms...

where does anything ever imply that

Quote from: Kyaksa on August 13, 2012, 04:04:11 pm
Kinda saddening since it definitely proves that Mima will probably never return since she was an original villian, unlike Yuuka or Alice. (Yuuka didn't do much really, Alice was only just trying to protect her mother/Master)

This doesn't make sense at all. Yuuka was a stage 5 and last boss and a playable character the next game. Alice was a stage 3 and EX boss. Mima was a stage 10 boss, last boss, playable, and playable. I can't even tell what "original villain" means or why it would matter or prove that she won't return.

I'm just saying none of the enemies in (maybe with the exception of 1?)  had real good reason to be 'the villian' kind of like recent enemies but like how Utshio is. A Person who intentionally wants to hurt the people who attack. Remilia just wanted to walk outside with more easy (not particularly caring of the consequences) like every other 'boss'-like character. They were just doing their own thing with no real intentional harm towards others. Yuuka in 4 wanted to pass the time, Shiki wanted to make a traveling business (which could be fatal seeing how demons could eat humans in the outside world). Original(/Classic, if you want to say) Villain a who does an incident in a way to hurt or gain vengeances.

Even though Utshio got mad with an overflow of power, she wanted to burn the world like a burning hell.

Mima had reason to be a villain and maybe one of the reason she probable will never come back. That or Reimu put her soul to sleep :\.

Also... it is stated that demon take a long time to develop, however illusionary existence does make it all possible.

But what I meant by 'True form' is that with magical beings... unlike humans, ever creature shows itself on how it desires to do so, but we don't see their real form... if you ever read/Watch/play any type of story that had an enemy, magical ally... there is always more than one form, and isn't the core form the honest raw power of a creatures existences?

Though since when has Reimu, like ALice, been afraid of losing? Reimu doesn't particularly care about winning or losing, she doesn't even work hard at it since she's naturally talented. Only reason she fights is because she has to stop the incident or if she gains something out of the incident (Like showed in UFO).

Last I checked, Alice was Shinki's daughter so her being human is completely out of the question.

As for her age, youkai are apparitions - physical manifestations of spiritual entities - so appearances aren't all that meaningful. Take Tewi, who appears as a young girl but, in fact, makes Yukari look like a newborn by comparaison... If there's any connection to be had between PC-98 Alice and Windows Alice, I don't see why she wouldn't opt for a more serious form after some time'd have passed. If not, ZUN probably simply reworked her appearance after her not being around for several games and his art style improving since then.

Yeah... I really like the idea, since it partially proven, that Tewi is The White Rabbit of Inaba... i think Tewi would be pissed to learn that her god has been trapped by the Lunarians. I've always wondered if she knew of such a truth, since she allows the Lunarians to stay on their home habitat in return that Eirin teaches her the things she knows.

[OkashiiKisei]

Idk... I'm just thinking about something, if we considered that ZUN does use some of the original game background.... that Alice was a young human girl. She looked around the age between 9 to 13(maybe younger??). So let's just say thing... why did she turn into an adult in such a small amount of time?

Alice just ate her veggies like a good girl should.

Magic veggies.

[haoreos2]

Man, you're all wrong. She's just in the foreground  :V

[Zerviscos]

PS: Btw... I read somewhere (I hope I'm wrong) that ZUN specifically stated 1-5 Touhou is in 'Another Gensokyo', which would mean... All the original Yuuka, Alice, MArisa and Reimu background never really happen in before 6-13 D: Kinda saddening since it definitely proves that Mima will probably never return since she was an original villian, unlike Yuuka or Alice. (Yuuka didn't do much really, Alice was only just trying to protect her mother/Master)

All I know is ZUN said that the PC-98 games is something like it did happen, but he would totally make it irrelevant since he would make a whole new set of series to port onto Windows. It's not really alternate universe, but rather he's still taking some elements of plot his older games to his newer ones. I mean, look at how Yuuka and Alice still recall Reimu...

Idk... I'm just thinking about something, if we considered that ZUN does use some of the original game background.... that Alice was a young human girl. She looked around the age between 9 to 13(maybe younger??). So let's just say thing... why did she turn into an adult in such a small amount of time?

I'm just guessing here since I don't quite know. But didn't the grimoire made her yokai because of intense magic she got from it? So the basic conclusion is that she became a yokai and became older because of the grimoire/magic.

Just thinking of the classic fantasy... a demon's true form is it's most powerful level, since it is it's origin. Like Vampires, illusionary demons etc etc...

We're not here on classic fantasy tales. Remember this is fiction, don't every imply other fantasies to other fantasies, especially from other time periods. ZUN's making most of what he can, plus it's rather random if you asked me..

.What if Alice's true form is actually hidden within the Grimoire, that is MS-Alice? Since technically all demons take a long time to develop into adult forms... so why would a young girl become a young adult in such a short amount of time? Physically I think it's a bit impossible... so since we know cannonically that Alice holds back because she's a coward and side with tactic strategy when attacking, maybe because she's afraid of losing control or something else...

Let's not rather get to very bold conclusions of demons just yet. We don't know much about PC-98 games, and the fact we're relying on other facts we find over the internet and theories of ourselves. As I said the most basic conclusion is "magic". Which is not entirely impossible for her to get older.

We all should know that Alice became a magician(yokai) 'cause of the grimoire, and an entirely different league from Marisa which she is still human who only learned the hard way.

Last thing, as I said before. PC-98 to Windows game has it's plot connections, but not entirely. I think I remember ZUN saying that he wants to separate(not entirely) the PC-98 versions, and revision the Windows versions. Remember Touhou project became inactive for 4 years right after Mystic Square...he must've thought through a lot about it.

[Tengukami]

Executive summary: because magic. You'll find this applies to much about Gensokyo.

[Drake]

I'm just saying none of the enemies in (maybe with the exception of 1?)  had real good reason to be 'the villian' kind of like recent enemies but like how Utshio is. A Person who intentionally wants to hurt the people who attack. Remilia just wanted to walk outside with more easy (not particularly caring of the consequences) like every other 'boss'-like character. They were just doing their own thing with no real intentional harm towards others. Yuuka in 4 wanted to pass the time, Shiki wanted to make a traveling business (which could be fatal seeing how demons could eat humans in the outside world). Original(/Classic, if you want to say) Villain a who does an incident in a way to hurt or gain vengeances.

The intentions of the antagonist has absolutely nothing to do with the substance of their character. When ZUN began the Windows games and started actually creating a coherent world, the series developed a particular trait in that basically nobody is a villain. Intentionally wanting to hurt the people who attack no longer makes you a villain, it just makes you a more mischievous or violent character. The "villains" of the series are simply people who create odd situations, and that includes both Utsuho and Mima. Utsuho's "I want to bathe Gensokyo in the fires of hell" gig was initially surprising but it meant nothing in the end. She didn't actually want to do that at all. You can even see how utterly harmless Mima is during the PC98 series, as after SoEW she just turns into a docile annoyance to Reimu. Her character profile even states she forgot why she wanted revenge on humanity. It's all just a big joke.

Mima had reason to be a villain and maybe one of the reason she probable will never come back. That or Reimu put her soul to sleep :\.

For the above reasons, this doesn't make any sense. Even if Mima "had reason to be a villain" it doesn't somehow mean that she won't come back, and I'm not sure why you'd think that.

Also... it is stated that demon take a long time to develop, however illusionary existence does make it all possible.

But what I meant by 'True form' is that with magical beings... unlike humans, ever creature shows itself on how it desires to do so, but we don't see their real form... if you ever read/Watch/play any type of story that had an enemy, magical ally... there is always more than one form, and isn't the core form the honest raw power of a creatures existences?

I asked you where this is stated. You don't get to just bring in whatever story-telling tactics and beliefs about whatever mythologies you find and arbitrarily apply them to Gensokyo. As far as I know, there isn't anywhere in Touhou lore that makes these sorts of wishy-washy ambiguous statements.

Though since when has Reimu, like ALice, been afraid of losing? Reimu doesn't particularly care about winning or losing, she doesn't even work hard at it since she's naturally talented. Only reason she fights is because she has to stop the incident or if she gains something out of the incident (Like showed in UFO).

You're ignoring the important part: They're afraid of losing at their best. Neither Reimu nor Alice ever fight without restraint. Reimu's laid-back attitude to fighting and training is a testament to this, as well as Alice's preference to have dolls fight for her.

[Tiamat]

Perfect Memento claims Alice was a human that turns into a youkai. The narrator of Dolls in Pseudo Paradise (presumably the blonde girl) states that she lost her humanity and stopped being human.

Perfect Memento states that Alice looks like a doll.  Dolls in Pseudo Paradise presumably refers to the honest men (which includes the blonde girl (the dolls)) in Gensokyo (Paradise).

Perfect Memento describes Alice's house as a Western House in the forest of magic.  The honest men come to take shelter in what's specifically stated to be a western house in the forest of magic.

Hanging comes into play at least twice in Dolls in Pseudo Paradise (IE, hanged dolls, given that the dolls in "Dolls in Pseudo Paradise" represents the honest men).  Hanged dolls are also a feature of some of Alice's spell cards and her lose portrait in the fighting games.

The Blonde Girl kills one of the honest men by nailing him to a tree, presumably through means of voodoo dolls, considering that the man was indoors when it happens.  Meanwhile, Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red gives us THIS official artwork.

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/File:BAiJRAlice1.JPG




Oddly enough, every time I bring this stuff up, I almost never get any replies or commentary about it. Maybe it's just not as interesting as my "Maribel became Yukari" statements or something.

There's a whole bunch of other "stretch" evidence too, like how the girl on the cover dresses almost exactly like Alice, or how the girl in Dolls in Pseudo Paradise wanted to go back to the days of thievery (and Alice hangs around with Marisa a lot). Or the tea time (Alice is shown to be serving tea in tons of works, although admittingly so is Sakuya, but the chances of Sakuya being involved are pretty  nonexistant), or the fact that the honest men have a foreign Shanghai party (Alice in her spell cards always refers to many foreign countries of the outside world, to the point where Marisa points it out in Grimoire of Marisa).  But those things could of course be coincidences.


As in regards to the whole "Shiki POSSIBLY created Alice" thing, well, canon or not, ZUN says we can ignore the PC-98 series.  So ignore it I shall!  ....that said, if I were forced to acknowledge it, I'll just say "Well, Dolls in Pseudo Paradise ended with the blonde girl EXITTING paradise, right? Maybe she was going to Makai."

[Zil]

We all should know that Alice became a magician(yokai) 'cause of the grimoire, and an entirely different league from Marisa which she is still human who only learned the hard way.

No. Not only does the article say nothing about the grimoire, but it specifically says that she became a magician through training, implying that it was not an instant transformation caused by some artifact or other.

And since I suspect that some people are under a misconception, I'll just point out that Alice was already a youkai in Mystic Square. She did not change between then and PCB.

[haoreos2]

words

It was Rumia, who is Alice's twin sister. Both wanted to become youkai, Alice took the magician route, Rumia took the violent route.
As a result of her actions, someone sealed away her power in an amulet ribbon. Since the sisters correlate colour to power, Rumia started dressing up in black and white to signify her sudden weaksauceitude.
Part of the amulet's punishing properties also forces her to splay her limbs like the voodoo dolls she used.

[Starxsword]

Though since when has Reimu, like ALice, been afraid of losing? Reimu doesn't particularly care about winning or losing, she doesn't even work hard at it since she's naturally talented. Only reason she fights is because she has to stop the incident or if she gains something out of the incident (Like showed in UFO).

It is in Alice's profile. Argh, they really need to add Reimu, Alice, Yuuka, and Marisa to both post Windows games and pre-windows games in the wiki character's page.
I once again missed it, because I was looking at PCB, Alice's first appearance in the Windows games.

In either case, here is Alice's PCB profile: http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Alice_Margatroid
A specific quote relevant to Reimu:

That's because she thinks it would be the end of the rope for her if she lost with full power. In this aspect, her personality is somewhat similar to Reimu.

[Raikaria]

Last I checked, Alice was Shinki's daughter so her being human is completely out of the question.

Shinki states that everything in Makai is her creation.

Which implies she created Alice.

Maybe not biological motherhood, or motherhood in the usual sense, but Shinki still 'created' Alice.

Also, I'm pretty sure Youkai assume adult forms quickly, reaching maturity early, and then have extended lives. With the exception of Vampires, who don't age visibly. If that's the case, the explains why Alice, upon becoming a Youkai, aged dramatically.

Also timeflow in Makai might be different to Gensokyo. Let's say time in Makai flows slower then Gensokyo, so 1 Makai year = 10 Gensokyo years. 1 year in Gensokyo would be like 10 for Alice and her body.

[Zerviscos]

Again all of us are pretty much screwed and confused. All of us are not sure, and all of us has doubts since this is the PC-98 era.

But what we have is the most basic fact that Alice, canonically  was human, and DID became a yokai between Mystic Square and Perfect Cherry Blossom.

No. Not only does the article say nothing about the grimoire, but it specifically says that she became a magician through training, implying that it was not an instant transformation caused by some artifact or other.

But the she learned from the grimiore, and exposed herself to high levels of magic for her to learn. So yes, she is like Marisa, but she learned in a less intense way.

And since I suspect that some people are under a misconception, I'll just point out that Alice was already a youkai in Mystic Square. She did not change between then and PCB.

We can't say that for sure she didn't change during Mystic Square, and has high probability she was human during the times of Mystic Square, until to the point of Extra stage, which is her second encounter that she did became Yokai..

Shinki states that everything in Makai is her creation.

Which implies she created Alice.

Maybe not biological motherhood, or motherhood in the usual sense, but Shinki still 'created' Alice.

Also, I'm pretty sure Youkai assume adult forms quickly, reaching maturity early, and then have extended lives. With the exception of Vampires, who don't age visibly. If that's the case, the explains why Alice, upon becoming a Youkai, aged dramatically.

Also timeflow in Makai might be different to Gensokyo. Let's say time in Makai flows slower then Gensokyo, so 1 Makai year = 10 Gensokyo years. 1 year in Gensokyo would be like 10 for Alice and her body.

So what? There's no further evidence to what this follows. As what this says...

Perfect Memento claims Alice was a human that turns into a youkai. The narrator of Dolls in Pseudo Paradise (presumably the blonde girl) states that she lost her humanity and stopped being human.

Perfect Memento states that Alice looks like a doll.  Dolls in Pseudo Paradise presumably refers to the honest men (which includes the blonde girl (the dolls)) in Gensokyo (Paradise).

Perfect Memento describes Alice's house as a Western House in the forest of magic.  The honest men come to take shelter in what's specifically stated to be a western house in the forest of magic.

Hanging comes into play at least twice in Dolls in Pseudo Paradise (IE, hanged dolls, given that the dolls in "Dolls in Pseudo Paradise" represents the honest men).  Hanged dolls are also a feature of some of Alice's spell cards and her lose portrait in the fighting games.

The Blonde Girl kills one of the honest men by nailing him to a tree, presumably through means of voodoo dolls, considering that the man was indoors when it happens.  Meanwhile, Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red gives us THIS official artwork.

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/File:BAiJRAlice1.JPG




Oddly enough, every time I bring this stuff up, I almost never get any replies or commentary about it. Maybe it's just not as interesting as my "Maribel became Yukari" statements or something.

There's a whole bunch of other "stretch" evidence too, like how the girl on the cover dresses almost exactly like Alice, or how the girl in Dolls in Pseudo Paradise wanted to go back to the days of thievery (and Alice hangs around with Marisa a lot). Or the tea time (Alice is shown to be serving tea in tons of works, although admittingly so is Sakuya, but the chances of Sakuya being involved are pretty  nonexistant), or the fact that the honest men have a foreign Shanghai party (Alice in her spell cards always refers to many foreign countries of the outside world, to the point where Marisa points it out in Grimoire of Marisa).  But those things could of course be coincidences.

Perfect Memento already stated she was human. A confusion fact I got from "teh ensyklawpidea".

Because of Shinki's dialogue in which she mentions that everything in Makai is her creation, it is a popular theory that Alice is Shinki's daughter. However, there's been no further mention of this since then, and Perfect Memento states that Alice was once a human who became a youkai magician. It is unknown whether this is a retroactive change of continuity, merely a mistake by Akyu, or if fans were mistaken from the beginning when thinking Alice was Shinki's daughter.
On a related note, this means the characters Sara, Yuki, Mai, Louise, and even characters from Highly Responsive to Prayers like Elis and Sariel could have been created by Shinki as they too live in Makai. This, of course, includes Yumeko and probably Alice.

A speculation about it has been permitted into a particular doujin Ear House, Grimoire of Alice, Which assumes that Alice has been adopted by Shinki, then turned into a youkai in the Mystic Square Extra Stage. But all this is obviously only speculation.

So in canon, she WAS human.

Two possible theories are:
-Shinki did not only made yokais, but made Alice uniquely human. There's no official word she can or cannot make a human being.

-Shinki adopted Alice before times of Mystic Square.

This is all fan speculations. Until no word from ZUN. We have no say in this.
Oh and also this...

As in regards to the whole "Shiki POSSIBLY created Alice" thing, well, canon or not, ZUN says we can ignore the PC-98 series.  So ignore it I shall!  ....that said, if I were forced to acknowledge it, I'll just say "Well, Dolls in Pseudo Paradise ended with the blonde girl EXITTING paradise, right? Maybe she was going to Makai."

[Tengukami]

Again all of us are pretty much screwed and confused. All of us are not sure, and all of us has doubts since this is the PC-98 era.

Speak for yourself, pal. All the endless fanwank boils down to is: Alice was human, magic made her not human.

As for the "Shinki's daughter" thing, come on. This is a semantical stretch that relies on wordplay to make any sense. Even people who believe in a creator god - you know, like Shinki, a deity who created everything - would not go so far as to say "God is my literal, biological father". That's nonsense. Shinki may be Alice's "mother" in the spiritual sense of the word, but Alice is not Shinki's daughter in any meaningful, biological sense.

[OkashiiKisei]

Speak for yourself, pal. All the endless fanwank boils down to is: Alice was human, magic made her not human.

As for the "Shinki's daughter" thing, come on. This is a semantical stretch that relies on wordplay to make any sense. Even people who believe in a creator god - you know, like Shinki, a deity who created everything - would not go so far as to say "God is my literal, biological father". That's nonsense. Shinki may be Alice's "mother" in the spiritual sense of the word, but Alice is not Shinki's daughter in any meaningful, biological sense.

It's kinda like calling humans as a species the 'Children of God', I guess. It's Alice calling herself a demon in a badass way.

Spoiler:

I still like the 'Shinki is Alice's biological mother' thing though. Or just motherly Shinki in general.

[haoreos2]

Also, I'm pretty sure Youkai assume adult forms quickly, reaching maturity early, and then have extended lives. With the exception of Vampires, who don't age visibly.

Rumia, Mystia, and especially Tewi (who's been a kid for at least a thousand years) would disagree.

Heck, even Yukari has the body of a child the age of Reimu or Marisa in most games and manga.

[Tengukami]

It's kinda like calling humans as a species the 'Children of God', I guess. It's Alice calling herself a demon in a badass way.

Spoiler:

I still like the 'Shinki is Alice's biological mother' thing though. Or just motherly Shinki in general.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, it's an attractive theory. And I love fanwank as much as the next Touhou fan. It just cracks me up when the resident philosophers here stroke their beards and bloviate at length to come up with a very complicated explanation for that which has a very simple cause.

Also,

Spoiler:

the entirety of Gensokyo is just a dream Akyuu is having <--- CANON!

[Zerviscos]

Speak for yourself, pal. All the endless fanwank boils down to is: Alice was human, magic made her not human.

I'm not really that much of a fan of Alice in any way. I just find it interesting to note on how I would look up to this stuff, what making her human or yokai.

As for the "Shinki's daughter" thing, come on. This is a semantical stretch that relies on wordplay to make any sense. Even people who believe in a creator god - you know, like Shinki, a deity who created everything - would not go so far as to say "God is my literal, biological father". That's nonsense. Shinki may be Alice's "mother" in the spiritual sense of the word, but Alice is not Shinki's daughter in any meaningful, biological sense.

I know, I don't know how would that even came up. It's practically weird in a sense.

Also,

Spoiler:

the entirety of Gensokyo is just a dream Akyuu is having <--- CANON!

Lol, as same as Reimu having Gensokyo's as her dream wonderland in fanon due to PC-98 comparison.

[Zil]

We can't say that for sure she didn't change during Mystic Square, and has high probability she was human during the times of Mystic Square, until to the point of Extra stage, which is her second encounter that she did became Yokai..

Nope. She most definitely was already a youkai in MS, and had already been one for an unspecified amount of time. In stage 3 she even says, "A human like you coming here means that you're prepared to to face us, right!?" If she were human herself, I doubt she'd say something like that. And again, the Grimoire has nothing to do with it. As far as I can tell it has never been mentioned anywhere outside the the Extra Stage. (Perhaps you could point to whatever official source it is that implies otherwise?)

Shinki states that everything in Makai is her creation.

Which implies she created Alice.

And by that logic she must not only have created herself, but Reimu, Marisa, Mima, and Yuuka as well.

Okay I've had enough of this thread.

[Starxsword]

She most definitely was already a youkai in MS, and had already been one for an unspecified amount of time. In stage 3 she even says, "A human like you coming here means that you're prepared to to face us, right!?" If she were human herself, I doubt she'd say something like that.

Youmu is a half human and she refers to others as humans in PCB. It really depends on where you are and since Alice is in Makai, it would make sense for her to refer to humans as humans.

[Raikaria]

Rumia, Mystia, and especially Tewi (who's been a kid for at least a thousand years) would disagree.

Heck, even Yukari has the body of a child the age of Reimu or Marisa in most games and manga.

Rumia is canonically sealed by her ribbon. The exact reasoning is for fan interpretation, but the seal could be why she looks so young.

Mystcia is a bird so shouldn't look like a human youkai anyway. Why would a bird have curves? She certainly dosen't look like a kid either. Same logic applies to Wriggle, she's an insect.

Tewi is the only one with any reasoning, and she doesn't look *that* young in IN. Bear in mind she is also a rabbit.

And by that logic she must not only have created herself, but Reimu, Marisa, Mima, and Yuuka as well.

That's a straw man and you know it. The protagonists invaded Makai during the incident, so obviously are not included, and Shinki obviously isn't included as well, through common sense. Using that as an argument is pretty pointless.

There is absolutely nothing stopping Shinki from having created Alice as a human anyway. I never said otherwise.

Bear in mind ZUN had to 're-create' Alice, since during the PC-98 era, he was bound by contract to Amusement Makers, and the PC-98 versions of the characters were effectively their property. This is also why ZUN had to re-create Reimu between MS and EoSD.