Author Topic: Are fairies really that weak?  (Read 16464 times)

Power

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Are fairies really that weak?
« on: February 22, 2012, 11:04:33 AM »
Are they really that weak?  I know you might be thinking "Of coarse their weak they're those random normal enemies you shoot down in regular touhou games."  Then there's the Great Fairy War.  Without the freeze feature it would easily be the most hardest touhou game.  So why are they so freaking strong in just that game?   ???  My theory is that yes fairies are the weakest yokai in gensoukyo BUT only because their strength is tied to their environment.   That means they are only as strong as how much nature there is around them.  Notice how every stage in Great Fairy War is tied to nature in some way.  It could also could mean that Cirno could be the strongest fairy since she has the ability to create her own nature environment through her freezing power.   :o  That is the only way for her to increase her power.  There is a theory that Yuuka is a fairy and it would also explain why Yuuka loves flowers so much.   It could be that she somehow learned how to harness her own natural magic instead of relying on her environment while she was a fairy.  There's also the possible that SHE STILL IS A FAIRY because of how defensive she is about her flower field and why she has it.  It is a secondary source of power that she feeds off to get the enormous power she has in gensoukyo.  So also going by that theory fairies have the potential to become the strongest yokai in all of gensoukyo if they learned how to increase their natural magical powers while creating an environment that grows their power.  It is scary thinking about it since if this is true it could possible mean that they could create an army of Yuukas to destroy everything in gensoukyo.  Still most fairies are harmless and have a thinking of a 5 year old.  :3  I would say that is the only reason why nobody takes fairies seriously because they just play around.  Sure the Great Fairy Wars was just fun and games but it wasn't seriously.  If this theory is true it could mean the potential to become a new touhou games where your battling fairies on steroids because their sick of being the weakest in gensoukyo.  Then again this is all theory it could all be wrong.   ::)

What do you guys think?  Is this just some crappy theory or does it actually mean something?   Let me know through comments on what you guys think of it.   :D

Pesco

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Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2012, 11:17:27 AM »
GFW's difficulty is explained by the fact that you're playing as a fairy.

Don't turn this thread into a power level discussion. It's in the rules.

Power

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Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2012, 11:20:12 AM »
Don't worry it's not a power level discussion.  Just throwing out a theory is all. 

Zil

Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2012, 11:59:51 AM »
Yeah, you're viewing the danmaku from Cirno's perspective so everything looks tougher than it really is. The idea that stage fairies aren't going all out does make some sense however.

Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2012, 12:04:39 PM »
Alternative explanations:
The relativistic approach (I.E. the already-mentioned one): the fairies in that game seem so impressive because you play as one of them: notice how Marisa in that game is so much tougher than her IN appearance, despite using spellcards like Master Spark Flashlight.

Fridge Brilliance/Fan Wank: since fairies auto-ressurect, they aren't holding back like when they face humans or mortal youkai.

The meta approach: the pattern complexity is so high because Cirno can freeze bullets; patterns that would normally be too difficult or impossible to reasonably be included in the other games can easily be thrown in because the new mechanic makes it possible.


By the way, what's with the Yuuka theory anyway? I keep hearing it mentioned but never explained. From what I gather, the idea seems to be "Yuuka likes flowers, therefore is a nature spirit, therefore fairy". Surely there's more to it than that?

Power

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Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2012, 12:05:29 PM »
huh never knew that though.  Yeah I really need to switch to the english translation of Great Fairy Wars.  So that would mean that she really is weak.   :3  Oh well forgot that I guess. 

Darth_Sirov

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Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2012, 12:09:44 PM »
At least in many perspective, technically, Cirno is the strongest fairy around, unless somebody were to upstage her...

That of which, I wonder how would playing as Cirno work against others like Reimu and such, like how Marisa got buffed (adding that she's the EX-boss there).

Power

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Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2012, 12:11:19 PM »
Yuuka really is an interesting character.   Very sadistic but never really explained why she is sadistic.  Everyone has theories that she could be a fairy but I find her personality more interesting.  Why is she sadistic?  Was she raised that way?  Did somebody hurt her so bad that she has to feel like the one hurting someone even if they weren't serious?  Are all yokai like this?  I would rather see people explain something like this then the fairy thing. 

Pesco

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Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2012, 12:13:35 PM »
Yuuka has a lame power so fanboys attribute a whole bunch of other things that exaggerate her to justify themsleves liking her :V

Zil

Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2012, 12:17:53 PM »
That of which, I wonder how would playing as Cirno work against others like Reimu and such, like how Marisa got buffed (adding that she's the EX-boss there).
Cirno vs. Parasol Star Memories. That would be interesting.

Or better yet, what would Cirno be like from Cirno's perspective?

And I'm pretty sure Yuuka's sadism is all fandom.

Pesco

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Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2012, 12:19:51 PM »
Or better yet, what would Cirno be like from Cirno's perspective?

Brain freeze from trying to imagine Cirno arguing with herself about who is stronger :ohdear:

Power

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Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2012, 12:20:29 PM »
Ahhhh I see now it's the flowers thing.  I don't know the fanbase does love to exaggerate things a lot.   Like the China thing, or the Yukari is an old hag, and maybe Maribel is Yukari in disguise.   It is a lame power I know that but I'm guessing she trains herself hard to make up for it.  It would explain a lot of things.    :3

Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2012, 12:38:13 PM »
Why would they try to talk up a character who is canonically stated (albiet by a somewhat unreliable, in-universe source) to be one of the stronger peeps around, despite the uselessness of her ability in combat, by saying she's a fairy of all things? o.O
That's like saying my car is the fastest thing on four wheels because it's actually a bicycle with custom chasis and leather seats.

Brain freeze from trying to imagine Cirno arguing with herself about who is stronger :ohdear:

Who would win in a fight between Cirno.1 and Cirno.2?
Spoiler:
The audience! ...Actually, I wonder if Cirno can perfect-freeze bullets that are already made of ice
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 12:43:31 PM by haoreos2 »

Power

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Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2012, 12:43:47 PM »
Well sadly her power is really lame.  I mean you have fate manipulation, miracle powers, gap powers, time manipulation, and lots of other powers.  I mean all these people that have these powers are pretty strong in their own right.  Yuuka seems more like an curve ball to me.  Very unusually but very powerful in it's own right.   It's more like her power's so lame that she has to be the weakest type of yokai before.  Kind of makes it more impressive given her strength. 

Power

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Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2012, 12:49:49 PM »
About that fight thing they would both lose.  It would still be an awesome battle in a way from Cirno since it would be a will of freezing bullets.  It would look epic from Cirno's point of view but would be very laughable from Ruimu's point of view.   :3

Darth_Sirov

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Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2012, 01:01:59 PM »
Somehow, I seem to recall that picture with Satori and Cirno, where Satori was checking what is Cirno thinking and latter was thinking of herself, thinking of herself, thinking of herself...

Zil

Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2012, 01:06:25 PM »
Spoiler:
The audience! ...Actually, I wonder if Cirno can perfect-freeze bullets that are already made of ice
She's freezing her own bullets in Perfect Freeze, so guess that means she's freezing ice, and she does it in PoFV too. That's some kind of awesome right there.
It's more like her power's so lame that she has to be the weakest type of yokai before.  Kind of makes it more impressive given her strength. 
Her boss subtitle is actually the same as that of Orange, the stage 1 boss, which I think is slightly interesting. She's also apparantly one of the oldest Youkai in gensokyo.

Power

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Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2012, 01:09:29 PM »
Yeah really should have done a Yuuka would have been more interesting.  Well my theory's been destroyed.   :blush:  Anyways where's the evidence for she's the oldest yokai in Gensouyko again?

Pesco

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Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2012, 01:26:57 PM »
Tewi's age between 1300 and 1.3 million. Youkai age isn't that much of a factor if you compare her with who's really older.

Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2012, 01:32:09 PM »
It's mentioned a few times in her PMiSS article, IIRC. Not THE oldest, mind you, just unusually old.

As for Yuuka's power being lame, It's true that it doesn't have much use in combat, but then neither does treasure-finding or medicine making. If the character herself is interesting enough to stand on her own, special abilities aren't that important; most fans would still like Remilia even if her power was 'ability to the extent of using diet statistic analogies', for example.


Unrelated, but: the idea of a Cirno vs Cirno freeze-off and freezing her own ice reminds me about a book I read with two hypnotists that could freeze time. They would each freeze time in layers and stop themselves getting frozen by the other's freeze, but each time they would get colder, so it was essentially a battle of wills. Then the weaker hypnotist astrally projects herself into the arctic, reasoning ice wouldn't be bothered by the cold, and starts spammin' some time freezes to victory.

Power

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Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2012, 01:38:32 PM »
Yes a freeze off.  That would be so awesome on so many levels.  Somebody needs to make a doujin or video about it.  It would be so epic.  Weird how nobody at niconico posted it.  Sure would be a battle on epic scales.  I could see strategy coming in.   If Cirno 1 shoots danmaku then Cirno 2 would freeze it.  Then again Cirno 2 could also do the same.  What if they saved up perfect freeze on the right time?  Or what happens if they both use Perfect Freeze at the SAME TIME.   :o

Helepolis

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Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2012, 02:56:09 PM »
Touhou Tag team battle Doujin comes into my mind on danbooru. Afaik it also featured Cirno. Forgot artist name, but searching for it in the pool might show it (Note: it is not dream tag battle [wrestle])

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Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2012, 02:56:41 PM »
Like I said in the other thread, I believe the Yuuka = fairy idea is based on her PMiSS article saying "She's more like a manifestation of nature rather than a flower youkai," and fairies are the local manifestations of nature, are they not?  Her sadism tendencies...well, she's a huge troll who loves to fight, so they just took that and cranked it to eleven. 

Also, multiple Cirnos perfect freezing at once?  I get the image of an iceberg full of stuck Cirnos just floating in the Misty Lake...
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Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2012, 03:41:12 PM »
I don't know about you all, but regarding Yuuka's ability, if The Batman version (the one running from 2004 to 2008) of Poison Ivy taught me anything, it's that flowers and other kinds of plants can be really dangerous if you make them do what you want them to do...  This is assuming that Yuuka's ability works the same.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 03:46:43 AM by game2011 »

Pesco

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Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2012, 04:02:41 PM »
While Yuuka could do the same as Poison Ivy, her strength isn't reliant on that.

Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2012, 05:37:58 PM »
Touhou Tag team battle Doujin comes into my mind on danbooru. Afaik it also featured Cirno. Forgot artist name, but searching for it in the pool might show it (Note: it is not dream tag battle [wrestle])

The artists name is Kiku Hitomoji.
Here's the link of the doujin : http://danbooru.donmai.us/pool/show/1167

Tengukami

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Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2012, 06:12:37 PM »
I like to think of most fairies as forces of the natural world that possess no ego, but manifest as barely physical blips of pure Mutha Nature. The exceptions, like Cirno et al, were flukes who managed to develop into what they are by pure chance.

Also, Yuuka reminds me of one of those little dudes in high school who talk a big game with little to back it up.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2012, 07:08:12 PM »
Also, Yuuka reminds me of one of those little dudes in high school who talk a big game with little to back it up.
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Power

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Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2012, 07:29:59 PM »
Like I said fairies are made by their environment which is nature.  The reason they are not aggressive is because they are not threatened at all by anything really.   Really makes me think what If fairies actually do feel threatened at all?   I mean they seem to be the most happiest yokai in gensoukyo.  Cirno's theme reflect that as it just seems to be upbeat tune throughout her theme.  I'm not even sure if fairies come from nature at all due to them being too lax.  If that's true then where do other yokai come from at all?  Then again that's for another thread.

As for Yuuka I'm pretty sure she's strong otherwise we're left with a tsundere yuuka or a meek yuuka both of which feels weird.  I mean we already have Alice for that so I'm good with this sadistic version of Yuuka. 

Re: Are fairies really that weak?
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2012, 08:10:45 PM »
Judging by Oriental Sacred Place, most fairies run like hell while screaming like little girls whenever they feel threatened. Presumably their attacks on Reimu and Marisa in the games are mostly them trying to play pranks (although most extra stages typically have the story or dialogue describe the fairies as "going wild" etc etc). After all, also judging by Oriental Sacred Place, the attitude of most fairies seems to be "prank first, worry about punishment later" (though they at least have enough self-preservation to try to not get caught while pranking).

Perfect Memento explicitly states that Yuuka's really REALLY strong, and explicitly states that Yuuka's strength has nothing to do with her ability to control flowers (and, by logic, vice-versa).

I always took the whole "force of nature" sentence to basically mean that Yuuka will attack without discussion or reason.  In essence, trying to talk your way out of a battle with Yuuka is like trying to talk your way out of battle with an incoming tornado.  Although apparently you're allowed to watch from the sidelines if she's in a battle with someone else.

Although Perfect Memento describes it very seriously, from Yuuka's perspective, she's really just playing around and teasing people according to Phantasmagoria of Flower View. Fandom took her whole genocide comments and remarks from the pre-windows games and assumed she was serious about that. But ZUN explicitly stated in the now-defunct Gensokyo bulletin board that comments such as that were akin to pro-wrestling comments (IE, meant to make things look all flashy and serious and deadly when it really... well, isn't).  Really, nearly ALL Touhou characters talk in very serious tones but obviously aren't actually killing each other (Remilia calilng Reimu a serial killer for killing Sakuya in EoSD, for example, despite how Sakuya's obviously still alive, and the myriad of youkai bosses saying they're going to eat you when in truth, everyone knows they're not actually allowed to eat Gensokyo residents)

...despite that, Shikieiki still thinks Yuuka takes things too far, but whatever.

Come to think about it, as to WHY she's like that... well, hilariously enough, one of the endings to Yuuka's debut game Lotus Land Story has
Spoiler:
Marisa wondering what deep thoughtful insightful reason or background Yuuka had for attacking the shrine, and it then pans to Yuuka saying she just had nothing else to do.
  Given Momiji's background about old youkai running out of ways to pass the time, I'm going to guess that Yuuka's the way she is simply because she's lived so long that she has nothing else to do. Maybe that's why Shikeiki tells her she's lived too long.

Back on topic, presumably most of Fairy War's difficulty can be chalked up to being from Cirno's perspective. Marisa even explicitly states before and after the battle that she's holding back a lot, despite her being an EX boss in that game (and a very difficult one, at that!). Although she does at least akcnowledge that Cirno turned out to be stronger than she thought CIrno would be.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 08:19:05 PM by Tiamat »